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Looks like ADW is starting another KS in July. I'm kinda iffy about new companies that start a KS soon after their first one, and have enough miniatures as it is. I didn't like a few things about their presentation during their KS, I couldn't find enough information about the people behind the project to back the project, but I've been wrong before.

ADW Games and Game Designer Andrea Sfiligoi announce that they are bringing “Band of Gnomes”, a non-lethal miniature skirmish game full of fast-paced trickery, illusion, summoning, entrapment, odd magic, queer terrain, golems and elementals, to Kickstarter on July 21, 2014.

Rules for “Band of Gnomes” are being written by Andrea Sfiligoi, the Award-winning game designer behind Songs of Blades and Heroes, Of Gods And Mortals and Fistful of Kung Fu.

“We have chosen this as out next project because it is unique in format and does not compete with anything on the market,” says S.E. Lantry, the primary writer for ADW Games. “Plus, we have a lot of cool, surprising expansions already mapped out.”

Band of Gnomes will be set in ADW’s fantasy version of Doggerland, based on the lost landmass in the North Sea that joined Great Britain and Europe, during and after the last Ice Age.

Band of Gnomes will include rules for Ice Age Mammals miniatures in the Band of Gnomes Core Rule Book. The Core Set will include two Gnome factions, The Lighted Forest and The UnderMountain, and will include rules for terrain and Band of Gnomes battlemap-based games (Terrain and Battlemaps sold separately).

Tabletop Gaming: http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2014/07/09/91178/

MIght want to contact one of the sculptors for the Ice Age campaign for their thoughts on ACW. I wrote to AS and he said he's not being paid upfront for his work, but from royalties et al. from the KS etc.

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55637-15mm-gnomes/page-2#entry913786

As I understand it, one of the sculptors for the Ice Age Miniatures got stiffed by ACW, and ACW may be a scam. I've asked the sculptor to post on Dakka about this.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Fenris Games did the same for Cthulhu Wars, paying for the sculpting up front with Green Eye Games who ran the KS paying them off once the KS money came in

Yeah, but I wouldn't compare GEG with ADW (or whoever the heck they are). Sandy Petersen *isn't* an established gaming company like CMON, but their KS campaigns and behavior during them didn't make me suspicious like ADW's did. Again, see the Reaper link I posted for more details.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Which has no info other than that the sculptor who did work for them before, doesn't do work for them now?

Whoopie Fething Doo.

Contact the sculptor directly. He doesn't work for them because he did sculpts for them for the Ice Age KS and was not paid for his work.

And. as RiTides and Trodax suggest, there're a few other behaviors on ADW's part that may be concerning. Such as, can you tell me how much actual miniatures project experience the ADW team has? Or who's even on their staff? No, the game designer and sculptors don't count.

Myself, I don't differentiate between a scammer and someone who incompetently runs a project and doesn't deliver satisfactory product. You lose your money either way.

And when it's my money that can get involved, I certainly give a fething doo! $$$

(Oh, and it probably doesn't help that stuff like this, Defiance Games, etc. doesn't help the category of small miniatures companies using KS.)

I wrote directly to both the Fairy Tales KS and Doggerland KS creators. With Fairy Tales, I asked how they could offer so much for so little, and he said their investors were taking a loss on the project. I think had I had more interest in the project, I would have pressed him to tell me more about these investors and what their post-KS business plan was. With Doggerland, I asked a few questions and suggested they should show off their rules. The reply was that they thought someone would steal their IP. If any of you are on BGG, you already know we've had several discussions about this sort of statement. She also said she was unaware of any KS that showed off the rules during their campaigns, and I know of at least one that did (one of the dungeon-themed dice games had *two* PnP games). Again, I would have shown her KS that did this, but I wasn't interested in a 15mm game, so didn't write back. Obviously, this response wasn't the only thing that made me hesitant to back the project.

My error about the designers and sculptors. I mean to say that if a designer or sculptor is not part of the management team of a project, their name is not part of my decision to back a crowdfunded project. Contracted sculptors and game designers often do work before getting paid, and can get the short end of a crowdfunded project. See: Doom that Came to Atlantic City and Ice Age Miniatures.

Finally, if you miss out on a terrific fantastic can't-miss must-have bargain on KS, another terrific fantastic can't-miss must-have bargain will be available soon enough. Any idea what I can do with 69 28mm doors?

These ADW train wrecks just keep going!

Latest update has them switching from Sculpey to Castilene.

Slendertroll from the Reaper boards:

This again speaks to their overconfidence, in my opinion. Their original sculpts were in Sculpey, based on what they claim was "poor advice." First of all, to my knowledge, lots of sculptors and casters work with Sculpey, so I'm curious about that claim. Regardless, it seems like bad news that they just now discovered that this medium wasn't suitable for their needs--why didn't they do that research ahead of time?

They also still don't seem to be sure what their products are--Sculpey is commonly used because it holds the fine details needed for boutique miniatures, which they claim they are making. However, Castilene is apparently commonly used in toy prototyping, and I've never heard of a professional mini sculptor using it. Is this just another case of conflating toys and minis, or have they gone back to making children's toys, which they have periodically claimed these were? Is the process they describe as "toy prototyping" equivalent to mini sculpting? I wouldn't think so, but is that just unfamiliarity with the terminology on either of our parts?

Lastly, how can they possibly still be on schedule? It took them a month at least to build up that collection of (pretty quality) Sculpey minis--can they afford to lose that much time in their production schedule, will they have more sculptors working on them, or will they be rushing the new minis?

Frankly, at this point, I will be annoyed if everything works out perfectly for them. I'll feel bad for the backers if it doesn't, but it would frustrate me to no end if their behavior, both here and in their own comment section, was rewarded.

And here's the current Sea Monsters KickTraq chart...

 Alex C wrote:
So, despite this KS being nowhere near funding and unlikely to fund, they will still have the capability to send freebies to backers?

Many first-time KS projects are losses. Even on Reaper's 3.4M Bones I, they made only 50K of "profit", which went directly back into the company (eg. for the injection mold machine).

The only other project I could find from ADW is its Evergreen Entertainment / Aquaplus alias reality show proposal for musicians. A KickStarter realilty show?

For anyone who enjoys popcorn, the Reaper boards are doing a little searching on ADW past projects (book publishing, furniture, acting, and a reality show...).

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/56389-adw-28mm-miniature-sea-monsters-dungeon-terrain-and-big-beasts/?p=946717

Glad to see the thread viewable again. It's not *that* uncivil, certainly better behaved than BGG and Dakka!

No luck finding info on Scott Lantry, since it's a common name and I didn't look *that* hard. Did he or ADW ever explain why they went into miniatures? Scott's postings seemed to say they selected miniatures less because the usual desire to see one of their creations in existence than because they though sculpting and casting miniatures was a simple task. Given their range of previous artistic projects (not that know how well they did with them) surely they could have done a KS in something they already knew. Certainly something like making a 28mm battlemap would be easier than miniatures, given (assuming?) their background in graphic design, although their lack of concept art in the sea monsters KS may be showing otherwise.

And did Lars ever reveal his last name? I though either he or Scott was Dina Andrew's husband. They and the fired part-timer all seem to behave the similarly -- more confident in the project than knowledgeable in it and/or defensive towards their backers and internet community.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.

Well, as a boardgamer, I asked for them to show their rules during their first KS. Here's the response I got:

"Re: rules. I can't think of one KS that has provided rules before printing. I think we have addressed "why" we do not release everything before the first manufacturing run in a previous comment-post, as well. It is just a dog-eat-dog world regarding IP of this sort. The vet on this one is about the art and the world. If you believe in our story, we will deliver. If you want to see the rules, we have a podcast from our designer launching tomorrow. It is always world-first and rules second with us. There are a lot of games out there that try to impress with new mechanics and have no new ideas. That is not our category."

 Alex C wrote:
I'd be very wary about handing over personal information to these people.

Ya know anything that we don't?

Because I do -- or rather, pinmini, their previous sculptor, on the Reaper forum does!

EDIT: jchunick said on the DF forums that he asked for a refund for his IAM pledge and hasn't received a reply. But what does *this* mean for Up Front?

Here's pinmini's profile on Reaper. Best to contact him directly: http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/user/13404-pinmini/

He was one of the original sculptors on the IAM project, and says he wasn't paid for his work, so he still has the sculpts -- which would explain why ADW isn't or wasn't showing the current IAM sculpts.

 Cyporiean wrote:

Very early WIP sculpts can look like total gak, and often should not be presented to the public.

Well, no one's forcing them to start a KS unprepared. Or a second KS unprepared. Or a third... Or a fourth...!

Lars is their head sculptor, so I guess that's whom they're referring to as "in house".

EDIT: WHOOPS! Forgot that they referred to these "in house" sculptors before Lars was brought on. Carry on!

These people make GameZone look good!

 Trodax wrote:
No, it doesn't quite add up. Lars seems to be doing the sculpting now, but what they've said is that he was brought onboard at a later date to try to make things run more smoothly

Yeah, that's what they said.

Did we ever find out Lars' last name or sculpting background? All I've found out is that he works regularly as an engineer. His behavior earlier towards backers was very similar to the part-timer, imo.

No points if you already know who'd tell you that Lars may or may not be Lars!

I don't think it's a scam. If you look at their previous activities, they've been in book publishing, furniture design, reality shows, acting... not exactly overlapping areas of expertise. Their attitude towards making miniatures as "trivial" and calling them "toys" show me that they don't know what they're doing before they do it. Dilettantish dabblers, if you will. They certainly have the spirit of entrepreneurship, but you need more than that to run a successful business.

I don't think KS needs to vet for scams, because it's not the scams which cause backers to be upset, it's mismanaged expectations and inability to satisfactorily manage a project. KS is not a store, except everyone treats it like one.

Well, I just backed the "formerly known as MegaMiniatures" KS, so I guess there are projects from established companies (or at least casters!) that are certainly projects that wouldn't have been made without backer support (the guy is semi-retired from miniature making, but wants to put out these specific mini's).

From seeing the Zombicide 3 KS, it's apparent to me that new backers are coming to KS all the time. Meanwhile, if someone is unwilling or unable to do a something as simple as a search on a creator or read the hard work others are willing to do for them, it's "out of the gene pool" time. I mean, someone posted a video rant quitting KS because of the Palladium project, which means he somehow missed Palladium's history and/or convinced himself that Ninja Division would be in charge (yeah, like Kevin Siembda would let that happen). No sure what to make of experienced backers funding the ADW folks.

Only irritation I have with KS are the "potato salad" backers, who fund a project fully or reasonably knowing that their funding only encourages projects like these to exist, when more deserving projects (or, gasp, charities) are out there. Of course, some people think our want for more man-dollies which will never be painted is a waste of money. Thankfully, I'm single.

With Stonehaven Miniatures, Impact Miniatures, Stonemaier Games, and now MegaMiniatures, I often rekindle my enthusiasm. Then ADW comes along.

So here's Lars' comment ten hours ago about the freelancers from the Sea Monsters KS:

To be precise, the company initially hired several sculptors on contract, and on probationary terms. As reported, these were hires before I came aboard, and they were bad hires. The details (theft, fraud, breach, non-performance) have been outlined previously, and I will not go into those here. Bad hires did cost time, money and some ill-feelings with Pledgers. The company got in new investment and hired afresh, and I am putting more hours into the projects, as Fall/Winter are slower times in my primary industry (marine engineering consulting).
Many decisions were made before I came aboard based on one sculptor/consultant who later turned out to have have been misrepresenting their ability and knowledge to the company to get hired. Again, details have been discussed previously.

My two bits about companies and managing projects is that it's the manager's responsibility to hire the right employees. Sure, Kevin Siembda's employee stole 1M of assets from Palladium, but he was Kevin's hire and Kevin's close friend. Employees are a reflection of your company, and are the first contact your customers have with it. I see pros and cons of managers who have technical expertise in their fields, but I certainly see a pro in that a manager who has expertise can test applicants for knowledge in the field. Before Lars, ADW did not have such management expertise so did not hire the right people. Alternately, ADW *thought* they knew what they were doing, and the right people could not work with *them*. Considering how many wrong hires ADW had before Lars, I think this is the case. One bad hire is a mistake, several is a pattern. One question I had with the Robotech KS was "how the !@#$@ could Harmony Gold let Palladium keep the gaming rights to Robotech?" This led me to do some searching on Harmony Gold, and I had a pretty good answer. Fans of Robotech are upset with Harmony Gold as well. If great minds think alike, similar management styles end up in the same company. So that would explain how Lars behavior on the ADW KS is so similar to that of DAW or whoever else was answering the comments. (Of course, the other explanation is that he's the same person.)

It may be more than $17, but I'll throw my $30 at the KS of the guy who owned MegaMiniatures. He's only one guy, he knows how to run a miniatures project, he makes his own miniature molds, he casts them, too -- and I think his project is well within the spirit of crowdfunding.

Wouldn't be surprised if ADW pulled a Gridiron or had a few close "supporters".

I can't find the discussion. Do you mean the Comments field? Do you think it was just deleted? Maybe ADW is treading this thread, after all!

Awesome job!

I redigested the info and did a little additional searching, then posted the results on the Reaper forums, where we're doing some tracking down as well. Thanks for finally helping me find out who this Lars person is!!!

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/56389-adw-28mm-miniature-sea-monsters-dungeon-terrain-and-big-beasts/?p=949242

EDIT: Most important part is this article linking No Island Media to Dina Walker and Lars Sunderflyrr: http://www.mi2n.com/press.php3?press_nb=89017

Hey, RiTides, mebbe you should contact Jeremy Goldkorn on Danwei.org and say hi!

Nah. The creators weren't sure how often they should post updates in the Updates messages, vs. the Comments, a common problem in KS. Post too often in the Updates, and some backers get upset. Post info in the Comments, and the other backers get upset. Jerks.

So ADW puts up a blog. I actually think that's a good idea, although it does put control in ADW's hands. (KS Commens and Updates cannot be deleted, or something like that.) I do think ADW is trying to put out good miniatures.

I don't think they'll succeed, but they're trying.

"Moving forward, no one from ADW will be answering this comment board."

Okay, ignore what I previously said.

More refund info from BGG: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/976236/would-doing-charge-back-risk-our-kickstarter-accou

Oh, and read the "Yes, but what does THIS mean for Up Front?" thread on the Up Front forum, the same forum where that thread is from. Bring popcorn.

xraytango wrote:
So what is with people who think they can pull this stuff?

If you look through the restored Reaper thread, you'll read Lars' comments that he thinks sculpting miniatures is an easy project.

The barrier to making metal and some resin miniatures *is* low, just a few hundred dollars for molds and supplies. However, *making* a miniature and sculpting one that people will buy are two different things.

Entrepreneurs need confidence to overcome obstacles that would stop other people, but sometimes this leads to overconfidence. Hoo boy does it.

  Not Goblini but Kevin Rau wrote:
Don't pledge on Kickstarters any longer, it's that simple.

That throws away too much baby with the bathwater, IMO.

Not only have I found some really good deals on KS (eg. Zombicide Season 2, Reaper Bones I and II), but I've found miniature projects that I'd never even think existed (Impact Miniature's Big Lebowski miniatures). *BOTH* retail and KS projects get delayed. The big difference is that, with KS, you hand over your money sooner, so have more of an emotional stake in the project. Retail also has the advantage of "try before you buy", but you can't always do this (and a FLGS certainly won't let me try a bottle of hobby paint before buying it!). And, for some non-KS purchases and investments, you *DO* want perform as much research as possible, which is what you do with a KS project. I certainly agree that delays are to be expected, so if you want your man-dollies NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW, then, yeah, KS isn't for you. OTOH, If your painting queue is as long as mine, the mini's are still gonna arrive sooner than you have time to paint them!

Anyway, here to point out that, thanks to Google reverse image lookup, I've found two artists who were working on the ADW Doggerland KS:
* Jean-Philippe Marcotte, Concept Artist: http://www.lefauveillustration.com/portfolio/#prettyPhoto (see the illustration with the turtle on the bottom row)
* Ricardo Rambarran, Digital Sculptor: http://jragon.carbonmade.com/projects/5220625#1

RR lives in MONTREAL, the same city as No Island Media, one of ADW's former incarnations, and JPM lives in Quebec, where Montreal is located.

EDIT: Proper attribution. Whoops!

 Gymnogyps wrote:
"Trust, but verify"

Well, I half agree with you on that one.

Anyway, speaking of Andreas, I know his name attracted some backers, but another guideline I use for KS is "ignore the designer". The Doom that Came to Atlantic City is the best example. The designers themselves weren't involved with the project, and were also caught unawares when the creator said there was no money left and the game wouldn't be produced (there was plenty of money for the creator to try to start his own game business, of course). A minor brouhaha on BoardGameGeek was the designer's discussion of the game before it was KS'ed. BGG'ers assumed the bits that he discussed would be in the game before SG's, and were unhappy that the SG's "put parts of the game back in the box".

 inquisitorlewis wrote:
Do you think they would be pissed if I contacted the original sculptor, and bought the sculpt? Maybe run a kickstarter of my own.

Can you really run a KS? Because I know pinmini on the Reaper forums sculpted gnomes that I'm guessing were originally for the ADW Band of Gnomes project, and has the Ice Age miniature animals.

Pinmini would have to have his contract reviewed by a lawyer to confirm that he owns the sculpts. Nobody owns the IP on ice age mammals, of course.

These pics remind me of resumes. The more inexperienced the person, the more stuff they put on their resume...

 Goblini wrote:
Somebody should create Kickstarter fail blog.

http://kickfailure.com/

I don't see ADW there, so drop the blog owner a line!

Is this the 2006 No Island Media non-payment to the Chinese film documentary company, or the 2009 Food for Thought scam?

http://www.b-roll.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24207
http://www.danwei.org/film/scam_alert_no_island_media_rip.php

Or is it another scam??

Reaper has a more strict policy on forum behavior, which is basically, "Be Nice". However, this sort of policy does not work when investigating companies for scams, because such investigations usually start out as unsubstantiated negative comments.

I find the Reaper forums excellent for leads on miniature KS, but Dakka's where I go if I want information to actually part with my money.

And a belated hello to the Reaper and Dwarven Forge posters! (: