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 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Fenris Games did the same for Cthulhu Wars, paying for the sculpting up front with Green Eye Games who ran the KS paying them off once the KS money came in

Yeah, but I wouldn't compare GEG with ADW (or whoever the heck they are). Sandy Petersen *isn't* an established gaming company like CMON, but their KS campaigns and behavior during them didn't make me suspicious like ADW's did. Again, see the Reaper link I posted for more details.

ced1106 wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Fenris Games did the same for Cthulhu Wars, paying for the sculpting up front with Green Eye Games who ran the KS paying them off once the KS money came in

Yeah, but I wouldn't compare GEG with ADW (or whoever the heck they are). Sandy Petersen *isn't* an established gaming company like CMON, but their KS campaigns and behavior during them didn't make me suspicious like ADW's did. Again, see the Reaper link I posted for more details.

You mean this link?

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55637-15mm-gnomes/page-2#entry913786

Which has no info other than that the sculptor who did work for them before, doesn't do work for them now?

Whoopie Fething Doo.

 Cyporiean wrote:
You mean this link?

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55637-15mm-gnomes/page-2#entry913786

Which has no info other than that the sculptor who did work for them before, doesn't do work for them now?

Whoopie Fething Doo.

There were also these two threads concerning the Ice Age Mammals KS, I don't know if that was what ced1106 meant to refer to. The first one got locked down and was heavily moderated and purged, though, so I'm not sure how much information it still contains.

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55236-kickstarter-miniature-ice-age-mammal-adventure-set/
http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55475-ice-age-miniatures-kickstarter/

I was highly skeptical of the Ice Age Mammals campaign when it was running, and I was really scratching my head at this ADW company. Since this discussion took place on the Reaper forums, the project creator seemed to think the critique was coming from a well established company who didn't want an upstart competitor to succeed (Reaper were in no way involved, other than stepping in to moderate that thread when it got out of hand). It was a strange discussion.

Hmm, I don't really have time to look into all that at the moment... but regardless, backing a SECOND campaign from this company less than a month after their first campaign ended? Wayyyyy too risky.

I still can't believe the prices listed here. The top pledge level is "Any 110 minis you want" for $500. What if someone selected 110 mammoths? They seriously can sell those for less than $5 each?

So far, I have yet to be scammed on Kickstarter (someone intentionally taking my money and not delivering) or even really been a part of anything that hasn't delivered or is in the process of delivering most of what they set out to do. But part of that is not backing campaigns that get in way over their heads... and promising massive models for under $5 is what I would call doing just that. No matter their intentions, that just sounds way too good to be true! Even as a loss leader.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Which has no info other than that the sculptor who did work for them before, doesn't do work for them now?

Whoopie Fething Doo.

Contact the sculptor directly. He doesn't work for them because he did sculpts for them for the Ice Age KS and was not paid for his work.

And. as RiTides and Trodax suggest, there're a few other behaviors on ADW's part that may be concerning. Such as, can you tell me how much actual miniatures project experience the ADW team has? Or who's even on their staff? No, the game designer and sculptors don't count.

Myself, I don't differentiate between a scammer and someone who incompetently runs a project and doesn't deliver satisfactory product. You lose your money either way.

And when it's my money that can get involved, I certainly give a fething doo! $$$

(Oh, and it probably doesn't help that stuff like this, Defiance Games, etc. doesn't help the category of small miniatures companies using KS.)

 RiTides wrote:
and promising massive models for under $5 is what I would call doing just that.

Is this the Mammoth you're talking about?



It honestly doesn't look to be that big... Assuming the mold is made right, and it pours well, casts 100% of the time.. I could see it being under $5 worth of materials for Resin. Now that doesn't factor in labor or profit, but it'd be do able. You'd just need it be do done by someone who doesn't want to factor in those things...

Now there is a lot of bs on the KS page for sure... like the 'we don't use lead' lines, and this gem:



This honestly speaks volumes about their lack of experience in the Tabletop Games industry... while there is a lot of sexism in the Video Games Industry, Tabletop is much much better about it.

Such as, can you tell me how much actual miniatures project experience the ADW team has? Or who's even on their staff? No, the game designer and sculptors don't count.

Which companies can *you* answer those questions about?

In my eyes, it wasn't any worse than that Artistic Justice's Fairy Tale Battle Royale, which for a measly 65 dollars you supposedly got 2000+ cards across 3 or 4 base games PLUS 40 28/35mm scale figures. With shipping included.

Of course we haven't actually seen that fulfilled, but progress does seem to slowly truck on (and they did say during the campaign that the sheer amount of unlocks was going to delay the game a HUGE amount).

We'll see how things go from here. Over the course of the day they've shown off some SUPER early sculpts, yet again not bothering to get a ruler in there. Or even lay one down in the photo.

I think these WIPs are a little too early to unleash on the world...



Hopefully we will see something a bit more substantial as time progresses.

I shall continue to keep Dakka posted on how this all unfolds.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
In my eyes, it wasn't any worse than that Artistic Justice's Fairy Tale Battle Royale, which for a measly 65 dollars you supposedly got 2000+ cards across 3 or 4 base games PLUS 40 28/35mm scale figures. With shipping included.

Of course we haven't actually seen that fulfilled, but progress does seem to slowly truck on (and they did say during the campaign that the sheer amount of unlocks was going to delay the game a HUGE amount).

You know what, you're right about that; I was very skeptical and critical about the Fairy Tales KS when it was running too... and I've got to admit what I've seen so far looks pretty promising. Perhaps the Ice Age Mammals will turn out as a positive surprise as well; please do keep us posted!

I'd still advice against backing a second project started a month after the first one ended, though; that's just inviting grief. Two years ago I foolishly backed the Dwarf Gladiators by Eastern Front Studios started right after they ran Low Life, and a couple of months later they started their Midgard campaign. All three of those projects are still unfulfilled.

I wrote directly to both the Fairy Tales KS and Doggerland KS creators. With Fairy Tales, I asked how they could offer so much for so little, and he said their investors were taking a loss on the project. I think had I had more interest in the project, I would have pressed him to tell me more about these investors and what their post-KS business plan was. With Doggerland, I asked a few questions and suggested they should show off their rules. The reply was that they thought someone would steal their IP. If any of you are on BGG, you already know we've had several discussions about this sort of statement. She also said she was unaware of any KS that showed off the rules during their campaigns, and I know of at least one that did (one of the dungeon-themed dice games had *two* PnP games). Again, I would have shown her KS that did this, but I wasn't interested in a 15mm game, so didn't write back. Obviously, this response wasn't the only thing that made me hesitant to back the project.

My error about the designers and sculptors. I mean to say that if a designer or sculptor is not part of the management team of a project, their name is not part of my decision to back a crowdfunded project. Contracted sculptors and game designers often do work before getting paid, and can get the short end of a crowdfunded project. See: Doom that Came to Atlantic City and Ice Age Miniatures.

Finally, if you miss out on a terrific fantastic can't-miss must-have bargain on KS, another terrific fantastic can't-miss must-have bargain will be available soon enough. Any idea what I can do with 69 28mm doors?

These ADW train wrecks just keep going!

Latest update has them switching from Sculpey to Castilene.

Slendertroll from the Reaper boards:

This again speaks to their overconfidence, in my opinion. Their original sculpts were in Sculpey, based on what they claim was "poor advice." First of all, to my knowledge, lots of sculptors and casters work with Sculpey, so I'm curious about that claim. Regardless, it seems like bad news that they just now discovered that this medium wasn't suitable for their needs--why didn't they do that research ahead of time?

They also still don't seem to be sure what their products are--Sculpey is commonly used because it holds the fine details needed for boutique miniatures, which they claim they are making. However, Castilene is apparently commonly used in toy prototyping, and I've never heard of a professional mini sculptor using it. Is this just another case of conflating toys and minis, or have they gone back to making children's toys, which they have periodically claimed these were? Is the process they describe as "toy prototyping" equivalent to mini sculpting? I wouldn't think so, but is that just unfamiliarity with the terminology on either of our parts?

Lastly, how can they possibly still be on schedule? It took them a month at least to build up that collection of (pretty quality) Sculpey minis--can they afford to lose that much time in their production schedule, will they have more sculptors working on them, or will they be rushing the new minis?

Frankly, at this point, I will be annoyed if everything works out perfectly for them. I'll feel bad for the backers if it doesn't, but it would frustrate me to no end if their behavior, both here and in their own comment section, was rewarded.

And here's the current Sea Monsters KickTraq chart...

ADW train wreck kickstarters are one of my favorite things to look at on kickstarter right now.

There's just so many baffling, facepalming, hilarious moments!

Me too, Alex C. I'm expecting an Amy's Baking Company style meltdown...

I backed the mammals out of curiosity and only at a level that I could afford to spend for that level of entertainment. I was debating writing a response to the update ced1106 posted about, but don't have time.

ETA here's the text of the update:


Off the top of my head, I'm wondering...

- What was it about the miniatures that made them unacceptable?
- Does the 40 - 60 hours of time to cast include all miniatures? Or is that per mini?
- Does the 40 - 60 hours of casting time include process development, such as mold creation, including vent and feed placement, miniature cutting if necessary, and determining resin mix and cure times? How long is it expected that the process development will take?

Like I said, I'd post it just to see how combative, rude, and unprofessional that makes me, but don't have time to watch the meltdown!

If they are now resculpting everything they had done (including the sculpts they had that looked alright), but this time using the sculptor that's been doing their later work, then yeah, this does look like a train wreck. I bet a lot of people pledged for those sculpts they have on the KS main page (the mammoth, cave lion, terror bird; those are alright I think); if they will now be replaced with stuff sculpted like the Sea Bishop I can't see a lot of smiling happening.

And their currently ongoing KS, the Sea Monsters, seems to be in limbo. That's the campaign where they promised to automatically cancel if they didn't manage to produce all the sculpts before it ends. So much drama!

Gymnogyps, thank you for mentioning Amy's Baking Company, I was trying to figure out who Dina from ADW reminded me of and you hit the nail on the head!

And I don't mean that to sound like some sort of anti-women hate-speech, the exclamation point doesn't mean I'm shouting, and the capitalization is for grammatical correctness rather than indicating any sort of anger...

Damn, Amy's Baking Company is the perfect comparison. You hit the nail on the head with that one!

I too am absolutely baffled by everything they have done.

I always thought most mini sculpts were done in Sculpey.

I honestly hope I get something for my money in the end. That ground sloth would look mighty impressive hanging out with all my Darkland Fomorians!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

I always thought most mini sculpts were done in Sculpey.

Kneadatite. (Green Stuff).

Many other materials are also used frequently, such as Pro Create (grey), Sculpey, Brown Milliput, etc

Interesting update on the Sea Monster KS:

Hello All:

I realize during this time of transition in our Company - wherein we are changing sculptors and production methods- we have not been very attentive to this Campaign. We apologize.

We will be giving everyone who has Pledged, more than a single $, a single set of mushroom terrain and a single sea monster of your choice- in either Epic size (20-40') or Monster size (6-9') free of charge in October.

We will keep the KS running so we can run the survey upon completion and know where to send your freebies.

We are on schedule to deliver all of the minis in mid-October, btw. So, if you have Pledged. Never fear. We are on track, just swamped with internal changes at the end of the summer.

All the Best,

Lars

So, despite this KS being nowhere near funding and unlikely to fund, they will still have the capability to send freebies to backers?

I guess right now, if you want any of this stuff, you could pledge and hope it doesn't fund at which point you would be out $0 and get a mini and some scenery.

Seems legit...

A clever ploy- they could get a bunch of us who enjoy watching these things unfold, posting on websites like here, Reaper, and the like...

They may end up getting it funded after all.

I think I've had my fill with the mammal debacle as it stands.

Now that was a strange update...

 Alex C wrote:
So, despite this KS being nowhere near funding and unlikely to fund, they will still have the capability to send freebies to backers?

Many first-time KS projects are losses. Even on Reaper's 3.4M Bones I, they made only 50K of "profit", which went directly back into the company (eg. for the injection mold machine).

The only other project I could find from ADW is its Evergreen Entertainment / Aquaplus alias reality show proposal for musicians. A KickStarter realilty show?

ced1106 wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
So, despite this KS being nowhere near funding and unlikely to fund, they will still have the capability to send freebies to backers?

Many first-time KS projects are losses. Even on Reaper's 3.4M Bones I, they made only 50K of "profit", which went directly back into the company (eg. for the injection mold machine).

The only other project I could find from ADW is its Evergreen Entertainment / Aquaplus alias reality show proposal for musicians. A KickStarter realilty show?

ADW's kickstarters are better than most reality shows I've seen...

Wait...

Are all these project fails actually some sort of reality show?

Feels like I need a Keanu Meme...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a fun comment on Ice Age Mammals:

Quick survey: with our casting pro on-hand now, we have been asked the question: why not tin alloy for the basic eight + the birds?
Thoughts?

Answer: Because pledgers paid for resin?

So they've gone from hand-sculpted minis cast in resin to CAD minis with an eye to using tin.

I'd seriously be asking for a refund if I'd have pledged on this. They're not delivering the product they advertised.


Oh, it keeps getting better. Now they're saying several of the minis shown on the front page were sculpted in the "wrong scale", so Lord knows what you'll end up with if they actually deliver...

This is like one of those gifts that just keeps on giving!

Not only am I going to suck it up and take one for the team, but I'll go the distance, and PAINT whatever bulbous, play doh- like monstrosity they end up sending me!

Take that, Dakka!

Oh, and despite not having the sculpts finished, they're still "on schedule for september".

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I'm still turned off by the cartoony look of these models. If only they went for a more realistic approach...

I prefer the cartoon look over a hyper-realistic look.

For anyone who enjoys popcorn, the Reaper boards are doing a little searching on ADW past projects (book publishing, furniture, acting, and a reality show...).

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/56389-adw-28mm-miniature-sea-monsters-dungeon-terrain-and-big-beasts/?p=946717

Thanks Ced!

Can't believe Sea Monsters funded...

WOW.

I guess my money was well spent for the enjoyment this has brought about.

That Reaper thread is CRAY ZAY.

ADW... DAW... Dina Andrews Walker? Maybe this is all some elaborate Usual Suspects type deal and she's gone all Keyser Soze on us.

I'm starting to imagine this is all some sort of elaborate deomnic trap, that if solved, will send all sorts of nasty creatures after us for digging to deep into their rabbit hole.

Tread carefully...

I honestly can't believe that people are backing the Sea Monsters. It started out with the premise "sure, we are starting a new campaign while our previous Ice Age Mammals KS ending just two months ago are still undelivered, but here's the thing: if we haven't produced all the sculpts before this one ends, we promise to automatically cancel." But then they had a falling out with the sculptors, and so changed the whole thing to a freebie bonanza instead, under the banner "We are building the company by giving away miniatures". As I see it, they pretty much already did that with the Ice Age Mammals; I think it funded pretty much because of all the freebies they threw in (which they still have not delivered, or even sculpted). I've got to wonder, If they start another campaign with "freebies galore!" in two months, will people still be jumping on it?

If I'm reading things right, a $15 pledge now gets you 10 pieces of furniture, 10 big fungus minis, 3 giant crabs, 2 giant slugs, a giant waterbug and some maggots. What is it they say, if a deal sounds too good to be true... But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they actually have a big successful company behind this that can afford to pump money into the project in order to build goodwill. Maybe they will deliver all these fantastic miniatures into the hands of some very pleased backers. Maybe the whole gaming community has up until now been ripped off by miniature companies, because "it really isn't that expensive to produce these toys". Maybe I'm Cthulhu.

I guess the sculpting has improved slightly compared to the lumps of clay we've previously seen, I'll give them that; at least there is some kind of rudimentary form to the porcine whale and whatnot that's up on the main page.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh, I see now that the original Ice Age Mammals thread on the Reaper forum is again publicly viewable. Rereading it, it actually wasn't as bad as I had remembered, but they did display their arrogance pretty openly. I started getting skeptical about the whole KS on page 2 of that thread, and the Doggerland person (some guy named Scott) entered the discussion on page 4:

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55475-ice-age-miniatures-kickstarter/

Also, if you want to see arrogant talk, go to the FAQ section at the bottom of the Ice Age Mammals KS main page. Reading through that makes me question my sanity when I'm at the same time staring at some of the sculpts they later displayed. Here's a little tidbit to whet your appetite:

So, yes. We respect our product We respect our work. We choose to aim high and stand behind our aim. And, boxes, rule cards, concept art, postcards, character sheets, they should all reflect a certain standard. We are mad. About quality and not letting adult, mature gamers down.

If you are looking for barely servicable, cheap, 7th generation replicas of used-up ideas, this is not the miniature line for you. We respect the intelligence of people that like to Play Fair and include play as part of their emotionally mature and creatively expanded lives. We are here to provide entertainment for that audience.

Glad to see the thread viewable again. It's not *that* uncivil, certainly better behaved than BGG and Dakka!

No luck finding info on Scott Lantry, since it's a common name and I didn't look *that* hard. Did he or ADW ever explain why they went into miniatures? Scott's postings seemed to say they selected miniatures less because the usual desire to see one of their creations in existence than because they though sculpting and casting miniatures was a simple task. Given their range of previous artistic projects (not that know how well they did with them) surely they could have done a KS in something they already knew. Certainly something like making a 28mm battlemap would be easier than miniatures, given (assuming?) their background in graphic design, although their lack of concept art in the sea monsters KS may be showing otherwise.

And did Lars ever reveal his last name? I though either he or Scott was Dina Andrew's husband. They and the fired part-timer all seem to behave the similarly -- more confident in the project than knowledgeable in it and/or defensive towards their backers and internet community.

I'd be very wary about handing over personal information to these people.

Tread carefully friends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're now trying to say that all the bad press is from established miniature companies bashing them because they are scared of the competition ADW brings...

To my knowledge, no miniatures company has taken any stance toward them, good or bad. Am I wrong?