[Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars

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**agnosto**

Alex C wrote:
They're now trying to say that all the bad press is from established miniature companies bashing them because they are scared of the competition ADW brings...

To my knowledge, no miniatures company has taken any stance toward them, good or bad. Am I wrong?

Possibly due to the Reaper threads? It's like people getting on here and saying "dakka" this and "dakka" that. Somehow anyone who posts on a message board suddenly becomes a mouthpiece for the entire community/company.

**Nostromodamus**

Yes, but to my knowledge nobody that works for Reaper ever made any comment, right?

Unless they think every forum member is a Reaper employee, which I can't say would really surprise me considering how little they seem to know about the gaming world...

**agnosto**

Alex C wrote:
Yes, but to my knowledge nobody that works for Reaper ever made any comment, right?

Unless they think every forum member is a Reaper employee, which I can't say would really surprise me considering how little they seem to know about the gaming world...

I would think that they are aware of it, the same as people who post here and make the same general, sweeping statements about "dakka." It sounds a lot better to say the industry is against you than saying, "A few forum posters don't like us."

**Zywus**

It's quite bewildering that people keeps funding the kickstarters from these people.

It looks quite obvious that they are in way over their heads (if not completely looking to scam people outright).

Even if one disregards their their very questionable, aggressive and arrogant communication the whole premise of having a kickstarter in the first place seems inconsistent.

If the whole kickstarter model for them is just a big loss leader with tons of freebies and just made to get their name out there while the actual financial backing comes from other sources, why not produce the models and sell them at a initial artificially low price?

It's already obvious that they will not be able to back up their lofty claim from their first kickstarter and they just keep piling on freebies to new campaigns while still not really showing any progress.

EDIT:

Also it seems any critisism are met with some delusional rants about misogyny in gaming culture that have nothing to do with the actual issue at hand. While said misogyny might well be a real issue in gaming culture, the criticism against this company certainly have very little to do with the fact that some of it's representatives are women. They sure seems to have a rather warped view of their customers and think every other miniature company is out to get them due to sexism or something.

**Nostromodamus**

Lars wrote:While your comments and the comments on the various boards certainly fit into the current zeitgeist of harassing "outsiders", it will not effect our ability and commitment to produce intelligent and interesting miniatures.

Lars wrote:I have not read a single post on any board. As mentioned, I am focused on solutions and deadlines, John.

So if he has not read any post on any board, how can he comment on what those posts reflect?

**agnosto**

Alex C wrote:

So if he has not read any post on any board, how can he comment on what those posts reflect?

Magic?

**highlord tamburlaine**

I mentioned in the comments about seeing the work they've got.

Lars says people are telling him adamantly not to show anything off.

Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.

Odd.

**Nostromodamus**

I took it as him basically lying to try to provide a reason why they cannot show the product they do not have.

They are still waiting on the "wax" to "fix" the miniatures before they show them.

So no completed product, but it is "still on schedule".

Right...

**ced1106**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.

Well, as a boardgamer, I asked for them to show their rules during their first KS. Here's the response I got:

"Re: rules. I can't think of one KS that has provided rules before printing. I think we have addressed "why" we do not release everything before the first manufacturing run in a previous comment-post, as well. It is just a dog-eat-dog world regarding IP of this sort. The vet on this one is about the art and the world. If you believe in our story, we will deliver. If you want to see the rules, we have a podcast from our designer launching tomorrow. It is always world-first and rules second with us. There are a lot of games out there that try to impress with new mechanics and have no new ideas. That is not our category."

Alex C wrote:
I'd be very wary about handing over personal information to these people.

Ya know anything that we don't?

Because I do -- or rather, pinmini, their previous sculptor, on the Reaper forum does!

EDIT: jchunick said on the DF forums that he asked for a refund for his IAM pledge and hasn't received a reply. But what does *this* mean for Up Front?

**Nostromodamus**

I know nothing!

/Manuel

**Cyporiean**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I mentioned in the comments about seeing the work they've got.
Lars says people are telling him adamantly not to show anything off.
Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.
Odd.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...

Spoiler:

Very early WIP sculpts can look like total gak, and often should not be presented to the public.

Of course, by now, they should have a final sculpt or three that would be presentable.

**Lockark**

ced1106 wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.

Well, as a boardgamer, I asked for them to show their rules during their first KS. Here's the response I got:

"Re: rules. I can't think of one KS that has provided rules before printing. I think we have addressed "why" we do not release everything before the first manufacturing run in a previous comment-post, as well. It is just a dog-eat-dog world regarding IP of this sort. The vet on this one is about the art and the world. If you believe in our story, we will deliver. If you want to see the rules, we have a podcast from our designer launching tomorrow. It is always world-first and rules second with us. There are a lot of games out there that try to impress with new mechanics and have no new ideas. That is not our category."

Alex C wrote:
I'd be very wary about handing over personal information to these people.

Ya know anything that we don't?

Because I do -- or rather, pinmini, their previous sculptor, on the Reaper forum does!

EDIT: jchunick said on the DF forums that he asked for a refund for his IAM pledge and hasn't received a reply. But what does *this* mean for Up Front?

What exactly happened between pin mini and them anyway?

**Zywus**

Cyporiean wrote:
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I mentioned in the comments about seeing the work they've got.
Lars says people are telling him adamantly not to show anything off.
Does that strike anyone else as odd? You'd think they would want to show things off, be proud of their work, not keep it shrouded in secrecy.
Odd.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...

Spoiler:

Very early WIP sculpts can look like total gak, and often should not be presented to the public.

Of course, by now, they should have a final sculpt or three that would be presentable.

As long as one can show some finished products that look good, and preferably a series of WIP pictures leading up to that finished sculpt, there shouldn't be much of a problem since then people can see that while early WIPs looks crude, they do morph into good end results. Right?

**highlord tamburlaine**

Story goes pin mini did all those early sculpts shown off at the beginning of this project, but was not paid for his work.

I believe they did the gnomes as well.

**ced1106**

Here's pinmini's profile on Reaper. Best to contact him directly: http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/user/13404-pinmini/

He was one of the original sculptors on the IAM project, and says he wasn't paid for his work, so he still has the sculpts -- which would explain why ADW isn't or wasn't showing the current IAM sculpts.

Cyporiean wrote:

Very early WIP sculpts can look like total gak, and often should not be presented to the public.

Well, no one's forcing them to start a KS unprepared. Or a second KS unprepared. Or a third... Or a fourth...!

**Zywus**

ced1106 wrote:
Here's pinmini's profile on Reaper. Best to contact him directly: http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/user/13404-pinmini/

He was one of the original sculptors on the IAM project, and says he wasn't paid for his work, so he still has the sculpts -- which would explain why ADW isn't or wasn't showing the current IAM sculpts.

I guess it would also explain why everything they have shown after those original pictures looks like it has been sculpted by a bunch of kindergarten kids.

EDIT:
Actually if that is the case I'm leaning more towards these projects being actual scams rather than just being incompetently run.

Hire a sculptor to produce some actual good sculpts that entice people to back. Wet their appetite wiht promises of loads of cheap/free stuff. Mash out a few half assed sculpts to string people along enough that they back another project that does not have any quality stuff to tease people (Sea creatures KS), say they are WIP's and hope people believe that they will end up the same quality as the first sculpts.

**highlord tamburlaine**

Someone ought to talk pinmini into running a KS for his sculpts.

Can you imagine the fireworks that would fly if that ever happened?

I'm not sure there'd be enough popcorn for a show like that!

**Lockark**

So basicly all that talk about having all their artists "in house" was bullgak? Who the heck are these mythical employees and well treated artists the founders keep talking about then?!?!?!??!

Who are these sculptors they don't give a name to?

I haven't seen a company lie threw it's teeth this much since Defiance games and their failed Kickstarter.

I never even backed this project and I'm outraged by these goons.

I agree with zywuz, this has to have been a scam from the start. They have been double talking and trying to swindle the community from the start. Why else would they be lieing so much, and so combative to words people?

**ced1106**

Lars is their head sculptor, so I guess that's whom they're referring to as "in house".

EDIT: WHOOPS! Forgot that they referred to these "in house" sculptors before Lars was brought on. Carry on!

These people make GameZone look good!

**Trodax**

Oh wow. More drama in the comment section I see. They're really playing up the part as this fresh newcomer, who the big, corrupted companies in the miniature industry are trying really hard to stop, aren't they?

ced1106 wrote:
Lars is their head sculptor, so I guess that's whom they're referring to as "in house".

No, it doesn't quite add up. Lars seems to be doing the sculpting now, but what they've said is that he was brought onboard at a later date to try to make things run more smoothly (this was after the Ice Age Mammals KS had ended, after some "part-timer" had been a little too aggressive towards a backer's concerns). And what we were told last week was that they now have to redo the sculpting on that KS, because they were "gamed by their freelance sculptors who they had hired online". Basically, they seem to be blaming the failure of the sculpts on these freelancers ("some of the sculpts were in the wrong scale, some were just really bad"). However, when that KS was running (i.e. before Lars), my impression was that they were really boastful of their in-house expertise. For example, this text about why they're doing everything in-house is from the FAQ section of the IAM KS (emphasis mine):

Why do you employ a sculptor full-time? And, what "dirty underbelly" of the miniature manufacturing world are you talking about?

We emply a full-time sculptor, and have transitioned our 3D team to hands-on sculpting. We did this because artist-owned companies maintain the highest artistic standards. There is no more creative force in the world then half a dozen artists trying to outdo the one next to them in friendly, creative competition.

Think Impressionist, Bauhaus, Cubism, Black Mountain College, the Beats, Southern California 70s film culture, the Ashcan school, Abstract Expressionism. etc. etc. etc.

Think early Dragon magazine! Or Dorothy Parker and the Vicious Circle.

Most of us, we, have standards we look up to, and after all this time the world has been making great strides in literature, art, computer, movies, social reform and tabletop gaming, we think it is time to push a little past the expected, and past the easy money made peddling bad product to good people.

So, yes: we invest in employees.

We do not work with freelancers, because they get paid once and their work is gone to them forever. We are still trying to figure that one out. Plus, the development time and communication between team memebers makes ADW a palce where ideas can come together very quickly.

We may work with artists on a specialized limited line in the future, but we will do so under a co-op, or profit sharing model, with open books.

Which touches on another reason small companies, like ADW, or individuals should worry about manufacturers. Remember those stories from the record companies in the 50s-80s where artist could not keep their masters, or their publishing rights?

There are few mini manufacturers that will own the master mould that he/she creates based on an artist's miniature sculpt. So, they have artist and small businesses over a barrel. In any business, there are people that violate basic business ethics. Lots of stories in the world and that is not one we want to particpate with, so be aware before dealiing with any of the big guys out there. They are not all above board and artist-friendly.

Business plan here: we have the best spin-casting equipment and we have a solid, proven sculptor and sculpting team that know how to produce world-class results.

We may set up a side business to help emerging sculptors. Something pro-artist. Where they keep the Masters. Stay tuned for that. And, let us know what you want our artists to think about as we move forward. We are here to provide unrivalled quality and we are here to entertain.

So, basically, they started out boasting of in-house expertise, but when people started complaining about the sculpts they turned around and said it was due to hiring some bad freelance sculptors, which had now been corrected. Of course, because of these unfortunate circumstances, they won't have time to have the sculpts ready before the Sea Monster KS ends tomorrow...

**Nostromodamus**

I know they said they have a Mythological Creatures KS planned for later this year, but I would be surprised if anyone heard any more from them after Sea Monsters ends. Things are heating up and it seems like an opportune time for them to take their money and run.

I'm still kinda hoping that there's a massive number of pledge trolls that pull their pledge right before it ends and takes the total beneath funding...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks like Lars is fishing for personal info again by promising free toys. He's already done it with another backer, and of course there's the "even if it doesn't fund you'll get free stuff" promise that they made.

"Hey [insert name here], you're cool, I want to give you freebies! Now, if I could just take a few details..."

**Necros**

This all reminds me of the Mandlebaum drama from a few months back. Have they posted any photos of parrots by any chance?

**Zywus**

Alex C wrote:
I know they said they have a Mythological Creatures KS planned for later this year, but I would be surprised if anyone heard any more from them after Sea Monsters ends. Things are heating up and it seems like an opportune time for them to take their money and run."

Yea, it's such a weird behavior from them I can't really decide if it's a pure scam or if they are just incompetent and delusional.

Their bizarre and aggressive behavior must have turned quite a number of people away and if they were just scamming shouldn't it be better to have as non confrontational approach as possible?

**ced1106**

Trodax wrote:
No, it doesn't quite add up. Lars seems to be doing the sculpting now, but what they've said is that he was brought onboard at a later date to try to make things run more smoothly

Yeah, that's what they said.

Did we ever find out Lars' last name or sculpting background? All I've found out is that he works regularly as an engineer. His behavior earlier towards backers was very similar to the part-timer, imo.

No points if you already know who'd tell you that Lars may or may not be Lars!

**Trodax**

Ha, I was actually just thinking that these latest comments by Lars ("the big companies are out to get us") are very similar in tone and style to the stuff put down by the guy posting under the Doggerland name in this thread on the Reaper forum (he said his name was Scott Lantry):

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55475-ice-age-miniatures-kickstarter/

And yeah, I've also been feeling a bit skeptical about that "part-timer who went out of line but is no longer with us"... seems to be pretty much the same aggressively defensive stance. Could we in fact be dealing with a one-man operation?

**fullheadofhair**

Are we sure that this doesn't come out of Texas and someone per chance called Daniel is involved. This has all the hallmarks of a scam - from changing story to persecution complex.

Seriously though - this is exactly why I don't back KS unless it is from an already established company. Yes, I get that it isn't the purpose of KS etc - but there are now far too many bad run/ fraudulently run campaigns that I don't really bother.

Reaper 4 is going to be my next one.

**Zywus**

This Lars guy seems rather insistent on doing communications over thr phone rather than in the comments section of the Sea Monster KS

Also, as stated, I am an engineer, not really used to internet communications. So, there is the chance that what you read is not at all how I mean to sound. So: I am open to the more traditional phone call, if you wish to discuss anything about this project.

Will
I have invited you to call me. I am happy to discuss any subject.
Best
Lars

which seems rather backwards, since posting answers in the comments section reaches any backer that may have the same questions and worries.

Is this behavior something that's reminiscent of the infamous Mandelbaum?I never knew about those sordid affairs until they were over.

**inquisitorlewis**

I have the feeling that the digging has just begun on this so called company. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to find out that this is a single person who has found a great new way to scam gamers.

**gunslingerpro**

I see this going down hill. Fast.

**plastictrees**

"We do not work with freelancers, because they get paid once and their work is gone to them forever."

I don' t know what the second part of this sentence is meant to mean.
It also seems to conflict with their heroic stance against the artist crushing 'big guys' (which is a hilarious term to use in the world of miniature gaming).

It strikes me that they realised that freelance artists would have to be paid, whereas if they just push some putty around themselves they can save all that money for maintaining their artist commune...which may or may not be one person.