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Okay. So I've read all over this forum and others that Chaos in 7th is terrible with the helldrake nerf. You guys aren't thinking through all the possibilities. CSM Suppliments are AMAZING in 7th. Run Black Legion with Crimson slaughter allies and you can do this Grossness I've listed below.

Black Legion Daemon Prince
(These are are manditory to run right)

Mastery level 3, Spell familiar, Last Memory artifact.
Add whatever else you want. I recommend wings, armor, skull of Ker'geth(eternal warrior), spineshiver( You get +1 initiative daemon weapon that is AP2 cause monsterous creature)
Level 4 Daemon Psycher with rerolls. Your Welcome

2 BL HQ

Socerer
Level 3,

Enjoy your additional warp charges

Spend next to nothing on troops. You will be summoning daemons out the but. Bring cultists

Ally Crimson Slaughter

HQ Sorcerer

Level 3, Spell familiar, Prophet of the Voices (LOLZ IMA DAEMON!)
Level 3 psycher who no longer brain burns while summoning daemon with fail casts rerolls. Perils on ones are hard to do.

Bring 3rd cultists for troops.

Really whatever else you want., your opponent is going to hate you.

Should note that taking Black Legion Primary and Crimson Slaughter in an ally detachment is not legal per the 7ed rulebook. You could take them as two Combined Arms detachments though, but a lot of folks are not allowing that in their tournaments and thus their day to day gaming.

So it really depends on how you and your opponents, play group or TO rules allies and multiple detachments, etc.

You do know that a real summoning list will destroy you, right? Y'know, since they have 36+D6 summoning dice after all. I actually think a Thousand Sons list can get more Warp Charges. Arhiman is brutal since he can cast Psychic Shriek 3 times.

I think the best bet for CSM is to take Belakor and put Invis on a unit of Spawn w/ Juggerlord (or something similar). I think more Maulerfiends is good too.

Also, a Sanctic spam GK army is gonna have a field day. Just sayin.

Lucarikx

Is there something I missed? How does a Sorceror at ML3 generate 4 warp charges?

 winterman wrote:
Should note that taking Black Legion Primary and Crimson Slaughter in an ally detachment is not legal per the 7ed rulebook. You could take them as two Combined Arms detachments though, but a lot of folks are not allowing that in their tournaments and thus their day to day gaming.

So it really depends on how you and your opponents, play group or TO rules allies and multiple detachments, etc.

Regardless. Run them individually with a secondary level 4 psycher. Buffing their psycher. Summon horrors and heralds. More warp charges.

thats a bunch of hard to peril warp charges on turn one before summoning daemons. CSM now 1 on 1 has the best psychers in the game. A level 4 psycher that you spent next to nothing on. Terrible.

 jifel wrote:
Is there something I missed? How does a Sorceror at ML3 generate 4 warp charges?

Sorry. Misinterperetation readings. My bad. I've embarrised myself on the internet. Whoops.

 Lucarikx wrote:
You do know that a real summoning list will destroy you, right? Y'know, since they have 36+D6 summoning dice after all. I actually think a Thousand Sons list can get more Warp Charges. Arhiman is brutal since he can cast Psychic Shriek 3 times.

I think the best bet for CSM is to take Belakor and put Invis on a unit of Spawn w/ Juggerlord (or something similar). I think more Maulerfiends is good too.

Also, a Sanctic spam GK army is gonna have a field day. Just sayin.

Lucarikx

Agreed. Specifically designed lists will beat this list. You can talor a list to deal with anything. I'm talking in terms of general strategy. Not competitive. Not to face specific lists. There are a lot of players that think the heldrake nerf killed chaos. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

Serg Rush wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Should note that taking Black Legion Primary and Crimson Slaughter in an ally detachment is not legal per the 7ed rulebook. You could take them as two Combined Arms detachments though, but a lot of folks are not allowing that in their tournaments and thus their day to day gaming.

So it really depends on how you and your opponents, play group or TO rules allies and multiple detachments, etc.

Regardless. Run them individually with a secondary level 4 psycher. Buffing their psycher. Summon horrors and heralds. More warp charges.

thats 8-9 warp charges on turn one before summoning daemons. CSM now 1 on 1 has the best psychers in the game. A level 4 psycher that you spent next to nothing on. Terrible.

 jifel wrote:
Is there something I missed? How does a Sorceror at ML3 generate 4 warp charges?

How spell familiar works now. Instead of reroll leadership. You get an additional warp charge.

 Lucarikx wrote:
You do know that a real summoning list will destroy you, right? Y'know, since they have 36+D6 summoning dice after all. I actually think a Thousand Sons list can get more Warp Charges. Arhiman is brutal since he can cast Psychic Shriek 3 times.

I think the best bet for CSM is to take Belakor and put Invis on a unit of Spawn w/ Juggerlord (or something similar). I think more Maulerfiends is good too.

Also, a Sanctic spam GK army is gonna have a field day. Just sayin.

Lucarikx

Agreed. Specifically designed lists will beat this list. You can talor a list to deal with anything. I'm talking in terms of general strategy. Not competitive. Not to face specific lists. There are a lot of players that think the heldrake nerf killed chaos. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

Citation?

Serg Rush wrote:

How spell familiar works now. Instead of reroll leadership. You get an additional warp charge.

Familiars are unchanged.

Yeah I apologize. I misinterpereted something i read.
Embarrising.

But unchanged familiars is actually even worse. Oh I didn't get that power. It would be a shame if got to reroll.Its also going to very hard to peril on ones.

Just to be clear, Heldrake nerf didn't kill CSM. CSM was already one foot in the grave and the Heldrake nerf is the shovel pushing dirt on a shallow grave.

So we're not dead because of the Heldrake nerf, but we're hurting pretty good, especially in the Air Combat department, particularly with the Hades Autocannon never getting a rear shot on anything with an equivalent maneuverability.

Or, to scratch out the hyperbole, it'll be maybe 1 turn of VS and Shooting before the Heldrake is rendered ineffective and has to fly off the board for another strafing run.

He has me on ignore, but I feel I should mention that TheRedWingArmada is really cross about the recent change to Heldrakes.

So you got a 400 pt BL prince whose doing the job of one Tz herald. He sure isn't going to be cc'ing anything whilst flying and without shrouded/invis you he won't last long on the ground. This is a really bad waste of points.

Then you got two ML3 sorcs, one of which is only there to feed warp charge to the DP and the other sorc. Now you have roughly 700 points tied up into what 10 warp dice and maleific powers that can do little else. A good roll on the D6 for warp dice and you might get to summon two units a turn. Good luck spending 3 turns just to overcome the handicap you gave yourself. This looks like a really bad tactic for CSM.

Serg Rush wrote:

But unchanged familiars is actually even worse.

You may want to re-check your math. Spell Familiars make chaos space marine psykers the undisputed champions of using psychic powers in this edition.

For example, they can cast a warp charge 1 power with 1 die 75% of the time. That's a staggering gain of efficiency over everyone else.

 winterman wrote:
Should note that taking Black Legion Primary and Crimson Slaughter in an ally detachment is not legal per the 7ed rulebook. You could take them as two Combined Arms detachments though, but a lot of folks are not allowing that in their tournaments and thus their day to day gaming.

So it really depends on how you and your opponents, play group or TO rules allies and multiple detachments, etc.

LOL. So you know what alot of people are doing throughout the world? If your local group won't allow detachments they are Redacted.

Be careful with word choice; the auto-filters are there as a convenience, but you are still responsible for your word choices. --Janthkin

JubbJubbz wrote:
So you got a 400 pt BL prince whose doing the job of one Tz herald. He sure isn't going to be cc'ing anything whilst flying and without shrouded/invis you he won't last long on the ground. This is a really bad waste of points.

Then you got two ML3 sorcs, one of which is only there to feed warp charge to the DP and the other sorc. Now you have roughly 700 points tied up into what 10 warp dice and maleific powers that can do little else. A good roll on the D6 for warp dice and you might get to summon two units a turn. Good luck spending 3 turns just to overcome the handicap you gave yourself. This looks like a really bad tactic for CSM.

Have to agree with this, most basic lists would somewhat conquer this list outright.

I'm hoping most TOs will allows armies to ally with themselves (rather than having to take a second full CAD) to fix this issue.

Most responses I have seen on different forums is setting a limit to detachments, but not removing detachments completely. In the end if a TO does this they will only draw a crowd of like minded crybabies.

From what I can tell reading the Chaos stuff, it looks right now like you can legally mix and match CSM, black Legion and Crimson Slaughter in one CAD. I have not spent to much time hammering the legal on that but does look legal upfront as they are all the same faction with no restrictions.

Is it more was there not a completely duplicate thread on this.

 winterman wrote:
Should note that taking Black Legion Primary and Crimson Slaughter in an ally detachment is not legal per the 7ed rulebook. You could take them as two Combined Arms detachments though, but a lot of folks are not allowing that in their tournaments and thus their day to day gaming.

There are people who believe that all the supplements are part of "Faction: Chaos Space Marines" and can actually be taken in the same detachment. I haven't delved into that one enough to really know though.

The BRB explicitly says that any supplements should count all the units from it as part of the faction the book is supplementing.

ohh my, do we still have cry babies boohooing over the Helldrake?

 zachwho wrote:
ohh my, do we still have cry babies boohooing over the Helldrake?

You get that this sort of response to a discussion pretty much goes out of fashion when you start counting your age in double digits, right?

Please see Dakka's rule #1. People are free to disagree with others' opinions, but there is no call for this sort of response.

You do realize that if you put more than 1ML into a last memory nova (which you will pretty much have to do) your psyker is removed from play right? With changes to psychic powers that is very likely to happen, even with rerolls. One bad roll and *poof* goes your 400 pt points dump.

On top of the fact that the Memory nova isn't even that powerful.

And that it's really over-costed for what it does.

 Tyrius wrote:
Most responses I have seen on different forums is setting a limit to detachments, but not removing detachments completely. In the end if a TO does this they will only draw a crowd of like minded crybabies.

GWs own tournament restricts you to one combined arms detachment one ally detachment and then formations and whatnot. That is the kind of restriction I was referring too because the OPs idea would be disallowed. Lot of other events are doing similar restrictions.

So not really sure what you are going on about.

 herpguy wrote:
You do realize that if you put more than 1ML into a last memory nova (which you will pretty much have to do) your psyker is removed from play right? With changes to psychic powers that is very likely to happen, even with rerolls. One bad roll and *poof* goes your 400 pt points dump.

It's only if the power fails, not if it is used.

Also, you, the player, control how likely such a scenario is.

That's your fix for the CSM dex?
No thanks.

I am seeing either two detachments as the norm, or one combined arms, one ally with self allying allowed.

Chaos has gotten a significant boost across the board with the edition change.

As with everything, open the book back up and start looking at units that you removed as a possibility. Lots of things are looking decent now(raptors are actually not bad now with the scoring changes)

 Leth wrote:
I am seeing either two detachments as the norm, or one combined arms, one ally with self allying allowed.

Chaos has gotten a significant boost across the board with the edition change.

As with everything, open the book back up and start looking at units that you removed as a possibility. Lots of things are looking decent now(raptors are actually not bad now with the scoring changes)

I can agree with this, except I wonder what was holding raptors back before? Personally, I always kind of thought of them as a mainstay, even though Fast Attack options seem limited to either Bikes or HelDark.