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So, I have been a die-hard World Eaters (and Iron Warriors) fan for quite a few years. I used to think that Angron was the "purest" Primarch in the form of not making it hidden what he wants and what he is going to do. I used to think that nothing embodied the destruction and intelligence hidden within a Primarch better than he. However, after reading Betrayer and really delving into his psyche I can't help but hate the guy! I am pretty convinced that he is by far the worst Primarch in every way (except single combat). Yes, I will say that every Primarch is much greater than he is. He literally cares nothing about his own men, and even acts like his bodyguards don't exist. The dude even uses horde tactics when he commands the epitome of capability when it comes to warfare. He also basically forced his whole legion to become crippled and incapable of being tactical themselves. After all these years, I can say that I am extremely disappointed (to say the least) to finally find out that he is pretty much a very whiny and angry child.

He was taken away from the people he did care about, and told to command men that he had never known or died beside. Why should Angron care one damn bit for the World Eaters?

 herpguy wrote:
He literally cares nothing about his own men, and even acts like his bodyguards don't exist.

I may be missing a good deal of BL fluff on Angron, but from what I've read, I'd bet he despises his title, his position and the Astartes under his command. Angron was twice robbed of his destiny: First by the slavers that implanted the Butcher's Nails on him, a brutal punishment that virtually destroyed his personality and conditionment. Second by the Emperor himself, who denied him the hero's death he actively sought.

Along with Curze, he was broken long before he was discovered.

Of all the Primarchs, alongside perhaps Perturabo, he has the most justifiable reason for siding with Horus against the Emperor. Yes, he has some unpleasant character traits, but unlike some of the others (Fulgrim for instance, who essentially seems to turn because he can, or Lorgar because he is petulant) he, most of all, has had his destiny taken out of his own hands, and acts the way he does for reasons that are outside of his control, and weren't his decision in the first place.

Edit
Hell, he even essentially gets tricked into ascending by Lorgar, I'm really surprised that Betrayer gave you the outlook it did, but I guess that different things being taken away from any created work is a sign of quality.

It's very true that I can really hardly blame him. Like he said in Betrayer, it wouldn't have taken much effort for the Emperor to destroy everybody his slavers were against and then take him on the crusade. Angron probably does have the best reason for hating the Emperor. In fact, he probably never liked him.
The problem is that he was a terrible general and tactician in the end. His potential for greatness was really never there ever since he had the Nails in him.

Which wasn't his fault, they were implanted against his will, so we never know what the 'real' Angron would have been.

Unlike Curze, who has far fewer mitigating factors for his psychopathy!

@herpguy - Exactly. The nails destroyed the Primarch and left only a gladiator. One with a superhuman biology, yes, an extremely capable individual fighter, but not the leader of men a Primarch is supposed to be.

Also, we don't really know if Angron was meant to be the shock trooper (or better, the state-sanctioned galactic barbarian) he became. For all purposes, he could have been the Emperor's naval strategist, interior designer, or stand-up comedian. Whatever his programming was, the nails destroyed it.

Angron was a bad Primarch. Yeah he had a gak life, but so what? Lots of the Primarchs had crap lives.

Despite his resentment toward the Emperor, he still accepted command of the legion, still fought for hundreds of years under the Emperor's banner. If he hated his existence and the Emperor so much, he could have turned down control of the legion, could have fought the Emperor to the death and received the death he craved so much. Instead he spent hundreds of years kicking the dog and dragging one of the best Unification-War legions down into oblivion alongside him.

He was a bad Primarch. The root of that badness isn't his fault, but at the end of the day personal responsibility has to step in.

 azreal13 wrote:
Which wasn't his fault, they were implanted against his will, so we never know what the 'real' Angron would have been.

Unlike Curze, who has far fewer mitigating factors for his psychopathy!

Umm... Curze was haunted by visions of the bleak, bleak future. He had gone flying rodent gak crazy, through no fault of his own, long before Horus fell to Chaos... and he never really fell to Chaos, so much as just kept being flying rodent gak crazy. The Night Lords are, to the current day, not so much disciples of Chaos as they are rebels with nowhere else to go.

Heck, when push came to shove, Curze didn't even bother killing the assassin sent after him- he knew he was crazy, that the universe was crazy, and that the only end to his torment was death. Of all the Primarchs, I'd say he's the *most* reasonable, because when he realized how fethed the galaxy was, he wanted no part of it... and he's the only Primarch who fell to Chaos who had no way of changing his own situation. Maybe Magnus could have helped him, but he was mostly fethed by the time he met the Emperor.

That explains all the flaying, murdering, intimidation tactics and general "I'm Batmanning" around Nostramo how?

Sanguinius is also said to have had visions, plus he had the whole red thirst thing to contend with, you never saw him go full emo.

 herpguy wrote:
So, I have been a die-hard World Eaters (and Iron Warriors) fan for quite a few years. I used to think that Angron was the "purest" Primarch in the form of not making it hidden what he wants and what he is going to do. I used to think that nothing embodied the destruction and intelligence hidden within a Primarch better than he. However, after reading Betrayer and really delving into his psyche I can't help but hate the guy! I am pretty convinced that he is by far the worst Primarch in every way (except single combat). Yes, I will say that every Primarch is much greater than he is. He literally cares nothing about his own men, and even acts like his bodyguards don't exist. The dude even uses horde tactics when he commands the epitome of capability when it comes to warfare. He also basically forced his whole legion to become crippled and incapable of being tactical themselves. After all these years, I can say that I am extremely disappointed (to say the least) to finally find out that he is pretty much a very whiny and angry child.

Yes, surprisingly having a cybernetic implant in your head that heightens aggression to dangerous levels and makes you obsessed with violence and killing makes you a poor strategist and tactician.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Angron was a bad Primarch. Yeah he had a gak life, but so what? Lots of the Primarchs had crap lives.

Despite his resentment toward the Emperor, he still accepted command of the legion, still fought for hundreds of years under the Emperor's banner. If he hated his existence and the Emperor so much, he could have turned down control of the legion, could have fought the Emperor to the death and received the death he craved so much. Instead he spent hundreds of years kicking the dog and dragging one of the best Unification-War legions down into oblivion alongside him.

He was a bad Primarch. The root of that badness isn't his fault, but at the end of the day personal responsibility has to step in.

In all honesty, considering the Emperor's psyker talent, he might've just broken his will rather then fight him and still force him to lead.

herpguy wrote:...he is pretty much a very whiny and angry child.

For the most part, this pretty much sums up every Primarch. Even the loyalists.

BlaxicanX wrote:The root of that badness isn't his fault, but at the end of the day personal responsibility has to step in.

This too applies to pretty much the whole pack of 'em. Watching everything go to hell around them and then trying to claim that it was someone else's fault, or that it was justified somehow, seems to be the one thing that links all the Primarchs together.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
For all purposes, he could have been the Emperor's naval strategist

I've always found out completely inexplicable that there were two seige warfare guys, god knows how many assault primarchs, and not a single sailor. Then again the entire game downplays the navy side to a degree that stretches credulity past the breaking point.

Most of the Primarchs led their navy. None really focus on it above other aspects of warfare though.

He is one of the most bloody primach

Angron may have been a great fighter and a crap commander, but we're all forgetting one very important thing: Kharn.

Kharn was the entire strategic mind of the World Eaters, to the point (and I'm not deep enough in fluff to say for certain) that he probably held tactical command most of the time while Angron presented himself as an icon for the rest of the crazies to follow, which was more important in leading a bloodthirsty band of gladiators.

In a group like that, you need one bad mofo who can crush everyones skull with a thump of their thumb to inspire the rest, and one bad mofo who has brains enough to strategize.

Kharn is that strategist for the World Eaters.

Angron is the first true Angry marine!

I blame the emperor, instead of saving Angron's Blood brethren , He only saved Angron and created the first renegade long before Lorgar turned. Another one of the Emperor's "smart" moves.

If he saved his gladiators brothers, or deployed his forces to there aid yes he may have not had resentment and been still broken and angry, and earned his respect and loyalty.

However he is still mentally damaged by the butchers nails so would have been more a loyal attack dog, still doomed to a early death but more the brutal enforcer, the warrior of dread and maybe a bit like Russ, brutal warriors but loyal, the go to guys when more aggressive tactics are called for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If he saved his gladiators brothers, or deployed his forces to there aid yes he may have not had resentment and been still broken and angry, and earned his respect and loyalty.

However he is still mentally damaged by the butchers nails so would have been more a loyal attack dog, still doomed to a early death but more the brutal enforcer, the warrior of dread and maybe a bit like Russ, brutal warriors but loyal, the go to guys when more aggressive tactics are called for.

The key part of all this is angron is the only Primarch who didn't want to be a Primarch

 herpguy wrote:
So, I have been a die-hard World Eaters (and Iron Warriors) fan for quite a few years. I used to think that Angron was the "purest" Primarch in the form of not making it hidden what he wants and what he is going to do. I used to think that nothing embodied the destruction and intelligence hidden within a Primarch better than he. However, after reading Betrayer and really delving into his psyche I can't help but hate the guy! I am pretty convinced that he is by far the worst Primarch in every way (except single combat). Yes, I will say that every Primarch is much greater than he is. He literally cares nothing about his own men, and even acts like his bodyguards don't exist. The dude even uses horde tactics when he commands the epitome of capability when it comes to warfare. He also basically forced his whole legion to become crippled and incapable of being tactical themselves. After all these years, I can say that I am extremely disappointed (to say the least) to finally find out that he is pretty much a very whiny and angry child.

Angron never asked for this. Angron was in a bad state mentally Before the Emp intervened, and it didnt help that those Angron cared for died thanks to the Emps actions. He had every right to be angry for what the emp did taking those he cared for away from him and forcing men and empires he had no intrest in upon Angron.

Just another example of the Emperor's rush to the finish line putting aside all common sense and ultimately dooming the imperium before it even started. The fact that the Emperor didn't even tame Angron himself and allowed the top 7 Warhound commanders to be beaten to death before the 8th (Kharn) managed to get through to him.

Angron should have been allowed to die when it was evident he would never have been the man he was supposed to be. At the very least the World Eaters should have had monitors in place to make sure he didn't, y'know brain damage his entire Legion with tech that no one understands.

Curze should have been given some serious help finding his humanity before being unleashed on the galaxy. I mean he even told the Emperor what he was the moment they met and the Emp welcome Konrad Curze "No father, that is not my name, I am The Night Haunter." And maybe someone should have listened when he warned them that his Legion was being poisoned by the Nostroman recruits, before he had to resort to genocide.

Lorgar really needed to be sat down and explained that worship was wrong, rather than turning a blind eye to him (which he took as permission to continue) then after a century and a half, shaming him and burning his perfect city.

Magnus was the one Primarch that needed the Emperor to be candid with. A real sit down where he explained WHY it was wrong to delve too far into Sorcery, exactly the threat the Chaos posed and the intentions of the Webway project. Nikea would have been unneccesary if this little conversation had happened.

Why was it that Guilliman saw the need for tactical uniformity in the Legions and a unified message, whereas the the Emperor seemed to think that it was a good idea to have 18 Primarchs each enforcing a different take on the Imperial Truth?

The greatest flaw of the great crusade was chance. If Angron discovered your world he would ask once for compliance and then butcher a world when it refused. If Horus or Guilliman discovered a world then they would attempt a parlay and attempt to talk them into the fold before warring with them (More so Guilliman, but Horus had his moments of justice). If Lorgar found you and you worshipped the wrong god then you would die as a blasphemer, if Curze found you he would flay the planetary leaders and demand fealty again. It makes no sense.

Imagine if you will, you are a world's leader. A giant angel, with wings, golden armour and handsome face, walks in and tells you of this wonderous imperium that is reuniting humanity. Well you'd be a fool to resist, who would not be intruiged to learn more of this newly enlightned society? Now Imagine this scarred monster approaches you, face pulled by painful ticks, ugly implants connecting to his skull, who can barely string a sentence together, demands that you bow down to the Imperium or be destroyed...What sane culture would agree to that? Any progressive society would see them as monsters and Tyrants and would fight to the death to resist even if it looked like there was no way you would win. I honestly think that the Emperor was an idiot for allowing the Legions to take the shapes they did.

Angron never had much of a chance from the get go. Can't really blame the chap with the rage inducing pain engine in his skull for being a bit nuts. At least he recognised his failings and rolled with it, rather than cover it up.

Personal theory on why the Emperor didn't unleash the Warhounds to fight with Angron on Nuceria. He knew that the battle would be swift but bloody but would lead to Angron becoming the Blood Prince. He couldn't afford losing one (or maybe another) of his Sons to the Pantheon. The revulsion that his Son had been so close to being lost was what kept him away afterwards. The Emperor knows more about Chaos and it's workings then he lets on.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Angron

"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? when have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."
Choke on deez nuts, Papa Smurf.

I quite like the spartcaus primarch, more so due to Betrayer. I liked the way brotherhood mattered more to him then anything else, even his hatred of the Emperor comes from his shame and self loathing of being an oath breaker for not dying with those he loved

I think the bottom line here might actually be that while the Emperor was a great guy and all, he was still just a guy playing with Chaotic fire.

There isn't anything I've read so far that leads me to believe the Chaos Gods haven't made pawns out of everyone, including the Emperor and the Primarchs. In fact, the entire Heresy smacks of the perfect perversion of what the Emperor strived for in his hubris and pride, without ever realizing the true consequences of his actions. And this is saying a lot since his greatest asset was his Prescience, and when that failed him (or led him astray, as seems to be the case with his "Great Crusade") the true mortality of the Emperor was revealed. Not just in physicality but mentally and spiritually as well.

I've heard this theory that if the Golden Throne fails and the Emperor dies, that he will be reborn in the Warp as a Chaos God (of Light, arguably). Wouldn't it be far more fitting if he was reborn and became the true cannibal monster he was made into upon ascending to the Golden Throne?

Imagine this: The Emperor dies and the Last Bell tolls and signals the end of humanity. The Custodes bear witness to this, as do the High Lords of Terra and all of the servitors and such that tend to the mechanisms. Then the corpse stands up suddenly and everyone rejoices or is held agape at the spectacle/miracle they are witnessing. And in the thrall of rejoice, suddenly the Emperor descends upon them and the Legion of the Damned pours out of the Warp Portal he has kept shut with his butt-cheeks for the last 10,000 years. Suddenly, Terra is ripped apart from within and all of the mysticism, misunderstanding and trauma breaches real space and humanity is left fighting yet another Chaos God.

This scenario, to me, seems more likely for a being of such omnipresence in a grim dark universe, on a scale of such unimaginable scale, finally being brought to a head.

And wouldn't it be ironic to find out that the entire purpose of the Black Crusade is to resurrect the Emperor FOR the Loyalists? That would be some shiz.

Edit: On a side note, isn't Perturabo in the same boat as Angron for being a Primarch who didn't want to be a Primarch?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Personal theory on why the Emperor didn't unleash the Warhounds to fight with Angron on Nuceria. He knew that the battle would be swift but bloody but would lead to Angron becoming the Blood Prince.

This is about the only theory I've seen on the incident that doesn't reflect really badly on the Emperor. If he had foreseen that Angron would fall on Nuceria it would be essential to get him off world as quickly as possible... little knowing that it would happen anyway many years later.

Personally though I take a less positive view. The Emperor was not a nice guy and many of his decisions were brutal and/or callous. The ruling order of Nuceria could be brought to compliance quite easily - their society does not appear to have significantly changed when Angron returns in Betrayer so presumably they were compatible to begin with. So why pull that down by supporting a rabble of slaves who would never contribute anything useful to the IoM? Better to let them die - a drop in the oceans of bloodshed of the Great Crusade - and in doing so Angron would have no reason not to fulfill his 'true' purpose as part of the Great Crusade. To the Emperor the slave rebellion would be an insignificant local matter not worth considering in his big picture.

To Angron of course it was everything. Everyone he ever considered a comrade or a friend, everyone he ever cared about, was slaughtered, and he wasn't there to fight and die alongside them. When he goes back he discovers that everyone believes he ran from the battle, and presumably the only friends he ever had in his life died thinking he had chosen to abandon them. That's a classic tragedy.

Why are people saying we don't know how angron would have been without the nails?

We do know, his legion was all about brotherhood, we see snippets of it from angron in betrayer too, angron would have been the uniter

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

I may be missing a good deal of BL fluff on Angron, but from what I've read, I'd bet he despises his title, his position and the Astartes under his command

Pretty much. In Betrayer, it is mentioned he rmonly permits the title of "Sire" rather than "Sir," "Father," Lord or whatever else.

To be honest, angron may as well have led a massive penal legion with astartes acting like slave drivers imo. I agree that he is a terrible primarch, he acted like a child and turned his legion into a legion of feral pack animals.