Mars vs Terra

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**MrBlackledge**

I Dont literally mean mars vs terra i mean Imperium Vs Mechanicum. who would win?

AdMech have titans... lots of them they have thousands of skitarii as well as superheavies and some of the most powerful weapons in the universe. however the imperium has billions upon billions of soldiers and big ships with big lasers.

the way I see it is that the unless the imperium win straight away they will lose. they cannot afford to get locked in an attritional war for obvious reasons.

it would also be interesting to see how the line is drawn. which legios would side with mars and so on. would tank crews go to the mechanicum or the imperium? so on and so forth.

**pm713**

Imperium. Mechanicus can't recruit nearly enough and the Imperium can still manufacture basic equipment on Hive Worlds so they can drown things in numbers. Plus the Imperium has the Inqusition to Exterminatus Forge Worlds.

Although a war would be stupid for both of them.

**squidhills**

Mechanicum. Because they have the knowings of a lot of things. Things like.... how to make things. How to repair things. Important things. Like all of the guns and tanks and ships that the Imperium uses. Yes, there are people in the IoM who have a rudimentary understanding of tech, but that is more for basic maintainance, rather than construction or advanced repair. Plenty of guys in the IG know how to keep a Chimera running, but most of them don't know how to fix it if a lascannon blows the treads off. The guys who do know how to fix it? That's the AM.

The AM knows how to fix and build things and the IoM doesn't. So, even if the IoM defeats the AM (which is likely in a direct stand-up fight) the IoM loses when, a week later, all of their technology breaks down and nobody knows how to fix any of it. The AM wins by default.

**Wulfmar**

Douglas Quaid won it for the martians with a little help from Kuato

**ChazSexington**

Wulfmar wrote:
Douglas Quaid won it for the martians with a little help from Kuato

I did nothing! The pavement was his enemy!

**da001**

pm713 wrote:
Imperium. Mechanicus can't recruit nearly enough and the Imperium can still manufacture basic equipment on Hive Worlds so they can drown things in numbers. Plus the Imperium has the Inqusition to Exterminatus Forge Worlds.

You mean they would use a space ship built in a Forge World to unleash an Exterminatus weapon made in a Forge World upon a Forge World?

What would stop the Admech fleet to do the same on Terra? Oh, I know, the void shields the Forge Worlds built and the Mechanicus installed there to stop such attacks.

However, I agree with you. The Imperium has a lot of weaponary and countless recruits. It would be a massacre but my bets are on Terra.

Although a war would be stupid for both of them.

Sure. There is a book called 'Titanicus', by Dan Abnett. It is quite good but somehow rushed at the end.

Spoiler:

By the way it is one of the few Black Library books that while unleashing an endless stream of awesomeness upon the reader, does not contain any reference to Space Marines of any kind. Which I find refreshing.

**Grey Templar**

The Imperium would win because they have the firepower, but they'd lose their technical support so would quickly fall to external threats without the support of the Ad Mech.

The converse is also true.

Basically, they'll never go to war with each other because they need each other too much. They're conjoined at the hip for eternity.

**Wyzilla**

Mechanicum. Because without them the Imperium can't even fire their own guns, let alone fly their own ships or build any new technology.

**pm713**

da001 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Imperium. Mechanicus can't recruit nearly enough and the Imperium can still manufacture basic equipment on Hive Worlds so they can drown things in numbers. Plus the Imperium has the Inqusition to Exterminatus Forge Worlds.
You mean they would use a space ship built in a Forge World to unleash an Exterminatus weapon made in a Forge World upon a Forge World?

What would stop the Admech fleet to do the same on Terra? Oh, I know, the void shields the Forge Worlds built and the Mechanicus installed there to stop such attacks.

However, I agree with you. The Imperium has a lot of weaponary and countless recruits. It would be a massacre but my bets are on Terra.

Although a war would be stupid for both of them.

Well I imagine the big defensive guns on Luna stop that happening along with all the ships the Imperium already has. Just because you made it doesn't mean it won't blow you up....it does mean nobody else makes it though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyzilla wrote:
Mechanicum. Because without them the Imperium can't even fire their own guns, let alone fly their own ships or build any new technology.

But how does that stop them winning? It does mean that the whole Imperium becomes a place where a Lasgun is a rare thing because hardly any are made and whats broken stays broken which would lead to the collapse of the Imperium and probably the death of the human race. But after they beat the Mechanicus.

**PrehistoricUFO**

The AdMech would have crazy viruses to unleash on Imperium tech during pivotal points in battle, experimental tech it's been hiding from the Imperium, or prototypical stuff it's developed in secret since the start of their conflict - there are a ton of tricks the Mechanicus could pull.

The Imperium though, has incredible resources to draw upon and would just win what would inevitably become a war of attrition.

. . . then the AdMech just uses their panic button and unleashes the Void Dragon/opens that secret vault and ends everything and everyone because BEING IN CHECKMATE DOES NOT COMPUTE. LOL.

edit - Grammar errors like mad today. Jesus.

**Ferros**

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if there was some Deus Ex Mechanica [No pun intended] such as, the Mechanicum being able to shut down the Imperial Navy in masse by communicating something with the host machine spirits.

I feel like it'd probably be a stalemate though. Mechanicum needs astropaths for warp travel.
Imperium needs ships. Ships that obey their commands. Also: Enginseers.

Fight doesn't last too long when neither side can reach one another after the opening weeks.

**Exergy**

The AdMech

the big scary Navy ships dont work without the AdMech say so. They would quickly break down and become useless. The mech on the other hand can get the raw materials they need to survive through looting and pillaging

a concerted effort by ships that havent yet broken down might take down a forge world or two, but remember forge worlds are the most heavily defended planets outside of fortress worlds in the galaxy.

**Wyzilla**

pm713 wrote:
da001 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Imperium. Mechanicus can't recruit nearly enough and the Imperium can still manufacture basic equipment on Hive Worlds so they can drown things in numbers. Plus the Imperium has the Inqusition to Exterminatus Forge Worlds.
You mean they would use a space ship built in a Forge World to unleash an Exterminatus weapon made in a Forge World upon a Forge World?

What would stop the Admech fleet to do the same on Terra? Oh, I know, the void shields the Forge Worlds built and the Mechanicus installed there to stop such attacks.

However, I agree with you. The Imperium has a lot of weaponary and countless recruits. It would be a massacre but my bets are on Terra.

Although a war would be stupid for both of them.

Well I imagine the big defensive guns on Luna stop that happening along with all the ships the Imperium already has. Just because you made it doesn't mean it won't blow you up....it does mean nobody else makes it though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyzilla wrote:
Mechanicum. Because without them the Imperium can't even fire their own guns, let alone fly their own ships or build any new technology.

But how does that stop them winning? It does mean that the whole Imperium becomes a place where a Lasgun is a rare thing because hardly any are made and whats broken stays broken which would lead to the collapse of the Imperium and probably the death of the human race. But after they beat the Mechanicus.

Because I'm not sure they can even run the ships to transport the troops to invade the Admech Forge Worlds without the Admech priests as part of the crew.

**BrotherOfBone**

Well considering Terras has the Custodes, who are slightly better than regular Astartes and a lot better equipped, who have their own star ships.
Also the Imperial Fists who have their own star ships.
And then probably billions of members of the PDF...

Where does it state that Imperial ships are reliant on members of the AdMech to run them? They soothe the Machine Spirit and do repairs, but they don't literally control the entire of the ship.

**Gashrog**

AdMech hands down, because it already happened.

Goge Vandire's Reign of Blood ended when he was executed (at the Emperor's behest) by his own bodyguard at the 11th hour, it was the 11th hour because with the full aid of the AdMech a mere handful of Astartes chapters were to do what Horus had failed with several hundred thousands of Astartes.

**KommissarKarl**

Who would win in a battle between your lungs and your heart? The two bodies are symbiotically combined, sure they may be separate but they can't exist on any level without each other and they know that. Having said that, a powerful tech-priest becoming corrupted by Chaos and launching a huge mech army against the Imperium would make for a pretty badass story.

**Psienesis**

While the AdMech builds the ships and the weapons and the like... they don't, in the main, operate them. Imperial Navy ships? We're talking like 25000 Imperial Navy soldiers... all of whom are God-Emperor-fearing Regular Joes and Janes... and maybe 500 Tech-Priests in the Generarium.

The AdMech may build the stuff, but they certainly aren't required to operate it.

**Inkubas**

It'd be certain destruction for both sides. Both need each other.

**BlaxicanX**

Mars. Imperium has lots of people, but how are they going to get those people anywhere? With their ships that rely entirely on Tech-Priests to function? What are they going to arm their men with? Lasguns that are built in forges? Vehicles? Machine-spirits need to be tended too and maintained in order to function.

Imperium versus Mars would be like Mankind trying to fight oxygen.

**Canis**

Better together.

Sounds familiar....

They have a symbiotic relationship.

**pm713**

Wyzilla wrote:
pm713 wrote:
da001 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Imperium. Mechanicus can't recruit nearly enough and the Imperium can still manufacture basic equipment on Hive Worlds so they can drown things in numbers. Plus the Imperium has the Inqusition to Exterminatus Forge Worlds.
You mean they would use a space ship built in a Forge World to unleash an Exterminatus weapon made in a Forge World upon a Forge World?

What would stop the Admech fleet to do the same on Terra? Oh, I know, the void shields the Forge Worlds built and the Mechanicus installed there to stop such attacks.

However, I agree with you. The Imperium has a lot of weaponary and countless recruits. It would be a massacre but my bets are on Terra.

Although a war would be stupid for both of them.

Well I imagine the big defensive guns on Luna stop that happening along with all the ships the Imperium already has. Just because you made it doesn't mean it won't blow you up....it does mean nobody else makes it though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyzilla wrote:
Mechanicum. Because without them the Imperium can't even fire their own guns, let alone fly their own ships or build any new technology.

But how does that stop them winning? It does mean that the whole Imperium becomes a place where a Lasgun is a rare thing because hardly any are made and whats broken stays broken which would lead to the collapse of the Imperium and probably the death of the human race. But after they beat the Mechanicus.

Because I'm not sure they can even run the ships to transport the troops to invade the Admech Forge Worlds without the Admech priests as part of the crew.

Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

**PhillyT**

In a flat fight, the Imperium would completely pancake the Ad Mech using just the Astartes.

The idea that it would be disastrous for both stems most likely from the fact that the addition of yet another enemy, of the civil variety, would just tip the scales and lead to a full collapse of the Imperium.

**Exergy**

Psienesis wrote:
While the AdMech builds the ships and the weapons and the like... they don't, in the main, operate them. Imperial Navy ships? We're talking like 25000 Imperial Navy soldiers... all of whom are God-Emperor-fearing Regular Joes and Janes... and maybe 500 Tech-Priests in the Generarium.

The AdMech may build the stuff, but they certainly aren't required to operate it.

opperate no, repair yes. The bigger the system, the more complex the system, the more often it needs repair.

also war is a protracted logistics game. it doesnt really matter who is harder, but who is better supplied. Soldiers and tanks arent very good without bullets, and in war they run out of bullets very quickly.

**pm713**

Exergy wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
While the AdMech builds the ships and the weapons and the like... they don't, in the main, operate them. Imperial Navy ships? We're talking like 25000 Imperial Navy soldiers... all of whom are God-Emperor-fearing Regular Joes and Janes... and maybe 500 Tech-Priests in the Generarium.

The AdMech may build the stuff, but they certainly aren't required to operate it.

opperate no, repair yes. The bigger the system, the more complex the system, the more often it needs repair.

also war is a protracted logistics game. it doesnt really matter who is harder, but who is better supplied. Soldiers and tanks arent very good without bullets, and in war they run out of bullets very quickly.

Bullets without soldiers aren't that great either. Between soldierless bullets and bulletless soldiers the second one wins.

**Bran Dawri**

pm713 wrote:
Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

They don't. But they do run the Enginarium and the power core because no one else even remotely has a clue how to run them, never mind maintain them.
If you can turn off the ship's lights and everything else that runs on the power core (ie, everything), you don't need control of the bridge. Or worse, overload the thing so the ship explodes.

Also, the Admech isn't without soldiers of its own. The elite of the Skitarii are rumoured to rival Space Marines in battlefield power.

**pm713**

Bran Dawri wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

They don't. But they do run the Enginarium and the power core because no one else even remotely has a clue how to run them, never mind maintain them.
If you can turn off the ship's lights and everything else that runs on the power core (ie, everything), you don't need control of the bridge. Or worse, overload the thing so the ship explodes.

Also, the Admech isn't without soldiers of its own. The elite of the Skitarii are rumoured to rival Space Marines in battlefield power.

But they can make them work the generator or trick them.
But not outnumber them and the entire Imperium which is why the Ad Mech almost can't win.

**BrotherOfBone**

pm713 wrote:
Bran Dawri wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Nothing I've ever read even hints that the Admech pilot the Imperial Navy ships.

They don't. But they do run the Enginarium and the power core because no one else even remotely has a clue how to run them, never mind maintain them.
If you can turn off the ship's lights and everything else that runs on the power core (ie, everything), you don't need control of the bridge. Or worse, overload the thing so the ship explodes.

Also, the Admech isn't without soldiers of its own. The elite of the Skitarii are rumoured to rival Space Marines in battlefield power.

But they can make them work the generator or trick them.
But not outnumber them and the entire Imperium which is why the Ad Mech almost can't win.

Almost can't win? Where's the almost in it?

**Psienesis**

Exergy wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
While the AdMech builds the ships and the weapons and the like... they don't, in the main, operate them. Imperial Navy ships? We're talking like 25000 Imperial Navy soldiers... all of whom are God-Emperor-fearing Regular Joes and Janes... and maybe 500 Tech-Priests in the Generarium.

The AdMech may build the stuff, but they certainly aren't required to operate it.

opperate no, repair yes. The bigger the system, the more complex the system, the more often it needs repair.

also war is a protracted logistics game. it doesnt really matter who is harder, but who is better supplied. Soldiers and tanks arent very good without bullets, and in war they run out of bullets very quickly.

Not in this case it isn't. Mars is a literal 2 minute Warp Jump from Terra. Hell, if it's on the right side of the Sun, it's probably within range of Terra's planetary defenses.

You know why the AdMech is part of the Imperium now? Because they knew damn well they couldn't win the war against the Emperor's forces when he left Terra before the GC even started. This is a war that might last a matter of months.'

Also, there's plenty of Rogue Traders who ply the Void without the benefit of an AdMech representative on board. Whether their Enginseer is a Here-Tek, some wiz-kid wrenchturner, an ancient, entirely autonomous system, or something else entirely, there's plenty of vessels that don't have a Tech-Priest on board and yet still operate.

**daddyorchips**

i think the mechanicus could do a lot of damage in the short term, but the imperium would win in the long term. it depends on what you call win - for example, i suspect the mechanicus could strike at Terra and destroy it. Would the loss of the Emperor mean that the Imperium has lost ? Mechanicus don't have the manpower to hold on - but they could effectly end the Imperium as we know it.

**Grey Templar**

The Mechanicus would never get past Terra's defenses, even with Mars being so close.

Terra has obscenely powerful defenses. There are more ships and defenses guarding Terra than are guarding most sectors.