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So a thought just occurred, and I don't have the book to hand to check, but with the new shooting rules stating that one completely resolves the firing of one weapon type before shooting the next, and Superheavies being free to fire each weapon system at a different target, does this mean that a Superheavy is able to shoot a transport with an anti tank weapon, then, should it successfully destroy it, use other weapons to target the newly exposed embarked unit?

Target selection is declared before selecting a weapon. You have to declare all of your targets prior to selecting and resolving each weapon. If you look at the sequence chart, target selection is step 2. Weapon is Step 3 and you repeat 3-6 for each Unit. You never go back to 2.

Very important, because it would allow all sorts of strangeness with multi-weapon carrying Models.

The issue with that is Superheavies have permission to target a new unit with each weapon, and if you repeat steps 3-6 once you start firing, you never get an opportunity to select a fresh unit, one has to return to step 2 once you have completed firing one gun in order to be able to select a new target.

I can see this as an issue though, as, let's use an example:

Stormlord chooses to fire Lascannons first, Vulcan Bolter second at Target A: Marines in a Rhino.

Once you have resolved the Lascannons, and destroyed the Rhino, you move on to the Vulcan Bolter, which, firing at the same unit would kill the marines?

The only argument against i can see is p31: "All of the models (...) shoot at the same time"
disallowing a *different timing* of shooting at passengers.

p36 goes the other way though: "You may now find that due to the casualties (...) there are now fewer models in the target unit in range" assuming you *resolve* the first shooting weapon completely.

That's why the superheavy has to declare all it's targets before it starts firing. SImple, really.

Yes, it is contradictory.

Do you break the "resolve each weapon's shooting before moving in to the next" rule and select all the SH's targets at the same time, or do you resolve each one to completion (presumably returning to step 2 - nominate a target, because you have permission to choose a new target in the SH rules) and therefore, once you've completed step 6 and removed casualties for one weapon, can now select any disembarked troops as a new target?

 don_mondo wrote:
That's why the superheavy has to declare all it's targets before it starts firing. SImple, really.

I can not find this part in the rules for superheavies, citation please.

 don_mondo wrote:
That's why the superheavy has to declare all it's targets before it starts firing. SImple, really.

Citation needed.

I do think this part needs clarification:
You declare weapon 1 targets A
Weapon 2 targets A
Weapons 3-4-5 etc Target W

If target A is a transport with passengers and gets destroyed by weapon 1, does weapon 2 inflict hits -> wounds on the passengers or does it simply "fail to fire"?

Exactly.


There is no provision in the rules for Superheavy models targeting multiple units, other than to say you can.

If you follow the steps as outlined in the Shooting section, you can't choose a new target unless you treat each weapons system as a separate unit.

I agree that logically, selecting all targets initially and then resolving them in turn makes sense, but RAW it doesn't work like that, and I don't have a hard time that it wasn't RAI either (probably 50/50 on that)

 azreal13 wrote:
If you follow the steps as outlined in the Shooting section, you can't choose a new target unless you treat each weapons system as a separate unit.

With a standard unit you must pick all of the unit's (one) target before selecting weapons.

You're simply selecting multiple targets instead of the usual one (as the SH rules state you may fire them at seperate targets) and following the standard sequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
I agree that logically, selecting all targets initially and then resolving them in turn makes sense, but RAW it doesn't work like that

Picking a new target after completly resolving one weapon is far more against RaW that picking all targets at the same time.

Either it is or it isn't, to argue degrees is silly.

Logical or not, choosing all of a superheavy's targets before firing any weapons is not RAW. We are explicitly told to resolve all of a weapons effects before moving on to the next, and nowhere are we told how this interacts with a unit that is able to select multiple targets.

 azreal13 wrote:
Logical or not, choosing all of a superheavy's targets before firing any weapons is not RAW.

I disagree there. I think it is Raw.

We're told the SH can fire it's weapons at different targets.
There is a step for picking a target.

The rule states "Choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at"
Vs.
"..it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired"

Clasic Basic Vs. Advance

One target becomes multiple targets.

The shooting sequence works exactly as it should with no changes. No rules broken.
Picking a new target after resolving a weapon, THAT most definitley breaks rules.

Perfectly logical, probably HIWPI.

Totally unsupported by rules.

 azreal13 wrote:
Perfectly logical, probably HIWPI.

Totally unsupported by rules.

Which part?

Basic Vs. Advance?

The rules quote about different targets?

Step 2 when you pick a target?

 azreal13 wrote:
I don't have the book to hand to check

And how can you tell it's unsupported?

By all means disagree, but if you think I'm wrong please show where you think I'm wrong.

 azreal13 wrote:
Perfectly logical, probably HIWPI.

Totally unsupported by rules.

Except where he supported it with rules. Unless you're saying he made up the words between the quotation marks?

Because I posted the original post several hours ago, and now have it to hand?

Regardless nowhere does it explain how to target multiple units with one unit's firing, so you're only assuming that is how it works.

The Split Fire special rule specifically forbids the targeting of a unit from a destroyed transport, and specifically says the split firing weapon fires first and is fully resolved, before the rest of the unit chooses a target, other than a unit on board a destroyed transport.

So the closest analogy we have to Superheavy firing instructs us to resolve one weapon before selecting a new target and resolving the remainder.

So almost identical process, except with a specific exclusion that the Superheavy rules are lacking, and if you can call if that's an oversight or RAI, please go ahead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Perfectly logical, probably HIWPI.

Totally unsupported by rules.

Except where he supported it with rules. Unless you're saying he made up the words between the quotation marks?

Except those quotes don't refer to timing, all they do is prove that a Superheavy can fire at multiple units, whereas normal units must select only one target, they're rules, I just don't see how they're relevant?

 azreal13 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Perfectly logical, probably HIWPI.

Totally unsupported by rules.

Except where he supported it with rules. Unless you're saying he made up the words between the quotation marks?

Except those quotes don't refer to timing, all they do is prove that a Superheavy can fire at multiple units, whereas normal units must select only one target, they're rules, I just don't see how they're relevant?

Except they do.
"Choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at." First sentence under Step 2 of the shooting sequence - absolutely has to do with timing.
"and it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired." What rule does that contradict? Why, the other one I quoted. So it also has to do with timing.

The super heavy rules state you fire at different targets.
There is a step for picking a target.

Basic Vs. advance is in fact a rule.

So selecting multiple targets instead of one is valid, and breaks no rules. It follows one.

Your suggestion breaks the rules for Step 1 and 7, and additionally invents steps of picking more targets after a weapon has been resolved.

rigeld2 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Perfectly logical, probably HIWPI.

Totally unsupported by rules.

Except where he supported it with rules. Unless you're saying he made up the words between the quotation marks?

Except those quotes don't refer to timing, all they do is prove that a Superheavy can fire at multiple units, whereas normal units must select only one target, they're rules, I just don't see how they're relevant?

Except they do.
"Choose a single enemy unit for them to shoot at." First sentence under Step 2 of the shooting sequence - absolutely has to do with timing.
"and it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired." What rule does that contradict? Why, the other one I quoted. So it also has to do with timing.

Because the rules also say to resolve the firing of one weapon before moving on to the next.

If the first weapon explodes or wrecks a transport, can you then target the unit that disembarked?

Or, to out it another way, why do the rules for Split Fire specifically prohibit it, if the shooting rules, correctly followed, would disallow it anyway?

Because the normal rules don't allow it. Only the split fire rules do which you are not using with super heavies. Rigeld2 and grendel083 are correct.

 azreal13 wrote:
Because the rules also say to resolve the firing of one weapon before moving on to the next.

And that's steps 3-6, nothing to do with step 2.

If the first weapon explodes or wrecks a transport, can you then target the unit that disembarked?

Nope. You're never given permission to change your target.

Or, to out it another way, why do the rules for Split Fire specifically prohibit it, if the shooting rules, correctly followed, would disallow it anyway?

Because Split Fire is worded differently and doesn't apply here.

 azreal13 wrote:
Or, to out it another way, why do the rules for Split Fire specifically prohibit it, if the shooting rules, correctly followed, would disallow it anyway?

Split fire has you completely resolve a shooting attack before picking another target.
The SH rules have no such wording.

Picking several targets at step two instead completely resolving the attack then picking again, would be unsupported, if there wasn't a rule that covered these situations. Basic Vs. Advance covers it nicely.

So you're saying a SH selects a target (step 2) then selects a weapon (step 3) for each weapon before moving on to roll to hit (step 4?)

I can't say I don't see the logic, but nowhere in the book does it say to do this, and it does conflict with the resolution of each weapons fire before moving on to the next.

It does say to do this. The rules for superheavies say that you can choose multiple targets, not that you use the split fire rules. There is also no conflict with resolving each weapon's firing before moving onto the next as choosing a target is not part of resolving the weapon's firing.

 azreal13 wrote:
and it does conflict with the resolution of each weapons fire before moving on to the next.

How so? A normal unit following the standard sequence can fire multiple weapon types at a single target.

You select the weapon group, and resolve it at the chosen target.
Select next weapon group and resolve it at the chosen target.

The only diffence is you have different targets selected for each weapon, as per the SH rules.

I am a new player, but how my local group has been handling this issue is you declare what each weapon is firing at before rolling. The assumption being that the SH is a unit and a unit must declare all it's attacks at once unless another rule says otherwise. The question I have is do the remaining weapon attacks of a destroyed transport target the unit inside? Or does nothing happen because the vehicle was destroyed because the selected target is gone.

As the embarked Unit is a completely different Unit, one which was not a target of the attack, there would need to be some specific Rule granting permission to transfer the remainder of the attacks to said Unit.
Simply destroying the Transport is not enough, as the remaining Attacks are still targeting the Transport and not the embarked Unit.

JinxDragon wrote:
As the embarked Unit is a completely different Unit, one which was not a target of the attack, there would need to be some specific Rule granting permission to transfer the remainder of the attacks to said Unit.
Simply destroying the Transport is not enough, as the remaining Attacks are still targeting the Transport and not the embarked Unit.

That's what I thought, but wanted to make sure. Most say the rule doesn't make much sense though if you think about it lol. But thems the rules.