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This is the HAL from Cyberdine Japan





It detects muscle electrical impulses under the skin and responds accordingly. In this case, is the black carapace of a Space Marine really required?

It allows them to interface with power armor better. So yes, it is necessary.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It allows them to interface with power armor better. So yes, it is necessary.

But the sensors on the HAL work pretty fine too.

In this case the SoB won't suffer that much of a deficit when using their power armour.

The Imperium =/= Our world. If it doesn't exist already, on a STC or the Emprah didn't invent it then it's heresy to even try and think of new inventions. Science is a mystical, dangerous and all but lost art form only known to a very select few individuals. And even they aren't making new discoveries/technology nearly as often as we are.

It depends, how fast are the reaction times of this HAL?

I doubt it can match the Black Carapace in this case.

Black carapace isn't necessary, per se (see Sororitas, no black carapace, still bad-ass), but it allows them to interface, react faster, tell with a thought how low their oxygen is instead of having to check a dial, etc.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Black carapace isn't necessary, per se (see Sororitas, no black carapace, still bad-ass), but it allows them to interface, react faster, tell with a thought how low their oxygen is instead of having to check a dial, etc.

See, this is the one issue I have with the SIsters... the carapace *is* neccessary, that's the whole point. As such, Sisters should be wearing 4+ armor, not 3+ power armor. (And, you know, be far cheaper due to that, but that's a whole other quibble.)

The adding of the carapace is what turns a scout into a true marine and is *the* defining biological bit that they have.

An dthey only grow it to interface with armor.

Yes, it meansd armour is almost second skin, close vents with a thought and react at a speed even the sisters cannot dream to match as one with armour not just clad in ceramite plates.

Necessary? Not strictly, no.

Very useful? Yes,

Note that a Space Marine needs the Black Carapace to use his Power Armour to its maximum capabilities, but the armour itself does not need this implant in order to function. The Sisters of Battle, for example, as well as some Inquisitors, also wear Power Armour. However, since their central nervous systems are not linked directly to their armour's Machine Spirit as a Space Marine would be, their Power Armour is markedly less efficient at providing protection or allowing them to maneuver in combat than that of an Astartes.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Carapace

their Power Armour is markedly less efficient at providing protection

Ignore this, isn't true. It still provides the same amount of protection. What the black carapace does is allow power armour to function as muscle/skin in a sense. Inquisitors and Sororitas never have Initiative higher then 4. This is because their power armour has to respond to outside stimuli, such as the flexing of muscles. It requires a force to react against. The marines armour is linked directly to his nervous system and responds to the same nerve impulse, at the same time, that moves his arm.

Space marine Scouts wear scout (4+) armour for a variety of reasons, none of which are linked to the Black Carapace (Space Wolves are an example). They use scout armour because they are a recon force, power armour is a relic in itself, and they need to develop the idea of 'boots on the floor' fighting, rather then 'I'm an invincible god-machine' beliefs.

Sororitas Power Armour actually uses something very like the HAL system.

The difference between that and the Black Carapace is that something like HAL doesn't allow for a transfer of kinaesthetic senses.

The Sororitas' armour moves when they move, but it gives them no feedback.

The Black Carapace literally allows the Astartes to feel where their armour is. Try doing anything while wearing a thick pair of woolen gloves. Even though the gloves don't weigh anything and don't resist your fingers' movements, you're still more clumsy in the gloves because your fingers are bigger than they feel like they should be.

HAL turns power armour into those woolen gloves. The Black Carapace makes it like you're not wearing armour at all, your hand is just that size.

The Black Carapace is one method of linking with power armor, but not the only method. Whether or not it has any particular advantages over the other ones hasn't been shown to me in the lore.

 Melissia wrote:
The Black Carapace is one method of linking with power armor, but not the only method. Whether or not it has any particular advantages over the other ones hasn't been shown to me in the lore.

If you're going to troll or try to spread false information, you shouldn't try to do so against what's common knowledge. The Black Carapace is explicitly better than any other system of linking up with the armor. The Black Carapace is explicitly the best form of uplink with Imperial Power Armor as it allows the wearer to use it as a second skin where they directly feel the environment through the armor. Plus it improves the strength of the wearer along with providing more advanced life support capabilities.

 Melissia wrote:
The Black Carapace is one method of linking with power armor, but not the only method. Whether or not it has any particular advantages over the other ones hasn't been shown to me in the lore.

I think the Black Carapace would have to be superior to the other methods in some respect, or there would be no point in using it over other methods. I mean, it has many clear disadvantages:

It requires invasive surgical implantation
It alters the bearer in a permanent, significant way (large plates under the skin, implant plugs, etc).
It requires a non-trivial degree of maintenance of the user (rather than just maintenance of the armor).

The differences between Black Carapace-linked power armor and other power armor might not be significant enough to show up in the TT game (just like all humans are S3, from old goat navigators to Catachans), but I would think that if Marines performed every function of being a marine just as well without it, it would be eliminated as an interface.

It might be that the only benefit to the Black Carapace is that you can actually live in your armor for days, weeks, or months. That's not a particularly attractive prospect, but when you're a psycho-conditioned murder-monger, it might be enough!


As an aside, it also appears that maybe having a Black Carapace is a prerequisite for being able to be implanted in a Dreadnought. Kind of a contingency plan?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The Black Carapace is one method of linking with power armor, but not the only method. Whether or not it has any particular advantages over the other ones hasn't been shown to me in the lore.

If you're going to troll or try to spread false information, you shouldn't try to do so against what's common knowledge. The Black Carapace is explicitly better than any other system of linking up with the armor. The Black Carapace is explicitly the best form of uplink with Imperial Power Armor as it allows the wearer to use it as a second skin where they directly feel the environment through the armor. Plus it improves the strength of the wearer along with providing more advanced life support capabilities.

Calm down dude, lol.

The Warhammer 40,000 Compilation (page 27) gave Space Marines a +1 to hit in HtH to represent, '...the rather special way that Space Marine Power Armour is constructed to interact with the enhanced Space Marine body.' This bonus was exclusive to Space Marines when wearing Space Marine Power Armour and specifically not for other types of Power Armour or troops.

Da Butcha wrote:
I think the Black Carapace would have to be superior to the other methods in some respect, or there would be no point in using it over other methods

The primary reason it's used is "GW thinks it sounds cool", just like Chainswords

But the Mechanicus is capable of having mind-links to armor that allows them to treat it as a second skin as well (which they use in their dragonskin power armor). Which one is better is probably up to the individual case, I'd think. Black Carapace is sort of biotech, so it probably requires less upkeep or degrades slower than the Mechanicus' cybernetic implants, that might be the reason why Astartes use it.

Though in the end, mind-linking to machines is pretty basic tech in the Imperium according to the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Only War books. The Mechanicus stuff is just better at it, so I imagine the BC is of similar superior quality, though I do NOT imagine it as better than high-level Mechanicus implants, where the user is capable of literally BECOMING the machine.

If you're going to troll or try to spread false information, you shouldn't try to do so against what's common knowledge. The Black Carapace is explicitly better than any other system of linking up with the armor. The Black Carapace is explicitly the best form of uplink with Imperial Power Armor as it allows the wearer to use it as a second skin where they directly feel the environment through the armor. Plus it improves the strength of the wearer along with providing more advanced life support capabilities.

The BC is not responsible for the strength-enhancing features of PA, that's the "electrically-motivated fiber bundles" that is present in all models of PA.

 Psienesis wrote:

If you're going to troll or try to spread false information, you shouldn't try to do so against what's common knowledge. The Black Carapace is explicitly better than any other system of linking up with the armor. The Black Carapace is explicitly the best form of uplink with Imperial Power Armor as it allows the wearer to use it as a second skin where they directly feel the environment through the armor. Plus it improves the strength of the wearer along with providing more advanced life support capabilities.

The BC is not responsible for the strength-enhancing features of PA, that's the "electrically-motivated fiber bundles" that is present in all models of PA.

I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure that Deathwatch mentions it increasing the strength wearer in power armor by providing more efficient control.

I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure that Deathwatch mentions it increasing the strength wearer in power armor by providing more efficient control.

DW Space Marine PA grants the same STR bonus that other PA of its weight-class grants other, non-SM characters in the other games.

Yes, power armor does increase strength. But I should point out that Astartes have Str4 even without power armor, so most of their enhanced strength comes from something else.

Namely the Biscopea organ and drugs. Lots and lots of drugs.

Though Game play =/= Fluff. in such a way that the strength bonus is minor.

Another part i could see it being important is if the limb underneath was damaged he would be able to use the suit like a regular limb at speed

Aren't scouts S4, or was that changed?

 Melissia wrote:
Aren't scouts S4, or was that changed?

They are ST4

Im just under the assumption that GW rounded up 3.5 to 4 while SM would be 4

There are body gloves that Inquisitors wear that allow direct neural interface with their armour

"She was dressed in a skin tight bodyglove...............this one was midnight black and festoned with sockets and truncated power cables. It just had to be the dermal interface layer for her power armour......"

Yeah, that's how other people's PA functions. The BC is an upgrade to that form of "plug suit".

A Chapter can function if they lack some of the more situational implants, like the acid spit for example. Losing the geneseed to create the Black Carapace would probably doom them. Their PA is built to be operated that way, giving them an edge over other PA users. Without it? While some advanced functions could probably be wired to run off signals from one of those body gloves others would have to be activated by switch or vocal command, costing precious time.

The Chapter would be crippled. Kind of like a lower-rank race car driver or what have you - he might be just as good as the guy who always wins but his team just doesn't have as good a car for him.

according to the RPG power armor that isn't operated via the black carqapeice the user is more bulky and treated as being bigger etc, the black carapeice remvoes these restrictions. it notes that the SOBs power armor is actually a lighter power armor, that likewise isn't bulky but also offers less protection. (which seems fair, their armor is a LOT smaller then SM armor)

Inquisitorial power armor is also less bulky, though most martial inquisitors have far more advanced armor than Marines or Sisters do.

 Melissia wrote:
Inquisitorial power armor is also less bulky, though most martial inquisitors have far more advanced armor than Marines or Sisters do.

What book says this, by the way?