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I keep running into a situation where my opponent wrecks a chimera, my guardsmen deploy behind it, and then they fire a separate squad with a blast weapon against the guardsmen. Almost always, the majority of the squad is obscured behind the vehicle, but what happens if a blast weapon hits and inflicts more wounds than there are visible models (i.e. the wounds spill into the guys obscured by the tank)? Ruleswise it seems plausible to say that none of the obscured models can be killed, as read below, but gamewise that's a tough sell if someone just landed a pie plate on the squad.

“Out of Sight
If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool ​
are lost.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer 40,000 (Interactive Edition).” Games Workshop, 2014. iBooks. https://itun.es/us/kNVz0.l

Unless the weapon firing is barrage, the models out of line of sight are never considered viable for the purpose of wound allocation. (Except for look out sir, then I think they can still be selected to take the hit for a character who is visible).

You can place the template wherever you like, and generate as many hits as possible, but come wound allocation it is only the models you can see that will be removed.

Check pg 158 under Blast. Blast weapons are given specific permission to allocate wounds to models that are out of range and/or line of sight.

Make sure to read the entry in its entirety. There are fragments of the rule scattered throughout, which seems appropriate for a blast rule.

Ok yeah, it has changed since last edition. Looks like your guardsmen are toast.

You are indeed allowed to allocate wounds out of sight, but some believe that the exact wording:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool ​
are lost."

Empties your wound pool before they can be allocated.

This will re-open a debate.

 BlackTalos wrote:
You are indeed allowed to allocate wounds out of sight, but some believe that the exact wording:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool ​
are lost."

Empties your wound pool before they can be allocated.

This will re-open a debate.

I though about this too. It is not explicitly stated in the rule book. However the blast section does include this line:

"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special
rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of
any models from the attacking unit."

This would seem to indicate that blast weapons can indeed cause casualties on a target out of line of sight.

Indeed, everything would point that way, but your example again is "allocation" and if the Pool is empty in the step before it, it always falls through.

I agree and play as you would say, but pre-empting possible "this is wrong" comments and giving awareness to the other side of the debate.

The problem with 'Ignore Line of Sight' Rules has always been a lack of detail, they have never singled out exactly when they take effect or exactly what is being over-turned.

It reminds me a little of the old 'one use only' Special Rule, where the Authors believed the intent of such a Rule is so obvious that they chose not to even write the body of the Rule itself... take a look, there is no One Use Only Special Rule in 6th Edition. While that one never caused any major issues on the table-top because they where correct, it is pretty damn obvious, within a Rule system it was a terrible thing to do. Rules are more rigid and structured, if one is left poorly or completely undefined it creates all sorts of problems, so I don't foresee the issues with 'Ignore Line of Sight' vanishing until one of the Authors pen a more complete set of Rules for such.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Indeed, everything would point that way, but your example again is "allocation" and if the Pool is empty in the step before it, it always falls through.

That's the same line of reasoning that leads to the Seeker Missile paradox (they're allowed to shoot at stuff out of LOS, but are not allowed to allocate wounds out of LOS).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
You are indeed allowed to allocate wounds out of sight, but some believe that the exact wording:

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool ​
are lost."

Empties your wound pool before they can be allocated.

This will re-open a debate.

I though about this too. It is not explicitly stated in the rule book. However the blast section does include this line:

"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special
rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of
any models from the attacking unit."

This would seem to indicate that blast weapons can indeed cause casualties on a target out of line of sight.

Thank you for the clarification. Now, if the model is out of line of sight, does it get a cover save against the attack?

 TheSilo wrote:
Now, if the model is out of line of sight, does it get a cover save against the attack?

Is the model at least 25% obscured from the point of view of the firer? Yep (assuming just Blast and not Barrage).

 Quanar wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Now, if the model is out of line of sight, does it get a cover save against the attack?

Is the model at least 25% obscured from the point of view of the firer? Yep (assuming just Blast and not Barrage).

Right, blast not barrage. It's just strange, cause the model is 100% obscured. That's the work-around we used in the game, I felt cheesy using Look Out Sir to pass the wound onto out of sight models and taking a cover save, but I guess that's the balance for being to hit models out of LOS.

Given the wording of both rules it would seem that while there are models still on range and los you must allocate to the closest model regardless of range and los. but once there are no models in range and los the pool is emptied.

I've read this thread twice, referred back to the book, and I'm still not sure I understand. :(. I need a "w40k Line of Sight for Dummies" book.

majorhavok wrote:
I've read this thread twice, referred back to the book, and I'm still not sure I understand. :(. I need a "w40k Line of Sight for Dummies" book.

Don't we all.

 Bausk wrote:
Given the wording of both rules it would seem that while there are models still on range and los you must allocate to the closest model regardless of range and los. but once there are no models in range and los the pool is emptied.

Bausk has it right. Models out-of-LOS can have wounds allocated to them, provided there is a Wound left in the wound pool, AND that model is closest to the firing unit. As soon as all model in LOS are removed, the Wound Pool empties per the "Out of Sight" rule, so the remaining models are safe. Moral of the story - if you can't keep all the models behind the chimera, make sure the ones in LOS are closest to potential firing unit - they get killed first, and the ones behind cover can't take wound anymore once the guys with their heads sticking out are toast.

Snapshot wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Given the wording of both rules it would seem that while there are models still on range and los you must allocate to the closest model regardless of range and los. but once there are no models in range and los the pool is emptied.

Bausk has it right. Models out-of-LOS can have wounds allocated to them, provided there is a Wound left in the wound pool, AND that model is closest to the firing unit. As soon as all model in LOS are removed, the Wound Pool empties per the "Out of Sight" rule, so the remaining models are safe. Moral of the story - if you can't keep all the models behind the chimera, make sure the ones in LOS are closest to potential firing unit - they get killed first, and the ones behind cover can't take wound anymore once the guys with their heads sticking out are toast.

What?

I understand what you're saying, but how does that make sense from a game perspective?

Basically lets say you can see someone further back in the unit. but not the actual closest model. With blast you would be required to remove models that are closer out of LOS before you removed models in LOS

Let me explain it:
Hit phase: place blast marker in sight of unit you wish to hit
Wound phase: if scatter it hit everything under marker regardless of line of sight

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

majorhavok wrote:
I've read this thread twice, referred back to the book, and I'm still not sure I understand. :(. I need a "w40k Line of Sight for Dummies" book.

Don't we all.

No, just GW, maybe then they can write rules that don't conflict.

So the trick is to get to a point where you have LOS to the guy in the back and nobody else. This will minimize return fire and ensure that your blast weapons will wound everyone.


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So in this model, the tank could drop a blast marker on the X 2nd from the right, and although it would cover the one to the left, it couldnt wound them since it is out of LOS.

Technically yes because of the order of operations involving the pool emptying. However I dont think you will find many people playing this way

If your guardsmen are being hit by a blast weapon and the marker hits 9 guys, four of which can be seen by the firing unit, then all 9 are wounded, then you can make saves on all 9 wounds. You then fail all nine saves so 9 guys die, the 4 that can be seen and 5 more that can't.

There is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight. It's not ambiguous, nor impossible to garner from the rules. It's specific permission granted by the blast rule section.

Lungpickle wrote:
If your guardsmen are being hit by a blast weapon and the marker hits 9 guys, four of which can be seen by the firing unit, then all 9 are wounded, then you can make saves on all 9 wounds. You then fail all nine saves so 9 guys die, the 4 that can be seen and 5 more that can't.

There is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight. It's not ambiguous, nor impossible to garner from the rules. It's specific permission granted by the blast rule section.

Then quote it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Then quote it.

"Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight."
"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

That second line was added in 7th edition, and I interpret it as explicit permission to apply wounds to units out of LOS.

Lungpickle wrote:
If your guardsmen are being hit by a blast weapon and the marker hits 9 guys, four of which can be seen by the firing unit, then all 9 are wounded, then you can make saves on all 9 wounds. You then fail all nine saves so 9 guys die, the 4 that can be seen and 5 more that can't.

There is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight. It's not ambiguous, nor impossible to garner from the rules. It's specific permission granted by the blast rule section.

DanielBeaver wrote:"Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight."
"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."


These "citation needed" responses are so lazy.

So please, explain in that quote where "there is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight." Remember, it must not be ambiguous.
That's what I asked him to quote. He made a false statement which you've failed to back up.

These assumptions that others just want to be lazy are insulting.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Then quote it.

"Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight."
"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

That second line was added in 7th edition, and I interpret it as explicit permission to apply wounds to units out of LOS.

Except your citation does nothing about being required to empty the wound pool when there are no longer models in line of sight.

It just says that you can wound models out of line of sight. So if out of LOS models are closer they can take wounds, however if out of LOS models are further than you empty the wound pool before it can be allocated to them.

"there is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight."

It's more than just permission - you are required to wound those who are out of sight if they happen to be the closest models.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

"there is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight."

It's more than just permission - you are required to wound those who are out of sight if they happen to be the closest models.

And how, exactly, does that override the Out of Sight rules? Please, cite the rule that does so. You have asserted it exists and mocked me when I asked for it. Produce it.

Are we arguing about the same thing? My original post in this thread was agreeing with this:

Lungpickle wrote:
If your guardsmen are being hit by a blast weapon and the marker hits 9 guys, four of which can be seen by the firing unit, then all 9 are wounded, then you can make saves on all 9 wounds. You then fail all nine saves so 9 guys die, the 4 that can be seen and 5 more that can't.

There is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight. It's not ambiguous, nor impossible to garner from the rules. It's specific permission granted by the blast rule section.

You target a unit of guardsmen, some of whom are not in LOS. The general rule is that you can't allocate wounds to the guardsmen who are out of sight. But blasts have the special rule that under some circumstances (like in the example), they can hit and allocate wounds to models that are out of sight:
"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."