Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Are we arguing about the same thing? My original post in this thread was agreeing with this:

Lungpickle wrote:
If your guardsmen are being hit by a blast weapon and the marker hits 9 guys, four of which can be seen by the firing unit, then all 9 are wounded, then you can make saves on all 9 wounds. You then fail all nine saves so 9 guys die, the 4 that can be seen and 5 more that can't.

There is specific permission to wound and kill those out of line of sight. It's not ambiguous, nor impossible to garner from the rules. It's specific permission granted by the blast rule section.

You target a unit of guardsmen, some of whom are not in LOS. The general rule is that you can't allocate wounds to the guardsmen who are out of sight. But blasts have the special rule that under some circumstances (like in the example), they can hit and allocate wounds to models that are out of sight:
"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

That only works if there are visible models in the target unit.

Once you do not have any visible models in the target unit the wound pool empties.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That only works if there are visible models in the target unit.

Once you do not have any visible models in the target unit the wound pool empties.

I see what you mean now. That interacts strangely with the blast rules - makes me wonder if the GW rules writers are even aware of that quirk.

Given the fact it makes all 'Ignore Line of Sight' Weapons useless, doubtful the Authors have given it enough attention....

Full Rules quote:

"When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle. The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon’s maximum range. You cannot place the blast marker so that the base or hull of any friendly model is even partially under it.
The large area affected by the blast means it’s going to be very hard to miss completely. Nonetheless, the shot might not land exactly where intended. Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer’s Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters, to a minimum of 0". Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon’s maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat)[. If the shot scatters so that the hole in the centre of the marker is beyond the table’s edge, the shot is a complete miss and is discarded.
Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight.
Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

The wound pool is never emptied due to LoS, because the blast rule states that "any" wounds from a "blast weapon" must be allocated to the "closest model", "even" if it is out of LoS. In the above 9 Guardsmen example if 9 wounds were caused. Line of Sight is not a factor with allocation.

Sordyn wrote:
The wound pool is never emptied due to LoS, because the blast rule states that "any" wounds from a "blast weapon" must be allocated to the "closest model", "even" if it is out of LoS. In the above 9 Guardsmen example if 9 wounds were caused. Line of Sight is not a factor with allocation.

Correct - any wounds must be allocated.
What happens to the wound pool when there are no models in LoS?

Out of Sight wrote:If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool ​
are lost.

For those that forget...

But as Jinx points out Rigeld, i personally believe that it is a broken mechanic even if that is the strict RaW....

 BlackTalos wrote:

Out of Sight wrote:If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool ​
are lost.

For those that forget...

But as Jinx points out Rigeld, i personally believe that it is a broken mechanic even if that is the strict RaW....

As I've said before, HIWPI is that anything said to ignore LoS doesn't clear the pool.
Blasts do.

Its the level of technical reading of the rules that we know GW wouldnt even think of.

RAW yes, would I ever play it that way? Only if my opponent was being a giant douche and had already ruined the game for me.

Ok, so do models out of LOS get cover saves?

 TheSilo wrote:
Ok, so do models out of LOS get cover saves?

Absolutely. Are they obscured by more than 25%? (Yes, 100%)

I'm not sure why folks get upset about the RAW meaning of the rule. You DO get to kill stuff out-of-sight, but there are limits. Barrage on the other hand gets every opportunity to kill everything hiding behind the tank, if the centre of the Blast falls right.

Seems pretty clear that they say the shot can scatter and hit models out of sight and range. Think about it logically; an explosion can go around a corner even if you can't see around that corner.

You just can't initially shoot at an out of LOS target, and weapons that hit normally can't hit targets out of LOS so that if there are wounds left but no more targets in LOS the pool is emptied.

You need to think of the line of sight of a blast weapon as coming from the centre of the blast marker not the model that fired the weapon. Like barrage weapons, most of the time with barrage the firing model has no LOS. Should they not wound?

I have never actually seen this argued before.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:
The wound pool is never emptied due to LoS, because the blast rule states that "any" wounds from a "blast weapon" must be allocated to the "closest model", "even" if it is out of LoS. In the above 9 Guardsmen example if 9 wounds were caused. Line of Sight is not a factor with allocation.

Correct - any wounds must be allocated.
What happens to the wound pool when there are no models in LoS?

Nothing happens to the wound pool as you always allocate blast wounds to the closest model to the firing unit, it does not matter if the firing model can see closest model or not. Even if you roll your wounds all at once, they are still resolved sequentially to closest model(s) to that unit.
In an exteme example say there is a unit of troops hiding behind a piece of LoS blocking terrain in a V shape and the firing unit was infront of it and only one member of the target unit is visible say on the far right and only that model is covered by the blast, the wound would still be allocated to a member of the target unit at a closer range.

Sordyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:
The wound pool is never emptied due to LoS, because the blast rule states that "any" wounds from a "blast weapon" must be allocated to the "closest model", "even" if it is out of LoS. In the above 9 Guardsmen example if 9 wounds were caused. Line of Sight is not a factor with allocation.

Correct - any wounds must be allocated.
What happens to the wound pool when there are no models in LoS?

Nothing happens to the wound pool as you always allocate blast wounds to the closest model to the firing unit, it does not matter if the firing model can see closest model or not. Even if you roll your wounds all at once, they are still resolved sequentially to closest model(s) to that unit.
In an exteme example say there is a unit of troops hiding behind a piece of LoS blocking terrain in a V shape and the firing unit was infront of it and only one member of the target unit is visible say on the far right and only that model is covered by the blast, the wound would still be allocated to a member of the target unit at a closer range.

So you're just going to ignore the Out of Sight rules?
That's cool. It's not what the rules say, but whatever.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:
The wound pool is never emptied due to LoS, because the blast rule states that "any" wounds from a "blast weapon" must be allocated to the "closest model", "even" if it is out of LoS. In the above 9 Guardsmen example if 9 wounds were caused. Line of Sight is not a factor with allocation.

Correct - any wounds must be allocated.
What happens to the wound pool when there are no models in LoS?

Nothing happens to the wound pool as you always allocate blast wounds to the closest model to the firing unit, it does not matter if the firing model can see closest model or not. Even if you roll your wounds all at once, they are still resolved sequentially to closest model(s) to that unit.
In an exteme example say there is a unit of troops hiding behind a piece of LoS blocking terrain in a V shape and the firing unit was infront of it and only one member of the target unit is visible say on the far right and only that model is covered by the blast, the wound would still be allocated to a member of the target unit at a closer range.

So you're just going to ignore the Out of Sight rules?
That's cool. It's not what the rules say, but whatever.

I am at a loss for words.... what part of "any wounds from a blast weapon are allocated to the closest model to the firing unit even if the model is out of line of sight to the firing model" is causing you a problem, non blast wounds are emptied when there are no models left or models are out of range or out of line of sight, but blast wounds are handled differently.

Sordyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:
The wound pool is never emptied due to LoS, because the blast rule states that "any" wounds from a "blast weapon" must be allocated to the "closest model", "even" if it is out of LoS. In the above 9 Guardsmen example if 9 wounds were caused. Line of Sight is not a factor with allocation.

Correct - any wounds must be allocated.
What happens to the wound pool when there are no models in LoS?

Nothing happens to the wound pool as you always allocate blast wounds to the closest model to the firing unit, it does not matter if the firing model can see closest model or not. Even if you roll your wounds all at once, they are still resolved sequentially to closest model(s) to that unit.
In an exteme example say there is a unit of troops hiding behind a piece of LoS blocking terrain in a V shape and the firing unit was infront of it and only one member of the target unit is visible say on the far right and only that model is covered by the blast, the wound would still be allocated to a member of the target unit at a closer range.

So you're just going to ignore the Out of Sight rules?
That's cool. It's not what the rules say, but whatever.

I am at a loss for words.... what part of "any wounds from a blast weapon are allocated to the closest model to the firing unit even if the model is out of line of sight to the firing model" is causing you a problem, non blast wounds are emptied when there are no models left or models are out of range or out of line of sight, but blast wounds are handled differently.

And have you cited a rule showing their difference as far as emptying the pool when there are no models in line of sight? I haven't seen one.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sordyn wrote:
The wound pool is never emptied due to LoS, because the blast rule states that "any" wounds from a "blast weapon" must be allocated to the "closest model", "even" if it is out of LoS. In the above 9 Guardsmen example if 9 wounds were caused. Line of Sight is not a factor with allocation.

Correct - any wounds must be allocated.
What happens to the wound pool when there are no models in LoS?

Nothing happens to the wound pool as you always allocate blast wounds to the closest model to the firing unit, it does not matter if the firing model can see closest model or not. Even if you roll your wounds all at once, they are still resolved sequentially to closest model(s) to that unit.
In an exteme example say there is a unit of troops hiding behind a piece of LoS blocking terrain in a V shape and the firing unit was infront of it and only one member of the target unit is visible say on the far right and only that model is covered by the blast, the wound would still be allocated to a member of the target unit at a closer range.

So you're just going to ignore the Out of Sight rules?
That's cool. It's not what the rules say, but whatever.

I am at a loss for words.... what part of "any wounds from a blast weapon are allocated to the closest model to the firing unit even if the model is out of line of sight to the firing model" is causing you a problem, non blast wounds are emptied when there are no models left or models are out of range or out of line of sight, but blast wounds are handled differently.

And have you cited a rule showing their difference as far as emptying the pool when there are no models in line of sight? I haven't seen one.

ok, ok.... First of all Blast is a universal special rule, special rules are exceptions to the standard rules. Hence the word special.
Page 35 of the Warhammer 7th edition states :
Out of Sight
If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must be allocated to the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Page 158 of the Warhammer 7th edition, Blast special rule:
Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll to Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by a weapon with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.

The key phrase here is that wounds MUST be allocated to the closest model regardless of line of sight which clearly contravenes and because it is a special rule trumps the normal rules for Line of Sight wound allocation, and the "If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost clause is effectively ignored as ANY wounds MUST be allocated to the closest model.

Oh and if you need proof that special rules overwrite basic rules it's covered under Basic Versus Advanced on page 13.

The way I have always played it is that Blasts may wound and kill models that are not in LOS. Why?

From a 'logic' standpoint...it's an explosion. So, why wouldn't the explosion hit the guy standing right beside the guy that is in the open, despite being out of sight of the actual firer?

The Blast rules seem to use a replacement effect over the normal LOS rules. They do not follow the traditional 'you must see to hit'. Otherwise, Blast weapons would be utter trash. The point is the tank just fired a shell at the guy in the open, and anyone around him has the chance to be hit, though gets cover *Unlike barrage, which literally drop on top of you*.

I'm not quite sure how this is so confusing to people. I'll compare this to Heroclix again. Characters have the ability to replace normal rules with special powers. A character cannot normally fire at a character that is behind another character due to being out of LOS. But, if they have Improved Targeting (Characters)...they CAN fire at a character behind another because the Improved Targeting ignores specific portions of LOS, specifically other characters.

So, NORMALLY, LOS states you can only wound those you can see. Blast states you CAN wound people you can't see. Blast ignores LOS's rules for that.

Trying to find a 'loophole' is silly. Yes, GW isn't the best at writing their rules as they mean them to be.But Christ, this whole thread is silly.

rigeld2''s point is that the Blast rule doesn't give you permission to ignore the part of Out of Sight that says to empty the pool if all targets are hidden from the firer. Blast overrides one specific part of Wound Allocation, namely that you are now able (must, in fact) to allocate a wound to a hidden model if he is the closest to the firer.

To people you are trying to inject realism into it, stop! It is game mechanic to find out who can be killed. Killing is a 3-step process: Hit, Wound, Allocate. You can't overlook rules in one step unless given permission to do so - well you can, but it isn't RAW.

Again, if you want to get stuff hidden from view, but a Barrage weapon.

Snapshot wrote:
rigeld2''s point is that the Blast rule doesn't give you permission to ignore the part of Out of Sight that says to empty the pool if all targets are hidden from the firer. Blast overrides one specific part of Wound Allocation, namely that you are now able (must, in fact) to allocate a wound to a hidden model if he is the closest to the firer.

To people you are trying to inject realism into it, stop! It is game mechanic to find out who can be killed. Killing is a 3-step process: Hit, Wound, Allocate. You can't overlook rules in one step unless given permission to do so - well you can, but it isn't RAW.

Again, if you want to get stuff hidden from view, but a Barrage weapon.

You're also ignoring that Blast is a special rule, meaning it does not follow the normal rules for ordinary weapons. You don't use the rules for normal weapons when it has it's own rule set. It wounds models behind cover. Pure and simple. You still get saves as usual. Otherwise even Barrage would be useless since you're plugging your ears to the fact that Special Rules are...get this...special and don't follow the norm.

Edit: Not to mention Barrage and Blast work totally different in terms of where you aim. Barrage lets you place the Template on ANY model of the unit, even if its out of sight and denies cover saves. Blast can only 'target' a model in the unit that it can actually SEE, but can still WOUND those it can't.

Snapshot wrote:
rigeld2''s point is that the Blast rule doesn't give you permission to ignore the part of Out of Sight that says to empty the pool if all targets are hidden from the firer. Blast overrides one specific part of Wound Allocation, namely that you are now able (must, in fact) to allocate a wound to a hidden model if he is the closest to the firer.

To people you are trying to inject realism into it, stop! It is game mechanic to find out who can be killed. Killing is a 3-step process: Hit, Wound, Allocate. You can't overlook rules in one step unless given permission to do so - well you can, but it isn't RAW.

Again, if you want to get stuff hidden from view, but a Barrage weapon.

They key phrase is "any wounds must be allocated", ie the wounds are emphatically applied to the closest model and never given the chance to be emptied from the pool because none of remaining wounds do not have the clause that they must also allocated to the closest model.

Melevolence wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
rigeld2''s point is that the Blast rule doesn't give you permission to ignore the part of Out of Sight that says to empty the pool if all targets are hidden from the firer. Blast overrides one specific part of Wound Allocation, namely that you are now able (must, in fact) to allocate a wound to a hidden model if he is the closest to the firer.

To people you are trying to inject realism into it, stop! It is game mechanic to find out who can be killed. Killing is a 3-step process: Hit, Wound, Allocate. You can't overlook rules in one step unless given permission to do so - well you can, but it isn't RAW.

Again, if you want to get stuff hidden from view, but a Barrage weapon.

You're also ignoring that Blast is a special rule, meaning it does not follow the normal rules for ordinary weapons. You don't use the rules for normal weapons when it has it's own rule set. It wounds models behind cover. Pure and simple. You still get saves as usual. Otherwise even Barrage would be useless since you're plugging your ears to the fact that Special Rules are...get this...special and don't follow the norm.

No they still follow the normal rules for weapons, except where they explicitly differ. Blast differs in regards to allocating Wounds to models that are out of sight. This does not meant it overrides the rules for when a unit is completely out of sight.

 Happyjew wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
rigeld2''s point is that the Blast rule doesn't give you permission to ignore the part of Out of Sight that says to empty the pool if all targets are hidden from the firer. Blast overrides one specific part of Wound Allocation, namely that you are now able (must, in fact) to allocate a wound to a hidden model if he is the closest to the firer.

To people you are trying to inject realism into it, stop! It is game mechanic to find out who can be killed. Killing is a 3-step process: Hit, Wound, Allocate. You can't overlook rules in one step unless given permission to do so - well you can, but it isn't RAW.

Again, if you want to get stuff hidden from view, but a Barrage weapon.

You're also ignoring that Blast is a special rule, meaning it does not follow the normal rules for ordinary weapons. You don't use the rules for normal weapons when it has it's own rule set. It wounds models behind cover. Pure and simple. You still get saves as usual. Otherwise even Barrage would be useless since you're plugging your ears to the fact that Special Rules are...get this...special and don't follow the norm.

No they still follow the normal rules for weapons, except where they explicitly differ. Blast differs in regards to allocating Wounds to models that are out of sight. This does not meant it overrides the rules for when a unit is completely out of sight.

But we aren't talking about a unit that is completely out of sight. We are talking about a unit that has at least a single model in LOS and what happens once the blast hits dudes that AREN'T.

 Happyjew wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
rigeld2''s point is that the Blast rule doesn't give you permission to ignore the part of Out of Sight that says to empty the pool if all targets are hidden from the firer. Blast overrides one specific part of Wound Allocation, namely that you are now able (must, in fact) to allocate a wound to a hidden model if he is the closest to the firer.

To people you are trying to inject realism into it, stop! It is game mechanic to find out who can be killed. Killing is a 3-step process: Hit, Wound, Allocate. You can't overlook rules in one step unless given permission to do so - well you can, but it isn't RAW.

Again, if you want to get stuff hidden from view, but a Barrage weapon.

You're also ignoring that Blast is a special rule, meaning it does not follow the normal rules for ordinary weapons. You don't use the rules for normal weapons when it has it's own rule set. It wounds models behind cover. Pure and simple. You still get saves as usual. Otherwise even Barrage would be useless since you're plugging your ears to the fact that Special Rules are...get this...special and don't follow the norm.

No they still follow the normal rules for weapons, except where they explicitly differ. Blast differs in regards to allocating Wounds to models that are out of sight. This does not meant it overrides the rules for when a unit is completely out of sight.

No one is disputing that normal targeting restrictions do not apply to blast markers, they do, ie your firing unit must have LoS to at least one model in the enemy unit, the fight here purely on wound allocation.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood the discussion. I was under the impression that you had a unit with one visible model being hit with a blast, and what happens after the visible model is removed (for example he was the closest model).

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm sorry if I misunderstood the discussion. I was under the impression that you had a unit with one visible model being hit with a blast, and what happens after the visible model is removed (for example he was the closest model).

it's cool, Brah

Incase I didn't state my case for wound pool emptying clear enough earlier:

Blast weapon: Aha! I have 4 wounds that must allocated to closest model even though I can't seem them!

Out of Sight: Excuse me you can't allocate them to out of sight models.

Blast weapon: Dude I totally can I'm a special, and I trump you!

Out of Sight: Aww shucks, but wait you get one wound then the rest must be emptied because no one is in Line of Sight aha!

Blast weapon: Dude i'm sorry but my wounds MUST be allocated which trumps your emptying rule... sorry bro.

Sordyn wrote:
Incase I didn't state my case for wound pool emptying clear enough earlier:

Blast weapon: Aha! I have 4 wounds that must allocated to closest model even though I can't seem them!

Out of Sight: Excuse me you can't allocate them to out of sight models.

Blast weapon: Dude I totally can I'm a special, and I trump you!

Out of Sight: Aww shucks, but wait you get one wound then the rest must be emptied because no one is in Line of Sight aha!

Blast weapon: Dude i'm sorry but my wounds MUST be allocated which trumps your emptying rule... sorry bro.

No, it does not trump the emptying rule. All wounds *are* allocated until the pool is emptied.

Blast says you can allocate to things out of range.

Sordyn wrote:
Incase I didn't state my case for wound pool emptying clear enough earlier:

Blast weapon: Aha! I have 4 wounds that must allocated to closest model even though I can't seem them!

Out of Sight: Excuse me you can't allocate them to out of sight models.

Blast weapon: Dude I totally can I'm a special, and I trump you!

Out of Sight: Aww shucks, but wait you get one wound then the rest must be emptied because no one is in Line of Sight aha!

Blast weapon: Dude i'm sorry but my wounds MUST be allocated which trumps your emptying rule... sorry bro.

Actually it goes like this:

Blast weapon: Aha! I have 4 wounds that must allocated to closest model even though I can't seem them! and no models in the target unit are in Line of Sight!

Out of Sight: Excuse me, There are no models in the target unit that are in Line of Sight? Cool, the wound pool is empty now.

Blast weapon: Dude I totally can allocate wounds from the wound pool to the closest model in the unit.

Out of Sight: What wounds?

Blast weapon: the wounds in the wound pool.

Out of Sight: There are no wounds in the wound pool...

Blast weapon: well then, I guess I cant allocate anything since there are no wounds to allocate.