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Hi Dakka,

So I love playing my Tyranids and am waiting for the new Necron Codex come out but I am really interested playing Orks and just have a couple of questions regarding them

1) How competitive are they? I am aware that the Necron Codex is probably the most competitive out of the Xenos armies I have picked but would still like to win some games with Orks
2) Is a speedy army viable? Not sure of proper terms but I'm thinking a Warboss on Bike with Deffkoptas, Nob Bikers and stuff?
3) Are the Flyers competitive? One reason I love playing Tyranids and Necrons is that their FMC's and Flyeres are amazing (and in my opinion look amazing) and I'm really impressed with how the Dakkajet looks
4) What are the best units in each slot?
5) How viable are the Gorkanauts and Morkanauts and Stompa?
6) Are the Psychic Abilities any good, if any?
7) How would Orks play? With Necrons I sit back and let the opponent come to me as AV13 Spam is tough, while with Nids I go forward and buff my army or cast maledictions and make sure my Bugs are victorious, what is the best way to play Orks?

Thanks to all the Ork players in advance

Orks.... is the master race...

1) Technically the orks are not that competitive, they have some glaring weaknesses in their strats that make them fall apart if exploited. However in my experience really only tau, daemons, or eldar can exploit this issue casually (and honestly eldar are the weaker of the three at doing it)
Tau are capable of stripping cover with weapons that can pen our armor and/or splat the models, most races cant do both. Also their casual gun is S5, which wounds on a 3 on most of our army and we have no armor against it. Firewarriors will tear green hordes to shreds, especially if theres an ethereal around.
Daemons are the most common source of Fear, and orks are literally the ONLY FREAKIN RACE that actually suffers from fear. LD7 unless a warboss is in the unit (LD9 then) and our mob rule doesnt help against "leadership tests" - reducing us to WS1 is painful as hell especially when against something we need sheer weight of attacks to kill in the first place.
Eldar because of waveserpents....thats about it actually the rest of their army is pretty moot against orks. Waveserpents rip all except manz to shreds in a heartbeat, and LONG before we can charge them.
All armies can counter us, but these three will 9/10 of the time have the best answer to our lists in any tactic they field, against orks or not.

2) Orks have two main tactics: mass numbers that lumber across the board with too many to kill in time, or fast as hell crap that is in your face turn 1. Speedy armies via wagons or bikers are very common. And fun lol.

3) Fliers are one of those units that function well enough to bring, but always seem to feel like it should do more for the cost. Burnabommas are just ... dumb...... dakkajets are effective still just not as nasty during the waaaagh!....and blitza bombas are deceptively effective but have a chance to flop and do nothing (damn orky charts).

4) Best unit in each slot depends on your tactic. Troops obviously its boyz since grots are pointless (everything scores, have mek gunz hold the backfield stuff not grots). Elites are usually MANz but kommandos and tankbustas should not be ignored, if the tactic allows them. FA is warbikers....hands down lol. Heavy....im not even going to bother with that one i'll be talking for eons (literally each unit has its place in a different tactic).

5) nauts are along the same line as the jets imho. effective enough to bring but not if youre playing competitively and need efficient units. its too expensive and has a chance to instantly explode for the damage it does, but its fun in a friendly scene. stompas have always been awesome, though the codex one is lackluster (go forgeworld)

6) most of our psyker abilities are damn nasty, really only 'Eadbanger is utterly useless (focused witchfire on a bs2 model...really). The problem is the weirdboy himself, not the spells. our HQs are ungodly important to any list, and usually a weirdboy costs a lot more than the points show because we lack a painboy, a warboss, or a big mek by taking him. Same for the other guys actually not just a weirdboy. Theyre good, but the hq slot cost....ugh...

7) Orks can play the shooty or the assaulty game, usually having a slight aspect of the other as either one. The shooty game is usually played in the midfield though, since mek gunz are the only long range weapons we got that are worth bringing (lootas die too easy for the cost and heavy slot use). A mass ball of boyz with shootas is a lot of dakka, ive had it kill mawlocs in one go in the past lol.

Personally i play the assaulty variant, with a few lobbas in the backfield. i love my warbikers and MANz missiles to death. a 15man warbiker unit with nob and klaw costs 305 (no bp cause its on the boss). Boss on bike with Lucky Stikk costs ~140 and painboy is 75. Turbo boost turn 1 to be able to assault pretty much anyone you want turn 2, and gain a 3+ jink in the process followed by FNP. Unless your opponent has a lot of heavy flamers, i would be very surprised if they can do any significant damage to them before they melt something. All are WS5 because of the Lucky Stick. Go Command Traits and hope for rerolls to hit of 1 in melee, makes them even more crazy lol

Vineheart01 very good analysis on the orks codex in general. Although the codex may not be competitive, one can still put up a good fight with them.

Victory lies with he who gets there firstest with the mostest. Numbers and Speed, my friend!

 ravenousork25 wrote:
Vineheart01 very good analysis on the orks codex in general. Although the codex may not be competitive, one can still put up a good fight with them.

Though the biggest issue with competitive is not being able to constantly win games, but rather the issue not being able to place first. For every ork strategy there are one or two hard-counter armies which you can't really expect to beat with a TAC list. For example, the common wave-serpent spam pretty much makes foot slogging impossible, while it struggles with battlewagons. Marines on the other hand have an easy time handling battlewagons because of all the grav guns stopping them early, but lack the firepower to stop foot sloggers. Basically you can only win a tournament when you don't run into one of your counters.

So which list would be the most viable? Green Tide or Battlewagons?

I'm likely to be facing against my friends Tau/Eldar/Dark Angels (am aware that Tau is generally a bad match up for a CC army but still) and would ideally want to field a Battlewagon army, would Trukks and Warbuggies(?)be good support transporting more boyz? (Are BW heavy vehicles)? Also what would be the best configuration for Battlewagons (I hear the 5 Wagon formation is quite good though?)

It's good to see that Warbikes are the best FA, I wanted to include them to go with the Speed Demons theme I ideally want to play

But thank you all for the advice, especially Vineheart!

Orks can be competitive and tac simultaniously. Though, not at the same cheesy level like certain builds of eldar or crons.

Orkses are an army of bullies. You roll over stuff that's weaker than you but can't hold the ground vs anything dedicated to counter what you're bringing. That's why "Chop the shooty, shoot the choppy". Don't take this only literally. You got a boss? He's gona wreck everything unless he runs into something like assault termies or sm character with shield eternal. That's why you tarpit those things with cheapo boyz and not throw bosses or manz at them.

Timing is one of the most important things. For example, you have a bunch of wagonz, trucks, bikers...adding a unit of footslogas will not do any good - you'll just waste points spreading focus. Or if you have a footslogging force, a single battlewagon or a couple of trucks won't work.

Gorkanaught/Morkanaught are currently considered not worth the effort other than in a walker wall. Preferably within a dataslate that grants 'ere we go for your walkers. Stompa, on the other hand, is decent being one of the most well-ballanced super-heavies in the game.

Psy powers are nice but the problem is it's only avaliable on a guy that takes HQ slot which is never enough for warbosses and painbosses. The solution might lie with a dataslate of 3 meks + boss + wierdboy but it's only good in larger games.

There's no such thing as BEST unit in each slot. It all depends on your tactix. Most of them are good and situationally outstanding. Some like kommandoes, 'naughts or kanz are situationally good. Some like nobz or flash gitz are almost never worth it. But the book on the whole is ballanced and offers variability.

The most important thing is that orkses can effectively utilise any tactix. Footslogging hordes, speed freaks, walker wall and even a combined gunline force to some degree. But it doesn't work like "throw in a random unit and it'll do". Nope, you got to stick to the theme to make it competitive. But no matter what you do, your army is never over the top and alwayz enjoyable to play with or against. I haven't met even a single person who'd say that orks are broken. Even after they've been trainwrecked by a lightning assault or didn't manage to down enough boyz in the horde.

My experiences with the new Ork book has shifted my playstyle that I had some decent success with locally with the old book.

Previously, I woudl load up 20 boyz in battlewagons and support them with Nob Bikers and lootas. Worked well enough but it was old orks.

My current strategy tends to rely on trukk spam and rokkit buggy spam. Outflanking (depending on my opponent) all 15 rokkit buggies is risky but leads to a lot of vehicle destruction when they come in. Turn 1 tends to have my trukks flat out to apply pressure and get into position. 2 MANz units and 1 Tankbustas unit tends to be my current test list but it may change here in a bit. The largest issue I've had is that my boyz get into position before the enemy transports are destroyed. So the boyz may destroy the transports and then my opponent has a turn of shooting at them. If you go assaulty - popping transports needs to be on your mind.

Beyond that, I pretty much agree with what Vineheart01 & Jidmah said. Orks are a pretty strong, balanced, and versatile army - it's just that at a competitive level, there's a lot of hard counters that are common at tournaments.

This has really helped you guys, it's a shame that Orks are hard countered by two top-tier lists.

Is it at all possible to win against CenturionStar with Battlewagon Spam? Like, if you were tactically adept and stuff, could you give it a run for it's money?

The centurion star by itself is actually not an issue at all. Grav guns spammed across multiple biker units are a much bigger issue. The centurion star can stop two battlewagons at most, so you just have to make the other 2-3 count.

 Jidmah wrote:
The centurion star by itself is actually not an issue at all. Grav guns spammed across multiple biker units are a much bigger issue. The centurion star can stop two battlewagons at most, so you just have to make the other 2-3 count.

Agreed here. Centurions by themselves is pretty easy to address by sending boyz and nobz at them. The bikes are really the challenge as they produce more shots overall and are T5 (making them a challenge for S3 boyz). in a situation like this though, the key is to make sure you get into position as fast as possible turn 1 so on turn 2, you're able to get the charge off and start tying things down.

One new model that a fellow ork player has been playing around with more than myself is the Smash Gun. While it needs support from an HQ (LD), Strength D6+4 and AP1 is brutal against bikes, terminators, and centarious alike. Add in T7 from artillery and you have a fun squad that turns into a high priority target for your opponent - and a great distraction for the other threats coming their way.

Ooh sounds interesting.

Are Deffkoptas viable or is that slot better taken by Warbikers, as a means to counter or at least fight against GravBikes?

Deffkoptas have a different role. Warbikers are used for numbers and melee on a fast platform, deffkoptas want to be elusive and dakka rear armor. Thats why usually deffkoptas/buggies always have rokkits, because they want vehicles while warbikers want infantry.

Deffkoptas can have the same shooting as warbikers, but better range (18" vs 36" range, same strength/fire rate/twinlink). I tend to use them as a KFF on bike escort because i DONT want my kff in melee combat, deffkoptas can shoot things turn 1 (warbikers cannot most of the time due to the KFF positioning), and point for point its more wounds, which is the main thing i want here. Drawback is less S5 attacks point for point, but unless you are very close to your opponent warbiker units usually cant fire the entire squad.
Outflanking/scouting and turboing deffkoptas with TL Rokkits are also excellent since they can immediately threaten rear armor. Warbikers cannot do this.

All in all, both are very viable, but deffkoptas are traditionally the shootier version.

Nice! Which would would be better for a Speed Demons list? They both seem very fast..

Pfft warbikers are generally want you want in a speedfreak list because they can cause a ton of melee damage, deffkoptas really cant.

Truthfully, take both. Deffkoptas can move 48" in the first turn, immediately putting them behind enemy lines and draw a ton of attention ... causing a LOT of damage if left alone/they survive. This is because of 12" scout 12" movement 24" turboboost (jetbikers ftw)

I ran a list once utilizing 10 rokkit koptas and 15 warbikers. Turn 1 he had 10 koptas behind his tanks and 17 bikes in his face (counting painboy + boss). Neither are that easy to deal with due to 3+ jink and fnp on bikes or 4+ jink and multiwound on koptas. Pick your poison, and die lol.

That sounds fun, what sort of HQ would be best? Warboss on bike?

I disagree that grots aren't good. They are the easiest way to fill troop requirements and get the good goodies.

That doesn't make them good

The are an almost completely useless unit on the board. While I agree that paying 35 points for two extra HQ slots is completely viable(pain boyz are just that good), you should always aim to upgrade that fourth troop choice to trukk boyz or a blob of 20, rather than bring dead weight along.

agreed, theyre just dead weight. Previously they were useful to have one purely because we had nothing in the back field holding objectives unless we wanted to pay 3x the cost for a blob of boyz, that isnt really too much durable to long range guns anyway. Grots are at least cheap enough where if the opponent fires ANY long guns at them, you win in the long run technically.

Thats not the case anymore. Im not even sure i'd bring two units for 35pts each to get a painboy since that makes the painboy cost 130pts and i got 2 free victory points lurking around.

Ok thanks for your help guys. I'm hopefully going to be purchasing the Ork dex today so should be able to get a small army running (say 500 to 750)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
agreed, theyre just dead weight. Previously they were useful to have one purely because we had nothing in the back field holding objectives unless we wanted to pay 3x the cost for a blob of boyz, that isnt really too much durable to long range guns anyway. Grots are at least cheap enough where if the opponent fires ANY long guns at them, you win in the long run technically.

Thats not the case anymore. Im not even sure i'd bring two units for 35pts each to get a painboy since that makes the painboy cost 130pts and i got 2 free victory points lurking around.

I have never regretted putting gretchin on the board.

Opens the heavy slots I need up for a second FOC and have objective secured. hide in rocks all game then pile out to an objective.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
agreed, theyre just dead weight. Previously they were useful to have one purely because we had nothing in the back field holding objectives unless we wanted to pay 3x the cost for a blob of boyz, that isnt really too much durable to long range guns anyway. Grots are at least cheap enough where if the opponent fires ANY long guns at them, you win in the long run technically.

Thats not the case anymore. Im not even sure i'd bring two units for 35pts each to get a painboy since that makes the painboy cost 130pts and i got 2 free victory points lurking around.

I have never regretted putting gretchin on the board.

Opens the heavy slots I need up for a second FOC and have objective secured. hide in rocks all game then pile out to an objective.

The thing is you have scoring big gunz and lootas now. While grots are just 35-40 pt, they're basically still dead weight. Very fragile, unreliable and can't hold their own. No, they're not completely worthless. But in many lists, this points are best spent on boyz. You invest more but get something in return. They'd be worthwile if they were 2 ppm or had no problems with ld. I mean look at conscripts that cost 3 ppm too but comparing them to grots is like comparing a guardsman to a space marine. And they're easilly made fearless and fine in mellee with a priest or basically immune to ld checks with a comissar and ld9 for orders.

However, there are some situations when you just don't have enough points to form a competent squad or don't have an intention to run proper troops at all. In this case, grots are fine as min troop fillers.

I use grots just cause i have a squad of them and they fit to cap the point limit without adding stuff like combi-weapons or saws that i don't quite like. In future they'll just be manning big gunz that i've allready scratch-built but haven't painted yet.

Lootas and big guns are both targets worth going after. Dropping a few units of gretchin on the table creates a situation where units far more expensive than they waste precious turns trying to either charge them or shoot them. Every round of shooting or assault they eat up is one less for those units to use on you.

It is similar to MSU scorers flooding the back field. They satisfy troop requirements, aren't REALLY worthy of the fire they require coming in, and they are cheaper than anything else in the codex.

I get what people are saying, but they work as easy objective securers.

 PhillyT wrote:
Lootas and big guns are both targets worth going after. Dropping a few units of gretchin on the table creates a situation where units far more expensive than they waste precious turns trying to either charge them or shoot them. Every round of shooting or assault they eat up is one less for those units to use on you.

It is similar to MSU scorers flooding the back field. They satisfy troop requirements, aren't REALLY worthy of the fire they require coming in, and they are cheaper than anything else in the codex.

I get what people are saying, but they work as easy objective securers.

Big gunz are so cheap and durable that targeting them the enemy simply helps you win a game. And big gunz are cheaper than grots and WAY more durable. The only redeeming quality of grots is that they occupy a mandatory troop slot. I guess, we're arguing for nothing here =) Cause the solution is simple. You need a troop filler and don't want to spend points on a competent squad? Take grots. But be prepared that they're worse than most things in game point-to-point.

I think the other issue is that I have 20,000 points in orks, only 8000 of which is painted, and can't convince myself to either purchase big gunz or convert them! I have literally a dozen heavy choices painted and ready and can't bring myself to paint more!

My style is lootas and gretchin in the back field, sometimes a wagon full of flash gitz dipping in and out within range of the enemy, and then heaps of nob bikers, trukk meganobz, kans and grot tanks out in the enemy's face, making shots on lonely gretchin in the back field a difficult proposition for the enemy.

I'll eventually get around to it, but they are a VERY difficult purchase for new players. They are hugely over priced in an army that is pretty expensive to play. And if you don't have a large bit collection, they can be a tiring conversion.

Mass footsloggers is very powerful now with "Ere We Go, Waaagh! and Like A Thundeerbolt. I am generally in combat on turn 2. Slugga boyz in 'eavy armour with a PK nob, painboy and Warboss is doing work for me. Things have changed with our new book, so don't take anyone's advice too seriously, some people are having trouble accepting how our army works with our new book.

 PhillyT wrote:
I think the other issue is that I have 20,000 points in orks, only 8000 of which is painted, and can't convince myself to either purchase big gunz or convert them! I have literally a dozen heavy choices painted and ready and can't bring myself to paint more!

My style is lootas and gretchin in the back field, sometimes a wagon full of flash gitz dipping in and out within range of the enemy, and then heaps of nob bikers, trukk meganobz, kans and grot tanks out in the enemy's face, making shots on lonely gretchin in the back field a difficult proposition for the enemy.

I'll eventually get around to it, but they are a VERY difficult purchase for new players. They are hugely over priced in an army that is pretty expensive to play. And if you don't have a large bit collection, they can be a tiring conversion.

Being so useless that shooting them is a waste of time is not a quality. Just like your opponent is wasting points when shotting them, you are wasting points by fielding them. A single kopta can do everything gretchin can do and more, while costing 5 points less. You could even buy a trukk for a big mob of boyz and just park it somewhere on an objective and it would be better than gretchin.

Unless you really need those slots you shouldn't field gretchin. If you're fielding more than one unit of gretchin your army would probably be better with less slots and less gretchin.

They aren't useless. They hold objectives. That they are a back field unit that take very few points and allow me to take more front end units which then get into positions to be the dominant threat is is an asset.

If they eat up rounds of fire AND hold objectives while filling slots, they have plenty of uses.

Ok, let me rephrase that:

They have less uses than every single other unit you could possibly field.

You're absolutely right, Jidmah. They are the least useful unit. That's to be expected, since they're also the cheapest unit.

They don't do much, but they're cheap. If what they do is all you need, then grots are what you want.