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Actually, one Warbuggy is the cheapest unit if you only buy either with the lowest possible amount

But yeah I'll have to agree with Jidmah.

Corollax wrote:
You're absolutely right, Jidmah. They are the least useful unit. That's to be expected, since they're also the cheapest unit.

They don't do much, but they're cheap. If what they do is all you need, then grots are what you want.

They aren't the cheapest unit anymore, that's why I'm calling them dead weight. At 20 points or something I'd agree, but since you can get trukks, buggies, koptas or mek gunz for less (two lobbas for 36), while every single one of them is more survivable and can at the very least shoot a single big shoota across half the board, I see no reason to ever consider gretchin outside of an add-on to a slot I desperately need. Once you start adding 70 points to that slot you needed, you'll find that you actually didn't need it that much.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ok, let me rephrase that:

They have less uses than every single other unit you could possibly field.

Unless you are looking for a unit to satisfy troop requirements and hold objectives with objective secured while taking up the least number of points, in which case they are the best unit in the codex.

Actually, even then orks boyz would be better.

Objective secured is all but irrelevant on a unit that will lose combat against anything.

The small amout of times they get an objective for you by simply being ignored is balanced out by the same amount of times they provide free VP to your opponent for killing them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, even then orks boyz would be better.

Objective secured is all but irrelevant on a unit that will lose combat against anything.

That's not the point of Gretchin though. Think of them as Cultists. Cultists and gretchin have cheap numbers and fill in a troop choice for their armies so that the player can do multiple detachments of taking things that are worthwhile. For example, I saw a list the other day that was doing CAD with 4 gretchin squads and 6 Stormboy units. There wasn't much else; however, the guy wanted to do a very mobile green tide-style list using stormboyz to clear get into combat faster and clear objectives. Was that list competitives - probably not (never tried it myself) but it illustrates the point that there are better things in non-troop choices that could be spammed and taking minimum troops for double CAD/OHD is how some players do it.

They point of banshees is to kill marines. Still, no one uses them to kill marines, because they are horribly inefficient at doing so.

Orks have no unit can or should be spammed to make a good army, especially not if you add 70 points of dead weight to it. There are no riptides or wave serpents in our codex, and the few units that you might consider spamming have formations from Waaagh! Ghazghkull to allow you to do that without any troops. That storm boy guy could easily have dropped a unit of stormboyz or two and field trukkboyz instead, making his army as a whole better, because he is no longer wasting 140 points on shootable scenery, plus he could use the Vulcha Boyz formation from W!G.

When you buy gretchin, you are basically taking 35 points and throw them out the window into a lake and watch them drown. You get slightly more than nothing in return when you are playing a purely objective-based mission, and you get less than nothing when your opponent is rewarded for killing your stuff (note that this includes most maelstrom missions). You don't want to have 4 units of gretchin dorking around when your opponent gets rewarded 6+d3 VP for killing five units in a turn.

Is paying 35 point to upgrade to a second CAD worth it? Probably. Are 70 points worth it to upgrade to a second CAD? Hardly. Increase the points of any good unit by 70 and it's no longer a good unit. Chances are that you're trying to jam something into your army that you don't need. When you start spending 140 points on gretchin, ask yourself your army wouldn't be better off by simply upgrading the gretchin you have to trukk boyz/mobs of 20 before you start spending more points on slots.

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, even then orks boyz would be better.

Objective secured is all but irrelevant on a unit that will lose combat against anything.

The small amout of times they get an objective for you by simply being ignored is balanced out by the same amount of times they provide free VP to your opponent for killing them.

How many missions feature VP's for kill points as opposed to objective based victories?

And how are orks better? Nearly double the points to do the same basic job? A unit of 10 orks without a nob or upgrades can't beat anything in combat either.

I completely understand what you are saying, but I also think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of grots. For fun, using 2 FOC, you can drop 10 units of 10 grots at 350 points. Silly, I know, but you could. And with the other things you buy, you can very often throw so many on the table that the enemy can't possibly kill all of them. You will hold objectives simply through volume. Sounds silly I know, but it is a viable tactic and still works. You put piles of kans, mega nobz, bikers, etc. that do the killing. Meanwhile the grots hold down the objectives. It is a tough sell for an opponent to open fire on grots when they have fearless bully boyz rampaging through their lines, lootas blasting targets, kans stomping forward, or bikers slashing through shooting and assaulting. When infiltrators they do get into the back field will have to waste all of their turns trying to mill through grots. They can't kill enough and end up with two or three OS grot units on every objective.

It's probably the kind of games you're playing then.

My common opponents have no issue killing 6 units of gretchin in a single turn. A single wave serpent plus the DAVU unit is enough to clear your backfield of gretchin - at worst two or three wave serpents are leaving their passengers behind to deal with your gretchin while they keep gunning your main force down.
A drop pod with tacticals can do the same, many armies will just make them run by shooting them with guns which can't reach anything else, or a rhino/chimera comes along and tank-shocks them off their objective.

Also, in your example, wouldn't be a unit of boyz or two rampaging across the enemy army as well be better than those gretchin? If they don't have time to shoot gretchin, they don't have time to shoot boyz or trukks either, but you are killing more stuff.

In objective-base eternal war missions they do nothing until the game ends. If you're playing the relic, they pretty much hand the relic to whoever asks nice enough. In maelstrom of war they can hold two objectives at most, which you might not need all game, and will provide your opponent with free VP if he draws any of cards asking him to kill something. If he draws the aforementioned scaling kill card, you'll pretty much lose the game right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
And how are orks better? Nearly double the points to do the same basic job? A unit of 10 orks without a nob or upgrades can't beat anything in combat either.

I wasn't assuming a minimal unit, those are useless for the same reasons. At the very least I'd invest in a boy unit and a trukk for 160 total. That's two relatively sturdy units with at least some killing power, compared to a unit with no killing power at all. They can pretty much do everything gretchin can do, plus they can contribute to the rest of the battle in a meaningful way. They cost more than gretchin, but you actually get something in return.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's probably the kind of games you're playing then.

My common opponents have no issue killing 6 units of gretchin in a single turn. A single wave serpent plus the DAVU unit is enough to clear your backfield of gretchin - at worst two or three wave serpents are leaving their passengers behind to deal with your gretchin while they keep gunning your main force down.
A drop pod with tacticals can do the same, many armies will just make them run by shooting them with guns which can't reach anything else, or a rhino/chimera comes along and tank-shocks them off their objective.

Eldar are always going to be an issue. What eldar list can't remove your backfield if that is what you are letting them concentrate on?

As far as drop pod lists, same issue, though not much of a problem. Drop pods arrive and they will shot the grots? This is turn 1 and 2. The rest of your army is one charge away in both of those turns, you really think drop pods are showing up and turning their guns on the grots? And if they do, each squad is unlikely to kill even one unit of gretchin per turn. And they are depositing themselves in positions to get themselves assaulted and swept without much effort if they do.

Tank shocking can be an issue, but when has a rhino or chimera ever wandered all the way across the table through an entire ork army to tank shock anything?

Also, in your example, wouldn't be a unit of boyz or two rampaging across the enemy army as well be better than those gretchin? If they don't have time to shoot gretchin, they don't have time to shoot boyz or trukks either, but you are killing more stuff.

At what cost? You get 2 - 3 units of grots for every unit of 10 - 12 orks. If you put nobz in or buy a trukk, your can take 5 units of grots.

In objective-base eternal war missions they do nothing until the game ends.

They don't need to do anything until then. But when they do it, you win.

If you're playing the relic, they pretty much hand the relic to whoever asks nice enough.

How so? When there is only one objective on the table, you smash their troops and you get loads of OS gretchin to just stand around and take it on turn 6.

In maelstrom of war they can hold two objectives at most, which you might not need all game, and will provide your opponent with free VP if he draws any of cards asking him to kill something. If he draws the aforementioned scaling kill card, you'll pretty much lose the game right there.

I have never played Maelstrom. I have never met anyone willing to play it. I don't generally figure it into my army building.

 PhillyT wrote:
Eldar are always going to be an issue. What eldar list can't remove your backfield if that is what you are letting them concentrate on?

Why do you think this is limited to eldar? Outside of Tau or IG little armies have trouble dedicating a single unit to cleaning up defenseless backfield units.

As far as drop pod lists, same issue, though not much of a problem. Drop pods arrive and they will shot the grots? This is turn 1 and 2. The rest of your army is one charge away in both of those turns, you really think drop pods are showing up and turning their guns on the grots? And if they do, each squad is unlikely to kill even one unit of gretchin per turn. And they are depositing themselves in positions to get themselves assaulted and swept without much effort if they do.

Emphasis on tacticals in a pod. Their job is to drop on your backfield and grab objectives. Sternguard or Centurions are obviously not going to bother with grots. When they do their job, the pod is shooting one of your gretchin unit (and is maybe already denying their objective), and the two combat squads assault two more units after shooting them for a turn, possibly already making them run by just shooting. That's three units out of the picture by a single troops choice.

At what cost? You get 2 - 3 units of grots for every unit of 10 - 12 orks. If you put nobz in or buy a trukk, your can take 5 units of grots.

You seem to be under the impression that gretchin are 30 points - they are not. A unit of boyz with trukk, ram, a nob, PK and a boss pole is 147 points. Four units of gretchin are 140. While gretchin can capture another two objectives, they cannot defend them at all. The unit of trukk boyz can help you pile into a combat which needs another PK, the trukk can tank-shock or annoy stuff with its rokkit or S6 rams. The usual fate of trukk boyz is taking casualties in their first combat and then either picking on other weak units/vehicles or heading onto objectives. No tactical squad is going to remove a nob with a PK from any objective by assaulting it, the trukk can't be run or tank-shocked off an objective. It takes just as much effort to remove the unit of trukk boyz, as it does to remove the four units of gretchin - the big difference is that the rest of your army is taking less casualties due to you having killed more.

I have never played Maelstrom. I have never met anyone willing to play it. I don't generally figure it into my army building.

That kinds of make them a bit more viable. In maelstrom of war, they are always a liability to have around , while in eternal war, you only have one in six chance to make them one.

 Jidmah wrote:

Why do you think this is limited to eldar? Outside of Tau or IG little armies have trouble dedicating a single unit to cleaning up defenseless backfield units.

I mentioned Eldar because that was your example. What units are sweeping 6 gretchin units by the end of a game? At best they kill a squad per turn. At best. Few will even do that. Go to ground, take your leadership test on the 7.

Emphasis on tacticals in a pod. Their job is to drop on your backfield and grab objectives. Sternguard or Centurions are obviously not going to bother with grots. When they do their job, the pod is shooting one of your gretchin unit (and is maybe already denying their objective), and the two combat squads assault two more units after shooting them for a turn, possibly already making them run by just shooting. That's three units out of the picture by a single troops choice.

So a drop pod lands on turn 1 or turn 2, the models get out, and the drop pod opens fire on the gretchin with a storm bolter, the other 10 models divide into their two combat squads and shoot at two seperate units of gretchin. So really, the drop pod will do almost nothing for the 5 - 6 turns it is on the table. That is 10 - 12 shots, 6 or 9 hits, 4 or 6 wounds then the gretchin get cover saves or not. Either way, the drop pod itself is unlikely to even kill an entire unit since it can't deal enough wounds to force panic tests until it has had a couple turns of fire. As far as the combat squads, yes, they will get to fire 10 shots, hit with 6 - 7, do 4 wounds, force a panic test, and average removing a single gretchin unit between the two. Then the rest of the army, still right there since it is 1st or 2nd turn, charges and kills them with zero effort. So for the expense of removing a 35 point unit, you spent at least 175 points. If that is a good return, we are playing a different game.

You seem to be under the impression that gretchin are 30 points - they are not. A unit of boyz with trukk, ram, a nob, PK and a boss pole is 147 points. Four units of gretchin are 140. While gretchin can capture another two objectives, they cannot defend them at all. The unit of trukk boyz can help you pile into a combat which needs another PK, the trukk can tank-shock or annoy stuff with its rokkit or S6 rams. The usual fate of trukk boyz is taking casualties in their first combat and then either picking on other weak units/vehicles or heading onto objectives. No tactical squad is going to remove a nob with a PK from any objective by assaulting it, the trukk can't be run or tank-shocked off an objective. It takes just as much effort to remove the unit of trukk boyz, as it does to remove the four units of gretchin - the big difference is that the rest of your army is taking less casualties due to you having killed more.

Gretchin are 35 points. A naked ork unit is 60 points. You will always buy a nob, meaning they become 70 points in the most inexpensive survivable form. You get a two for one return on gretchin and neither unit will survive concentrated attention. In a typical lay out, a 10 man ork squad with rokkit or big shoota and PK nob with a boss pole is going to be 105 points, with is a 3-1 ratio. Even with the bosspole and PK with a big gun of some sort, that ork unit is still too fragile to be of much use. Stick it in a trukk and it will be, at the cost of a fourth unit of gretchin. And I get what you are saying, the trukk is a second OS model, so the ratio isn't bad. Except of course that if you are playing anyone who knows how the army works, they will kill that trukk, hoping to get the explode result which will then kill 40% of the unit in the explosion alone and then force you to take a leadership test for pinning, hopping you will beat your units headi n or just run should you fail that test and roll on the table. When was the last time a trukk actually survived a game you didn't have fully in hand anyway?

That kinds of make them a bit more viable. In maelstrom of war, they are always a liability to have around , while in eternal war, you only have one in six chance to make them one.

People dismiss it out of hand here. It seems too random and disjointed, not to mention there is enough variety to be found in the standard missions. I am not averse to Maelstrom. It just doesn't come up.

I am not tryingto say gretchin are great. I am saying that they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. They can be a useful tool at times and there are strategies for their use if a person likes the models or wants to have points for bigger toys.

Corollax wrote:
You're absolutely right, Jidmah. They are the least useful unit. That's to be expected, since they're also the cheapest unit.

They don't do much, but they're cheap. If what they do is all you need, then grots are what you want.

But a 10 man unit of boyz is 25 points more, and if settled onto an objective in cover won't run off the table because someone looked at them funny. They will also, should the opportunity arise, be able to actually hurt things in CC.

If you need back-field objectives held, lootas / mek gunz are the way to go. If you desperately need backfield obj. secured, 10 boyz are the way to go. Literally the only niche Gertchin fill is min points troop choices.

10 orks are really not appreciable more survivable than the Gretchen. Same leadership.

 PhillyT wrote:
10 orks are really not appreciable more survivable than the Gretchen. Same leadership.

Same leadership, double the toughness. You'll take half as many casualties from being peppered with light bolter fire and probably won't may not need to test for a single tac squad shooting at you (infact, in cover, you probably won't). Can also, should push come to shove, threaten said tac squad in CC.

Again, both of these are only if you are in desperate need of obj secured in the backline (hint: you won't be).

Frankly, from what I'm seeing in this thread (and I've read it all), the issue here is that you simply don't want to -not- run Gretchin. That's fine, you're totally allowed to build whatever list you like. It's one of the best parts of 40k (and fantasy). When the argument that other things do any job Gretchin do other than filling min troop requirements has been raised, you've basically just said "I don't have that painted, want to run grots".

So yeah, like I said, you can run what you want, but don't try and convince other people that Grotz are good. They're not, ever, unless you need to fill two troop slots as cheaply as possible. There are better way to camp objectives, there are better way to hold your backline, there are better ways to do everything that Grotz do; even filling troops arguable.

So after going through this debate...Grots are outclassed by everything? Only reason to take them is cheap troops, but even then?

What sort of Boyz should I use? Shootas, Sluggas? I don't have a Codex yet (was unable to find time today) so I don't know about the different types of boyz available

 morganfreeman wrote:

Same leadership, double the toughness. You'll take half as many casualties from being peppered with light bolter fire and probably won't may not need to test for a single tac squad shooting at you (infact, in cover, you probably won't). Can also, should push come to shove, threaten said tac squad in CC.

A naked ork squad with 10 orks isn't going to be too successful against a tac squad. Gretchin are going to go to ground if anything looks at them since they have nothing better to do.

Frankly, from what I'm seeing in this thread (and I've read it all), the issue here is that you simply don't want to -not- run Gretchin. That's fine, you're totally allowed to build whatever list you like. It's one of the best parts of 40k (and fantasy). When the argument that other things do any job Gretchin do other than filling min troop requirements has been raised, you've basically just said "I don't have that painted, want to run grots".

I never said that. I said mek gunz are a nice back holder, but if your baseline is held by lootas and mek gunz, you will most likely lose them. The same things that have been said will sweep away several units of gretchin will sweep away mek gunz and lootas. Drop pods, infiltrators, and the rare unit blasting off into the back field will eliminate them and you will have spent far more points to do it. I generally don't run more than a unit of gretchin, but I have used more and it has worked well enough.

So yeah, like I said, you can run what you want, but don't try and convince other people that Grotz are good. They're not, ever, unless you need to fill two troop slots as cheaply as possible. There are better way to camp objectives, there are better way to hold your backline, there are better ways to do everything that Grotz do; even filling troops arguable.

Except I never made the argument they were good. I said:

[If] you are looking for a unit to satisfy troop requirements and hold objectives with objective secured while taking up the least number of points, in which case they are the best unit in the codex.

They do a job. Dismissing them out of hand isn't terribly constructive. They cost very little $, very few points, and do what small units of orks do for half the points. A unit of 10 orks has virtually no value at their 60 points. If a person wants a full look at the army, they can consider gretchin. The points saved allow for the actual units with punch, like bikes and meganobz.

Gretchins are pretty bad. The only reason I field them is because I need/want 4 HQ 4Elite and 4Heavy slots. One thing they do have going for them is their actual size. The models are so tiny that it is almost always possible to hide them completely out of sight. Even a wall half the height of an aegis does the job.

They are also useful for screening battlewagons to keep melta pods and the like away. They do it as well as any infantry unit at a super cheap rate

I think the 'grot debate' is of no use, really. If you want to fill troops with anything as cheap as possible, you take grots and use them to the max of their modest capabilities. They're tiny and easier to hide behind blos. They can be used to protect you from a drop pod or nemesis strike force to a degree. No, they're not good. But they're fine for a 35 pt squad of 11 models that fill your mandatory troop slot. That's it. And you'll be happy that 35 pt of grots saved your most important wagon from a melta pod.

Frozocrone wrote:
So after going through this debate...Grots are outclassed by everything? Only reason to take them is cheap troops, but even then?

What sort of Boyz should I use? Shootas, Sluggas? I don't have a Codex yet (was unable to find time today) so I don't know about the different types of boyz available

That's situational.

Trucks - choppaboyz
Footslogging ~20 boyz mob - shootas are more preferable
Footslogging ~30 with boss and doc, choppas are probably better for more reliable charges (shootas will kill the closest thus making you need to roll higher). Besides, you won't be able to utilise all the shootas in such large squads due to 18' range and the fact that you have to spread the squad more often than not.
Wagonboyz - both have their uses
Green tide madness - it's allready 900+ pts, but someone likes to overwatch with a bucket of dice, though tactically, choppas are more preferable there. You're running + charging all the time anywayz.

You guys are all missing the point of Grots - you buy a pack of them to use as gun crew for your custom built Mek Guns

 GoonBandito wrote:
You guys are all missing the point of Grots - you buy a pack of them to use as gun crew for your custom built Mek Guns

Bought mine on e-bay for exactly the same reason in the first place but currently use them as a separate squad...with ig guyz manning big gunz cause i'm playying blood axes and they tend to 'work' with humans from time to time...runtherd assures they're doing fine =D

Note, however, that the models are different from artillery grots that don't have grot blastas and carry some cool artillery stuff instead.

I got them as wound buffer for the SAG mek, and maybe as screening unit for my walkers, though this is quite situational
Pretty much it.

XC18 wrote:
I got them as wound buffer for the SAG mek, and maybe as screening unit for my walkers, though this is quite situational
Pretty much it.

Big gunz are far superior as a retinue to mek due to t7 and 3+ in front. Besides, they're doing the shooting too.

I wish ;p. Unfortunately my heavy slots are already filled ;(

 koooaei wrote:

XC18 wrote:
I got them as wound buffer for the SAG mek, and maybe as screening unit for my walkers, though this is quite situational
Pretty much it.

Big gunz are far superior as a retinue to mek due to t7 and 3+ in front. Besides, they're doing the shooting too.

But if you are using traktor cannons, that ends up being a waste.

I don't know where I got all of my gretchin. I have three sheets still on the sprue, 10 painted, and 20 assembled, but I think I scooped all but the first set up on trades at one time or another.

the issue with mek gunz as SAG protectors is literally every gun either has a range issue with the sag, or doesnt want to fire at the same unit at all. If your SAG is sitting at the edge of your deployment zone, which allows the mek gunz to still fire at something 9/10 of the time, hes going to get focus fired to hell and back. Mek gunz durability are mainly because theyre require way more points to remove than they cost to bring, theyre actually not hard to remove if you really want to. my friends at the FLGS kill mine all the time because they fething hate my lobbas lol, but they usually dedicate ~200pts to remove 90pts lol

Plus, its a heavy slot. And every single one of our tactics outside green tide NEEDS heavy slots. Ork foc really should have given us a 4th heavy. I dont have a single list where i dont have any heavy slots used, either as wagons, nauts, or mek gunz.

When I started playing Orks I didn't know what MANz stood for so just in case: Mega Armor Nobz

 iplaywithtoys wrote:
When I started playing Orks I didn't know what MANz stood for so just in case: Mega Armor Nobz

I didn't know that, I thought it was something to do with Mek's thanks!

General: I made a list that involves a lot of speed and would like your opinions on it but basically it's two painboyz in a group of ten boyz in a trukkeach with a nob and poss pole, and two units of three Deffkoptas, thoughts? I would really like to include Power Klaws but I don't know how to make the points..

Also how do I go about making Boyz Fearless?

Theres a few ways to make boyz fearless, though most of them arent readily available.

First, and the easiest, is Grotsnik. He grants the unit he joins FNP and Fearless and Rampage, though the boyz will never get rampage (truth, nothing except MANz ever will unless theyre in danger of being wiped, and its overkill on MANz since they dont need it). He costs a pretty penny though, and cant detach from a dying unit to join a stronger one - it has to fully be wiped out before he can join a new one.

Second, is a Stompa being within 6" of a unit. This is the only other way the normal codex can grant fearless to boyz, and has obvious point issues and legally fieldable issues (LoW slot debates)

Third, is in the WAAAAGH! Ghaz suppliment which is the Big Boss Pole for 20pts - the unit has fearless.

Actually i think thats it, all the other fearless orks are formations or vehicles. Ideally though if you can field a stompa thats 2-3 units of boyz that will be fearless, but its very expensive to bring for that reason alone lol