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For those people out of the know, FW has now released 3 new imperial knights, with more on the way.

Here are their rules:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/M/Magaera.pdf
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk//Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Castigator.pdf
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lancer.pdf

Magaera: More durable than a normal knight due to better ion shield and 6 IWND roll. Good vs MEQ, but not as good as the paladin.

Castigator: Again, good vs MEQ, which the paladin already does. Loses Str D weapon and secondary gun.

Lancer: Better vs large single targets like wraithknights and the like. limited firepower in the shooting phase.

Now, love or hate the models, my question is this: Are these knights a better pick than the stock paladin or errant? How many would you include in a list (the limit normally being 2 at 2k points)

Personally I like the castigator model, but I can't see it doing anything, besides sub-par anti air, that the paladin couldn't already do.

Castigator also functions as overall anti-horde, especially with the twin link and deflagrate, it will absolutely devour hordes as most will spread out against a paladin's blast.

Paladins are the most versatile really, but the others prove they have a use as well.

Maybe I was a little harsh on the castigator. It can certainly decimate hordes or even large squads of meq/teq faster than any other knight in cc, especially if you can get them to pile in around its base in good number. If it had a stubber or something to let it threaten multiple units a turn I would be all over it. Being able to shoot one target with your main gun but also tag a different target for assault is one of the things that makes a knight good imo.

Do knights need more anti horde though? I mean 2 battle cannon shots and then stomp attacks, is that not enough?

The way I see them compared to "basic" knights:


Magaera-increases durability (by quite alot), but dealing out far less damage. good when you need a "tank", maybe as your knight warlord to make that "STW" point even harder. when upgraded he also becomes the "destroy all fortifications" knight, but I'm not sure knights need any help doing THAT.

Castigator-better against massed troops and more flexible shooting (can snap-shoot), but less useful against single high value targets. he's good when you are an all-knight army to extend your versatility, but as an allied knight he looses some of his "I brake stuff" theme, and looses in combat to other knights.

Lancer-the knight hunter. he is literally made to be a counter-assault unit against other knights. also does a better job than a regular knight at handling high-end MCs like wraithknight or riptide (fast enough to chase, and his gun hurts them) and SHs in general. however he is even worse per cost at dealing with masses. I'd take him as a counter to an "allied knight meta", or in a knight army as the "neutralize enemy SH" knight.

I bought the castigator and am planning to work him into all my lists because he fits a role that I need to fill. He has good ranged shooting, he is fast(that flank speed yo). He has the ability to pick off small 5 man units reliably(since skilled players know how to space, he is better than a large blast). Can reliably delete a combat squad or two, and most importantly he does not care about invis at all as well as has a way to mitigate the charge into terrain at I1 and the rubber lance(lol) syndrome with dice. If I am in base with 3-4 models I will take those auto hits over having 2 D hits.

Also against like 90% of the things you fight 10 ap 2 with re-roll armor is going to be good enough compared to D

Honestly if he had a second gun I would be putting him in the rediculous category instead of just good.

Just remember the issue the castigator shares with the lancer in the complete lack of secondary guns, he is unable to aim his gun at one target, than charge at another. shooting at a 5-man squad with him is rather wasteful.

And the S10AP2 armorbane is enough for most, yes, but not against other SH-where it really counts.
Like I said, he's the knight that does not like fighting other knights.

I am loving how they are handling the Knights thus far (at least in terms of rules). The painful lack of variety in the "Codex" has been fixed elegantly by Forge World's Knights, all of which serve their own purpose without being stupidly broken or pointlessly overcosted.

Given the obvious lack of model count in a Knight army, an army of all Knight variants feels quite a bit like a D&D party, which is excellent.

YES !! Finaly some rules.

I'm loving the FW Knights.

IK needed the variety.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
For those people out of the know, FW has now released 3 new imperial knights, with more on the way.
Personally I like the castigator model, but I can't see it doing anything, besides sub-par anti air, that the paladin couldn't already do.

The Paladin is not good against MEQ. Small squads of marines can easily tarpit it for a few turns. It has <33% chance to pop open an incomming Rhino. Castigator has none of these problems.

The forgeworld knights are very obviously designed to work in conjunction with other knights. They even have a rule saying you need to take another knight.

I think the summary of the different knights is a good one.

Another point to consider is that the castigator bolt cannon is TL, Str 7, and the castigator is pretty fast. This makes him pretty good at getting around to the rear and flanks of vehicles and flyers. He is the best AA knight thus far. As has been mentioned previously most of the IK have a problem dealing with MEQ in a timely fashion due to the low number of attacks. The castigator has no such problems as the MEQ will have to pile in at I4 and then all get hit at I2.

The lancer is great against other IK and high profile targets. It should also be noted that the lance's shooting attack is a decent method to open transports. Unless you get into an AV10 arc though expect to have to remove an HP of two first.

I really like the maegera. It is extremely tough and with the upgraded rad cleanser and claw it comes with some great options. The rad cleanser is awesome if you can get a wound through. The claw can remove buildings when it destroys them. This can be a major deal if your opponent brings fortifications to use as LoS blockers or blocking off sections of the board.

I am looking forward to the other arm options and the flamer castigator. Forgeworld is really spot on so far.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Just remember the issue the castigator shares with the lancer in the complete lack of secondary guns, he is unable to aim his gun at one target, than charge at another. shooting at a 5-man squad with him is rather wasteful.

And the S10AP2 armorbane is enough for most, yes, but not against other SH-where it really counts.
Like I said, he's the knight that does not like fighting other knights.

Indeed and if Super heavies are an issue for your list, the castigator is not the knight for you.

My list can handle super heavies, where I have issues is that I cant deal with invis units, I cant deal with swarms, etc.

In addition a shot is only as wasteful as the outcome. Sure would killing 5 marines be a waste if thats all it did. Maybe, however if those marines were on a objective on the otherside of the table that you cant reach? Having that option is what I like about it.

I think each of the knights have their strengths and weaknesses. I think the castigator fits my list quite well.

Mavnas wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
For those people out of the know, FW has now released 3 new imperial knights, with more on the way.
Personally I like the castigator model, but I can't see it doing anything, besides sub-par anti air, that the paladin couldn't already do.

The Paladin is not good against MEQ. Small squads of marines can easily tarpit it for a few turns. It has <33% chance to pop open an incomming Rhino. Castigator has none of these problems.

But a rhino isn't an MEQ now is it. It's a vehicle, which I totally agree is not a good target for the paladins. Hoever I don't understand how you can say that 2 ap3 pie plates a turn are not good vs marines.

In close combat sure, MEQ can tie up a knight for a while, providing stomp attacks do not go very well.

Would you guys pay the 25 points for the claw on the magaera? It seems a little overcosted imo.

Its kind of funny that the Castigator's S10 AP2 melee is considered weak when for years people wanted to force D-Weapons to be S10 AP2. /rolls eyes

SJ

That moment when you realize Knights have more flavor than Chaos Space Marines.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Its kind of funny that the Castigator's S10 AP2 melee is considered weak when for years people wanted to force D-Weapons to be S10 AP2. /rolls eyes

SJ

Its not considered weak, its considered weak IN COMPARISON.

And considering the "make D S10AP1 ignores cover" (not ap2) came from an age where D ignored all saves (even invuls) at all times, and was practically "that model is dead" even when aimed at SH units, alot have changed.
D nowdays is nowhere near as powerful. and as he stands right now, he isn't that terribly powerful.

And in any case, the castigator is S10AP2, when the other knights are SD. for the same price.
So its unquestionable that he is worse when it comes to fighting high profile targets.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
For those people out of the know, FW has now released 3 new imperial knights, with more on the way.
Personally I like the castigator model, but I can't see it doing anything, besides sub-par anti air, that the paladin couldn't already do.

The Paladin is not good against MEQ. Small squads of marines can easily tarpit it for a few turns. It has <33% chance to pop open an incomming Rhino. Castigator has none of these problems.

But a rhino isn't an MEQ now is it. It's a vehicle, which I totally agree is not a good target for the paladins. Hoever I don't understand how you can say that 2 ap3 pie plates a turn are not good vs marines.

In close combat sure, MEQ can tie up a knight for a while, providing stomp attacks do not go very well.

Would you guys pay the 25 points for the claw on the magaera? It seems a little overcosted imo.

My point, which got lost in there somewhere was that MEQ in a rhino are a potential problem for the paladin as you can't actually pop the rhino to get at the creamy 3+ armor save filling inside.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Its kind of funny that the Castigator's S10 AP2 melee is considered weak when for years people wanted to force D-Weapons to be S10 AP2. /rolls eyes

SJ

Its not considered weak, its considered weak IN COMPARISON.

And considering the "make D S10AP1 ignores cover" (not ap2) came from an age where D ignored all saves (even invuls) at all times, and was practically "that model is dead" even when aimed at SH units, alot have changed.
D nowdays is nowhere near as powerful. and as he stands right now, he isn't that terribly powerful.

And in any case, the castigator is S10AP2, when the other knights are SD. for the same price.
So its unquestionable that he is worse when it comes to fighting high profile targets.

The key point there is basically that its other super heavies. He is far better at fighting a majority of units out there than the other variants. So as long as you have a way to deal with super heavies in your list you have nothing to worry about.

 herpguy wrote:
That moment when you realize Knights have more flavor than Chaos Space Marines.

DA have more flavor then CSM, it's why I'm swapping to 30k, sure the Kakophoni aren't as good as blastmasters but at least I'll have flavor!

My point, which got lost in there somewhere was that MEQ in a rhino are a potential problem for the paladin as you can't actually pop the rhino to get at the creamy 3+ armor save filling inside.

Sure I completely agree. The castigator is probably the best knight for taking down a rhino reliably at range. That said, shooting 380 points of your army just to bring down a rhino seems a little excessive, especially if it leaves the knight unable to charge the troops that came out. A paladin or errant on the other hand may have been able to take their main gun shots at something else, and then charge the rhino.

Swings and roundabouts really. I am warming up to the castigator though, I may get one.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

My point, which got lost in there somewhere was that MEQ in a rhino are a potential problem for the paladin as you can't actually pop the rhino to get at the creamy 3+ armor save filling inside.

Sure I completely agree. The castigator is probably the best knight for taking down a rhino reliably at range. That said, shooting 380 points of your army just to bring down a rhino seems a little excessive, especially if it leaves the knight unable to charge the troops that came out. A paladin or errant on the other hand may have been able to take their main gun shots at something else, and then charge the rhino.

Swings and roundabouts really. I am warming up to the castigator though, I may get one.

Except you can charge the units in the rhino that come out afterwords.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

My point, which got lost in there somewhere was that MEQ in a rhino are a potential problem for the paladin as you can't actually pop the rhino to get at the creamy 3+ armor save filling inside.

Sure I completely agree. The castigator is probably the best knight for taking down a rhino reliably at range. That said, shooting 380 points of your army just to bring down a rhino seems a little excessive, especially if it leaves the knight unable to charge the troops that came out. A paladin or errant on the other hand may have been able to take their main gun shots at something else, and then charge the rhino.

Swings and roundabouts really. I am warming up to the castigator though, I may get one.

Except you can charge the units in the rhino that come out afterwords.

Of course, but that depends on how close you are doesn't it. You are going to have to be pretty close (9 inches at most) to the rhino to even have a chance at getting those marines if they disembark away from you.
You of course can do it, but my point was that a knight with 2 gun might be able to threaten more than one target, potentially a closer one that you have a greater chance of reaching.

Agreed that they can do that, but honestly for the knight I like the castigator in that it has good reliable ranged offensive output while still being extremely threatening. Since I am building an offense based assault list having that ability to threaten at range while also providing good board control is awesome.

I can reliably get 7 hits every turn with the castigator at str 7 ap 3, its better against vehicles than either of the blast versions. It can do something against fliers, it has the ability to move really fast even through terrain(that 3d6 run move).

If you are looking at pure killing potential then i would give it to the other knights in certain situations. However I find the tactical flexibility of the castigator to be superior.

Now I might be a little biased since I have one on the way.....

I think in a 2k list I might just take one of each, although I'll hold off buying the lancer (not a big fan of the model or rules) and the Magaera for a while until any further FW models are released. Doing this would leave 80 points left over to get an anti air turret, as long as you do not buy the claw for the magaera (which seems quite overcosted).

There have been many pictures of a knight with a giant flamer weapon after all. Also a big volkite gun too.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/06/forgeworld-new-imperial-knight-unveiled.html
(also looks like the castigator might get the option of a giant chainfist?)

 BoomWolf wrote:

And the S10AP2 armorbane is enough for most, yes, but not against other SH-where it really counts.
Like I said, he's the knight that does not like fighting other knights.

I'd say its good against any super heavy that doesn't have a Str D or Str10 attacks.

I think any Knight, except the Lancer, that hits another knight ends with both knights dead.

And because Knights are I4 they can actually take out most Titans moderately reliably before they swing.

I think they played around with the equipment but it looks like all the arms are interchangeable which means if you can get a copy of just the arms you should be able to play any of the knights off the same chassis.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

And the S10AP2 armorbane is enough for most, yes, but not against other SH-where it really counts.
Like I said, he's the knight that does not like fighting other knights.

I'd say its good against any super heavy that doesn't have a Str D or Str10 attacks.

I think any Knight, except the Lancer, that hits another knight ends with both knights dead.

And because Knights are I4 they can actually take out most Titans moderately reliably before they swing.

Except the castigaor will be the only one to die when facing other knights.

That's my whole point, he's better against light targets, but against really nasty stuff he is worse off.

Castigator does have a rough time against other knights, but its not like he cant kill em.


He should be able to take a hull point off with shooting, and a str 10 hammer of wrath +5 str 10 ap2 attacks can still mess up a knight in melee.


They are not his prime target though.


Im acctually in the beginnings of converting up a Tyranid Knight atm. Not sure if i wanna use the lancer or castigator profile yet.

If your knight is fighting other knights you are gonna have a bad time. That is not where you want your knight to be, fighting other super heavies unless its the lancer on the charge.

Everyone else can expect mutual destruction.

So for fighting anything else the castigator is better(outside of t6 multi- model units)

And outside good invul saves.

After all, the S10 deals 1 wound per hit you need to save from, the SD usually deals 1d3 wounds you need to save from.
Higher chances to actually get a kill, especially when SS or the likes comes into play.

And there are a few units out there that pack a 3++ and provide an actual threat to the knight.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And outside good invul saves.

After all, the S10 deals 1 wound per hit you need to save from, the SD usually deals 1d3 wounds you need to save from.

This depends on how you play that rule. In my group we roll once to save vs a str D weapon, and if that fails it inflicts D3 wounds.
To quote:

The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1.

People have been playing it either way.