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Is there anything in the game, at all, that supports that method? the rules state quite obvioulsy that the order of attack is hit->wound->save.
No logic is doing the D3 after making saves, its a houserule nerf that actually does render the castigator superior, and makes invuls stronger than they should be against D weapons.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Is there anything else in the game that causes multiple wounds off of a single hit? I can't think of any outside of instant death. This is a new thing for 40k as far as I am aware.
The most comparable thing would be cannons in fantasy, which do follow this pattern.
I could be wrong, however I disagree with this:
No logic is doing the D3 after making saves
If you are talking about logic, then there is only 1 attack, so there should only be one save. It is such a strong attack that it will do multiple wounds of damage, but if the attack gets deflected it won't do anything.
I believe there is a topic on dakka discussing this very thing at the moment.
Just got my response from FW. The tempest attack stacks with deflagerate.
Now its an entirely different animal. Getting those automatic hits, followed by a second round of hits to really finish it off......Glad I bought the right one
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: Just got my response from FW. The tempest attack stacks with deflagerate.
Now its an entirely different animal. Getting those automatic hits, followed by a second round of hits to really finish it off......Glad I bought the right one
Wow. I'm surprised. I was sure they wouldn't work together. Not just because of the wording of the rules, but because that does seem ridiculously powerful.
Edit: Question here though: What is the 'range' in this quotation from deflagrate?
Models in the targeted unit must still be in range in order for these additional hits to take effect.
Does this mean base to base, or still in cc?
Edit 2: I guess this is just a copy and paste from the horus heresy too, which has deflagrate on ranged weapons. I guess in cc this 'range' means nothing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/25 17:04:54
So they said that it was a copy and paste error, and that when it refers to "normal attacks" it just means that it happens after any attacks you make with that weapon.
Here is the copy/paste:
Hi there.
The Tempest attack states that you use the weapons profile to carry out the attacks, this includes the special rules for the weapon as well including Deflagrate. The Deflagrate rules that are shown in the Castigators rules profile are a cut and paste from the Horus Heresy books which were written before the Castigator rules. When they refer to 'after normal attacks' this just means after any other attacks from the weapon have been performed
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
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BoomWolf wrote: You make saves first, and number of wounds later?
Its because of the order presented in the Destroyer table.
If you roll a 2-5: The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically. At this point, a single wound has been suffered. After wounds are suffered, you take saves. Then, you see the second part, which says it causes it to lose D3 wounds instead of 1. This happens after the step where saves are taken. Thus, you take one save against a Destroyer hit before its multiplied.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Leth wrote: Just got my response from FW. The tempest attack stacks with deflagerate.
Now its an entirely different animal. Getting those automatic hits, followed by a second round of hits to really finish it off......Glad I bought the right one
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Over twice the length of the regular one. Haven't measured mine in a while.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The Acheron looks awesome. The hellstorm template (16" x 5" if I remember correctly) is massive and the weapon even gets to roll 2 dice and pick highest for armour pen. Along with flank speed this knight can get a huge chunk of any army under the template. It can even shoot a different target and charge that target with the HB.
The reaper chain fist is kind of funny though as it seems likely overkill but if you get into CC with even a warlord titan it is going to be sorry.
That chainfist is evil. Not only is it Str. D (admittedly the toned down one, not apoc) it is AP 2 and has a good chance if doing lots of damage. That would put most non-cc titans in a pickle.
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ansacs wrote: The Acheron looks awesome. The hellstorm template (16" x 5" if I remember correctly) is massive and the weapon even gets to roll 2 dice and pick highest for armour pen. Along with flank speed this knight can get a huge chunk of any army under the template. It can even shoot a different target and charge that target with the HB.
The reaper chain fist is kind of funny though as it seems likely overkill but if you get into CC with even a warlord titan it is going to be sorry.
Those apoc templates are pretty big.
I just bought some to go with my Aquila Strongpoint and I about had a heart attack when I put together the apocalyptic mega-blast. Damn thing is 15" wide.
And the Helstorm template is 16.5"x5"
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Lord, these things are brutal. But... an entire army with no infantry? Still can't wrap my head around it tactically. No matter how many neat Knight variants you've got, surely it's still a kind of one-note army?
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Its a little one dimensional, but with the FW variants they at least have all the necessary tools. Except possibly reliable AA.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Honestly an all knight army is an unbalanced army. It has 3 main weaknesses that I see;
1) 4-5 AV13/12 superheavies. This means if the opponent shows up with the right army they could table you and you will not be able to hide out of LoS. An example would be a serpent + fire dragon spam army or haywire tek necron builds.
2) Uber low model count means that some MSU builds bring more ObjSec units than you can even kill in a game. This coupled with no ObjSec of your own could mean a near auto lose barring you somehow tricking the opponent.
3) Weak AA coupled with the problems mentioned above could make it extremely difficult to handle some flyer based builds especially necrons with nightscythes and haywire.
IMO the new forgeworld knights make the knight army more diverse and less of a one trick pony but at the cost of the addy lance's pure survivability during the early game when you are still clustered up. Late game the addy lance lost most of it's abilities anyways so the forgeworld knights will probably have an edge there. This will probably help a lot in making the pure imperial knight army something that can go 6 games straight with wins. If they add an AA knight and a barrage weapon knight I think the knight army will be as complete as it can be without an ObjSec knight (which seems ridiculous).
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You can still have an Adamantium Lance and the Forge World knights. they aren't part of it, but you can still take them.
Its 2 detachments. One of the lance, and then another with the Forge World Knights.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: You can still have an Adamantium Lance and the Forge World knights. they aren't part of it, but you can still take them.
Its 2 detachments. One of the lance, and then another with the Forge World Knights.
True you can. However most people play games with an upper limit of 2k points. Lance formation needs 3 knights, and a pure imperial knight list needs at least 3 knights. 6 knights don't fit into 2k.
Edit: Unless you are playing unbound or taking them as LoW or something. I really haven't bothered reading the rules for all these detachments and CAD forces in 7th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/27 05:13:37
The point of the castigaor is to nullify the weaknesses that a normal knight list faces. It basically is what allows a 100% knight list to be competitive
Units that the Castigaor one shots that are "anti-knight":
- Paladins with stacked Hammerhand
- Thunder wolf Cavalry
- Fearless Blob squads (Orks, imperial guard, tyranid gribblies)
- Melta bomb squads
- Flyers (Or at least has a chance at them compared to the other knights)
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I believe the Knight Detachment is 1-3 Knights. Not only 3.
So you could have an Adamantium Lance of Paladins or Errants and then 1-3 Knights of any variety.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
In a bound list do you not have to take a primary detachment from a codex (or IA) anymore?
A primary knight detachment is 3 knights base.
An allied detachment is 1-3 knights.
Can a formation be your primary detachment/ warlord? If yes then sure you can take adamantine lance and 2 FW knights. If not then you won't be able to fit it all in.
Big Blind Bill wrote: In a bound list do you not have to take a primary detachment from a codex (or IA) anymore?
A primary knight detachment is 3 knights base.
An allied detachment is 1-3 knights.
Can a formation be your primary detachment/ warlord? If yes then sure you can take adamantine lance and 2 FW knights. If not then you won't be able to fit it all in.
Per the FAQ, which Erretas the IK codex detachment rules, an IK detachment is 1-3 Knights IG any type, and if you have at least 3 Knights, one can be Warlord. You could run three separate 1-Knight detachments, and still select one of the Knights as Warlord. There is no longer a requirement of 3 Knights in a primary detachment.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
A while ago I homebrewed up my own Knight variant -- with jump jets and Deep Strike, because HELL YEAH -- and I'm very interested in what the IK-savvy folks in this thread think of it.
Mostly in spoilers to avoid a Wall of Text that strays slightly from the topic:
Some Knight Houses swear fealty directly to the Imperium, others to the Adeptus Mechanicus, but a few devote themselves to the Ecclesiarchy. For their piety and fealty, these holy warriors are rewarded with a unique pattern of Knight: the Angelus. At rest, the Knight Angelus merely seems more streamlined and elegant than conventional Knights, as well as more lightly armed. Only the tell-tale exhaust tubes of jump jets betray its unique nature. When the Knight Angelus activates for battle, however, from its back unfold enormous shimmering fields of energy. These Wings of Light, along with the jump jets, allow the Knight Angelus to fly for brief periods or even leap from a low-orbiting spacecraft and smash down on the heads of the infidel. The same arcane generators that project the Wings of Light can also produce an Ion Shield like that of other Knights -- but they cannot do so at the same time as they form the Wings. Likewise, the Angelus' main ranged weapon, its Pillar of Fire, is not a flamer but in fact the redirected and concentrated exhaust of its jump jets, which when wielded this way cannot be used for movement. Thus at any given moment, the pilot must choose between mobility and combat power.
Rules:
Spoiler:
Force Organization: A Knight Angelus is a Lord of War for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army Unit Type: vehicle (super-heavy walker)
Wargear: Heavy Bolter Reaper Chainsword* Ion Shield* Pillar of Fire** Wings of Light*
Wings of Light: The Knight Angelus may use its Wings of Light once per turn: - to enter play by Deep Strike (once per game, obviously!); or - to move up to 24" in the Movement Phase; or - to reroll its charge distance during the Assault Phase. While using the Wings of Light, the Knight Angelus can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, it cannot end its move on top of other models and can only end its move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the model on top of it. However, the Knight Angelus may not use its Wings of Light in the same turn as it uses its Pillar of Fire or its Ion Shield.
Special Rules: Deep Strike Hammer of Heaven* Limited Power* Shield of Faith
*Unique Special Rules:
Hammer of Heaven: When the Knight Angelus enters play by Deep Strike, it suffers a mishap as normal if it lands on top of or within 1" of a Gargantuan Creature, Super-Heavy Vehicle, or Super-Heavy Walker. However, if the Knight lands on top of or within 1" of any other unit, the Knight does not mishap and immediately makes a Stomp attack on the unit(s) instead. The Knight is then immediately moved the minimum distance so as to be no longer within 1" of any surviving model. Note the Knight must make this attack even if the units landed on are friendly. A Knight Angelus suffers a mishap as normal if it lands on top of impassible terrain or partially or wholly of the board.
Limited Power: The Knight Angelus may not use its Pillar of Fire or its Ion Shield in the same turn as either making a Deep Strike or using its Wings of Light.
Design Notes
Spoiler:
I'm using Ovion's costing rules, but since his are calibrated for normal vehicles, not Super Heavies, I'm multiplying all the costs by three.
So, starting with a Knight Paladin:
REPLACE 2 Heavy Stubbers w/ 1 heavy bolter: +/-0 Replace Battle Cannon with Pillar of Fire: +/-0 (as a rough guess)
ADD 1) Wings of Light & Deep Strike: - basically a Jump Unit, albeit without Hammer of Wrath (15 pts normally, x3 for Superheavy): +45 - wait, vehicles can't normally be Jump Units! (10 pts x3): +30 2) Hammer of Heaven: - Partially immune to Deep Strike mishaps (10 pts x3): +30 - Holy feth, can ATTACK on a Deep Strike? (10 pts x3): +30 3) Shield of Faith, which gives you a 6++ whenever you can't use the Ion Shield's 4++ instead, as well as Adamantium Will in case some one decides to try a psychic power on a super-heavy for some reason (10 pts x3): +30
SUBTRACT: Limited Power: a major restriction on both its main weapon (-10) and more importantly its Ion Shield (-20): -30
Net: +135 points
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/27 12:54:46
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: A while ago I homebrewed up my own Knight variant -- with jump jets and Deep Strike, because HELL YEAH -- and I'm very interested in what the IK-savvy folks in this thread think of it.
Mostly in spoilers to avoid a Wall of Text that strays slightly from the topic:
I really like it (and not just for the conversion possibilities of an Ecclesiarchy Knight!), but I'm not sure about the torrent flamer for the Pillar of Fire rule.
My thought would be that it would move as you described in the Wings of Light rule, but where it starts and ends its movement would be a radius (perhaps 3") where every model would take a S7 AP3 hit with no cover saves allowed. I imagine it would be the huge blast of the jet engines would just wash over the ground around it as it took off and landed.
Giving it a pair of Reaper Chainswords with built-in Melta Cannons (that fire as a twin-linked weapon) would be rather unique and fit with the SoB melta/flamer theme. I suppose I'm leaning towards it being an almost purely assault variant—perhaps rather Penitent Engine-esque— with the ability to pop a tank.
Not sure how to incorporate that to your rules though. I just feel the tiny torrent template is quite lacklustre, even with all the special Deep Strike and Flying abilities.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I'd change the Wings of Light to be the following.
Wings of Light: The Knight Angelius has the Deep Strike rule. During each turn, the Angelius may use its Wings to either move up to 18" in the movement phase ignoring terrain and models. Alternatively, it may use the Wings to reroll its assault distance.
I think 24" is a little too far.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Helpful comments, thanks. The idea of making it flame things as it descends doubles down on the "I land on you and kill you or else you kill me next turn" thing, but it's also awesome.
How would the Angelus complement the Knights we're now seeing from Forgeworld? There's a lot more tactical diversity in an IK force now.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
4000pts
3000pts
1000pts
2500pts 
