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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Have I mentioned that I love tanks? Well, a superheavy is even more tank to love, and while the Sisters aren’t the Guard or the Marines, my 2014 fandex/expansion included Sororitas versions of the Baneblade, Shadowsword, and Stormlord, and I’m now updating them for 8th, plus a brand-new supersized Exorcist.
Since Dakkanauts have already given me great feedback on other units that made them much better than their 2014 versions, I have high hopes for this thread. Please read and reply with your reactions, especially your criticisms and your suggestions for improvements!

Rules, fluff, & design notes follow, with lots of spoiler tags to avoid Wall Of Text. Note that I assume you have access to either the IG codex or Imperial Armour to get the wording of the Adamantium Tracks, Explodes (2D6”, D6), and Steel Behemoth rules, since I don’t want to break Dakka’s rules on reprinting verbatim from GW-copyrighted text.

***

LADIES OF WAR

New Ability:

Mighty Fortress
Sororitas superheavies are more than massive war machines: They are mobile monuments of the Imperial faith. Icons and holy emblems are painted on their hulls, armoured reliquaries display the bones and teeth of saints, and high-powered laud hailers blast hymns at deafening volume, enheartening the faithful and harrowing the heretic.
Spoiler:

If a model has the Mighty Fortress ability, it has the following effects:
At the start of each turn, gain one Miracle dice.
Once per phase, you can perform an Act of Faith for this unit, even if you have already performed one or more Acts of Faith in that phase.
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of other Adeptus Ministorum units whilst they are within 6” of this model. (This bonus is already included in this model’s Leadership).


Design Notes:
Spoiler:

This rule goes on all the units below and contributes 60 points to the point costs I assigned them:
+1 MD/turn: equivalent to expending a 5-pt Incensor Cherub a turn (you don’t get to roll two, pick one, but it’s not limited to one unit, either); assume this lives for 4 turns on average = 20.
Can do an AOF each phase even if you’ve already done one: like a 5-pt Simulacrum, only on a much tougher platform. In https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/785928.page#10750845" target="_new" rel="nofollow">this thread we made a Vehicle Simulacrum on a regular tank 15 points; say 20 for a superheavy tank.
+1 to Sororitas Ld: Like a Laud hailer, which we worked out a cost of 10 points as tank wargear for here, but on a tougher and bigger platform – AND it affects all Adeptus Ministorum, not just Sororitas, which will matter more once I homebrew some Frateris: say 20.



*

A note on costing Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, & Shield of Faith:
Spoiler:

Normally, GW doesn’t assign a point value to army-wide special rules, it just seems to assume that they’re all equivalent. But these homebrew Sororitas superheavies are all based on IG Baneblade variants – which don’t get to use their Regimental Doctrines when they’re the only unit in their detachment (i.e. a super-heavy auxiliary detachment); you have to take at least three Baneblade variants (a superheavy detachment) or a superheavy and three HQs (a supreme command detachment).
Unlike IG doctrines, however, the Sororitas special rules are so central to the army’s identity that I want our superheavies to have them all the time, even in a single-unit detachment. That means no HQ tax.
How to put a point cost on this mild advantage? 3 HQs are the minimum “tax” for getting an Guard superheavy tank that can use Regimental Doctrines. Now, generic Guard HQs are fairly cheap and useful, at 30-40 points piece, but let’s assume at least one of the 3 you take with your superheavy is a tax. That means I’ll add 30 points to the cost of these Sororitas superheavies to make up for not having to take any other units with them to get AOF etc.


Why no sponsons?
Spoiler:

Another wrinkle of these Sororitas superheavies I’ll note here: None of them gets a sponson option. Why? Well, besides sponsons adding even more points cost, none of the Exorcist-based MBTs in the tanks thread get sponsons, and I’ve decided it’s not a Sisterly thing… perhaps because they have to drive down streets in urban environments a lot (protecting places of worship) and don’t want to be any wider than they have to.


*

New Vehicle Wargear:

Armoured Pulpit (20 points)
1 Adeptus Ministorum character embarked on a transport with this upgrade may ride in the pulpit. This character may use aura abilities and make ranged attacks as if they were not embarked, measuring ranges from any point on the hull. This character may also be targeted by ranged attacks, but they gain the benefits of being in cover and are never considered the closest viable target to the model shooting at them.

Design Notes:
Armoured Pulpit is from the tanks thread.

*

Flameblade
(410 points per model, 1 model per unit)

The Flameblade is a variant of the Imperial Guard Baneblade that replaces the main cannon with a Titan-scale flamer, trading range for sheer incinerating power. The Guard’s general-purpose superheavy thus becomes a highly specialized flame-spewing nightmare, optimized to plow through heretical city districts and set them on fire.

Spoiler:

M:* WS:5+ BS:* S:9 T:8 W:26 A:* Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Some of this model’s characteristics change as it suffers damage, as shown below:
Wounds / Move / BS / A
14-26+/ 10” / 3+ / 9
7-13 / 7” / 4+ / 6
1-6 / 4” / 5+ / 3

A Flameblade is a single model equipped with a heavy bolter, a twin heavy bolter, a multi-melta, an Urban Purification Flamer, and adamantium tracks.

Urban Purification Flamer
Range 24” Heavy 4D6 S:7 AP:-3 D:4
This weapon hits automatically.

Wargear Options:
This model may take a hunter-killer missile.
This model may take a storm bolter.
This model may replace its heavy bolter with a heavy flamer or multi-melta.
This model may replace its multi-melta with a heavy flamer or heavy bolter.
This model may replace its twin heavy bolter with immolation flamers or a twin multi-melta.

Abilities:
Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, Shield of Faith
Mighty Fortress [see above]
Explodes (2D6”, D6)
Smoke Launchers
Steel Behemoth

Faction Keywords:
Imperium, Adeptus Ministorum, Adepta Sororitas, ORDER

Keywords:
Vehicle, Titanic, Flameblade


Design Notes:
Spoiler:

Note Ld:9 comes from the +1 Ld provided by the Mighty Fortress ability.

Mighty Fortress: +60 (see introduction above for breakdown).
SoB special rules (Acts/Rites/Shield and ORDER): +30 (see above).

Improve BS:4+ to BS:3: Doesn’t increase the base cost of the vehicle. For most of the weapons, it’s reflected in their higher point costs in the SoB codex than in the IG codex. For the main gun, it’s irrelevant, since it’s a flamer and automatically hits. So +0.

Replacing Baneblade Cannon (BBC) with Urban Purification Flamer (UPF): -30
The UPF is derived from the Titan Inferno gun, which compares decently to the Baneblade cannon – more shots and they always hit, two less Strength, same AP, one more damage – except for its godawful range, since it was never intended as a main gun. I goosed it up to 24” on the grounds that if Retributors can get more range out of heavy flamers, they can get more range out of this thing too.
Since most combat in WH40K takes place at short ranges, firing 24” instead of 72” isn’t as bad as it might seem – but it’s still pretty bad, especially for a superheavy that might have to go up against other superheavies with much better range. So I’m going to somewhat arbitrarily dock this weapon 30 points... just enough to cancel out the SoB special rules package.

So:
Baneblade is 350 points, add (60+30= -30) = 410. (Not counting wargear besides the main gun). That’s more affordable than the Sororitas superheavies that follow…


*

Fire Sword
(500 points per model, 1 model per unit)

The Fire Sword is the Sororitas’ superheavy tank-killer, fortress-buster, and Titan-hunter. Derived from the Shadowsword, it retains the Guard vehicle’s sophisticated targeting system – even more lethally accurate in the hands of Sororitas markswomen – but replaces the long-range Volcano Cannon with a Consecrated Melta Cannon that does even more damage at short range.

Spoiler:

M:* WS:5+ BS:* S:9 T:8 W:26 A:* Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Some of this model’s characteristics change as it suffers damage, as shown below:
Wounds / Move / BS / A
14-26+/ 10” / 3+ / 9
7-13 / 7” / 4+ / 6
1-6 / 4” / 5+ / 3

A Fire Sword is a single model equipped with a twin heavy bolter, a Consecrated Melta Cannon, and adamantium tracks.

Consecrated Melta Cannon
Range: 48” Macro 2D6 S:16 AP:-4 D:2D6
When resolving an attack made with this weapon against a unit that is within half range, roll three D6 and discard one of the results.

Wargear Options:
This model may take a hunter-killer missile.
This model may take a storm bolter.
This model may replace its twin heavy bolter with immolation flamers or a twin multi-melta.

Abilities:
Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, Shield of Faith
Mighty Fortress [see above]
Explodes (2D6”, D6)
Smoke Launchers
Steel Behemoth

Fire Sword Targeters
Add 1 to any hit rolls you make for this model for shooting attacks that target TITANIC units.

Faction Keywords:
Imperium, Adeptus Ministorum, Adepta Sororitas, ORDER

Keywords:
Vehicle, Titanic, Fire Sword


Design Notes:
Spoiler:

Note Ld:9 comes from the +1 Ld provided by the Mighty Fortress ability.

Mighty Fortress: +60 (see introduction above for breakdown).
SoB special rules (Acts/Rites/Shield and ORDER): +30 (see above).

Replacing a BS:4+ Volcano cannon with the BS:3+ Consecrated Melta Cannon (which is an improved Reaver Melta Cannon): +/-0.
The two weapons have the same Strength and Damage.
They are very close in shots (Fire Sword averages one more), and AP (Shadowsword is one better). I’ll call that a wash.
The BS:4+ Volcano Cannon has MUCH longer range (250% more!) – but the Fire Sword has BS:3+, which increases hits by 33%, and (a form of) the Melta rule, which makes it hit really hard at really short ranges (20% of the Volcano Cannon’s range). I’m guestimating that’s a wash.
And yes, because it has the Melta rule this is better than the Reaver Melta Cannon that goes on dang Titans, but this is one of the Sisters’ Holy Trinity weapons, whereas for the Mechanicus a giant melta is just one of a dozen things in the toolkit and not particularly interesting.

Note also that BS:3+ plus Targeters means this thing is hitting other superheavies on a 2+. Yes, that’s extremely vicious. But the Sisters are great shots and this thing is their specialized superheavy-hunter. (My homebrew Virago Flyer also hits on 2+ with its big melta when making a strafing run, because, again, that’s the prime mission of a specialized unit).

So:
Shadowsword is 410 points, add (60+30= 90) = 500.


*

Storm Queen
(550 points per model, 1 model per unit)

The Sisterhood’s favorite superheavy is the Storm Queen, a lightly modified Imperial Guard Stormlord. Optimized to carry infantry into combat and support them at close range and high risk, the very attributes that make the average Guard commander nervous only attract the more aggressive Sororitas.

Spoiler:

M:* WS:5+ BS:* S:9 T:8 W:26 A:* Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Some of this model’s characteristics change as it suffers damage, as shown below:
Wounds / Move / BS / A
14-26+/ 10” / 3+ / 9
7-13 / 7” / 4+ / 6
1-6 / 4” / 5+ / 3

A Storm Queen is a single model equipped with two heavy bolters, a twin heavy bolter, a Vulcan Mega-Bolter, and adamantium tracks.

Wargear Options:
This model may take a hunter-killer missile.
This model may take a storm bolter.
This model may replace any heavy bolter with a heavy flamer or multi-melta.
This model may replace its twin heavy bolter with immolation flamers or a twin multi-melta.
This model may take an Armoured Pulpit.

Abilities:
Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, Shield of Faith
Mighty Fortress [see above]
Explodes (2D6”, D6)
Smoke Launchers
Steel Behemoth

Extended Firing Deck
Up to 20 models being transported by the Storm Queen can shoot in their Shooting phase, measuring and drawing line of sight from any point on the vehicle. Units that shoot in this manner count as having moved in they or the Storm Queen moved in the preceding Movement Phase.

Transport:
This model can transport 25 Adeptus Ministorum Infantry models. Each Jump Pack model takes the space of two other models and each Penitent Abhuman takes the space of three other models.

Faction Keywords:
Imperium, Adeptus Ministorum, Adepta Sororitas, ORDER

Keywords:
Vehicle, Titanic, Storm Queen


Design Notes:
Spoiler:

Note Ld:9 comes from the +1 Ld provided by the Mighty Fortress ability.

Mighty Fortress: +60 (see introduction above for breakdown).
SoB special rules (Acts/Rites/Shield and ORDER): +30 (see above).

Improve BS:4+ to BS:3+: that raises the % chance of a hit from 3/6 to 4/6, a 33.3% increase. Normally this is reflected in the cost of the weapons, but the main gun on each IG superheavy is wrapped up into the cost of the base platform, so we’ll have to guess: I’ll say 50 points.
So:
Stormlord is 410 points, add (60+30+50 = 140) = 550.


*


Grand Exorcist
(440 points per model, 1 model per unit)

The Grand Exorcist carries a rare and terrifying variant of the already-uncommon Exorcist Missile Launcher, scaled up for super-heavy vehicles. While it uses the same armor-piecing missiles and incendiary rockets as the standard Exorcist, the Extended Range Exorcist’s greater size accommodates extra launch tubes, increasing the rate of fire, which are fed by multiple magazines, allowing it to switch ammunition types from one volley to the next. It also boasts significantly greater range, because its much longer launch tubes allow the ejection charge to accelerate the projectile for longer, increasing its momentum, before it clears the tube and its primary rocket motor ignites.

Spoiler:

M:* WS:5+ BS:* S:9 T:8 W:26 A:* Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Some of this model’s characteristics change as it suffers damage, as shown below:
Wounds / Move / BS / A
14-26+/ 10” / 3+ / 9
7-13 / 7” / 4+ / 6
1-6 / 4” / 5+ / 3

A Grand Exorcist is a single model equipped with a heavy bolter, a twin heavy bolter, a multi-melta, an Extended Range Exorcist Launcher, and adamantium tracks.

Extended Range Exorcist Launcher
Before firing this weapon, declare which of the following profiles you will use:
Devastation: 12”-72” Heavy 4D3 S:8 AP:-3 D: D6
Conflagration: 12’-72” Heavy 4D6 S:5 AP:-2 D:1

Wargear Options:
This model may take a hunter-killer missile.
This model may take a storm bolter.
This model may replace its heavy bolter with a heavy flamer or multi-melta.
This model may replace its multi-melta with a heavy flamer or heavy bolter.
This model may replace its twin heavy bolter with immolation flamers or a twin multi-melta.

Abilities:
Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, Shield of Faith
Mighty Fortress [see above]
Explodes (2D6”, D6)
Smoke Launchers
Steel Behemoth

Faction Keywords:
Imperium, Adeptus Ministorum, Adepta Sororitas, ORDER

Keywords:
Vehicle, Titanic, Grand Exorcist


Design Notes:
Spoiler:

Note Ld:9 comes from the +1 Ld provided by the Mighty Fortress ability.

Mighty Fortress: +60 (see introduction above for breakdown).
SoB special rules (Acts/Rites/Shield and ORDER): +30 (see above).

Replace BS:4+ Baneblade Cannon (BBC) with BS:3+ Extended Range Exorcist (ERE): +/-0
I spent a couple of hours doing spreadsheets on how the ERE compared to existing superheavy weapons, and it consistently outperforms the BBC against anything T:7 or less, sometimes by a couple of wounds per average attack, sometimes less. It consistently underperforms the BBC by a wound or two (on average) for everything T:8 and up, with the weird exception of the Reaver Titan. The difference isn’t dramatic either way, so I’ll call that a wash.
The ERE has significantly greater range than the BBC, but it also has a minimum range, which the BBC doesn’t have to worry about. Given how much WH40K combat happens at short ranges, and given also how the targets you’d engage at over 72” are likely Titans and other superheavies where the ERE doesn’t perform as well as anyway, I’ll again call this a wash.

So:
Baneblade is 350 points, add (60+30= 90) = 440. (Not counting wargear besides the main gun).


*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/23 02:22:48


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Damage 4 flamer feels way too good.

And 24” is not that big a deal.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Killer. Always thought the Sisters should have a Baneblade with an inferno cannon.
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




New Orleans

I would probably pull the pulpit ability from super heavy tanks. Adding 26 ablativr wounds to any character is a bit much.

I’m going to echo that D4 on that flamer is insanely intense. You only need to wounds to go through to kill a dreadnought or a carnifex. Consider dropping the range to the original weapon system or reducing the damage to 3. The 24” range is barely even worth mentioning as a negative. There will be very little difficulty finding targets with your move value. I think giving this tank a discount for fighting against other superheavies is off the mark. The flamer alone averages 14 wounds against a knight with rotate ion shields. Right now it has too many auto-hits with too high damage. If you add in the holy trinity stratagem that flame cannon is absolutely disgusting.

You can probably guess what I’m going to say about the fire sword. It should not be able to get to BS 2+. The virago still least had to give up its defensive bonus to get there and had a more limited cannon range. Other than titans, I don’t think any other super heavy gets access to BS 2+. I’d also recommend not juicing the cannon. Why wouldn’t they just put this version on a titan if it’s better? You definitely need to remove the macro key word. Doubling wounds against titanic with this ring is overkill. 48” with a 10” move let’s you cover most of the table anyways so the range difference is mitigated except on the longest boards. Comparing one more shot to one more AP is a false equivalency. The difference between AP-4 and AP-5 is negligible. It would only be significant for an AP-2 unit in cover. The extra shot is by far the better option. If you leave it as is, you’ll have to up the cost because most of your wash comparisons give a nod to the firesword.

The Stormqueen seems fine and the giant exorcist seems ok too. I’d probably have to see it on the tabletop to really judge it. It would need a higher cost for devastating refrain.

Another concern is the some of the subfaction abilities. Ignoring AP-1, a 6+++, and potentially AP-2 is a pretty great deal. Argent shroud can advance and fire weapons so most of the range restrictions are irrelevant on a standard board. Ebon chalice cleansing flames would give you an automatic 24 S7 D4 shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
These are all workable concepts, they just need some fine tuning before moving to the play test phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/23 06:32:24


Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

The D4 Flamer is exactly what's on the Warhound. I would tone it down to D3 personally.

The Macro-Melta needs toning down. Ditch the Macro rule, and either reduce damage of number of shots. If my maths is correct this thing has the potential to put out twice as much damage as a Belicosa Cannon. I would change it to the following.

Range 48", Heavy 2D6, S14 Ap-4, Damage D3+3
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Some very good points here -- especially about the Macro rule, since I'd completely forgotten it doubled damage against other superheavies and buildings! Plus I overlooked how mobile superheavies are compared to a standard board and how that makes up for limited-range weapons. I definitely need to tone down the Flameblade and Fire Sword a little.

Flameblade range can definitely go back to the same 18" as the original Inferno Gun; that's an easy fix. I think I'll keep it at the same D4 damage, because that's what really sets it apart from other vehicle-mounted flamers.

Maybe for Fire Sword, I should keep Macro OR the melta rule, but dump the other? If so, I think the melta rule is probably the one to go, because that would make it identical to the Reaver Melta Cannon, which while Forge World is still a relatively well-known and playtested commodity.
I'm still kinda attached to BS:2+ for a Fire Sword firing at other superheavies. Anyone brave enough to come within 48" of a Reaver kinda deserves a break in my book... but yeah, that may be OTT.

Finally, I do like the Armoured Pulpit option: Remember it's written so that the character can be sniped out of it -- they're able to be targeted by any unit with the Sniper special rule, which most armies should have in this edition....

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Gainesville, VA

That's a lot to digest, and props to you for putting it all out.

Definitely think the 4D6 auto hit 4D flamer is a bit much. Either tone down the damage or the range.
Melta Cannon may have less range than the Volcano, but 48" is still pretty much enough to hit almost anything if its near the center of the battlefield, so that's still worth something I feel.

I too like the armored pulpit idea too, very thematic for the Sisters.

One thing I feel is missing, is that these do just feel a bit like IG vehicles with Sisters paint and rules. Yeah they have some fancy weaponry, but its still just a tank after all. I'm imagining something that is essentially like a rolling Catherdral, when I think of a SoB SuperHeavy, not so much bristling with guns (sure, some guns is fine), but more a delivery method for the faithful, and an awe (and terror) inspiring sight on the battle field. Slow, lumbering and incredibly tough; preachers shouting catechisms from balconies, flinging blessed ointments over the battle field, hymnals blasting out of loud hailers, Holy Relics displayed by Sisters on its armored deck, its hull full of Sisters praying before they charge out of the assault ramp into the faithless. Something like the Triumph of St Katherine, but with tracks and armor (and a few heavy flamers to keep the heretics off!).
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




New Orleans

Dropping the flameblade to 18” would help. Id also suggest dropping the weapon strength to 6. The sheer number of shots along with the high AP and damage still make it a decent tank hunter but not to the point that’s it’s an efficient tank hunter.

Drop the macro rule. Doubling damage against their preferred target is way better than rolling to die and taking the highest. Even without the macro rule the tank will put out a ton of hurt. With it, it’s one of the best knight hunters in the game.

Dropping the +1 WS against titanic also helps separate it from the shadowsword. Even without the rule, the firesword hits better than the shadowsword against any non titanic target.

Currently Chaos Demons, Chaos Space Marines (all three), Orks, Grey Knights and Tyranids lack sniper options. Dark eldar can take a maximum of six sniper rifles in their army because only 1 character and the grotesque squad leader can take them. Those armies have to kill the super heavy to get the character.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I'd drop the macro rule from the melta cannon but keep the s16. Otherwise it's just the AE shell option from the fellblade with more shots, less guaranteed damage, and way less range.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Some Thoughts:

Inferno Cannon one:
Cost is way off, the auto hitting S7 AP3 D4 flame gun isn't worth less than the baneblade cannon by 30 points. It's an absurdly strong gun.

Melta Cannon one:
It doesn't need targeters, it's a short range assault vehicle.
Also, honestly not sure if it needs to exist period, given the already existence of a 4d flamer variant and the super exorcist. It might be cool to make this one an assault transport variant instead of just having a duplicate stormlord.

Stormlord one:
It's just a stormlord. It has no real reason to exist. Both the meltagun variant and flame variant are basically assault vehicles, give the transport to the Melta Cannon one [IE: instead of a Shadowsword, it's a Doomhammer] if you want. Honestly, I think that if the melta one isn't intended to have a turret, these two should be combined, that way it's appreciably different from the Stormlord.

Grand Exorcist:
This is a popular Sisters super-heavy conversion. That said, 4d3 rockets is super crap output, only 1d3 more than the Exorcist is not worth buying a super heavy hull for. At 3d6 AT Rockets, it would still be weaker than a baneblade cannon, and it doesn't have a demolisher cannon. I might go as far as to make it 4d6 rockets from the AT launcher [this totals up to same total shots as the baneblade, at better BS but less strength.]. If any one gets targeters, it's this one.




That all said, I have a alternate proposal though: We're not pseudo-Guard, we're pseudo-Space Marines, and our gear is Space Marine hand-me-down, not Guard hand-me-down. We have Rhinos, Not-Razorbacks, and Not-Predators, not Chimerae and Leman Russes. I'd make these Fellblade chassis vehicles instead of Baneblade chassis vehicles:
Naginata: This terrifying super-heavy flame tank, named for an ancient terran polearm traditionally associated with a female warrior cult, mounts in its turret a terrifying multiple flame gun array capable of projecting an arc of blazing promethium an impressive distance and immolating whole platoons in a torrent of white-hot fire.
M10", WS5+, BS3+, S9, T9, W26, A9, Ld9, Sv2+
Naginata Incinerator Flame Gun Array: Assault 4d6, S7, AP-2, D2, Range 24", This weapon automatically hits it's target.
Twin Heavy Bolter
2x Melta Destroyer Array: Heavy 2, S8, A-4, D2d6, Range 24", Roll 1 extra die and drop the lowest when determining damage when within half range.

2x Melta Destroyer Array may be replaced with 2x Heavy Flamer Array: Heavy 4d6, S5, AP-1, Range 8", This weapon automatically hits it's target.
Spoiler:

Changed to a Legion Fellblade chassis, replacing quad lascannons with a meltagun system that has near-identical performance. Also deleted Demolisher Cannon and baked it into the main gun
Compared to the Fireblade proposal: one less AP and two less damage should tone the weapon down a bit, while keeping it at an appropriate level of power for a super heavy flame gun.

AVG expected: vs MEQ: 15 hits, 10 wounds, 7 kills, vs GEQ: 15 hits, 12 wounds, 12 kills, vs Heavy Vehicle: 15 hits, 5 wounds, 6 damage, vs Light Vehicle: 15 hits, 8 wounds, 12 damage.
Vs. Fellblade Acc. Cannon+Demolisher Cannon:
AvG expected: vs MEQ: 8 hits, 6 wounds, 5 kills. vs GEQ: 8 hits, 6 wounds, 5 kills. vs. Heavy Vehicle: 2+2 hits, 1+1 wounds, 8 damage, vs Light Vehicle: 6+2 hits, 4+1 wounds, 12 damage
Vs. BS4+ Baneblade Cannon+Demolisher Cannon:
AVG expected: vs MEQ: 8 hits, 6 wounds, 5 kills. vs GEQ: 8 hits, 6 wounds, 5 kills. vs. Heavy Vehicle: 6+2 hits, 4+1 wounds, 13 damage, vs Light Vehicle: 6+2 hits, 4+1 wounds, 13 damage

This seems an appropriate range of performance for the main gun. Somewhat better than the Fellblade/Baneblade against infantry [which should be it's ideal target], somewhat worse against heavy vehicles. Short range, but mitigated because it's an assault flame gun.

As a side note, the Glaive/Fellblade/Falchion can only replace their quad lascannons with a different, weaker AT system, so perhaps having a heavy flamer option for the sponsons isn't called for.

I imagine this thing looking like a Legion Glaive with a Warhound Inferno Cannon instead of the Volkite Heavy Carronade.



Grand Exorcist: This terrifying versatile heavy tank is a cousin of the famous Exorcist. Firing devastating antitank rocket salvos that can blast even the heaviest vehicle into a smoking crater, it is a worthy larger sister to the Exorcist
M10", WS5+, BS3+, S9, T9, W26, A9, Ld9, Sv2+
Grand Exorcist Heavy Battery: Heavy 3d3, S16, AP-3, D2d6, Range 72"
2x Grand Exorcist Light Battery: Heavy 3d3, S8, AP-3, D1d6, Range 48"
Twin Heavy Bolter
Top-Attack Guidance Array: Add one to to-hit rolls for this vehicle.
Spoiler:

Literally a Falchion
The Exorcist is a Predator without sponsons, so this one doesn't get sponsons either. That said, the light battery systems are functionally identical to the quadlas sponsons, so it's a wash and the numbers are still there.
Big missile launcher is functionally identical to a Legion Falchion. Slightly fewer shots, but +1 to hit so it's a wash. [6 shots for 5 hits, versus 7.5 shots for 5 hits]

I imagine this not having sponsons, but with 2 small partial arcs of regular size pipes and an array between and behind them of very large pipes. Alternatively, for the sanctorum version, two separate rotating launch boxes with small rockets in them, and then large vertical launch cells in the back for the heavy rockets

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 21:05:37


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






More good ideas — thanks! I definitely don’t know the Astartes superheavies at all well, I’ll definitely check those out in detail; I presume the current rules are in Imperial Armour Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, also, my old fandex DID have a 3,000 point mobile battle chapel, affectionately called CHURCHTANK, that was indeed slow and ponderous and full of angry nuns. I’m going to revive that, but it’s not based off a Baneblade variant so it requires a totally different design process I’ve not started yet...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/23 22:33:43


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 SisterSydney wrote:
More good ideas — thanks! I definitely don’t know the Astartes superheavies at all well, I’ll definitely check those out in detail; I presume the current rules are in Imperial Armour Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes?


yeah, they're in the astartes fw index.
They're basically baneblades, but Space Marine style. I think we should use their chassis instead of the Baneblade chassis. Especially since now our tanks are deimos rhinos, instead of MkIIIc for some reason, we can definitely have more hand-me-down SM old stuff as our chassis base.

Looks like this:
Spoiler:


I can imagine one of these sisters-ized pretty easily, with some crying angel skirts, fleur des lis doors [though I actually leave off these on my stuff because I like the ladders], and a decorated turret with a clear window of some kind or something.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 23:18:26


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Wow, those Marine superheavies are expensive.... I'll ponder and add some of their weapons to my comparison spreadsheets.

I do tend to see the Sisters as a hybrid between Guard and Marines. They're regular humans, just highly trained like Stormtroopers (their fellow Progenium Orphan Army graduates) and highly faithful like Priests, but wearing power armour and wielding mostly Marine-style weapons. Since the Guard is so huge, however, I can imagine it's still easier for Sisters to get Guard-pattern vehicles and modify them to get stuff that's not only Marine equipment but rare and precious even for the Astartes. There're way more Baneblades than Fellblades out there.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

The marine super heavys are currently massively overpriced for "reasons". They aren't that common, however, as I don't believe any forge world can currently make them. But maybe the Ecclesierchy could pull some strings to acquire the technology.
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




New Orleans

Scarcity hardly has any value in 40k. Leviathans were suppose to be ancient relics that are hard to come by and yet they are in every battle company. The fellblade was more balanced at its initial cost of 680. The first chapter approve pushed up the cost considerably. The chassis will be a balance nightmare though since there’s two very different versions of it available. The relic fellblade can be taken by Spce Marines and gets chapter tactics. The Hellforged fellblade can be taken by CSM and does not get access to legion tactics.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The marine super heavys are currently massively overpriced for "reasons". They aren't that common, however, as I don't believe any forge world can currently make them. But maybe the Ecclesierchy could pull some strings to acquire the technology.


We now have Deimos pattern rhinos from the Horus Heresy, and already well phased out by the time the Orders Militant of the Sororitas were incepted. I don't think access to other phased out and obsolete equipment from the Space Marines is a problem for the Sisters of Battle.
There's a bunch of lore weirdness about SoB tanks, since kits exist for them using chassis that were phased out before the official development date of the vehicles and the founding of the Adepta Sororitas, and also there's contradictory lore statements about their development.

The MkIIc rhino was already entering production during the Heresy, though the MkIc Deimos pattern would remain in widespread production for the entirely duration of the conflict to be phased out afterwords. Then, the Immolator did not exist until the tail end of M35: it was discovered by the proto-Sisters, and would also form part of the design process for the Razorback [which would be developed soon after for the Space Marines in M36]. The MkIIIa Rhino, is constructed based on the Immolator design after it was created, so we know that the "original design" Immolator is the "middle era" Immolator kit. There's also a MkIb version and a MkIIc 'Sanctorum' verison of the Immolator that must exist in the timeline too.

The existence of the MkIb Immolator model means that tanks that were definitely out of production and mothballed by the Space Marines before the Horus Heresy made their way into Sisters of Battle hands, and the fact that new Immolator models are on the Deimos chassis means that there's also new production of otherwise old Heresy-era Space Marine tanks for the Sisters of Battle. This pretty much gives the go-ahead for Sisters using the Fellblade chassis for a super-heavy, and I think it's more appropriate, since it does seem in theme to use otherwise obsolescent SM kit.


It's also worth mention that no individual technology of the Fellblade is actually entirely lost. It's just currently out of main production because it's not called for in the TO&E of a Space Marine chapter. The armor is of the same type as the Land Raider, and the base chassis design is derived from the Baneblade and up-armored and re-engined. The powerplant is the same base design as the Contemptor, but upscaled to power a massive tank; and while the Contemptor design is mostly lost, there is still a trickle of new-production non-Relic Contemptor dreadnoughts, so the technology is still around, just rare and expensive. The question isn't whether the Sisters could get their hands on Fellblade tanks, the question is whether they could get a new design created specially for them, and that's the same question that would apply to a custom Baneblade. And really, given that any new Fellblade production would be short-run, unique, and special-order anyway, the Sisters general penchant for SM hand-me-downs, and general production status of the regular Baneblade [that is to say, in mass production but experiencing an eternal production shortfall], I definitely think that special ordering made-to-order Fellblades would be more in character and probable than getting a highly-in-demand Baneblade assembly line converted over to make a special limited-run version.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Scarcity hardly has any value in 40k. Leviathans were suppose to be ancient relics that are hard to come by and yet they are in every battle company. The fellblade was more balanced at its initial cost of 680. The first chapter approve pushed up the cost considerably. The chassis will be a balance nightmare though since there’s two very different versions of it available. The relic fellblade can be taken by Spce Marines and gets chapter tactics. The Hellforged fellblade can be taken by CSM and does not get access to legion tactics.


Fellblades are very overcosted, this is well known.

As mentioned, their main arsenal is basically the same in performance to that of the Baneblade, considering the difference in BS. Add in T9 Sv2+, and then 200 points of Lascannons, and it doesn't quite get you from a ~400 point stock Baneblade to a ~900 point Fellblade. That T9 Sv2+ must be really expensive.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/04/24 22:04:36


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The marine super heavys are currently massively overpriced for "reasons". They aren't that common, however, as I don't believe any forge world can currently make them. But maybe the Ecclesierchy could pull some strings to acquire the technology.


We now have Deimos pattern rhinos from the Horus Heresy, and already well phased out by the time the Orders Militant of the Sororitas were incepted. I don't think access to other phased out and obsolete equipment from the Space Marines is a problem for the Sisters of Battle.
There's a bunch of lore weirdness about SoB tanks, since kits exist for them using chassis that were phased out before the official development date of the vehicles and the founding of the Adepta Sororitas, and also there's contradictory lore statements about their development.

The MkIIc rhino was already entering production during the Heresy, though the MkIc Deimos pattern would remain in widespread production for the entirely duration of the conflict to be phased out afterwords. Then, the Immolator did not exist until the tail end of M35: it was discovered by the proto-Sisters, and would also form part of the design process for the Razorback [which would be developed soon after for the Space Marines in M36]. The MkIIIa Rhino, is constructed based on the Immolator design after it was created, so we know that the "original design" Immolator is the "middle era" Immolator kit. There's also a MkIb version and a MkIIc 'Sanctorum' verison of the Immolator that must exist in the timeline too.

The existence of the MkIb Immolator model means that tanks that were definitely out of production and mothballed by the Space Marines before the Horus Heresy made their way into Sisters of Battle hands, and the fact that new Immolator models are on the Deimos chassis means that there's also new production of otherwise old Heresy-era Space Marine tanks for the Sisters of Battle. This pretty much gives the go-ahead for Sisters using the Fellblade chassis for a super-heavy, and I think it's more appropriate, since it does seem in theme to use otherwise obsolescent SM kit.


It's also worth mention that no individual technology of the Fellblade is actually entirely lost. It's just currently out of main production because it's not called for in the TO&E of a Space Marine chapter. The armor is of the same type as the Land Raider, and the base chassis design is derived from the Baneblade and up-armored and re-engined. The powerplant is the same base design as the Contemptor, but upscaled to power a massive tank; and while the Contemptor design is mostly lost, there is still a trickle of new-production non-Relic Contemptor dreadnoughts, so the technology is still around, just rare and expensive. The question isn't whether the Sisters could get their hands on Fellblade tanks, the question is whether they could get a new design created specially for them, and that's the same question that would apply to a custom Baneblade. And really, given that any new Fellblade production would be short-run, unique, and special-order anyway, the Sisters general penchant for SM hand-me-downs, and general production status of the regular Baneblade [that is to say, in mass production but experiencing an eternal production shortfall], I definitely think that special ordering made-to-order Fellblades would be more in character and probable than getting a highly-in-demand Baneblade assembly line converted over to make a special limited-run version.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Scarcity hardly has any value in 40k. Leviathans were suppose to be ancient relics that are hard to come by and yet they are in every battle company. The fellblade was more balanced at its initial cost of 680. The first chapter approve pushed up the cost considerably. The chassis will be a balance nightmare though since there’s two very different versions of it available. The relic fellblade can be taken by Spce Marines and gets chapter tactics. The Hellforged fellblade can be taken by CSM and does not get access to legion tactics.


Fellblades are very overcosted, this is well known.

As mentioned, their main arsenal is basically the same in performance to that of the Baneblade, considering the difference in BS. Add in T9 Sv2+, and then 200 points of Lascannons, and it doesn't quite get you from a ~400 point stock Baneblade to a ~900 point Fellblade. That T9 Sv2+ must be really expensive.

Excellent points. Seems like you have the lore of how the SoB acquire fellblade chassis worked out, let's think about points.

As stated, the current price of the fellblade is over costed by a large margin, so I wouldn't use that. The base cost of 740ppm is over twice that of a baneblade. I'd say a base cost of between 370 and 390 ppm without wargear is close, as it gets us close to the old 7th edition price of 540ppm with a full load out for a hellforged fellblade in IA 13, and the cost of 550ppm in hh when you add the option of a space marine crew (which would make sense to use because SoB have marine shooting). The only problem is that the demolisher cannon and main gun are currently free, so those will have to be compared against the new weapons you have come up with for the Sororitas. Ig demolisher cannons have a points cost of 20 so you could use that for your math, but marine and ig weapons don't always have the same cost, so your call.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/24 23:23:50


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The marine super heavys are currently massively overpriced for "reasons". They aren't that common, however, as I don't believe any forge world can currently make them. But maybe the Ecclesierchy could pull some strings to acquire the technology.


We now have Deimos pattern rhinos from the Horus Heresy, and already well phased out by the time the Orders Militant of the Sororitas were incepted. I don't think access to other phased out and obsolete equipment from the Space Marines is a problem for the Sisters of Battle.
There's a bunch of lore weirdness about SoB tanks, since kits exist for them using chassis that were phased out before the official development date of the vehicles and the founding of the Adepta Sororitas, and also there's contradictory lore statements about their development.

The MkIIc rhino was already entering production during the Heresy, though the MkIc Deimos pattern would remain in widespread production for the entirely duration of the conflict to be phased out afterwords. Then, the Immolator did not exist until the tail end of M35: it was discovered by the proto-Sisters, and would also form part of the design process for the Razorback [which would be developed soon after for the Space Marines in M36]. The MkIIIa Rhino, is constructed based on the Immolator design after it was created, so we know that the "original design" Immolator is the "middle era" Immolator kit. There's also a MkIb version and a MkIIc 'Sanctorum' verison of the Immolator that must exist in the timeline too.

The existence of the MkIb Immolator model means that tanks that were definitely out of production and mothballed by the Space Marines before the Horus Heresy made their way into Sisters of Battle hands, and the fact that new Immolator models are on the Deimos chassis means that there's also new production of otherwise old Heresy-era Space Marine tanks for the Sisters of Battle. This pretty much gives the go-ahead for Sisters using the Fellblade chassis for a super-heavy, and I think it's more appropriate, since it does seem in theme to use otherwise obsolescent SM kit.


It's also worth mention that no individual technology of the Fellblade is actually entirely lost. It's just currently out of main production because it's not called for in the TO&E of a Space Marine chapter. The armor is of the same type as the Land Raider, and the base chassis design is derived from the Baneblade and up-armored and re-engined. The powerplant is the same base design as the Contemptor, but upscaled to power a massive tank; and while the Contemptor design is mostly lost, there is still a trickle of new-production non-Relic Contemptor dreadnoughts, so the technology is still around, just rare and expensive. The question isn't whether the Sisters could get their hands on Fellblade tanks, the question is whether they could get a new design created specially for them, and that's the same question that would apply to a custom Baneblade. And really, given that any new Fellblade production would be short-run, unique, and special-order anyway, the Sisters general penchant for SM hand-me-downs, and general production status of the regular Baneblade [that is to say, in mass production but experiencing an eternal production shortfall], I definitely think that special ordering made-to-order Fellblades would be more in character and probable than getting a highly-in-demand Baneblade assembly line converted over to make a special limited-run version.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Scarcity hardly has any value in 40k. Leviathans were suppose to be ancient relics that are hard to come by and yet they are in every battle company. The fellblade was more balanced at its initial cost of 680. The first chapter approve pushed up the cost considerably. The chassis will be a balance nightmare though since there’s two very different versions of it available. The relic fellblade can be taken by Spce Marines and gets chapter tactics. The Hellforged fellblade can be taken by CSM and does not get access to legion tactics.


Fellblades are very overcosted, this is well known.

As mentioned, their main arsenal is basically the same in performance to that of the Baneblade, considering the difference in BS. Add in T9 Sv2+, and then 200 points of Lascannons, and it doesn't quite get you from a ~400 point stock Baneblade to a ~900 point Fellblade. That T9 Sv2+ must be really expensive.

Excellent points. Seems like you have the lore of how the SoB acquire fellblade chassis worked out, let's think about points.

As stated, the current price of the fellblade is over costed by a large margin, so I wouldn't use that. The base cost of 740ppm is over twice that of a baneblade. I'd say a base cost of about 370 ppm without wargear is close, as it gets us close to the old 7th edition price of 540ppm with a full load out for a hellforged fellblade in IA 13, and the cost of 550ppm in hh when you add the option of a space marine crew (which would make sense to use because SoB have marine shooting). The only problem is that the demolisher cannon and main gun are currently free, so those will have to be compared against the new weapons you have come up with for the Sororitas. Ig demolisher cannons have a points cost of 20 so you could use that for your math, but marine and ig weapons don't always have the same cost, so your call.



I've spent a lot of time thinking about the development histories of the various 40k vehicles because it's pretty convoluted, so, uh, it's not hard to add new ones too it. Maybe I'll make a thread about it in background.




Currently, according to Battlescribe since I don't have the IA for Space Marines [only own 1 IA model, and it's for Guard, so no reason to, despite playing SW, SoB, and GK. Maybe I should buy a Fellblade], a Fellblade is costed at 917 points and the Falchion is costed at 1017 points.

For the Fellblade, 917 points includes Accelerator Cannons, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, 2x Quad Lascannons.
For the Falchion, 1017 points includes Twin Volcano Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, 2x Quad Lascannons.
A Stock Baneblade, for 394 points includes a Baneblade Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, and Autocannon
A Stock Shadowsword, for 424 points includes a Volcano Cannon and Twin Heavy Bolter.

Fortunately, as described, I deliberately prepared the weapon options I proposed for Sororitas SH tanks with performance numbers very close to the Fellblade and the Falchion, but just slightly different in the die rolled to get there, so they should be costed fairly close, maybe slightly under due to shortened range, to the Fellblade and the Falchion.


So, let's cost a Fellblade appropriately.
As I demonstrated, on average, the Fellblade Accelerator Cannon+Demolisher Cannon is basically identical to the Baneblade Baneblade Cannon+Demolisher Cannon on the offense. Fellblade also has 160 points of Lascannons, so we're at 394+160 for the offensive suite. Now we want to include the +1T and +1Sv. I honestly don't know how to cost it, but I might assess it to be between 50 and 100 points, probably erring on the high side since it is T9. That gives an estimated cost of around 600-650 points for the Fellblade and the proposed Sisters version. Maybe go 625 for the SM Fellblade and 615 for the Naginata proposal, cutting some small cost for lack of range all around [why the name? The other variants are Glaive and Falchion, so I just followed the weapons naming convention and a Naginata supposedly traditionally associated with female fighters].

For the Falchion:
Compared with a Shadowsword, the Twin Volcano Cannon gets 2d6 shots at BS3+ versus the Shadowsword getting 3d3 shots at BS4+, with +1BS against Titanic. Otherwise, the profiles are identical. Falchion also has 160 points of Lascannons. 2d6 @ BS3+ averages 5 hits, 3d3 @ BS4+ averages 3 hits, 4 hits against titanic. Those 1 or 2 extra hits with the Volcano Cannon are probably also worth maybe 50-75 points, erring on the low side. Add in the 50-100 for the extra toughness and armor, that gives about 700 points for the Falchion and maybe 715 for the Sisters option [Grand Exorcist, because Sydney's name was nice for the super-Exorcist] I proposed. It's notable that I made my Grand Exorcist proposal almost outright identical on the downrange to the Falchion: +1BS [BS2+] and 3d3 shots gives it 5 hits average, and the weapon profile was the same. Changing the 8 Lascannons into 2 Exorcist Missile Systems is close to a wash, but 4 more average shots at S8 versus S9 is somewhat more versatile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/24 23:54:45


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






Some impressive work here. And I’d love to have a T:9 Sv:2+ tank. But I’m worried about trying to give one faction another’s cool toy at a reduced price, even if the official price is too high: That is the kind of thing people scream about if a GW codex does it, let alone a fandex. And lore wise, even if the Fellblade is still in production, it’s not being built on the same scale as the Baneblade, which means it’s harder to justify anyone building or customizing a special variant for the Sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: The Relic rule. If these tanks keep it, that’s annoying. If they get rid of it when the Marine versions are stuck with it, that’s unfair....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/25 00:41:57


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I'd say that's close. The only point I'd disagree on would be that the baneblade's and fellblade's main guns are equal. The baneblade has superior number of shots, strength, and damage compared to the he shells, so just flat out better there. Ae shells are better against t7 targets without invuls, but against t8 targets with invuls like most other super heavys the baneblade is better as it forces more saves increasing potential failed saves. So if you're considering the Sororitas tanks main guns as roughly equal to the fellblade's I'd cut some points. Though it may be better to err on the high side when theory crafting new units. You're call, again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SisterSydney wrote:
Some impressive work here. And I’d love to have a T:9 Sv:2+ tank. But I’m worried about trying to give one faction another’s cool toy at a reduced price, even if the official price is too high: That is the kind of thing people scream about if a GW codex does it, let alone a fandex. And lore wise, even if the Fellblade is still in production, it’s not being built on the same scale as the Baneblade, which means it’s harder to justify anyone building or customizing a special variant for the Sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: The Relic rule. If these tanks keep it, that’s annoying. If they get rid of it when the Marine versions are stuck with it, that’s unfair....

Can't speak for everyone, but as an owner of a fellblade who hates the current price, I have no problem with this. Just because gw can't write good rules doesn't mean you should be punished for something that will only be used in casual games.

I wouldn't worry about the relic rule either. Chaos already ignores it, and it's been FAQED for loyalists to allow a single super heavy without paying the relic tax.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/25 00:54:35


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd say that's close. The only point I'd disagree on would be that the baneblade's and fellblade's main guns are equal. The baneblade has superior number of shots, strength, and damage compared to the he shells, so just flat out better there. Ae shells are better against t7 targets without invuls, but against t8 targets with invuls like most other super heavys the baneblade is better as it forces more saves increasing potential failed saves. So if you're considering the Sororitas tanks main guns as roughly equal to the fellblade's I'd cut some points. Though it may be better to err on the high side when theory crafting new units. You're call, again.


It actually washes out on average, because of the BS, and the only time the HE shells real weakness rears it's head the AP shells pick up the slack:
BB vs MEQ: 11+3.5 shots, 5.5+1.75 hits, 5+1.5 wounds, 4+1 kills.
FB vs MEQ: 7.5+3.5 shots, 5+2.5 hits, 4+2 wounds, 3+1 kills.

BB vs Light Vehicle: 5.5+1.75 hits, 4+1 wounds, 9+3.5~13 damage.
FB vs Light Vehicle: 5+2.5 hits, 4+2 wounds, 6+7~13 damage.

BB vs Heavy Vehicle: 5.5+1.75 hits, 4+1 wounds, 9+3.5~13 damage.
FB vs Heavy Vehicle: 1.3+2.5 hits, 1+2 wounds, 6+7~13 damage.


The baneblade has more dice, so it can spike higher and can get Catachan, but a fellblade can get re-rolls to be much more reliable and boosted AP if it needs it to really make all the shots it gets stick reliably.

Basically, on the outbound, they're really close to the same average numbers. Either way, there's no way that T9 Sv2+ is worth 250 points, Fellblade is seriously overcosted.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/25 02:22:17


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Basically, on the outbound, they're really close to the same average numbers. Either way, there's no way that T9 Sv2+ is worth 250 points, Fellblade is seriously overcosted.

Strongly agreed on that. But fellblade points isn't what this thread is for, though I'll happily return to that particular salt mine elsewhere if anyone wants.

In keeping with the marine derived super heavys theme have either of you considered the Spartan chassis? A bit smaller and with less wounds but with a less prohibitive cost (though ca2018 wasn't kind to them either, and of course ca2019 didn't fix the problem). Or if ig derived is more of the theme something based on the Macharius?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Basically, on the outbound, they're really close to the same average numbers. Either way, there's no way that T9 Sv2+ is worth 250 points, Fellblade is seriously overcosted.

Strongly agreed on that. But fellblade points isn't what this thread is for, though I'll happily return to that particular salt mine elsewhere if anyone wants.

In keeping with the marine derived super heavys theme have either of you considered the Spartan chassis? A bit smaller and with less wounds but with a less prohibitive cost (though ca2018 wasn't kind to them either, and of course ca2019 didn't fix the problem). Or if ig derived is more of the theme something based on the Macharius?


Spartan with heavy flamers or big pile of meltaguns sounds like a pretty cool super heavy assault carrier too. Maybe I'll put my mind to it in a bit.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




New Orleans

The T9 is really the hard bit to cut your teeth on. Most high end anti tank weaponry tops out at S8 or S9. Weapons like lascannons and multi meltas are very expensive and usually only have one shot. Suddenly those are relatively ineffective against their preffered target. A BS 3+ unit firing a lascannon does an average of less than 1 wound against a T9 2+ save unit. A multi melta in melta range does even worse. Assuming everything is average it would take 32 lascannon shots to bring a fellblade down to 1 wound. At the same time any unit that goes over points is almost too expensive to field.

Another option for the Lords of War slot would be to expand the living saint roster. Basically give something a transcendent ctan or greater demon but it’s powered by faith in the emperor.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The T9 is really the hard bit to cut your teeth on. Most high end anti tank weaponry tops out at S8 or S9. Weapons like lascannons and multi meltas are very expensive and usually only have one shot. Suddenly those are relatively ineffective against their preffered target. A BS 3+ unit firing a lascannon does an average of less than 1 wound against a T9 2+ save unit. A multi melta in melta range does even worse. Assuming everything is average it would take 32 lascannon shots to bring a fellblade down to 1 wound. At the same time any unit that goes over points is almost too expensive to field.

Another option for the Lords of War slot would be to expand the living saint roster. Basically give something a transcendent ctan or greater demon but it’s powered by faith in the emperor.


Honestly, I think there should be more T9 tanks. It's a tragedy that they chose to use T7 for light tanks and T8 for heavy tanks, as if the important relevance between light and heavy is vulnerability to small arms. There not being T9 tanks has really made all vehicles the same defensively, all AT weapons basically the same offensively, and also made it nearly completely worthless to be S10.

I have no problem with a BS3+ Lascannon bearer averaging less than one wound, A BS3+ Lascannon bearer is like 35 points compared to a several hundred point tank, and he's an infantry light AT weapon bearer.

Also, it's not actually that hard to handle, especially as the faction that most prolifically gets BS3+ Lascannon bearers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/25 08:21:19


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The T9 is really the hard bit to cut your teeth on. Most high end anti tank weaponry tops out at S8 or S9. Weapons like lascannons and multi meltas are very expensive and usually only have one shot. Suddenly those are relatively ineffective against their preffered target. A BS 3+ unit firing a lascannon does an average of less than 1 wound against a T9 2+ save unit. A multi melta in melta range does even worse. Assuming everything is average it would take 32 lascannon shots to bring a fellblade down to 1 wound. At the same time any unit that goes over points is almost too expensive to field.

Another option for the Lords of War slot would be to expand the living saint roster. Basically give something a transcendent ctan or greater demon but it’s powered by faith in the emperor.


Honestly, I think there should be more T9 tanks. It's a tragedy that they chose to use T7 for light tanks and T8 for heavy tanks, as if the important relevance between light and heavy is vulnerability to small arms. There not being T9 tanks has really made all vehicles the same defensively, all AT weapons basically the same offensively, and also made it nearly completely worthless to be S10.

I have no problem with a BS3+ Lascannon bearer averaging less than one wound, A BS3+ Lascannon bearer is like 35 points compared to a several hundred point tank, and he's an infantry light AT weapon bearer.

Also, it's not actually that hard to handle, especially as the faction that most prolifically gets BS3+ Lascannon bearers.

It's no worse than a knight rotating ion shields for a 4++, or just using its standard 5++.

Of course, if you slap "Supplication of Darkness" and "Miasma of Pestilence" on it.....
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




New Orleans

I think I was unclear with my point. I’m not saying we shouldn’t include T9 vehicles or that the fellblade shouldn't be one of them. Finding the balance for them is the issue. The points value is one of the critical things that separated the giant ork walkers from Imperial Knights. The fellblade would have to be cheaper but not to the point that it can it’s points equivalent in dedicated antitank weaponry. You also need to be able to counter it with units in the base game. Most resistance to forgeworld comes from the perception that it produces broken units that are put behind a paywall. Honestly messing with fellblade is the subject for another thread.

Also I wouldn’t disregard any man portable AT weapons. Tanks still face a lot of danger from ATGM’s like the TOW or the Javelin.

Ah let’s not get into what insanity you could reach with a fellblade. An Iron Hands one already sounds like a bad day and a -2 on one gives me flashbacks to people casting invisibility in titans .

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






I’ve been reading all the Fellblade and Baneblade fluff I could find, and the recurring them is Fellblades are surprisingly rare and precious, while Baneblades are in mass production and many Guard regiments have at least a few. That background, the screwy point costs for the Fellblade & family, and the disproportionate impact of going from T:8 to T:9 makes me want to stick with the Baneblade family as the basis for Sororitas super heavy tanks. (Now, 2,000-plus-point armored chapels on tracks might be different).
I’m going to take the great advice in this thread and write up revised versions of the Flameblade, Fire Sword, Storm Queen, and Grand Exorcist this weekend.
My main remaining question: does the Grand Exorcist’s main gun need upgrading? In my math hammer it actually outperforms the Battle Cannon against almost every class of target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Don’t feel too sorry for the Sisters. Their super heavies still outperforming their Guard counterparts with BS:3+ and a 6++ save, which is really handy against Titan-scale weapons with crazy AP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/25 19:01:31


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





evil_kiwi_60 wrote:I think I was unclear with my point. I’m not saying we shouldn’t include T9 vehicles or that the fellblade shouldn't be one of them. Finding the balance for them is the issue. The points value is one of the critical things that separated the giant ork walkers from Imperial Knights. The fellblade would have to be cheaper but not to the point that it can it’s points equivalent in dedicated antitank weaponry. You also need to be able to counter it with units in the base game. Most resistance to forgeworld comes from the perception that it produces broken units that are put behind a paywall. Honestly messing with fellblade is the subject for another thread.

Also I wouldn’t disregard any man portable AT weapons. Tanks still face a lot of danger from ATGM’s like the TOW or the Javelin.

Ah let’s not get into what insanity you could reach with a fellblade. An Iron Hands one already sounds like a bad day and a -2 on one gives me flashbacks to people casting invisibility in titans .


Depends on the tank, and guy with bazooka is still way less threatening that a tank's 120mm APFSDS. HEAT rockets impacting on the front or forward side of a modern M1, Leopard II, Challenger, Etc. will do very little, mostly cosmetic damage and damage to stuff outside the tank: AT rocket launchers have like 600mm-800mm RHAe penetration, an Abrams has like 1000mm-1300mm RHAe protection against it, and that's before it loads up with ERA, Slats, and potentially hard kill countermeasures.

SisterSydney wrote:I’ve been reading all the Fellblade and Baneblade fluff I could find, and the recurring them is Fellblades are surprisingly rare and precious, while Baneblades are in mass production and many Guard regiments have at least a few. That background, the screwy point costs for the Fellblade & family, and the disproportionate impact of going from T:8 to T:9 makes me want to stick with the Baneblade family as the basis for Sororitas super heavy tanks. (Now, 2,000-plus-point armored chapels on tracks might be different).
I’m going to take the great advice in this thread and write up revised versions of the Flameblade, Fire Sword, Storm Queen, and Grand Exorcist this weekend.
My main remaining question: does the Grand Exorcist’s main gun need upgrading? In my math hammer it actually outperforms the Battle Cannon against almost every class of target.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Don’t feel too sorry for the Sisters. Their super heavies still outperforming their Guard counterparts with BS:3+ and a 6++ save, which is really handy against Titan-scale weapons with crazy AP.



I feel like we should avoid duplicating guard stuff, it's never really been part of our arsenal. We do have outright duplicated marines stuff [Rets, BSS, Immolator, Rhino, Canoness] and some stuff that's modified marines stuff but still close [Sera, Exorcist, Pengine, etc.], so I think that's evidence that for both thematic consistency of the units [and from the fluff perspective that A: we like rare shinies, B: we're stupid rich enough to afford them, and C: we're supplied by the same foundaries supplying the Space Marines] we'd be better of with SM-esque lord of war.

Yeah, the Grand Exorcist weapon for your version is super uninspiring with 4d3 shots.

That's 8 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 10 damage to T8 vehicles, and you're underperforming against infantry too.
Baneblade Cannon+Demolisher [since you replaced the hull gun too] does: as decribed earlier like 13 damage to heavy vehicles.

Also, a super heavy tank's gun should be appreciably better than the version of it on a normal tank. +2 shots over an Exorcist isn't worth buying a huge super heavy tank hull and all the points associated with it for.

I guess I have a couple of more insights on them:
The Melta one feels really weird. It's obviously a Shadowsword except with a meltagun instead of a laser gun. I think that this doesn't fit the character of a meltagun or the character of the shadowsword, and a meltagun should be on an assault tank. As I reccommended, I would consolidate this with the one that's just a stormlord, and have it be a Sororitas Doomhammer instead of a Sororitas Awkward Shadowsword and Sororitas Awkward Stormlord. We also have no use for 40 transport.

The shadowsword is a long range destroyer, not a close assault tank, and I feel like the only option for use to be a not-shadowsword would also have to be a long range destroyer. So in that vein, I recommend the super-exorcist to be brought into line with the Shadowsword, since it's a long range antitank missile tank destroyer.


As a side note, I imagine that we actually just use the thunderhawk for landing, much like we also actually just use the Rhino, so:
Adepta Sororitas Thunderhawk Gunship:
Shield of Faith, Acts of Faith.
Is a Thunderhawk. Can take Thunderhawk options.

Also, I said to Gadzilla I'd write a Spartan Equivalent up, though unlike the other vehicles, I'm not sure they capture Sororitas flavor and it just comes across as a Spartan with Flamers. Then again, the Spartan is also just a fat Land Raider, so it's not particularly strong in the identity department anyway.
Scythian Assault Tank: This variant of the Spartan Assault Tank in Sororitas service fills the role of a very large Immolator, able to breach through fortification and trenches, fill the inside with fire, and then unload multiple squads of warriors under the cover of its guns to sweep and clear any survivors of the tank's onslaught.
M10", WS5+, BS3+, S8, T8, W20, Ld9, Sv2+
Twin Heavy Bolter
2x Multiple Immolation Flame Gun: Assault 4d6, Range 12", S5, AP-1, D1, This weapon automatically hits it's target
This vehicle may transport 25 ORDER INFANTRY or MINISTORIUM INFANTRY models, Jump Packs take up 2 spaces, etc., etc.

May exchange 2x Multiple Immolation Flame Gun for 2x Melta Destroyer Array: Heavy 2, S8, A-4, D2d6, Range 24", Roll 1 extra die and drop the lowest when determining damage when within half range.


What's with the name? The Scythians may have been the inspiration for the Amazons in Greek legends, and nonetheless were a largely gender-equal society of steppe horse people, so it seems like a good distaff counter naming to the Spartan.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/25 19:44:46


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






The main upgrade I gave the Grand Exorcist was range: You to from 48” to 12”-72.” Now, I’m probably overestimating the importance of range in, like, 90% of games, but my thought for its tactical role was long-range fire support, especially against other superheavies, while other Sororitas forces closed to 48” and lower.

Because it can fire either Exorcist Missiles or Conflagration Rockets, my Mathhammer spreadsheet showed it outperformed the Baneblade Cannon pretty consistently. (I’ll have to post the numbers once I get my laptop back from my son, who’s using it to watch the NFL Draft). I didn’t factor in the Demolisher Cannon because I replaced that with a multi-Melta, which is actually two more points.

As for using Guard equipment— it just doesn’t bother me at all. My 2015 fandex had the Sisters using a mix of Marine and Guard kit, all modified to their style of fighting. I think of the Sisters as an in-between force between “regular human hordes” and “super soldier elites.” Plus Guard Flyers are super ugly....

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
 
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