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Hey y'all. I play in a fairly large 40k club outside of boston. Really friendly, fairly casual atmosphere, and I've never before had any problems with anyone there. I am not a competitive player, and don't seek to gain unfair advantages with my lists.

Being an engineer, I've always loved the Adeptus Mechanicus in fluff terms and I was always sad that they weren't an army. So when I heard forgeworld had their Taghmata Omnissiah codex I was understandably pumped and have been trying to play it ever since I've gotten my hands on it.

Every time I look at a unit and it's upgrades in the dex, I try to assess its power by comparing it to units of similar points cost because I know FW can get a little silly. I've gone through and I have been identifying models which I think I can play without being cheesy. For instance:

Krios Venator. A bit more costly than a Predator with Lascannon load out, you exchange 1 TL 2 Normal Lascannons for 4 Normal Lascannons on the Krios, all firing from 1 gun. For 30 extra points that sounds reasonable to me. Etc.

I have less than a 50% win rate with my list. I usually do much better with my orks and Necrons. But never fail, any time I win and sometimes when I lose but kill models with something, I get "oh, well forgeworld is just all broken so it's not like you REALLY did that."

I always have my codex. I always go over what every unit costs and does pre game. Generally I'm not fielding anything more absurd than an army of IG conscripts and tanks backed up by Techpriests and servitors. What can I do to convince people I'm not trying to get free wins with a cheesy FW Dex?

Changing people's preconceptions is very hard, people do not like admitting they were wrong about something. Even if you lost 100% of the time due to a poor list people will still maintain the view that FW is overpowered.

If you really want to try then get them to play a game with a balanced list of your army, of course if it then wrecks face it could backfire spectacularly on you.

Education is probably your best bet. If you are going out of your way not to use the broken stuff, eventually people should come around as they get comfortable with the army. Even if there is over the top stuff in the book, as long as you play a sensible, fun army, there is no difference between you and the Eldar/Necron/FotM player. There is broken OTT stuff in every codex, but as long as you aren’t spamming it, you can still make lists that are fun at every level of play.

FW does not make you TFG. Your fellow gamers just need to trust that you are going to bring a fun army to play against. There is a lot of anti-FW bias out there. I haven’t read enough of their rules to tell if their ratio of wheat to chaff is better of worse then the “core” codexes. The fact that some units are very good gives people who want to break the system more options to bring the cheese. To most people, the balanced, reasonable FW units are a myth, because they only hear referenced the broken or experimental ones.

The more people like you, with a 50% win rate and a reasonable list, out there playing FW, the better a reputation it will have.

I use the Taghmata Omnissiah list and really the best way that I've shown it isn't OP is to take out my army.

My last 2000 point game I had 23 models. My entire 6000 point army is probably like 60 or 70 models total, lol.

The Mechanicum suffers from force density issues - they have incredibly tough, self-repairing war-engines that pack a huge punch, but they are very expensive and necessarily few in number.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I use the Taghmata Omnissiah list and really the best way that I've shown it isn't OP is to take out my army.

My last 2000 point game I had 23 models. My entire 6000 point army is probably like 60 or 70 models total, lol.

The Mechanicum suffers from force density issues - they have incredibly tough, self-repairing war-engines that pack a huge punch, but they are very expensive and necessarily few in number.

Yeah, I run a couple big blobs of Adsecularis supported by a Lach Auxilia unit basically just as meat shields just to offset the fact that my myrmidon Destructors sitting in an armored conveyor costs like 500 points.

I don't run too many of the crazy robotic units, though I desperately want a Thanatar, and I only have one Castellax with very basic armament, but it just doesn't seem to get through that when something obliterates an enemy unit with crazy firepower, that unit costs an ABSURD amount of points.

Let them see the rules.

Compare them to other stuff in codices. Especially stuff which is definitely considered broken.

Then finally insist they play at least a couple games against it.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I use the Taghmata Omnissiah list and really the best way that I've shown it isn't OP is to take out my army.

My last 2000 point game I had 23 models. My entire 6000 point army is probably like 60 or 70 models total, lol.

The Mechanicum suffers from force density issues - they have incredibly tough, self-repairing war-engines that pack a huge punch, but they are very expensive and necessarily few in number.

Yeah, I run a couple big blobs of Adsecularis supported by a Lach Auxilia unit basically just as meat shields just to offset the fact that my myrmidon Destructors sitting in an armored conveyor costs like 500 points.

I don't run too many of the crazy robotic units, though I desperately want a Thanatar, and I only have one Castellax with very basic armament, but it just doesn't seem to get through that when something obliterates an enemy unit with crazy firepower, that unit costs an ABSURD amount of points.

I have no adseculari, I went the other way. I have two Titans, a Thanatar, two castellaxi, eight Destructors, six Magi of varying types, six Enginseer Auxilia, one Reductor Auxilia, two Mechanicum Land Raiders, three Secutors, and one primaris lightning.

What kind of Titans?

Knights? Or actual Titan Titans?

Because to be honest Warhounds and Reavers are a little OTT for their point costs.

I use the Death Korps of Krieg Assault Brigade, and I've only ever won one game since it's come out. The perception that FW is OP is extremely antiquated; unlike GW prime, FW intentionally prices things on the higher side to avoid such accusations, and regularly builds negatives or downsides into lists to balance out what advantages it has.

Now, while my Death Korps never got a reaction because they're still, at their core, the IG codex, so they're familiar and people can see what they get for X points over the normal stuff and understand it isn't especially significant, with the Mechanicum, it's a genuinely different army, and I suspect people will warm to it once they've played it a few times and take a good look through the rules.

To be quite fair, I only know two people who think FW is OP; the local TFG who's adept at min-maxing the core codexes and list tailoring, so the unusual frustrates him, and another who's incredibly stuck in 4th edition, and still quotes rules from it to settle disputes.

I'd suggest make the effort to go over the army and it's quirks with your opponents in detail so they understand it, or make a point of fighting Eldar/Tau/Daemons and get completely wrecked like everyone else. That being said, one thing that will likely not help is GW continuing to nerf every codex since those broken three; most FW lists are quite balanced or slightly underpowered at the time of their inception, and the downward trend of codexes won't help their perception.

Is it possible you could bribe them? A nice juicy McDouble offered to me before a game would leave a smile on my face even if I was playing against Wave Serpents.

Try this approach:

You:"Hey Buddy!! Wanna play a game of 40k?"

Suspicious Opponent: "I dunno man...you kinda raped me last time... what you got?"

You: "Well, I got a juicy McDouble for you..................................................and 14 Wave Serpents and a Reaver Titan" (be sure to slip this last part in quick)

No Longer Suspicious Opponent: "Dude, you rock! Let's do it. I have 40 ork boyz and a trukk! This is gonna be the best game ever..."

 Grey Templar wrote:
What kind of Titans?

Knights? Or actual Titan Titans?

Because to be honest Warhounds and Reavers are a little OTT for their point costs.

Two warhounds. Every game I've played with the Mechanicum list has had a Mechanicum Warhound of some kind in it (if not both), and people are pretty much universally agreed that it is balanced. So I don't really know what you're on about.

Looks like the last FW thread got closed. Reckon it was a good thing because the horrible poo tossing and impoliteness started on page one nd only got worse the farther you waded in lol.

Simple fact is no one is going to change the mind of the "other side" once it is made up. It doesnt matter how you cherry pick the weak units to show how underpowered FW is or how you cherry pick the powerfull units to show how OP it is. People can be hard headed and stubborn. It is human nature.

I'd say dont waste your time and happyness argueing and just play with others of like mindedness. Less headaches, less hassle and you end up enjoying the games more because you have less friction. The ones you need to convince are those on the fence or willing to listen. Instead of cherry picking units, Id say cherry pick the people you want to play or convince. You'll be better off.

Doubt it will take long before this thread goes the way of all those who went before it. lol

Honestly, I don't know how you convince someone of obvious things like "the sky is blue" or "1+1=2". If someone is so stubborn that they reject the obvious truth then nothing you can say is going to change their mind.

You won't convince them. You're using units that are not really off the shelf kits. They cost a bit more than what other players have and it makes you look like an elitest. So already off the bat it's a preconceived feeling people get. Look for other people that have and play with FW stuff.

Example: I buy a Mercedes AMG C class and then I go around trying to race my friends driving around Stock Hondas and Toyota coupes. This doesn't come down to whether my car is faster or more powerful or OP...which it might be... this comes down to I spent more $. That bothers alot of people.

Just saying...

I think there's an easier way than giving each person in the store a lecture about it.

The best way for people to trust the unknown is to compare it to the known. In this case, you'd make a case that your FW stuff isn't OP if nothing in the rest of your list is either. Same thing with your demeanor. If you ask nicely, it implies you've brought a nice list. Demand their unconditional use and be a TFG, and people will assume the only reason you want to use FW units is to further being a TFG.

Set an example for what you like by how you act, and people will judge accordingly.

And if you cannot convince them you could just emigrate to here!
The people I know would absolutely LOVE to play against that army.

You could also always try an army switch, and then proceed to annihilate your own "broken FW army"
Given that you have less than 50% with your own army (that you probably know the ins and outs of, and use properly), its probably a bit on the weak side, and should be quite simple to beat when used by someone who isn't used to them.

At the very least you'll get a game with your dudes, even if they are on the other side.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You could also always try an army switch, and then proceed to annihilate your own "broken FW army"
Given that you have less than 50% with your own army (that you probably know the ins and outs of, and use properly), its probably a bit on the weak side, and should be quite simple to beat when used by someone who isn't used to them.

At the very least you'll get a game with your dudes, even if they are on the other side.

I've done this to prove those who claim close combat is dead that they are wrong. Tactics and strategy still win the day. This might get you the game but could backfire and them still claim it is a fluke (insert eyeroll smiley). Honestly still dont think it will change anyone's mind. When people WANT to believe something, they are going to.

Ask them why they're willing to play against Codex: Eldar but not Forgeworld.

Let say you actualy do convince someone to play with FW rules, how do you find a place to play ? Shops dont accept FW and tournaments don't let people use them either.

Makumba wrote:
Let say you actualy do convince someone to play with FW rules, how do you find a place to play ? Shops dont accept FW and tournaments don't let people use them either.

Maybe where you're from.

That's not a universal truth.

I'd say show them the rules to give them Idea of what you are actually playing.

I play Renegades and Heretics FW army lists and to be frank its a pretty chaotic (pun intended) army.

Fact is, I don't think anyone would have a problem playing against me just for the fact of how hard it is to play them.

I would recommend letting the person you are wanting to play against should be allowed to read the rules to give them a good idea how the FW army plays and what unique rules they have.

I'd imagine they are not likely gonna be use to playing FW armies and gaining some knowledge can help make it easier to convince to play against you.

Just don't think you can use a titan in your first game

 Vigilant wrote:
You won't convince them. You're using units that are not really off the shelf kits. They cost a bit more than what other players have and it makes you look like an elitest. So already off the bat it's a preconceived feeling people get. Look for other people that have and play with FW stuff.

Example: I buy a Mercedes AMG C class and then I go around trying to race my friends driving around Stock Hondas and Toyota coupes. This doesn't come down to whether my car is faster or more powerful or OP...which it might be... this comes down to I spent more $. That bothers alot of people.

Just saying...

I actually didn't pay a cent more than anyone else in this hobby. Just saying...

My Thralls/Adsecularis are custom made imperial guardsmen with bits I swapped from a buddy who plays DE and my own chaos marines. I also use them as cultists/traitor guard for my csm.

My techpriests are converted Dark Angels Veterans-green stuff cloth shoulder pads and carved up axes from my csm into gear axes.

My Magos is a converted techmarine, I used 3 of his arms to furnishu plastic techpriests

My Krios and Triaros I bought from eBay for the price of a Leman Russ and Land Raider from GW.

And my Myrmidons also ebay same price as the new IG ogryn box.

Castellax, eBay, price of the new SW dread.

And given the point cost of my army and the fact that a majority of my models can be played as IG I think I don't exactly count as a rich elitist bastard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:
Let say you actualy do convince someone to play with FW rules, how do you find a place to play ? Shops dont accept FW and tournaments don't let people use them either.

Helps if you custom build most of the FW stuff from models you buy at your friendly local shop. saves you the cost of a black market kidney and lets you play.

How much does the FW books cost. Last i saw, they were a little more expensive than the GW ones. Vigilant is correct on what he said. yes you can convert. I do it myself but those are the exceptions rather than the rule. Most FW stuff is sought after by those who use actual FW models.

Makumba is not ight though. MOST shops will let you use FW models in for fun games and I have yet to see one that would not let you use FW models that have exact GW versions (for example a thousand sons dreadnought or chapter specific land raider doors or even DKoK as gurdsmen)even in tournaments.

Makumba wrote:
Let say you actualy do convince someone to play with FW rules, how do you find a place to play ? Shops dont accept FW and tournaments don't let people use them either.

That's not true here. Here forge world is allowed just about everywhere. With some restrictions. And nobody is playing at GW stores anymore.

Play them. Play a FW Tac list against a Spamdar or Riptau list and they'll see that FW army lists are on par with GW's offerings if not slightly worse in terms of balance.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Let say you actualy do convince someone to play with FW rules, how do you find a place to play ? Shops dont accept FW and tournaments don't let people use them either.

That's not true here. Here forge world is allowed just about everywhere. With some restrictions. And nobody is playing at GW stores anymore.

There is one GW store in whole country and from what I know people can't realy play their either . If people play then they play at stores.

Makumba is not ight though. MOST shops will let you use FW models in for fun games and I have yet to see one that would not let you use FW models that have exact GW versions (for example a thousand sons dreadnought or chapter specific land raider doors or even DKoK as gurdsmen)even in tournaments.

Stores don't support models or systems they don't sell here. They won't care about doors as they don't sell separate LR doors and your probably going to buy the LR at the store. Same with dreads, they are bad unit you will not buy at all or in case of chaos will buy anyway with the starting pack.
But they won't like the fact that insead of buying a marine army your suddenly buying the army from FW, there is little difference between buying from FW and buying recasts for a store.

Helps if you custom build most of the FW stuff from models you buy at your friendly local shop. saves you the cost of a black market kidney and lets you play.

But the rule books will have to be bought outside of the store. We had stores not allow new codex in tournaments or leagues, because GW was being late with shipments or they had 2 books for 5 or 6 people wanting to play the army.

Makumba, that's great and all, but its irrelevant what the situation in your area is like for FW.

But for the OP, of which this thread is about, clearly FW is allowed.

The problem is about convincing people FW isn't OP.

 Vigilant wrote:
You won't convince them. You're using units that are not really off the shelf kits. They cost a bit more than what other players have and it makes you look like an elitest.

I love FW, but putting myself in the shoes of someone who has never bought or saw their kits, I know it's hard to believe that kits that cost so much could suck so bad, often. It's a tough sell and I think that's a fair rap. because, speaking for myself, I only get FW for the aesthetics, most all of the FW kits I have have rules that are either pure ass, or are really overpriced.

Makumba, your situation is a rare example and not the norm. Sorry that its the case for your local store.