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This is similar to Hollisman's thread but it's a separate enough issue that I think it warrants it's own discussion.

I don't have the direct rules in front of me, so I appologize for paraphrasing, but the rules state something to the effect of : if a skimmer is forced to end its movement on top of friendly or enemy models, move it the shortest distance possible.

The legitimate question, I think, is, when else would this happen outside of Deep Striking? Some would argue that Deep Striking is "placing" not actually "moving," but I think that's splitting hairs. In multiple junctures the rules state to treat units that have Deep Struck to "count as having moved" or "count as having moved Combat Speed" etc.

Personally, I think I would allow it. Just curious what the Dakka lawyers think.

This one's been argued back and forth for a while now. One side says the mishap rules should take precedence, the other that the skimmer rule should over-ride the mishap.

Whether or not there is any other situation where this would apply isn't really relevant to the question. Rules are sometimes just built in to 'future-proof' against unforeseen situations.

I honestly cannot actually name another skimmer that can deep strike so I mean I dunno how that has been argued back and forth.

I'd say it states clearly that if it ends its move on top of another model and Deep Strike actually requires you to place them, then yes it works.

Hollismason wrote:
I honestly cannot actually name another skimmer that can deep strike so I mean I dunno how that has been argued back and forth.

I'd say it states clearly that if it ends its move on top of another model and Deep Strike actually requires you to place them, then yes it works.

Except the deep strike scatter is not a move.

So it mishaps.

If it were a move normal infantry units would have to take a Difficult Terrain test when scattering across Difficult Terrain, they would have to take Dangerous Terrain tests when moving across Dangerous Terrain, and they would not be able to scatter through impassible terrain (Such as an impassible wall). But of course it is not a move so none of the previous situations are possible.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I honestly cannot actually name another skimmer that can deep strike so I mean I dunno how that has been argued back and forth.

I'd say it states clearly that if it ends its move on top of another model and Deep Strike actually requires you to place them, then yes it works.

Except the deep strike scatter is not a move.

So it mishaps.

If it were a move normal infantry units would have to take a Difficult Terrain test when scattering across Difficult Terrain, they would have to take Dangerous Terrain tests when moving across Dangerous Terrain, and they would not be able to scatter through impassible terrain (Such as an impassible wall). But of course it is not a move so none of the previous situations are possible.

All you have established is that the scatter, in and of itself, is not a move. That doesn't establish that Deep Striking onto the field isn't moving onto the field.

I think people are consistently misinterpreting what the scatter represents. It's not like the unit starts "here" and moves "there" via scatter. It's that their method of moving onto the field is inaccurate, and the scatter is a way to approximate that inaccuracy.

The rules pretty consistently treat Deep Striking as moving, as far as I can tell.

Hollismason wrote:
I honestly cannot actually name another skimmer that can deep strike so I mean I dunno how that has been argued back and forth.

Landspeeders were the go-to example in historic threads on the subject. There are also a few other ways (Eldar Corsairs for example).

Shadar - they only count as moving once they have finished the DS process. Until you complete the DS process you have not been forced to end your move, as your move has yet to occur.

Prior to all of that happening you Mishap.

What do you not understand in this sentence from the holy bible ?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

0. Not on the board.
1. Deep Strike.
2. No more movement.

morgoth wrote:
What do you not understand in this sentence from the holy bible ?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

0. Not on the board.
1. Deep Strike.
2. No more movement.

We understand it perfectly.

Once the deep striking unit has arrived, it can move no further.

But before it arrives (Like when you are figuring you scatter and placement), that is not a move.

morgoth wrote:
What do you not understand in this sentence from the holy bible ?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

0. Not on the board.
1. Deep Strike.
2. No more movement.

Until yo ucheck for mishap the unit has not arrived, meaning it has not moved. What abotu this do you not understand?

 DeathReaper wrote:

morgoth wrote:
What do you not understand in this sentence from the holy bible ?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

0. Not on the board.
1. Deep Strike.
2. No more movement.

We understand it perfectly.

Once the deep striking unit has arrived, it can move no further.

But before it arrives (Like when you are figuring you scatter and placement), that is not a move.

I don't think you get it.

Before it arrives, it's in reserves.
After scattering, it's on the table.
After that, no more movement.

There is no time slot to place your tank shock, deep striking eats your whole movement phase, except for transported units.

morgoth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

morgoth wrote:
What do you not understand in this sentence from the holy bible ?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

0. Not on the board.
1. Deep Strike.
2. No more movement.

We understand it perfectly.

Once the deep striking unit has arrived, it can move no further.

But before it arrives (Like when you are figuring you scatter and placement), that is not a move.

I don't think you get it.

Before it arrives, it's in reserves.
After scattering, it's on the table.
After that, no more movement.

There is no time slot to place your tank shock, deep striking eats your whole movement phase, except for transported units.

Part if 'arriving' is checking for mishap. Are you unable to place the model without being within 1" of an enemy unit? If so, then mishap. No movement related rule has time to trigger before you mishap.

Zimko wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

morgoth wrote:
What do you not understand in this sentence from the holy bible ?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

0. Not on the board.
1. Deep Strike.
2. No more movement.

We understand it perfectly.

Once the deep striking unit has arrived, it can move no further.

But before it arrives (Like when you are figuring you scatter and placement), that is not a move.

I don't think you get it.

Before it arrives, it's in reserves.
After scattering, it's on the table.
After that, no more movement.

There is no time slot to place your tank shock, deep striking eats your whole movement phase, except for transported units.

Part if 'arriving' is checking for mishap. Are you unable to place the model without being within 1" of an enemy unit? If so, then mishap. No movement related rule has time to trigger before you mishap.

And that's exactly my point.

morgoth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

morgoth wrote:
What do you not understand in this sentence from the holy bible ?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

0. Not on the board.
1. Deep Strike.
2. No more movement.

We understand it perfectly.

Once the deep striking unit has arrived, it can move no further.

But before it arrives (Like when you are figuring you scatter and placement), that is not a move.

I don't think you get it.

Before it arrives, it's in reserves.
After scattering, it's on the table.
After that, no more movement.

There is no time slot to place your tank shock, deep striking eats your whole movement phase, except for transported units.

THis thread has nothing to do with tank shock, whcih is possibly why noone understands your point.

This thread is about skimmers and their rule about being forced to end their move, and whether that saves them from DS mishap. If you could address that?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

THis thread has nothing to do with tank shock, whcih is possibly why noone understands your point.

This thread is about skimmers and their rule about being forced to end their move, and whether that saves them from DS mishap. If you could address that?

Somebody mentioned tank shock, just before I joined the discussion.

For the main point.

0. Unit is in Reserve.
1. Unit follows the Deep Strike rules.

First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.

2. Unit is on table

There is no mention on movement, therefore no movement rules could be applied, be it Skimmers' or others'.

DeathReaper,
Not being able to Move any further does not mean the Unit has Moved.
It simply means said Unit does not have access to the Movement Rules, as step one requires us to select a Unit which is capable of Moving.

Yes. Deepstriking isn't movement, as "movement" is clearly referenced in the rules.

Eh, if you dont move any further, you must have "moved" at some point - otherwise you would be prohibited from moving, not moving further.

It just doesnt matter, as you dont "move" until after deepstrike placement and scatter has finished, therefore always mishap first.

Nosferatu1001,
If we where grading Game Worship on the perfect use of syntax and grammar then maybe that inclusion of the word "further" would have been relevant. However, as we know this company has already played fast and loose with the English language in the past, the inclusion of this one word is not enough to dramatically change the possible meanings behind that single sentence. Given that it really is a Language Debate, which the forum has Tenets against as language is very flexible depending on location and personal interpretations, I'm going to counter that a restriction on Moving 'to a greater distance' can still be applied to a Model which has not Moved, as 1 Inch is a greater distance then 0 Inches.

From a Rule perspective:
There is no reason to have a Restriction preventing the Unit from 'moving further' if it had already Moved, as the default method to Move a Unit involves selecting a Unit that has yet to Move that turn.
There is no need to state that it counts as having Moved in the following Shooting phase, as it would have actually Moved instead.

So the question remains:
Has a Unit Moved if it does not utilize any of the Movement related Rules and the Rule does not specifically state that it is Movement?

Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

I think this is more important than even DS rules. This means skimmer cannot stay atop models in ANY situation. So when it ends its scatter over any model, it will mishap. DS skimmers don't possess any kind of scatter reduce rule (like Drop Pods), so they suffer mishap.

Half of this question is easily answered: Skimmers definitely mishap when Deep Striking onto enemy models.

Deep Strike Mishap: If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed...on top or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.

Skimmers: If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it.

The minimum distance will be one where there's a microscopically small distance between the enemy model and the skimmer, so that it is no longer over it. The skimmer will certainly still be within 1".

Please continue your discussion about Deep Striking onto friendly models though.

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
Not being able to Move any further does not mean the Unit has Moved.

I am confused, where did I state that it was a move?

Deathreaper,
Apologize, too used to arguments using the word 'Move further' as evidence that the Unit Moved during the process and it led me to drawing a conclusion where one was not present.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

I think this is more important than even DS rules. This means skimmer cannot stay atop models in ANY situation. So when it ends its scatter over any model, it will mishap. DS skimmers don't possess any kind of scatter reduce rule (like Drop Pods), so they suffer mishap.

It's not a "scatter reduce rule", however the line in question is this one from the BRB under Skimmers

BRB wrote:"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

And the debate over DS/Scatter/Et al. being movement (and therefore triggering this line) or not movement (meaning the skimmer will mishap).
I am in the camp that movement hasn't happened prior to checking for mishap and so Skimmers will mishap.

Deep Strike is a USR, and it's my understanding that USRs trump the regular rules for movement, shooting, etc, in the BRB.

Therefore, even if arriving via Deep Stike is considered movement, the Deep Strike Mishap rules superseded the rules for Skimmers ending their move over other models.

As others have pointed out:
The Skimmer will still be within 1 inch and trigger a Mishap regardless of this debate, the Rule does not state to move the skimmer an inch away but it move it only far enough that no Model is underneath.

Hunam0001,
Can you quote me a Rule which state Special Rules trump Advanced Rules?

I bring it up because I know no such Rule exists, the lack of a proper Rule hierarchy is second only to the lack of a Rule Glossary explaining basic Terminology when it comes to discussing the many Formatting problems Game Workshop has. What little we have been given in relation to a hierarchy is along the lines of Basic < Advanced < Codex and as you can easily see there is huge number of problems with such a basic hierarchy. For Example: An Advanced Rule found in the Unit Type section of the Book is in conflict with an Advanced Rule found in the Special Rule section of the book. In these situations the game literally breaks as obeying one of the Rules will have to be broken and we do not have permission to break any of them.

A follow up question:
Where does a Rule found on a Dataslate fall on this hierarchy?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The minimum distance will be one where there's a microscopically small distance between the enemy model and the skimmer, so that it is no longer over it. The skimmer will certainly still be within 1".

In which case the rule is useless... because you can't finish your movement within 1" of an enemy model unless you are charging.

That's not only going to cause mishaps when deep striking, but also apply during any other movement.


We've had the same argument over the years about the Drop Pod's inertial guidance. Because you can't wind up within 1" of an enemy model, when calculating how far you need to move to avoid that enemy model you need to include that 1" bubble.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
Somebody mentioned tank shock, just before I joined the discussion..

They really didn't. You're confusing two different threads.

'Reduce till Mishap is avoided' and 'Reduce till no Models are underneath' are two completely different things, which is why Drop Pods can take that inch into consideration as stopping within triggers the Mishap.

Deep striking Vehicles count as moving at combat speed. Counts as and the actual thing are for rules purposes considered the same thing.

If it said for example; Deep Striking vehicles counts as eggplants and you had flavor text that said the best way to serve eggplants was to stuff them with tempura battered shrimp a little bit of oyster sauce and roast them if you had a rule to select eggplants in your army you could stuff your Deep Striking vehicle (even though it is not a actual eggplant )with breaded shrimp and cook it because it counts as a eggplant.

Deepstriking vehicles are not eggplants but sometimes for rules purposes we consider them eggplants.

If I could ask the posters a question? Do YOU use deepstriking skimmers?

Personally, I would be fine with allowing skimmers to function as Drop Pods in this instance. I play Tau. I use skimmers. I do NOT use deepstriking skimmers. (the skimmers I use do not have access to deepstriking, not 'I do not use this legal tactic.' I wish it was otherwise - I wish Devilfish, Skyrays, and Hammerheads could deep strike.)

Anyone else?