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2014/10/19 16:42:28
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
Hollismason wrote: people literally think that you take a model put it on top of another model and then in order to end it's move you leave it there, then end its move then move the model back.
Like if I was playing Insaniak, I'd be able to place a tank on top of his models physically leave it there then move it back.
Neither of those rules allow that and that is not how they function.
The skimmer rule does not care about the mishap. It only cares if something would happen.The mishap rule doesn't care about the skimmer rule.
Both of these rules function independently of each other.
Nobody actually thinks this happens. You're ignoring rules and you're not addressing the actual concern here. Deep Strike never, ever forces a model to end a Deep Strike on top of another model. The Skimmer rule requires the move be ended.
Answer this question and you'll see how you're incorrect.
1. I follow the deep strike process up until scatter.
2. I roll scatter and find the final placement position is above an enemy model.
Do the Deep Strike rules FORCE the model to end its move there? Seriously, you can't address this question.
To answer, of course not. The Deep Strike rules actually require you to roll on the mishap table to see what happens. You are unable to demonstrate that fully following the Deep Strike rules results in a situation where a model is forced to move on top of another model.
I assume you have some sort of mental block and just can't understand that the mishap process is a part of the Deep Strike process.
You keep asking for a step by step. Here goes.
1. I roll for reserves as normal and get to bring in a Raider.
2. I physically set the Raider down on the table where I would like it to go.
3. I roll for scatter to determine the final position of the Raider. This happens to be on top of an enemy unit. I do not physically move the model at this point. There is no need to because...
4. As I'm still completing a Deep Strike process, I realize that the model can't be DEPLOYED because it would be on top of an enemy unit, so I roll on the Mishap Table.
5a. I get a 1 or 2. Woe is me, my model is destroyed.
5b. I get a 3 or 4. Woe is me, my model is returned to reserves.
5c. I get a 5 or 6. Woe is me, my model is placed instead by my opponent. He can't willingly place the model on top of another model, so it must be placed in a legal position.
6. My Deep Strike process is now complete.
You'll note that the Skimmer rule never comes into play because Deep Strike never ends with a model on top of another model. This is not an issue of us not understanding the Skimmer rule. This is an issue of you not following the Deep Strike rule completely. You're effectively following it until the scatter stage, at which point you are given two options... roll on the mishap table or evoke the Skimmer rule. The Skimmer rule requires a forced end of movement, or in other words, that you have no other option but to move the Skimmer onto another model. This requirement fails in this case as you have the alternate option of rolling mishap.
And seriously, you can win this debate right now by demonstrating one full Deep Strike process that ends with a model being forced to deploy on top of another model. If it happens with Skimmers as you say, it should be able to happen with something like a Blood Angels Land Raider. If a Skimmer can end a Deep Strike over a model, then using your own reasonable person standard, it would be reasonable to assume that a Land Raider can also. Show me how this happens.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 16:47:32
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Yes they would force the model to end it's move on top of another model, Mishap and Skimmer both happen. Again you're stating that mishap occurs before. It doesn't they both check at the same time.
What's so hard to understand? That's the whole point. You're argument for whatever reason is based on nothing but opinion that it happens before the skimmer rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 16:45:58
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 16:45:46
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
Hollismason wrote: This is what people are stating when they say that the skimmer rule happens after movement has ended.
Well that's not what people (at least not me) are saying.
I'm not saying you physically place the model over other models... that would be stupid.
Deepstrike scattering on to another model is not "ending it's move" over those models. You never place it over those models. You roll on the mishap table as soon as you see that it would scatter on to other models, it's never placed there, it's never "forced to end its move" over other models.
"forced to end its move" does not mean the rule activates after all other things, it means if there is some sequence of events that leads to the model ending its move over other models and that cannot be avoid (forced) then the skimmer rule kicks in. It doesn't mean you physically place the skimmer and then decide it's over models, it's as soon as you identify a situation which would force it to end its move over other models... deep striking is not that situation.
The skimmer rule, as it is written, is for some hypothetical situation where you go to move your skimmer and for some reason it stops over another unit, you think "oh, well, I have no other means to move, so therefore I am forced to end my move over other models, no wait, skimmer rules tells me if I am forced to end my move over other models I just shift it, problem solved". Deep striking is not that situation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 16:50:35
2014/10/19 16:47:34
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
You absolutely go to place the model. That's literally what it is saying.
You can't place it there because the skimmer rule is in effect and that would be ending it's move over a model.
You can't place it there because the mishap rule doesn't allow you to.
Again, there's no way to argue that either of these happen before the other but one has to.
The skimmer rule doesn't care if the move is ended.
This is just basic sentence structure
Skimmer rule
If X , Do Y
Mishap
If X , Do Y
They're the same functionally in the sequence of events. You also physically go to place the model with mishap btw , the same way you would go to check for the skimmer rule.
Like seriously you physically put the model on the board, then scatter to determine it's final positon then go to move the model where it would be. If you can't do this it would mishap, it would also trigger the skimmer rule at the same time as the mishap.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 16:51:43
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 16:51:42
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
Hollismason wrote: Yes they would force the model to end it's move on top of another model, Mishap and Skimmer both happen. Again you're stating that mishap occurs before. It doesn't they both check at the same time.
What's so hard to understand? That's the whole point. You're argument for whatever reason is based on nothing but opinion that it happens before the skimmer rule.
Ok, fine. Devil's Advocate. They happen at the same time. You are given Option A to prevent deploying on top of another model and you are given Option B to prevent deploying on top of another model. The existence of Option B would preclude you from being FORCED to choose Option A.
If you say that they both happen and trigger at the exact same time and that the final placement is the trigger, then by your own logic wouldn't you use the Skimmer Rule to move the Skimmer and then roll for a mishap? After all, both rules triggered off ending the scatter over enemy models.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say they happen at the same time without resolving both.
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It doesn't care if the move is ended... but it DOES care if the move would be forced to end... which deep striking does not do so the rule never comes in to effect.
2014/10/19 16:52:25
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
It doesn't care if the move is ended... but it DOES care if the move would be forced to end... which deep striking does not do so the rule never comes in to effect.
It absolutely is forcing it to end it's move. Hence the words FINAL.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 16:53:12
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 16:54:48
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
It doesn't care if the move is ended... but it DOES care if the move would be forced to end... which deep striking does not do so the rule never comes in to effect.
It absolutely is forcing it to end it's move. Hence the words FINAL.
Again, remove the Skimmer rule. Show me a Deep Strike scenario with literally ANY MODEL that ends the Deep Strike on top of another model. Show me a scenario where Deep Strike FORCES you to deploy on top of another model.
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Hollismason wrote: Yes they would force the model to end it's move on top of another model, Mishap and Skimmer both happen. Again you're stating that mishap occurs before. It doesn't they both check at the same time.
What's so hard to understand? That's the whole point. You're argument for whatever reason is based on nothing but opinion that it happens before the skimmer rule.
Ok, fine. Devil's Advocate. They happen at the same time. You are given Option A to prevent deploying on top of another model and you are given Option B to prevent deploying on top of another model. The existence of Option B would preclude you from being FORCED to choose Option A.
If you say that they both happen and trigger at the exact same time and that the final placement is the trigger, then by your own logic wouldn't you use the Skimmer Rule to move the Skimmer and then roll for a mishap? After all, both rules triggered off ending the scatter over enemy models.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say they happen at the same time without resolving both.
You get to pick the sequencing or order when a situation occurs and it's your turn. You'd pick the skimmer rule, it'd have to be placed 1 inch away from an enemy model or the minimum for a friendly.
The mishap would not occur.
Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to mishap a skimmer, a skimmer can mishap , just in the specific instance where it'd end its movement over another model it would not.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 16:56:40
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
OH! Dire Deep Strike Gods! Are you forcing me to end this Deep Strike over an enemy model?!?!?
Oh, dear little model, a thousand times no. I am asking you to roll on the mishap table, but I would never force you to end a Deep Strike over an enemy model. People put a lot of time an effort into these models and we want to keep them seperated.
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It doesn't care if the move is ended... but it DOES care if the move would be forced to end... which deep striking does not do so the rule never comes in to effect.
It absolutely is forcing it to end it's move. Hence the words FINAL.
Again, remove the Skimmer rule. Show me a Deep Strike scenario with literally ANY MODEL that ends the Deep Strike on top of another model. Show me a scenario where Deep Strike FORCES you to deploy on top of another model.
I don't have a goldfish, oh I though we were talking about gak that don't matter.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 16:57:45
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
Hollismason wrote: Yes they would force the model to end it's move on top of another model, Mishap and Skimmer both happen. Again you're stating that mishap occurs before. It doesn't they both check at the same time.
What's so hard to understand? That's the whole point. You're argument for whatever reason is based on nothing but opinion that it happens before the skimmer rule.
Ok, fine. Devil's Advocate. They happen at the same time. You are given Option A to prevent deploying on top of another model and you are given Option B to prevent deploying on top of another model. The existence of Option B would preclude you from being FORCED to choose Option A.
If you say that they both happen and trigger at the exact same time and that the final placement is the trigger, then by your own logic wouldn't you use the Skimmer Rule to move the Skimmer and then roll for a mishap? After all, both rules triggered off ending the scatter over enemy models.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say they happen at the same time without resolving both.
You get to pick the sequencing or order when a situation occurs and it's your turn. You'd pick the skimmer rule, it'd have to be placed 1 inch away from an enemy model or the minimum for a friendly.
The mishap would not occur.
Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to mishap a skimmer, a skimmer can mishap , just in the specific instance where it'd end its movement over another model it would not.
Show me a scenario where literally any non Skimmer ends a Deep Strike on top of another model. If Deep Strike forces a Deep Striking unit to end its move on top of another model, this should be a trivial request.
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Kriswall wrote: Rolls Scatter. (moves on top of enemy model)
OH! Dire Deep Strike Gods! Are you forcing me to end this Deep Strike over an enemy model?!?!?
Oh, dear little model, a thousand times no. I am asking you to roll on the mishap table, but I would never force you to end a Deep Strike over an enemy model. People put a lot of time an effort into these models and we want to keep them seperated.
Yeah the mishap and skimmer rule both stop that from happening.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 16:58:41
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
It doesn't care if the move is ended... but it DOES care if the move would be forced to end... which deep striking does not do so the rule never comes in to effect.
It absolutely is forcing it to end it's move. Hence the words FINAL.
Again, remove the Skimmer rule. Show me a Deep Strike scenario with literally ANY MODEL that ends the Deep Strike on top of another model. Show me a scenario where Deep Strike FORCES you to deploy on top of another model.
I don't have a goldfish, oh I though we were talking about gak that don't matter.
We're talking about the fact that the Deep Strike rule never forces you to end a Deep Strike over another model. The fact that you can't provide a single example seriously damages your position.
Kriswall wrote: Rolls Scatter. (moves on top of enemy model)
OH! Dire Deep Strike Gods! Are you forcing me to end this Deep Strike over an enemy model?!?!?
Oh, dear little model, a thousand times no. I am asking you to roll on the mishap table, but I would never force you to end a Deep Strike over an enemy model. People put a lot of time an effort into these models and we want to keep them seperated.
Yeah the mishap and skimmer rule both stop that from happening.
There is no mishap rule. There is a Deep Strike rule. Is your contention that you only have to follow half of the Deep Strike rule?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's also noteworthy that basically noone is agreeing with you. That should tell you something.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 16:59:54
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Hollismason wrote: Yes they would force the model to end it's move on top of another model, Mishap and Skimmer both happen. Again you're stating that mishap occurs before. It doesn't they both check at the same time.
What's so hard to understand? That's the whole point. You're argument for whatever reason is based on nothing but opinion that it happens before the skimmer rule.
Ok, fine. Devil's Advocate. They happen at the same time. You are given Option A to prevent deploying on top of another model and you are given Option B to prevent deploying on top of another model. The existence of Option B would preclude you from being FORCED to choose Option A.
If you say that they both happen and trigger at the exact same time and that the final placement is the trigger, then by your own logic wouldn't you use the Skimmer Rule to move the Skimmer and then roll for a mishap? After all, both rules triggered off ending the scatter over enemy models.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say they happen at the same time without resolving both.
You get to pick the sequencing or order when a situation occurs and it's your turn. You'd pick the skimmer rule, it'd have to be placed 1 inch away from an enemy model or the minimum for a friendly.
The mishap would not occur.
Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to mishap a skimmer, a skimmer can mishap , just in the specific instance where it'd end its movement over another model it would not.
Show me a scenario where literally any non Skimmer ends a Deep Strike on top of another model. If Deep Strike forces a Deep Striking unit to end its move on top of another model, this should be a trivial request.
Here is the exact answer you are seeking
*
* Get it, because he's a Straw Man (also I'm totally Dorothy)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:04:20
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 17:04:47
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
Hollismason wrote: Yes they would force the model to end it's move on top of another model, Mishap and Skimmer both happen. Again you're stating that mishap occurs before. It doesn't they both check at the same time.
What's so hard to understand? That's the whole point. You're argument for whatever reason is based on nothing but opinion that it happens before the skimmer rule.
Ok, fine. Devil's Advocate. They happen at the same time. You are given Option A to prevent deploying on top of another model and you are given Option B to prevent deploying on top of another model. The existence of Option B would preclude you from being FORCED to choose Option A.
If you say that they both happen and trigger at the exact same time and that the final placement is the trigger, then by your own logic wouldn't you use the Skimmer Rule to move the Skimmer and then roll for a mishap? After all, both rules triggered off ending the scatter over enemy models.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say they happen at the same time without resolving both.
You get to pick the sequencing or order when a situation occurs and it's your turn. You'd pick the skimmer rule, it'd have to be placed 1 inch away from an enemy model or the minimum for a friendly.
The mishap would not occur.
Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to mishap a skimmer, a skimmer can mishap , just in the specific instance where it'd end its movement over another model it would not.
Show me a scenario where literally any non Skimmer ends a Deep Strike on top of another model. If Deep Strike forces a Deep Striking unit to end its move on top of another model, this should be a trivial request.
Asking for a single example of something you contend happens but that everyone else says can never happen as a result of using the Deep Strike rule is a Straw Man argument?
I'm asking for one simple example that would prove your point for you. I'm giving you your path to victory. Show me that in the absence of any other rules that Deep Strike can force a model to deploy on top of another model. This is the trigger for the Skimmer rule, so for you to be correct, there has to be an example.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's also specifically not a Straw Man, because if you can't prove that Deep Strike would FORCE a vehicle to deploy on top of another model, then you by default can't demonstrate that Deep Strike would force a Skimmer to deploy on top of another model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:11:35
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Kriswall, your argument assumes that mishap checks before the skimmer rule. At the exact point where the skimmer scatters over enemy models, it has no other option. It is only after the mishap check that it is given permission to mishap. Because the mishap and skimmer rules have the SAME TRIGGER, they trigger at the SAME TIME. If two rules trigger at the same time, the controlling player decides the order, and untill we choose to check for mishap, the skimmer is indeed forced to move there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:33:41
4000 points: Craftworld Mymeara
2014/10/19 17:39:43
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
extremefreak17 wrote: Kriswall, your argument assumes that mishap checks before the skimmer rule. At the exact point where the skimmer scatters over enemy models, it has no other option. It is only after the mishap check that it is given permission to mishap. Because the mishap and skimmer rules have the SAME TRIGGER, they trigger at the SAME TIME. If two rules trigger at the same time, the controlling player decides the order, and untill we choose to check for mishap, the skimmer is indeed forced to move there.
Incorrect. The model does have other options as provided in the rules for Deep Strike. They are to be detroyed, to be delayed or to be misplaced.
If a Skimmer can be forced to end a Deep Strike over another model, then a non Skimmer should also be able to end a Deep Strike over another model.
You either have to provide that example, provide rules backup allowing you to ignore the mishap portion of the Deep Strike rule or provide rules backup stating that the scatter is movement and not the overall Deep Strike process.
Neither of these three things has been provided.
At the end of the day, nobody has been able to give one single example of a Deep Strike process ending with a model over another model.
Deep Strike can end in the following ways...
1. With the model where you want it.
2. With the model close to where you want it, but still in a "safe" spot.
3. With the model destroyed.
4. With the model back in reserves.
5. With the model where your opponent wants it.
Show me that there is a number 6 option "with the model over another model" and I'll immediately believe you. My stance is that you can't demonstrate this and that this lack proves that Deep Strike never forces a model to end the Deep Strike on top of another model.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:41:30
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Hollismason wrote: Yes they would force the model to end it's move on top of another model, Mishap and Skimmer both happen. Again you're stating that mishap occurs before. It doesn't they both check at the same time.
What's so hard to understand? That's the whole point. You're argument for whatever reason is based on nothing but opinion that it happens before the skimmer rule.
Ok, fine. Devil's Advocate. They happen at the same time. You are given Option A to prevent deploying on top of another model and you are given Option B to prevent deploying on top of another model. The existence of Option B would preclude you from being FORCED to choose Option A.
If you say that they both happen and trigger at the exact same time and that the final placement is the trigger, then by your own logic wouldn't you use the Skimmer Rule to move the Skimmer and then roll for a mishap? After all, both rules triggered off ending the scatter over enemy models.
You can't have it both ways.
You can't say they happen at the same time without resolving both.
You get to pick the sequencing or order when a situation occurs and it's your turn. You'd pick the skimmer rule, it'd have to be placed 1 inch away from an enemy model or the minimum for a friendly.
The mishap would not occur.
Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to mishap a skimmer, a skimmer can mishap , just in the specific instance where it'd end its movement over another model it would not.
Show me a scenario where literally any non Skimmer ends a Deep Strike on top of another model. If Deep Strike forces a Deep Striking unit to end its move on top of another model, this should be a trivial request.
Asking for a single example of something you contend happens but that everyone else says can never happen as a result of using the Deep Strike rule is a Straw Man argument?
I'm asking for one simple example that would prove your point for you. I'm giving you your path to victory. Show me that in the absence of any other rules that Deep Strike can force a model to deploy on top of another model. This is the trigger for the Skimmer rule, so for you to be correct, there has to be an example.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's also specifically not a Straw Man, because if you can't prove that Deep Strike would FORCE a vehicle to deploy on top of another model, then you by default can't demonstrate that Deep Strike would force a Skimmer to deploy on top of another model.
You have consistently stated that I state this, when in fact I've only ever stated that this would only ever occur with a vehicle that has a skimmer rule.
That's the literal definition of strawman, making argument that I stated something when I did not.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 17:43:31
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
You are evading the issue. You can't demonstrate that Deep Strike ever results in a model being forced (i.e. having no other options but) to end it's Deep Strike on top of another model.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Two models Deep Strike in exactly the same fashion, get exactly the same scatter results, both scatter on top of an enemy unit.
For you to be correct, the Skimmer would slide off and the non-Skimmer would have to physically be placed on top of the other models. After all, if the Skimmer would be forced then the non-Skimmer would also be forced and have no other option.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If the non-Skimmer isn't actually forced to end the move on another model, then the Skimmer isn't either.
Just show me ONE example of a non-Skimmer ending a deep strike over another model.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:45:55
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The skimmer wouldn't have to because of the Skimmer rule, the other model does not have the skimmer rule.
What's so hard to understand about that?
I mean seriously, that's the definition of a straw man, I'm not answering it because we know what happens to vehicles that do not have the skimmer rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:48:48
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 17:48:21
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
extremefreak17 wrote: Kriswall, your argument assumes that mishap checks before the skimmer rule. At the exact point where the skimmer scatters over enemy models, it has no other option. It is only after the mishap check that it is given permission to mishap. Because the mishap and skimmer rules have the SAME TRIGGER, they trigger at the SAME TIME. If two rules trigger at the same time, the controlling player decides the order, and untill we choose to check for mishap, the skimmer is indeed forced to move there.
The don't have the same trigger at all. Deep Strike isn't movement, and doesn't happen in the movement phase. Once Deep Strike triggers it must be completed all of the way through mishap before returning to the normal flow of the game, which is only important for special abilities and psychic powers that allow deep striking in any other phase than "The Start of Your Turn".
2014/10/19 17:54:16
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
Reported for personal attacks. Thanks for the implication that my mind and body are broken.
Now, since I assume you are unable to provide any rules evidence that Deep Strike can force any model to deploy on top of another model, your position is untenable.
I understand that you REALLY, REALLY want the scatter portion, which is used to determine the final incoming position of a model, to be the end of the Deep Strike process. It isn't. There is no evidence that it is. Mishap is a part of the Deep Strike process and until the Mishap has occurred, the Deep Strike hasn't ended. Skimmer sliding triggers off the end of movement.
extremefreak17 wrote: Kriswall, your argument assumes that mishap checks before the skimmer rule. At the exact point where the skimmer scatters over enemy models, it has no other option. It is only after the mishap check that it is given permission to mishap. Because the mishap and skimmer rules have the SAME TRIGGER, they trigger at the SAME TIME. If two rules trigger at the same time, the controlling player decides the order, and untill we choose to check for mishap, the skimmer is indeed forced to move there.
The don't have the same trigger at all. Deep Strike isn't movement, and doesn't happen in the movement phase. Once Deep Strike triggers it must be completed all of the way through mishap before returning to the normal flow of the game, which is only important for special abilities and psychic powers that allow deep striking in any other phase than "The Start of Your Turn".
Holly doesn't understand that the Deep Strike rule has to fully execute and that Deep Strike never concludes with a model over another model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:56:26
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Kriswall wrote: Reported for personal attacks. Thanks for the implication that my mind and body are broken.
Now, since I assume you are unable to provide any rules evidence that Deep Strike can force any model to deploy on top of another model, your position is untenable.
I understand that you REALLY, REALLY want the scatter portion, which is used to determine the final incoming position of a model, to be the end of the Deep Strike process. It isn't. There is no evidence that it is. Mishap is a part of the Deep Strike process and until the Mishap has occurred, the Deep Strike hasn't ended. Skimmer sliding triggers off the end of movement.
Deep Strike does not have to end for the Skimmer rule to occur. If this were true the situation you state does not happen, placing a model ontop of another model could occur.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: Reported for personal attacks. Thanks for the implication that my mind and body are broken.
Now, since I assume you are unable to provide any rules evidence that Deep Strike can force any model to deploy on top of another model, your position is untenable.
I understand that you REALLY, REALLY want the scatter portion, which is used to determine the final incoming position of a model, to be the end of the Deep Strike process. It isn't. There is no evidence that it is. Mishap is a part of the Deep Strike process and until the Mishap has occurred, the Deep Strike hasn't ended. Skimmer sliding triggers off the end of movement.
extremefreak17 wrote: Kriswall, your argument assumes that mishap checks before the skimmer rule. At the exact point where the skimmer scatters over enemy models, it has no other option. It is only after the mishap check that it is given permission to mishap. Because the mishap and skimmer rules have the SAME TRIGGER, they trigger at the SAME TIME. If two rules trigger at the same time, the controlling player decides the order, and untill we choose to check for mishap, the skimmer is indeed forced to move there.
The don't have the same trigger at all. Deep Strike isn't movement, and doesn't happen in the movement phase. Once Deep Strike triggers it must be completed all of the way through mishap before returning to the normal flow of the game, which is only important for special abilities and psychic powers that allow deep striking in any other phase than "The Start of Your Turn".
Holly doesn't understand that the Deep Strike rule has to fully execute and that Deep Strike never concludes with a model over another model.
Deep strike has occured once you go to place the model for it's final position.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 17:58:48
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
2014/10/19 18:01:22
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
Kriswall wrote: Reported for personal attacks. Thanks for the implication that my mind and body are broken.
Now, since I assume you are unable to provide any rules evidence that Deep Strike can force any model to deploy on top of another model, your position is untenable.
I understand that you REALLY, REALLY want the scatter portion, which is used to determine the final incoming position of a model, to be the end of the Deep Strike process. It isn't. There is no evidence that it is. Mishap is a part of the Deep Strike process and until the Mishap has occurred, the Deep Strike hasn't ended. Skimmer sliding triggers off the end of movement.
Deep Strike does not have to end for the Skimmer rule to occur. If this were true the situation you state does not happen, placing a model ontop of another model could occur.
You obviously haven't read the rules. Deep Strike never asks you to put a model on top of another model. It INSTEAD asks you to roll a mishap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: Reported for personal attacks. Thanks for the implication that my mind and body are broken.
Now, since I assume you are unable to provide any rules evidence that Deep Strike can force any model to deploy on top of another model, your position is untenable.
I understand that you REALLY, REALLY want the scatter portion, which is used to determine the final incoming position of a model, to be the end of the Deep Strike process. It isn't. There is no evidence that it is. Mishap is a part of the Deep Strike process and until the Mishap has occurred, the Deep Strike hasn't ended. Skimmer sliding triggers off the end of movement.
extremefreak17 wrote: Kriswall, your argument assumes that mishap checks before the skimmer rule. At the exact point where the skimmer scatters over enemy models, it has no other option. It is only after the mishap check that it is given permission to mishap. Because the mishap and skimmer rules have the SAME TRIGGER, they trigger at the SAME TIME. If two rules trigger at the same time, the controlling player decides the order, and untill we choose to check for mishap, the skimmer is indeed forced to move there.
The don't have the same trigger at all. Deep Strike isn't movement, and doesn't happen in the movement phase. Once Deep Strike triggers it must be completed all of the way through mishap before returning to the normal flow of the game, which is only important for special abilities and psychic powers that allow deep striking in any other phase than "The Start of Your Turn".
Holly doesn't understand that the Deep Strike rule has to fully execute and that Deep Strike never concludes with a model over another model.
Deep strike has occured once you go to place the model for it's final position. This is when the skimmer rule and mishap occur.
So wait, if Deep Strike is completed when I roll for the final position, how does a mishap occur? Deep Strike is complete, so per your logic, there would be no need to finish reading and following the rule. Seriously, in your mind, does a mishap occur during a Deep Strike or after? If after, which rule do I need to follow for mishap? I might have an out of date rulebook. Mishap is covered under Deep Strike in my copy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I also reported you for posting copywritten materials.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 18:02:10
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Incorrect.The model does have other options as provided in the rules for Deep Strike. They are to be detroyed, to be delayed or to be misplaced.
This only comes into effect AFTER we check for mishap. If there is no mishap, there is no other option. Because we can choose to ennact the skimmer rule BEFORE the mishap, which is brfore we have any other options, then it works just fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I also reported you for posting copywritten materials.
Seriously? What the feth is this? What does this accomplish? Please take this gak to another website please.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 18:17:01
4000 points: Craftworld Mymeara
2014/10/19 18:24:43
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
This thread has gotten way too personal. Please only attack the argument, not the poster. Further posts that are not dealing only with the rules in question will result in warnings and/or suspensions if appropriate.
Please also only hit the yellow triangle and do not respond to attacks in-thread (even to say that you've hit the yellow triangle, if possible, as it can further derail the thread).
Thanks, and any questions, just PM me or any other moderator.
2014/10/19 18:26:36
Subject: Do Skimmers mishap if they Deep Strike onto enemy/friendly models?
extremefreak17 wrote: Kriswall, your argument assumes that mishap checks before the skimmer rule. At the exact point where the skimmer scatters over enemy models, it has no other option. It is only after the mishap check that it is given permission to mishap. Because the mishap and skimmer rules have the SAME TRIGGER, they trigger at the SAME TIME. If two rules trigger at the same time, the controlling player decides the order, and untill we choose to check for mishap, the skimmer is indeed forced to move there.
The don't have the same trigger at all. Deep Strike isn't movement, and doesn't happen in the movement phase. Once Deep Strike triggers it must be completed all of the way through mishap before returning to the normal flow of the game, which is only important for special abilities and psychic powers that allow deep striking in any other phase than "The Start of Your Turn".
RED: Deep Strike is movement , and this has been shown in this thread many times already. I invite you to read the whole thing from page 1. Hell, I'll even give you several rules quotes if you want, just let me know.
ORANGE: This is just flat out wrong, and has zero rules support. If this were true, a Drop Pod's Internal Guidence rule would only come into play AFTER mishap. Please dont make things up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 18:27:59
4000 points: Craftworld Mymeara 