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So after Fulgrim lops Ferrus' head off, he gets possessed by a daemon, but I can't seem to understand what happened after. Did Fulgrim boot the daemon out himself, or did they somehow merge?

Fulgrim booted the daemon out himself, but continued to pretend that he didn't, just to trick Lucius. Yes, Fulgrim did that for the lulz.

(ooh, it won't allow me to say "t-e-h lulz")

So there was no real point to it?

 ChazSexington wrote:
So there was no real point to it?

In the novel Angel Exterminatus, Fulgrim explains that it was this experience that led him to chase apotheosis and to ascend to Daemon Princehood.

No info on whether he consulted Magnus before that.

Yeah, it's one of the sillier parts of the whole Heresy for me.

"I'm possessed by a Daemon and trapped in a painting!"

"Now I'm not but faking it!"

"It's totally me again guys!"

I prefer to think that Fulgrim is still possessed by the Daemon and isn't in control of what he's been doing, despite what we've read (daemons aren't the most trustworthy bunch after all). Much more tragic to be trapped in his own mind/body, unable to do anything about the Slaaneshi excesses the daemon drives them to do.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
So there was no real point to it?

In the novel Angel Exterminatus, Fulgrim explains that it was this experience that led him to chase apotheosis and to ascend to Daemon Princehood.

No info on whether he consulted Magnus before that.

Aye, but it seems so contrived. He has a moment of clarity and realises the consequences of his actions, then decides to go with it anyway.

 Coldstream wrote:
Yeah, it's one of the sillier parts of the whole Heresy for me.

"I'm possessed by a Daemon and trapped in a painting!"

"Now I'm not but faking it!"

"It's totally me again guys!"

I prefer to think that Fulgrim is still possessed by the Daemon and isn't in control of what he's been doing, despite what we've read (daemons aren't the most trustworthy bunch after all). Much more tragic to be trapped in his own mind/body, unable to do anything about the Slaaneshi excesses the daemon drives them to do.

Aye, that's what I think would make the most sense. It would make it a lot more tragic as well!

McNeil can't do subtilty.

I prefer to believe that the daemon, in Fulgrim's body, did what it does best. It tempts. It offered Fulgrim the power to take back his body, to trap the daemon in the painting. And all he'd have to do was give himself to Slaanesh. Because as much as Slaanesh loves tricking people out of their bodies, a willing convert is always far better.

Yeh it could always be the deamon is the one who told lucius that it was fulgrim. All we have is 'fulgrims' word and lucius' gut that fulgrim is back in control of his body.

jareddm wrote:
McNeil can't do subtilty.

I prefer to believe that the daemon, in Fulgrim's body, did what it does best. It tempts. It offered Fulgrim the power to take back his body, to trap the daemon in the painting. And all he'd have to do was give himself to Slaanesh. Because as much as Slaanesh loves tricking people out of their bodies, a willing convert is always far better.

But that would make for one sad Daemon.

jareddm wrote:
McNeil can't do subtilty.

I prefer to believe that the daemon, in Fulgrim's body, did what it does best. It tempts. It offered Fulgrim the power to take back his body, to trap the daemon in the painting. And all he'd have to do was give himself to Slaanesh. Because as much as Slaanesh loves tricking people out of their bodies, a willing convert is always far better.

Is that actually what happened? I thought he did it himself?

Maximus Bitch wrote:But that would make for one sad Daemon.

Why? What's a few centuries trapped in a painting for an immortal daemon? Especially in exchange for bringing one of the Emperor's own sons willingly to the daemon's master.

ChazSexington wrote:Is that actually what happened? I thought he did it himself?

No, it's just my own theory. But the idea of him doing it himself, only to realize, "Hey, I like this!" is not something I find appealing.

The whole situation is a ham fisted response to the original problem of the daemon in the blade possessing a Primarch. Having the daemon be in control of one's body removes the whole idea of the Primarchs' fall being due to their own choices and personalities.

The original Realms of Chaos books describes how the Chaos gods prize their mortal champions because they are new souls that have willingly chosen to merge with their god, whereas Daemons are created by the god from their own pool of energy and never had a choice in their allegiance or nature.

The situation is similar to how Nurgle's Rot is described as affecting an infected victim. It does not actually kill and convert the victim's soul into a Plaguebearer until the victim surrenders to Nurgle willingly (which so far everyone has always done eventually as the Rot keeps tormenting them until they do). So again there is that theme of an element of free will being present.

The original story was tragic, with Fulgrim being slowly corrupted by the Daemon within the Blade of Laer without realising. This lead him to do battle with his beloved brother, killing him. In that last moment, when he realised in horror how far he had fallen and what he had done, his possession was complete. The Daemon took over completely, and Fulgrim would remain trapped in his own mind.

The new version is that Fulgrim beheaded his brother and then out-evil'd the Daemon, making the entire thing pointless and turning Fulgrim into just another moustache-twiddling Chaos character who is just plain evil and that's it. It makes him the only Traitor Primarch whose fall isn't based in some deep personal issues (most of which are the Emperor's fault). Fulgrim is just evil, in spite of the previous lore (which still exists) about his close relationship with Ferrus Manus and his adoration of the Emperor.

Iracundus wrote:
The whole situation is a ham fisted response to the original problem of the daemon in the blade possessing a Primarch. Having the daemon be in control of one's body removes the whole idea of the Primarchs' fall being due to their own choices and personalities.

Except even in Collected Visions, which all the old folks seem to regard as the "true" Horus Heresy story, Fulgrim's body was possessed by a daemon. There was no mention of the Blade of Laer, but it was certainly not just his own personality that led to his fall.

jareddm wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The whole situation is a ham fisted response to the original problem of the daemon in the blade possessing a Primarch. Having the daemon be in control of one's body removes the whole idea of the Primarchs' fall being due to their own choices and personalities.

Except even in Collected Visions, which all the old folks seem to regard as the "true" Horus Heresy story, Fulgrim's body was possessed by a daemon. There was no mention of the Blade of Laer, but it was certainly not just his own personality that led to his fall.

I am talking even older sources:

During a parley the Legion's Primarch, Fulgrim, and his highest ranking officers were corrupted by the decadent pastimes that Horus and his Chaos-worshippers offered. Drugged, pleasured beyond endurance, and finally broken, they agreed to aid Horus. The rot quickly spread to the whole Legion, and the Emperor's Children willingly embraced Chaos in all its indolent depravity. The Imperial CUlt was quickly supplanted by the more gratifying worship of Slaanesh.

p. 15-16, 2nd edition Chaos Codex

Fulgrim fell willingly, no mention of daemonic possession at all. That bit was added later, and it was a bad addition because it then removes the whole free will aspect from Fulgrim's choice. If Fulgrim is just a possessed meat puppet, then it does not mean he has fallen spiritually since theologically speaking at least in Abrahamic religions it is by free willed choices for evil that the soul is stained.

All the Daemon Primarchs became so through conscious dedication to their god, even if originally they were pressured into a do or die choice such as with Mortarion or Magnus. They still ultimately chose to live and to swear themselves to their new patron. If Fulgrim were just a daemon possessed, then he would not and could not have ascended to become a Daemon Primarch, which we know he did since he was an available Greater Daemon choice in the old Epic Space Marine game.

Iracundus wrote:

Fulgrim fell willingly, no mention of daemonic possession at all. That bit was added later, and it was a bad addition because it then removes the whole free will aspect from Fulgrim's choice. If Fulgrim is just a possessed meat puppet, then it does not mean he has fallen spiritually since theologically speaking at least in Abrahamic religions it is by free willed choices for evil that the soul is stained.

All the Daemon Primarchs became so through conscious dedication to their god, even if originally they were pressured into a do or die choice such as with Mortarion or Magnus. They still ultimately chose to live and to swear themselves to their new patron. If Fulgrim were just a daemon possessed, then he would not and could not have ascended to become a Daemon Primarch, which we know he did since he was an available Greater Daemon choice in the old Epic Space Marine game.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, I feel that the introduction of the Possession in Visions and the Laeran Blade from the series has made Fulgrims fall less important and tragic. Initially it was a true corruption of the soul, his beliefs and ideals turned against all that he stood for and held dear.

IA Emperors Children: The Council of Charon, formed after the Horus Heresy to discover the causes of the traitor Primarch's betrayals, concluded that Fulgrim's respect for Horus allowed the Warmaster to influence him, weakening him enough for Chaos to lure him away from the Emperor. Slowly, as he and Horus talked, Fulgrim's loyalty to Terra crumbled, replaced by a burning desire to destroy the false Emperor, whose rule held back Humanity from the perfection Fulgrim had always believed it capable of.

It is mentioned in the latest Codex that Fulgrim was beyond reproach, what better delight, or more meaningful, to turn someone so dedicated to the Emperor. Having Fulgrims progression to Traitor because of a Daemon cheapens it. It is slightly redeemed as Fulgrim casts out the Daemon and still seeks ascension, but it's not as dramatic, because it wasn't solely on Fulgrims actions.

I've not particularly liked his ascension either. From the IA article I always felt that it was his, and the Emperor's Children's, actions on Terra that made Slaanesh grant him Princehood.

Having a Daemon become a Daemonprince didn't sit well with me either. It's through deeds and acts that a mortal ascends and gets gifted. A Daemon, and I guess in the case of the Laeran blade, a Greater Daemon, already has many of the boons.

You can probably tell that I like the stuff before Visions

One critique of the original depiction of Fulgrim's fall was that it seemed a cheap way for a Primarch to turn (the equivalent of succumbing to a bout of sex and drugs). However we must remember that the Space Marines had been raised to fight endlessly, and never really given the chance to truly relax and indulge in everyday pleasures. For warriors kept restrained under such strict monastic and military regulation to be given sudden license to do as they please would be a very sharp contrast, and they might have decided fighting for their own pleasure was preferable to discipline and hardship endured for the sake of normal humans or an apparent distant uncaring ruler.

Alternatively, if one goes by the whole PG-13 angle of GW focusing on the drive for "perfection", more could have been spent on Fulgrim perhaps chafing at the Emperor's restrictions. Fulgrim could have gradually grown to resent what he felt were pointless restrictions that constrained humanity from achieving its potential (all that forbidden technology, forbidden knowledge, etc...), and this would have opened the way for Slaanesh to entice him. After all, one of Slaanesh's tenets is that no moral restrictions should hold one back from experiencing and doing anything.

Does it?

"Drugged, pleasured beyond endurance, and finally broken" doesn't necessarily seem to be a great experience for them. We don't know how long the Parley went or for or how they were subjected to the experiences.

They seem to have been forced into the decision much like Mortarion was, but still having to make it for themselves. What choice afterwards would they have had but to side with Horus.

I think it would have worked better if there had been no daemon sword and no possession. Omit that and have Horus work his magic, using his bearing and his knowledge ofFulgrims nature, to turn him against the Emperor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Does it?

"Drugged, pleasured beyond endurance, and finally broken" doesn't necessarily seem to be a great experience for them. We don't know how long the Parley went or for or how they were subjected to the experiences.

They seem to have been forced into the decision much like Mortarion was, but still having to make it for themselves. What choice afterwards would they have had but to side with Horus.

I think it would have worked better if there had been no daemon sword and no possession. Omit that and have Horus work his magic, using his bearing and his knowledge ofFulgrims nature, to turn him against the Emperor.

All the Primarchs that were forced into these situations already had grievances against the Emperor (except arguably Fulgrim), and that would have weakened any incentive for them to choose the death option over submitting to the god. Magnus had the banning of sorcery, Angron the way in which he was saved while his gladiator comrades were left to die, Mortarion how he had to be saved by the Emperor and being robbed of his revenge against his inhuman adoptive father.

Yes, I just chose Mortarion as a more fitting an example. Made to make a choice that was no real choice at all. That's a reason why he sided with Horus, not necessarily why he accepted Nurgle as his patron. He made that choice once the Destroyer had been released on his fleet.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Yes, I just chose Mortarion as a more fitting an example. Made to make a choice that was no real choice at all. That's a reason why he sided with Horus, not necessarily why he accepted Nurgle as his patron. He made that choice once the Destroyer had been released on his fleet.

One thing they didn't really explore is why Mortarion saw himself as a harbinger of a new age of justice by siding with Horus. Unless it really just stems from him feeling robbed of his due, and perhaps feeling Marines in general were being robbed of their reward since they had forged the Imperium.

That said, Mortarion did have the option of killing himself and his Legion as an alternative to siding with Nurgle. That is the exact choice victims afflicted with Nurgle's Rot have. They can seek death or kill themselves, or they can resist the Rot. The problem is the Rot never goes away and does not kill them until they have surrendered to it willingly. Mortarion and the Death Guard's will to live was strong and they were willing to accept life at any price instead of a clean death.

Iracundus wrote:


One thing they didn't really explore is why Mortarion saw himself as a harbinger of a new age of justice by siding with Horus. Unless it really just stems from him feeling robbed of his due, and perhaps feeling Marines in general were being robbed of their reward since they had forged the Imperium.

No, as really, he's just replacing one for the other. I would have thought that Mortarion could at least see the difference between the Emperors Imperium and what one led by Horus would be like. He's seen the likes of how Fulgrim is and what Horus new empire would hold. He can't think that it would be any better seeing what he has seen. If he truly felt that the Emperor was just another Tyrant, why side with Horus. But in part, you get back to his resentment of having to be rescued.

Iracundus wrote:
That said, Mortarion did have the option of killing himself and his Legion as an alternative to siding with Nurgle. That is the exact choice victims afflicted with Nurgle's Rot have. They can seek death or kill themselves, or they can resist the Rot. The problem is the Rot never goes away and does not kill them until they have surrendered to it willingly. Mortarion and the Death Guard's will to live was strong and they were willing to accept life at any price instead of a clean death.

The IA article suggests that they didn't have a choice

For Mortarion and the Space Marines of the Death Guard there was nothing so terrifying as the plague which made their legendary resilience meaningless. These were the warriors who the Imperium had sent to conquer worlds no other man could set foot upon, much less fight on and win. Pestilence, contagion, toxin and pollution; there was no environment so hostile which Mortarion and the Death Guard could not overcome, until the plague which raced through their fleet. It roiled in their guts, bloating and distending their once superhuman bodies, transforming them into horrible, pustulent grotesques. They were made corrupt within and sickening to behold without and they grew sicker and sicker, yet could not die, their own constitution becoming their worst enemy. What they endured was unimaginable yet none suffered more than Mortarion. For the Primarch, it was as though he were upon the mountaintop of Barbarus once more, surrendering to the poison, without the mercy of unconsciousness to claim him or the Emperor to come to his salvation.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Iracundus wrote:


One thing they didn't really explore is why Mortarion saw himself as a harbinger of a new age of justice by siding with Horus. Unless it really just stems from him feeling robbed of his due, and perhaps feeling Marines in general were being robbed of their reward since they had forged the Imperium.

No, as really, he's just replacing one for the other. I would have thought that Mortarion could at least see the difference between the Emperors Imperium and what one led by Horus would be like. He's seen the likes of how Fulgrim is and what Horus new empire would hold. He can't think that it would be any better seeing what he has seen. If he truly felt that the Emperor was just another Tyrant, why side with Horus. But in part, you get back to his resentment of having to be rescued.

The society Mortarion eventually recreated is a dark mirror of the world he grew up on, only with him and his followers as the overlords on the mountains. The Imperium the Emperor was creating was increasingly starting to use normal humans as the administrators and decision makers, not the Marines. As I have said in another thread, the theme of the Heresy is that of the Christian War in Heaven, with Horus filling the role of Lucifer. Ultimately it all comes down to superior angelic beings (the Marines) refusing to submit and serve what they see as lesser creatures (normal humans). The Imperium Horus appeared to be aiming towards was one with the Primarchs and Marines as a ruling class. This is exactly the sort of society the Chaos Marines created in the Eye of Terror afterwards. Perhaps Mortarion felt that justice would only be served if those that fought to found the Imperium also were its ruling class.

For Mortarion and the Space Marines of the Death Guard there was nothing so terrifying as the plague which made their legendary resilience meaningless. These were the warriors who the Imperium had sent to conquer worlds no other man could set foot upon, much less fight on and win. Pestilence, contagion, toxin and pollution; there was no environment so hostile which Mortarion and the Death Guard could not overcome, until the plague which raced through their fleet. It roiled in their guts, bloating and distending their once superhuman bodies, transforming them into horrible, pustulent grotesques. They were made corrupt within and sickening to behold without and they grew sicker and sicker, yet could not die, their own constitution becoming their worst enemy. What they endured was unimaginable yet none suffered more than Mortarion. For the Primarch, it was as though he were upon the mountaintop of Barbarus once more, surrendering to the poison, without the mercy of unconsciousness to claim him or the Emperor to come to his salvation.

Perhaps it was also preventing them from doing so. Nurgle doesn't want to lose his new playthings to a bolt round.

Far as I know, GW never stated why they did a 180 on Fulgrim's possession.

However, I, like many others, believed it was because of the free will aspect.

Yes, the 180 is stupid and mustache twirling. However, IMHO, even stupider was a daemon-possessed Fulgrim ascending to daemon princehood (That makes no sense whatsoever even by chaos standards considering that the friggin' DEFINITION of a daemon prince is a mortal soul given daemonhood. "Yea, I'm a daemon, and now I'm a daemon prince!"

It also removed the free will aspect, which was just demeaning in a world where most of the fallen primarchs were supposed to have REASONS to turn to Chaos. Angron because of what Emps did, Morty to save himself, Perterabo because of the way he was treated, Lorgar cause religion, Magnus to save what was left of his legion and because he was betrayed, etc etc. Fulgrim meanwhile had no complexities... he was just possessed. It's one thing for some random character to get possessed (Happens all the time in fluff) but Fulgrim is Slaanesh's champion, not just for Slaaneshi actions but also for Slaanesh's CAUSE. Pretty demeaning when your greatest champion didn't even choose you of their own free will.

A lot of the old fluff at least tried to show justifications for why the traitors would CHOOSE Chaos, Slaanesh included. Old fluff was that during the Siege of Terra, Slaaneshi showed the Emperor's Children visions of a world where there was no evil because everyone LIKED all that hedonistic stuff, for example.

So basically, I guess the fluff went from "free will choice" to "lol possessed" to "lol not possessed anymore but mustache twirling evil". Or... maybe not on the mustache twirling thing. Yes, the current Fulgrim is now a hedonistic psychopath, but, assuming he's telling the truth, he does honestly think he's working towards the greater evolution of mankind as well as a greater ascension of perfection for everyone. Which is pretty much what a truly visionary non-2Dimensional Slaaneshi villian that actually cares about a Slaaneshi world should be. Which beats "I turned to Slaanesh because a daemon possessed me!", IMHO, though the execution did leave much to be desired.

Oh I agree it's simply a muddled mess thanks to GW not really knowing what they wanted to do with Fulgrim (or the failure of writers to handle it well) and you're right the free will aspect is important to add to the tragedy of it all.

I think the daemon possession/free will paradox could have been rectified after the beheading of Ferrus Manus with the daemon letting Fulgrim have his moment of clarity, and, in horror, Fulgrim willingly allowing/wanting the daemon back in charge to try to hide from what had just happened. However, Slaanesh loves a good torturing, so the daemon leaves Fulgrim aware but totally out of control of things in the corner of his mind.

The daemon goes on to greater and greater excesses, taunting the real Fulgrim, eventually ascending to daemon princedom, thus ensuring Fulgrim's functional immortality and utter inability to escape his torment.

I'd think Slaanesh would love it.

Another fine example of the HH books ruining another neat character!

I wish they would have left him a daemon(IE not put the demon in the painting). I know it's considered to be semi-ambiguous , but Fulgrim could be a better plot device as a known possessed Primarch.

Post Davin, Horus doesn't second guess anything. Which seemed to be something he did quite often. He was thoughtful. Full on possessed Fulgrim could have given us some re-thinking points, or frankly what I don't know why we aren't seeing, is Horus making plans POST taking the throne. The warmaster would be already working on that.

This series, is a tease overall. There's some books that are real fun reads, and thousand sons VS prospero burns is a nice pair.

It's not cohesive enough, and it doesn't throw in enough unreliable narrators.

Sorry, I liked the series 7-8 books in, but since then it's been really bumpy at best I think. That being said; there are some characters I have developed literary love for. Loken, Garro, Kharn, Sevatar. I love how , wild and unpredictable Curze is.

They need to refocus back to the original writing crew and focus the story to at least the outside of the Sol system(the fight there), with some 1k sons and EC in the warp. Also Caliban needs work.

I hope for HH and GW sake the daemon really still is in fulgrim and him saying that he escaped the painting is a fat troll.... otherwise its not cool... as previous posters have said it becomes bumpy, inconsistent with free will and the personalities/attributes of fulgrim.

I agree whole heartily that they should of only had 4 or 5 writers for the whole series and they need to edit and check the plot/characters much more vigorously so as to be consistent with old fluff. You can tell I am biased towards old fluff already hehehe

In really really old fluff, Fulgrim wasn't possessed by a daemon, if I recall correctly (at least, the Index Astartes article doesn't mention it)

Was that daemon possession thing first started in the BL book, "Fulgrim"? If so, it basically means they're backpedalling on a retcon they introduced themselves in the first place which is pretty funny.