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so theoretically speaking, if there were sons left from the fleets that were sent away from prospero, what do you think their attitude towards psychics and the emperor would be now?
would they shun all psychic power seeing it as their downfall or would they still use them freely thinking that they had the power to control them?

would they look at the emperor and say he did what he had to and remain loyal trying to redeem themselves in the emperors eyes or hate mankind for what they did and just be another random chaos warband?

how about magnus? would they still revere him as he was or see him as the deamon that he is now?

I have an affinity for the sons and want to come up with some background for a force of them that were one of the fleets sent away by magnus. I know that there is also the theory of the blood ravens being sons but I'd like to stay away from them.

any thoughts?

They're called the Blood Ravens.

Well, so far, we know of two loyalist 2nd founding chapters that seem narrativey implied to come from traitor primarchs (Silver Skulls and Blood Ravens), and at least one latter founding chapter that is actually suspected in-universe of it (Sons of Antaeus)

In the case of the latter, it's explicitly stated that "detractors" "point out their similarities to the Death Guard". So it's safe to assume that coming from a traitor primarch would be a HUGE insult to one's honor, as only "detractors" would hint at such a thing.

Another possible case, the Red Scorpions (whom it's no where stated in the fluff and instead the fans saw the similiarities) seem similar to the Emperor's Children, and they are caonically known to be VERY secretive about their gene seed.

In the case of the Blood Ravens, their history of their primarch was erased. When a Blood Raven discovered and learned something that may have been the truth about their past, he destroyed it so no one else would find it.

And in the case of the Silver Skulls (who were likely from Barbas Dantioch of the Iron Warriors), they're a second founding chapter that, even in old school fluff, has always explicitly CLAIMED to be successors of the Ultramarines. (they're still buddy buddy with the Ultramarines, but that makes lots of sense when you look at how much Barbas and his fellows became buddy buddy with them and practically was accepted as one of them... possibly literally eventually)



TL;DR: It seems a safe assumption that any loyalist chapter that comes from a traitor primarch would try to cover it up because it's insulting. I personally doubt in the present day a chapter would be declared traitor just because their gene seed primarch came to light but the shame would be so great that who knows what would happen.

There's a lot of room to work with a (potentially) Loyalist Thousand Sons residual chapter.

They could easily be embittered towards the Emperor/Imperium, for shunning what made the 1k Sons special and unique and bearing a grudge or outright hatred for the Space Wolves for the destruction of Prospero. Could be a renegade chapter, still opposed to Chaos but too bitter at the Imperium to serve them directly and out to foil the Space Wolves when possible.

Or, a 1k Sons chapter that knew that the Space Wolves were tricked into destroying Prospero by Horus, thus leading to the final downfall of Magnus, might well be burning with hatred for Tzeentch and Chaos sorcerers and out for revenge. Maybe closely allied with elements of the Ordo Hereticus. dedicated to hunting out Tzeentchian treachery wherever it may occur.

You might even consider a division within the Chapter itself on the use of psychic powers? One branch utterly opposed to it, another embracing it as a tool to use against Chaos, mirroring the original division of the Emperor and the 1k Sons. Maybe have the chapter sitting in delicate balance between the two sides, requiring every other company to be pro- or anti- psychic powers. Heck, it's your fluff...give them Two Chapter Masters, one embracing each side of the argument and create some special third position to serve as a balance/tie-breaker between the two.

Chapter could be called the Guardians of the Scales (one of the roles of Anubis in Ancient Egyptian Mythology keeping a link to the 1K Sons Egyptian Motiff) or the Emperor's Scales or something.

Just brainstorming here.

Since neither Magnus nor the Emperor were ever able to fully stop the Flesh Change, how does a Loyalist Chapter descend from the Thousand Sons without mutating horribly?

Tzeentch wanted it to stop, and so it did. Just like it started back up again at the moment of Magnus's downfall.

 Psienesis wrote:
Since neither Magnus nor the Emperor were ever able to fully stop the Flesh Change, how does a Loyalist Chapter descend from the Thousand Sons without mutating horribly?

Blood Ravens seem to have managed well enough, presuming they actually are a Successor Chapter.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Well, so far, we know of two loyalist 2nd founding chapters that seem narrativey implied to come from traitor primarchs (Silver Skulls and Blood Ravens), and at least one latter founding chapter that is actually suspected in-universe of it (Sons of Antaeus).

AFAIK, the Silver Skulls are likely UM Successors according to their apothecaries. Though I wouldn't be surprised if they genuinely are Iron Warriors; it seems loads of the stayed Loyal.

 Psienesis wrote:
Since neither Magnus nor the Emperor were ever able to fully stop the Flesh Change, how does a Loyalist Chapter descend from the Thousand Sons without mutating horribly?

Could be Tzeentch has plans for the chapter and so he's removed the affliction so the chapter may better serve his purposes (unwittingly).

Awhile back I had an idea for a chapter created from genetic samples stored on Terra that originally belonged to the Emperors Children. The idea was that the chapter was created as an experiment to see if the gene seed was viable for use though only a few individuals would know the truth namely the High Lords of Terra and a few high ranking members of the Inquisition.

Every effort would be taken to prevent the chapters fall, as far as the chapter is concerned apart of their chapter turned to chaos and the ensuing civil war resulted in only roughly 2 companies surviving. As penance the survivors had their chapters "history" wiped from their mind including the identity of their Primarch. The chapter was then assigned a penitent crusade under the joint supervision of a loyalist chapter and an Inquisitorial task force until such time as they had proven their loyalty and would be granted guardianship of a world and permission to rebuild the chapters strength.

In reality only 200 marines would be created to ensure that if they did turn it wouldn't be an entire chapter. The wiping of the chapters non existant "memory" would help prevent them from turning, the crusade would not only be a trial to test the chapters loyalty but to test their combat prowess. Even the "sins" of the chapters past would put a zealous need to prove their loyalty.

I think the Silver Skulls are made from Ultramarines gene seed but Barbas may have been their first chapter master and helped to shape the chapter which is why they are so similar to the Iron Warriors.

Blood Ravens seem to have managed well enough, presuming they actually are a Successor Chapter.

Mighty large presumption, and pretty strong evidence that they aren't.

 Psienesis wrote:

Blood Ravens seem to have managed well enough, presuming they actually are a Successor Chapter.

Mighty large presumption, and pretty strong evidence that they aren't.

Weird, I've seen pretty strong evidence that they are. But then again, there are already enough topics on the matter.

Could there be, sure, I guess.

Would there be, no, I don't think so.

I think it would create to much of a risk for the stability of the Astartes if there was an unknown number of Chapters formed from traitor Geneseed. Imagine what would happen if the Blood Raves were found out to be Thousand Sons and how the Space Wolves would react. They still hold to the honour duels with the Dark Angels, I am sure they still hold their grudge against the Thousand Sons, even if the Blood Ravens have proven to be loyal.

If it is true, the 21st is the likely candidate from hence they would come from, but whether that was because actual traitor Geneseed was used, or through the machinations of Fabius we don't know. I would say the latter.

Using traitor geneseed is too much of a risk. After the Heresy it was discovered that the traitors gene seed had flaws, which led to them falling. It couldn't be used in case the flaws occurred again.

It's locked away in stasis for a reason.

I don't get how you guys are so certain the Silver Skulls are IW descendants, Apart from having a skull on their shoulderpad their combat doctrine is all wrong, You presume too much.

When making/pondering a loyalist Chapter descended from traitors, you have to make allowances for someone outside the Chapter knowing the truth. If they are loyalists left over from the Heresy, then somebody in authority at the time knows about them. Most likely the nascent Inquisition. There weren't thousands of chapters running around back then; there were nine loyalist legions. The Second Founding took place on Terra, so all the legions would have been present to shave off companies and turn them into Chapters. There would be no way to "hide" the creation of a Chapter of loyalists made from traitors then. So, given those facts, if there are loyalists directly descended from traitors, somebody *must* know about them. Which means they are being watched like hawks, no matter how loyal they have proven themselves in the past 10,000 years. The Imperium doesn't do forgiveness, so if all your friends turned traitor and you stayed loyal (even if you killed all of your traitor friends to prove your loyalty) you are always under suspicion. Always.

Could a group of loyalist traitors (oxymoron, much?) exist as a Chapter? Yes, absolutely. Is there an Inquisitor sleeping on the couch in their Chapter Fortress at all times, keeping an eye on them? Extra absolutely.

Now, the 21st Founding was fuelled by crazy, and it is *strongly* implied by GW that at least one, possibly more Chapters created then were made using traitor geneseed. So it is very possible that there are a couple of loyalist Chapters from the 21st that were made with traitor squishy bits and are currently serving the Emperor. It is possible that certain geneseed flaws were corrected during this Founding (fuelled by crazy, like I said) which means the Flesh Change of the 1K Kiddies' geneseed *may* have been fixed (if the Red Magpies are actually Thousand Sons; the jury is still out on that). Of course, most of the 21st Founding Chapters have... quirks... that make them less amazing than a lot of other Chapters. The Lamenters fixed the Black Rage and the Red Thirst completely, but then suffered from an astounding amount of bad luck (nearly being wiped out several times before having a hive fleet dropped on them) which may have led to their extinction (again; jury is still out on that... they may not be all dead, just mostly dead).

But, as Foundings don't just happen on their own, and all the traitor geneseed is locked away under stasis seals, it is unlikely that anyone made a loyalist Chapter out of traitor geneseed without the Inquisition knowing. And by "unlikely" I mean "totally impossible". So again, you have the Big =I= being aware of the existence of the loyalist traitors.

TL; DR version: Is it possible? Yes. Is it possible without anyone knowing the truth? No. Someone always knows, and they are called the Inquisition.

Well, regardless of the Blood Ravens and Silver Skulls, we do know that as of "currently" in the BL Horus Heresy series, there's a bunch of loyalist Thousand Sons roaming around who the hell knows where, a bunch of loyalist Iron Warriors "safe" with the Ultramarines, and a handful of loyalist Death Guard (that escapped with Garro, IIRC) (we also know of at least one other pocket of loyalist Iron Warriors in the 3rd HH book hilariously because they never got the memo their legion turned traitor when the Alpha Legion started shooting them, but there's a decent chance they'll be wiped out)

Presumably when the BL HH series end, it'll tell us whatever happened to those loyalists. Assuming any of them canonically survived and were alloewd to continue serving in the Imperium, all "present day" fluff has no mention of any loyalist chapters from traitor primarchs.

Therefore, the possible outcomes, if we are assuming present day 40k fluff instead of a what-if scenario, are (not including Grey Knight precursors):

A) All the Loyalists from traitor legions were either wiped out in battle in the Heresy (doubtful for those Iron Warriors with the Ultramarines. They're probably safe as hell to survive the Heresy)

B) Or not allowed to recruit any more people until they died slowly from attrition (seems a bit harsh but I suppose that'd be one of the more viable solutions for an untrusting Imperium)

C) exterminated by the Imperium afterwards just like the Thunder Warriors (in my opinion, that's TOO harsh even by the standards of a paranoid Imperium when you consider that Garro is publically known as "The Hero of Ishtvaan" and that Malcador trusted several of them with being Grey Knights. And at that time, I'm not sure the Imperium could afford to go around exterminating people loyal to it when it needed all the forces it could spare to do the scouring and hold things together. IMHO, of course)

D) Went on to become loyalist chapters but had their records of ancestry expunged or altered (because otherwise, we'd hear of loyalst chapters descended from traitor primarchs in 40k present day fluff)




Now, let's say A, B, or C is the actual canon (and thus that BR and SS are NOT descendants of TS and IW).

In that case, your what-if scenario could be pretty much whatever the hell you want, because there's no precedent in "canon" for a traitor legoin loyalist to continue serving the Imperium.

If, however, either BR or SS or anyone else are in fact descended from the traitor legions, option D is the only sensible option, I think.




On a side note with the Blood Ravens and the Flesh Change what-ifs.... didn't the Flesh Change only return because the Thousand Sons were in the warp? In that case, the loyalist Thousand Sons that never escaped to the warp (assuming they survived the Heresy in the first place) would not have been affected by the Flesh Change's 2nd coming.

According to the Wiki:

Some time later, the surviving Thousand Sons Marines began to suffer severely once more from the constant mutations of their genomes that were always a result of time exposed to the Chaos energies of the Eye of Terror. In addition, the Thousand Sons' patron Chaos power Tzeentch was the very embodiment of Change, and he often gave mutational "gifts" to those who served him.



So yea, if the wiki got that quote from an actual source (I don't know if it did or not), then any hypothetical loyalist Thousand Sons would never have been hit by the Flesh Change's second coming, and thus would be able to hypothetically become a loyalist chapter descended from Magnus just fine (hypothetically). So the Flesh Change doesn't rule out the Blood Ravens being from Magnus at all, if I'm reading that right. It only came back AFTER the traitor Thousand Sons had fled to the Eye of Terror and explicitly was because of being in the warp and because of serving Tzeentch (if the wiki is authentic on the matter)

On a side note with the Blood Ravens and the Flesh Change what-ifs.... didn't the Flesh Change only return because the Thousand Sons were in the warp? In that case, the loyalist Thousand Sons that never escaped to the warp (assuming they survived the Heresy in the first place) would not have been affected by the Flesh Change's 2nd coming.

The Flesh Change affected the Legion basically from its Founding to the point where they found Magnus. The Flesh Change then returned after the Emperor left Prospero, and much more virulently, until Magnus did something (we are not told exactly what) that arrested its spread.

Given that the source of this mutation seems to be the geneseed itself, any stores of it that the AdMech has would, in all likelihood, be whatever the Emperor was using to create the Terran-born Thousand Sons, as nothing was recovered from Prospero (and, indeed, could not be). This gene-seed is known to be unstable, though it is not clear if whatever Magnus did on Prospero affected the stored gene-seed on Terra... or if he was even aware of it existing.

40K Wiki, incidentally, is often little better than fanon in many cases, printing home-brew settings and things as objective fact.

Lexicanum seems to agree that it was "embracing Chaos" that caused the flesh change to return:


With the embrace of Chaos, comes mutation. Despite avoiding such a fate for the duration of the Heresy itself, once the Thousand Sons had retreated back to the Planet of Sorcerers within the Eye of Terror members of the legion began to suffer the flesh-change; horrendous physical mutations, their bodies and minds twisted in ways only Chaos can achieve.



Again, the main issue is whether or not an actual fluff canon source explicitly stated or implied it was turning to Chaos that caused it.

If actual canon DID imply that, however, then my point still stands. It doesn't matter if Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch earlier to prevent the Flesh Change unless that deal doomed any and all TS to forever be bound to Chaos (which we don't know if it did or not)

What matters is that only a Thousand Son who embraced Chaos and/or fled to the Eye of Terror is doomed to suffer the flesh change (until the Rubric of Ahriman).

Whether or not a LOYALIST Thousand Son who didn't "embrace chaos" or live in "the eye of terror" is doomed to suffer the flesh change is up in the air.

MAYBE they are doomed to suffer the flesh change.

Or MAYBE they're not.

Because that "MAYBE" exists, it does not rule out the Blood Ravens being descended from loyalist Thousand Sons. Until someone can prove (find a "canon" source) that loyalist Thousand Sons are also doomed to suffer the flesh change again, the possibility that the loyalist TS contingent survived and went on to become a loyalist chapter exists (be it the Blood Ravens or whatever else, though BR are the most narratively implied from that short story with the raven "Knowledge is Power" guy)



This is, of course, assuming actual canon fluff really did imply the flesh change returned because of "embracing chaos" or "living in the eye of terror", obviously. Maybe it didn't.

According to this, though, Index Astartes said it was Tzeentch himself that did it. Again, it's possible he was only able to do this to those whom's souls he owned, and thus would not have affected the loyalist TS contingent that never gave their souls to Tzeentch:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ts.html



So yea, either it was "embracing Chaos", "living in the eye of terror", or "Tzeentch himself" that brought back the Flesh change. In all 3 cases, a loyalist TS that never gave his soul to Chaos in the first place could POSSIBLY have avoided a flesh change fate. And as long as that possibility exists, so does the possibility of the Blood Ravens being from that loyalist TS contingent.

These sources are bad than, The flesh change returned during the Fall of Prospero, Phosis T'kar became a Chaos spawn and He wasn't a Tzeentch devotee nor were any of the Sons back then.

Khonsu wrote:
These sources are bad than, The flesh change returned during the Fall of Prospero, Phosis T'kar became a Chaos spawn and He wasn't a Tzeentch devotee nor were any of the Sons back then.

Wasn't that because Phosis let his psychic powers run wild, in desperation? It happened when he was flinging telekenetic bolts all over the place and pushed to his limit. The same was stated for the others that turned into spawn.

It's also notable that the Black Library Horus Heresy series isn't over. Maybe there'll be a story someday where an alternate solution to the flesh change is found for the loyalist TS contingent.

use of their powers is what turned them.
its also the reason that I think any survivors would shun their use. there were already some sons that saw the use of powers as questionable at best and tried to refrain from using them.
the tutelaries also tricked them into using more power than they should have and increased the chance for change.

Can always have questions surrounding any remnant 1k Sons and why the Flesh Change appears to have ceased constantly swirling around them. Some might say it's the Emperor's Blessing to those who stayed loyal to him. Others, whisper perhaps that Tzeentch halted the changes for reasons only he can understand....for now...piquing the Inquisition's interest.

Or maybe it hasn't stopped, completely, and assorted brothers just occasionally go "missing" and never again mentioned by the chapter. What becomes of them is a mystery to the Imperium.

It's not like GW is ever going to clear everything up. So come up with what you like.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
use of their powers is what turned them.
its also the reason that I think any survivors would shun their use. there were already some sons that saw the use of powers as questionable at best and tried to refrain from using them.
the tutelaries also tricked them into using more power than they should have and increased the chance for change.

The Tutelaries did not trick anyone, They force-fed them with power against their will.
And intense use of their powers did not turn them Before the fall of Prospero.

 Coldstream wrote:
Can always have questions surrounding any remnant 1k Sons and why the Flesh Change appears to have ceased constantly swirling around them. Some might say it's the Emperor's Blessing to those who stayed loyal to him. Others, whisper perhaps that Tzeentch halted the changes for reasons only he can understand....for now...piquing the Inquisition's interest.

Or maybe it hasn't stopped, completely, and assorted brothers just occasionally go "missing" and never again mentioned by the chapter. What becomes of them is a mystery to the Imperium.

It's not like GW is ever going to clear everything up. So come up with what you like.

Actually, there is a very high chance GW (well, Black Library) will clear... well, not everything, but some things. Really, Black Library has already had a prophet talk about a raven crying tears of blood for its lost master in regards to the Thousand Sons. And then, later on, they had a short story where a member of the Corvidae (bird family that the raven belongs to) cult who leads a bunch of loyalist Thousand Sons uses the phrase "Knowledge is Power. Guard it well" and has a name very similar to the name of a famous Blood Raven.

Who's to say we won't get another short story or novella or something down the line that shows more of this loyalist Thousand Sons contingent? Who's to say we won't get a novel or story epilogue to the Horus Heresy that says what actually happened to these loyalist spin offs (if any of them survive)? Maybe we'll get a story that shows the loyalist Thousand Sons finding a cure for the Flesh Change. Or maybe instead we'll get a story having some loyalist Thousand Sons wonder why it never afflicted them, but regardless of their theories, it... didn't. Or maybe we'll get a story showing them getting afflicted anyways but just culling the ones hit by it while the rest live on.

The Horus Heresy series is far from over, so there's more than a decent enough chance that Black Library will reveal just what finally happened to several of these loyalist split-offs, and/or show more of the loyalist Thousand Sons and how they deal with the Flesh Change (if they have to deal with it at all). Assuming we the readers and writers all don't die of old age first, of course.

Unlike 40k proper, the Horus Heresy is actually progressing significantly, even if a bit slower than what most people would like. Therefore odds are pretty good at least a few more questions will be cleared up (...or retconned) before all is said and done.

Khonsu wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
use of their powers is what turned them.
its also the reason that I think any survivors would shun their use. there were already some sons that saw the use of powers as questionable at best and tried to refrain from using them.
the tutelaries also tricked them into using more power than they should have and increased the chance for change.

The Tutelaries did not trick anyone, They force-fed them with power against their will.
And intense use of their powers did not turn them Before the fall of Prospero.

There's "intense", and then there's "INTENSE". I'm pretty sure the Fall of Prospero involved the latter, but it might not be explicitly stated or implied. Dunno. I'm inclined to believe it was due to the sheer feets they were pulling off, though. Phosis, for example, was anhilating everything, up to and almost including Valedor himself, for crying out loud. And the others were like, controlling a friggin' Titan with the sheer power of their MIND.

DELETED

TiamatRoar wrote:


Actually, there is a very high chance GW (well, Black Library) will clear... well, not everything, but some things. Really, Black Library has already had a prophet talk about a raven crying tears of blood for its lost master in regards to the Thousand Sons. And then, later on, they had a short story where a member of the Corvidae (bird family that the raven belongs to) cult who leads a bunch of loyalist Thousand Sons uses the phrase "Knowledge is Power. Guard it well" and has a name very similar to the name of a famous Blood Raven.

Who's to say we won't get another short story or novella or something down the line that shows more of this loyalist Thousand Sons contingent? Who's to say we won't get a novel or story epilogue to the Horus Heresy that says what actually happened to these loyalist spin offs (if any of them survive)? Maybe we'll get a story that shows the loyalist Thousand Sons finding a cure for the Flesh Change. Or maybe instead we'll get a story having some loyalist Thousand Sons wonder why it never afflicted them, but regardless of their theories, it... didn't. Or maybe we'll get a story showing them getting afflicted anyways but just culling the ones hit by it while the rest live on.

The Horus Heresy series is far from over, so there's more than a decent enough chance that Black Library will reveal just what finally happened to several of these loyalist split-offs, and/or show more of the loyalist Thousand Sons and how they deal with the Flesh Change (if they have to deal with it at all). Assuming we the readers and writers all don't die of old age first, of course.

Unlike 40k proper, the Horus Heresy is actually progressing significantly, even if a bit slower than what most people would like. Therefore odds are pretty good at least a few more questions will be cleared up (...or retconned) before all is said and done..

Oh indeed....though I fully expect somewhere around the 9th Edition Rules to find that the Blood Ravens have been Retconned into the sole surviving Squats somewhere in the 87th Book of the HH series.

Hmmm.... Squat Marines..?

Heck, yeah!

I think one could simply start with reading the HH book "Scars" in which the White Scars find a Thousand Son who had survived on Prospero, they take him in and he fights with them.

TiamatRoar wrote:
where a member of the Corvidae (bird family that the raven belongs to) cult who leads a bunch of loyalist Thousand Sons uses the phrase "Knowledge is Power. Guard it well" and has a name very similar to the name of a famous Blood Raven...

You can't really use this as proof as it's a mantra echoed by many voices in the Imperium. I am sure there are other non Thousand Sons who have said the same words in the Heresy series, I think Erebus being one of them.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Coldstream wrote:
Can always have questions surrounding any remnant 1k Sons and why the Flesh Change appears to have ceased constantly swirling around them. Some might say it's the Emperor's Blessing to those who stayed loyal to him. Others, whisper perhaps that Tzeentch halted the changes for reasons only he can understand....for now...piquing the Inquisition's interest.

Or maybe it hasn't stopped, completely, and assorted brothers just occasionally go "missing" and never again mentioned by the chapter. What becomes of them is a mystery to the Imperium.

It's not like GW is ever going to clear everything up. So come up with what you like.

Actually, there is a very high chance GW (well, Black Library) will clear... well, not everything, but some things. Really, Black Library has already had a prophet talk about a raven crying tears of blood for its lost master in regards to the Thousand Sons. And then, later on, they had a short story where a member of the Corvidae (bird family that the raven belongs to) cult who leads a bunch of loyalist Thousand Sons uses the phrase "Knowledge is Power. Guard it well" and has a name very similar to the name of a famous Blood Raven.

Who's to say we won't get another short story or novella or something down the line that shows more of this loyalist Thousand Sons contingent? Who's to say we won't get a novel or story epilogue to the Horus Heresy that says what actually happened to these loyalist spin offs (if any of them survive)? Maybe we'll get a story that shows the loyalist Thousand Sons finding a cure for the Flesh Change. Or maybe instead we'll get a story having some loyalist Thousand Sons wonder why it never afflicted them, but regardless of their theories, it... didn't. Or maybe we'll get a story showing them getting afflicted anyways but just culling the ones hit by it while the rest live on.

The Horus Heresy series is far from over, so there's more than a decent enough chance that Black Library will reveal just what finally happened to several of these loyalist split-offs, and/or show more of the loyalist Thousand Sons and how they deal with the Flesh Change (if they have to deal with it at all). Assuming we the readers and writers all don't die of old age first, of course.

Unlike 40k proper, the Horus Heresy is actually progressing significantly, even if a bit slower than what most people would like. Therefore odds are pretty good at least a few more questions will be cleared up (...or retconned) before all is said and done.

Khonsu wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
use of their powers is what turned them.
its also the reason that I think any survivors would shun their use. there were already some sons that saw the use of powers as questionable at best and tried to refrain from using them.
the tutelaries also tricked them into using more power than they should have and increased the chance for change.

The Tutelaries did not trick anyone, They force-fed them with power against their will.
And intense use of their powers did not turn them Before the fall of Prospero.

There's "intense", and then there's "INTENSE". I'm pretty sure the Fall of Prospero involved the latter, but it might not be explicitly stated or implied. Dunno. I'm inclined to believe it was due to the sheer feets they were pulling off, though. Phosis, for example, was anhilating everything, up to and almost including Valedor himself, for crying out loud. And the others were like, controlling a friggin' Titan with the sheer power of their MIND.

Phosis T'kar shielded Magnus from a goddamn Bio-Titan before, No Flesh changed ensued, If that's not Capital Intense I don't know what Is.
Nice try though.

He also had magnus there with him and if it was tzeentch pulling the strings on the change then I'm sure it wasn't in his best interest to force a change at that point.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
where a member of the Corvidae (bird family that the raven belongs to) cult who leads a bunch of loyalist Thousand Sons uses the phrase "Knowledge is Power. Guard it well" and has a name very similar to the name of a famous Blood Raven...

You can't really use this as proof as it's a mantra echoed by many voices in the Imperium. I am sure there are other non Thousand Sons who have said the same words in the Heresy series, I think Erebus being one of them.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm merely pointing out the POSSIBILITY. That said, Erebus doesn't have anything to do with ravens nor is his name Arvida nor is there a prophecy about him being a raven crying tears of blood. By itself, the Blood Raven's catch phrase is pretty meaningless. In combination with everything else though, it's obvious the writers are trying to send a message (or a huge red herring if they're in a really troll-tastic mood)

Khonsu wrote:

Phosis T'kar shielded Magnus from a goddamn Bio-Titan before, No Flesh changed ensued, If that's not Capital Intense I don't know what Is.
Nice try though.

He rolled a lucky invulnerable save.

More seriously, that's irrelevant. The novel makes it explicit that the flesh change that hit the rest of them was due to outlying circumstances (that's why only Phosis and a few others changed under specific circumstances instead of all of them at random). We don't need to argue or speculate on other possibilities (like maybe the shielding was just one straw in the camel's back but not the final one, for example) whether the bio titan shielding should have been intense enough to trigger the flesh change, because we have the facts at hand. And the facts are that, for whatever reason, it didn't, while the circumstances at Prospero did.

And even if you're right and Phosis' own feelings on the matter that they're all doomed are true, it doesn't matter. I repeat, THE HORUS HERESY SERIES ISN'T OVER YET. Really, Arvida (one of the loyalist Thousand Sons) is still active as of the (very relatively recent) novel Scars even after Prospero already burned (although I'm unsure if Ahriman casted his rubric yet or not in the timeline) so it's not like BL has forgotten the loyalist Thousand Sons (if anything, they're almost guaranteed to conclude the matter one way or the other since they keep coming up). Until they actually get eliminated from the plot in whatever way, be it the flesh change or anything else, writing off the Blood Ravens as not even having the possibility of being from the Thousand Sons is a logic fail.

(also, I've already linked to an ACTUAL index Astartes article that's very explicit on the matter. So either you're misinterpretting the BL book or there was a retcon. Or a BL writer research fail. I can't say which one it is, but again, the fact that it can be any of the three until the Horus Heresy series ends leaves open the possibility)

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
where a member of the Corvidae (bird family that the raven belongs to) cult who leads a bunch of loyalist Thousand Sons uses the phrase "Knowledge is Power. Guard it well" and has a name very similar to the name of a famous Blood Raven...

You can't really use this as proof as it's a mantra echoed by many voices in the Imperium. I am sure there are other non Thousand Sons who have said the same words in the Heresy series, I think Erebus being one of them.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm merely pointing out the POSSIBILITY. That said, Erebus doesn't have anything to do with ravens nor is his name Arvida nor is there a prophecy about him being a raven crying tears of blood. By itself, the Blood Raven's catch phrase is pretty meaningless. In combination with everything else though, it's obvious the writers are trying to send a message (or a huge red herring if they're in a really troll-tastic mood)

Khonsu wrote:

Phosis T'kar shielded Magnus from a goddamn Bio-Titan before, No Flesh changed ensued, If that's not Capital Intense I don't know what Is.
Nice try though.

He rolled a lucky invulnerable save.

More seriously, that's irrelevant. The novel makes it explicit that the flesh change that hit the rest of them was due to outlying circumstances (that's why only Phosis and a few others changed under specific circumstances instead of all of them at random). We don't need to argue or speculate on other possibilities (like maybe the shielding was just one straw in the camel's back but not the final one, for example) whether the bio titan shielding should have been intense enough to trigger the flesh change, because we have the facts at hand. And the facts are that, for whatever reason, it didn't, while the circumstances at Prospero did.

And even if you're right and Phosis' own feelings on the matter that they're all doomed are true, it doesn't matter. I repeat, THE HORUS HERESY SERIES ISN'T OVER YET. Really, Arvida (one of the loyalist Thousand Sons) is still active as of the (very relatively recent) novel Scars even after Prospero already burned (although I'm unsure if Ahriman casted his rubric yet or not in the timeline) so it's not like BL has forgotten the loyalist Thousand Sons (if anything, they're almost guaranteed to conclude the matter one way or the other since they keep coming up). Until they actually get eliminated from the plot in whatever way, be it the flesh change or anything else, writing off the Blood Ravens as not even having the possibility of being from the Thousand Sons is a logic fail.

(also, I've already linked to an ACTUAL index Astartes article that's very explicit on the matter. So either you're misinterpretting the BL book or there was a retcon. Or a BL writer research fail. I can't say which one it is, but again, the fact that it can be any of the three until the Horus Heresy series ends leaves open the possibility)

Just trying to prove that the Flesh Change is caused by Tzeentch and Tzeentch alone, The changer of ways himself, Not any reckless use of Sorcery.