Psychic Focus & Pink Horrors Poll

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**Big Blind Bill**

The question of how many psychic powers psykers from codex Chaos Daemons can use still seems to lack an official answer.

Despite reading several forums and blogs it seems that there is no general consensus.

I wish to see how the majority of players interpret these rules.

**insaniak**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/280663.page

Moving to YMDC.

**CrownAxe**

Regular Focus disapears when you gain a power from another discipline

Chaos Focus gives you a power from another discipline.

**blaktoof**

regular focus disappears when you -generate- a power from another discipline.

a generated power requires you to roll for it.

chaos focus is not a generated power.

**Ravenous D**

Ive been playing it as 2 Primis and the one roll. Hasn't made a difference as most daemon armies are burning dice trying to get off invisibility from Smel'A'Kor, and various other spells instead of flickering fire.

Da boyz GT ruled it the other way where its just the Tzeentch Primis and the one roll. Didn't really matter, daemon players just summoned more units to get the other powers. My buddy would just go for cursed earth or the herald summoning one, it being WC 1 is bananas considering you get a ML2 psyker for free, who gets 2 more rolls on Malefic.

**CrownAxe**

blaktoof wrote:
regular focus disappears when you -generate- a power from another discipline.

a generated power requires you to roll for it.

chaos focus is not a generated power.

it doesn't say when you generate. It says when you gain a power (which you do through Chaos Focus). The Marks of "x" care if you generate.

**blaktoof**

CrownAxe wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
regular focus disappears when you -generate- a power from another discipline.

a generated power requires you to roll for it.

chaos focus is not a generated power.

it doesn't say when you generate. It says when you gain a power (which you do through Chaos Focus). The Marks of "x" care if you generate.

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins.

you generate powers before the game begins.

To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline;

you roll to generate powers

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus,

If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus

chaos focus is not a generated power, and is not "gained" during the course of the game, it is gained before the game.

**Lungpickle**

The rule says if he gains another power not generate it. Daemons do not get both psychic focus and chaos psychic focus. They get chaos only.

Therefore that pink horror would have the one spell in malific, and the primaris of change. Both can be the primaris this way.

**DeathReaper**

CrownAxe wrote:
Regular Focus disapears when you gain a power from another discipline

Chaos Focus gives you a power from another discipline.

Incorrect.

Regular Focus disappears when you gain a power from another discipline during the game.

"If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" (Psychic Focus rules).

Psychic Focus is not generated and not gained during the game, so the pink horrors will have both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus.

**Fragile**

DeathReaper wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Regular Focus disapears when you gain a power from another discipline

Chaos Focus gives you a power from another discipline.

Incorrect.

Regular Focus disappears when you gain a power from another discipline during the game.

(If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" (Psychic Focus rules).

Psychic Focus is not generated and not gained during the game, so the pink horrors will have both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus.

This entirely depends on what your definition of "during the game" means.

**blaktoof**

Fragile wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Regular Focus disapears when you gain a power from another discipline

Chaos Focus gives you a power from another discipline.

Incorrect.

Regular Focus disappears when you gain a power from another discipline during the game.

(If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus" (Psychic Focus rules).

Psychic Focus is not generated and not gained during the game, so the pink horrors will have both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus.

This entirely depends on what your definition of "during the game" means.

not really.

as one happens before the game.- generating psychic powers gaining psychic powers form focus, force, etc.

during the game is certainly not before the game.

There are ways to gain psychic powers during the game such as scrolls of magnus.

**xera32**

I brought this up when 7th was released and was dismissed out of hand.

xera32 wrote:
The first time i read this it made sense to me until other people started saying it didn't work that way. So I would be grateful of some clarification on how people came to their conclusions.

"Psychic Focus
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers."

Ok so if you generate all your powers from 1 discipline you get the primaris for free.

"If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power) ."

If you gain a power during the game you lose the primaris and do so before the game. So far so good.

"Generating Psychic Powers
Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. ... Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him. ... To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 ... If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat"

So a psyker only generates powers by rolling for them.

So where is the restriction removing psychic focus when you gain chaos psychic focus? if you generated all your powers (rolling) on one discipline you gain psychic focus. You gain chaos psychic focus automatically and not through generation. And you don't gain it during the game ("that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity").

**blaktoof**

You were correct by the RAW.

there is no RAW support that chaos focus removes psychic focus in of itself, without omitting rules which in this case would be "powers are generated before the game begins" and "powers gained during the game cause the loss of psychic focus"

chaos focus is not generated, and is granted before the game begins, just like psychic focus, and force.

In fact if you read the example for generating psychic powers they check to see if the model is granted chaos focus before it generates powers or checks to see if it has psychic focus from generating powers.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

xera32 wrote:
I brought this up when 7th was released and was dismissed out of hand.

xera32 wrote:
The first time i read this it made sense to me until other people started saying it didn't work that way. So I would be grateful of some clarification on how people came to their conclusions.

"Psychic Focus
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers."

Ok so if you generate all your powers from 1 discipline you get the primaris for free.

"If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power) ."

If you gain a power during the game you lose the primaris and do so before the game. So far so good.

"Generating Psychic Powers
Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. ... Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him. ... To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 ... If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat"

So a psyker only generates powers by rolling for them.

So where is the restriction removing psychic focus when you gain chaos psychic focus? if you generated all your powers (rolling) on one discipline you gain psychic focus. You gain chaos psychic focus automatically and not through generation. And you don't gain it during the game ("that model automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity").

But you did not generate all your powers rolling on one discipline. You have at least one power (Flickering Fire) that was not generated. Since you did not generate all of your powers, you did not generate all of your powers from the same discipline. Therefore you do not gain Psychic Focus.

Now if the rule had read:

If all the powers generated by the Psyker are from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Then you would be correct.

Now if you want to argue that Chaos Psychic Focus is granted after Psychic Focus is granted but before the game begins then that's a different matter. However, given the fact that in the rulebook example Chaos Psychic Focus eligibility is checked before rolling for powers, I think this might be a tough case to make.

**xera32**

Read up how you generate psychic powers, it is quite clear in my post and the rulebook. You can only generate powers by rolling for them.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

xera32 wrote:
Read up how you generate psychic powers, it is quite clear in my post and the rulebook. You can only generate powers by rolling for them.

Read my post again. I did not claim Flickering Fire is a generated power. To qualify for Psychic Focus you must generate all your powers from the same discipline. Not just all your generated powers. All your powers. Period. This is a subtle but important difference. To satisfy the criterion the following conditions must be met. Every power* must be:

1) generated
2) not generated from a different discipline as the psyker's other powers.

For example, take a unit of Pink Horrors. They get Flickering Fire due to Chaos Psychic Focus. They choose to generate a power from Malefic and roll Incursion. Do they get Psychic Focus? Well, what powers do they have? Flickering Fire and Incursion. Were all of their powers generated from a single discipline? No - Flickering Fire was not generated so it doesn't satisfy condition 1) above. They have at least one power that does not satisfy the criterion. Therefore not all of their powers satisfy the criterion. They do not gain Psychic Focus.

* There is an explicit exception to the above - if a power does not belong to any discipline it is disregarded entirely. Mind Worm and Force fall under this exception.

**DeathReaper**

The point being that you did generate all your powers from one discipline, as the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is never generated.

So you still have abided by the rule about generating all of your powers from a single discipline.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
For example, take a unit of Pink Horrors. They get Flickering Fire due to Chaos Psychic Focus. They choose to generate a power from Malefic and roll Incursion. Do they get Psychic Focus?

Yes they do, as Flickering Fire is not generated, they have generated all of their powers from demonology (Malefic).

**Abadabadoobaddon**

DeathReaper wrote:
The point being that you did generate all your powers from one discipline, as the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is never generated.

So you still have abided by the rule about generating all of your powers from a single discipline.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
For example, take a unit of Pink Horrors. They get Flickering Fire due to Chaos Psychic Focus. They choose to generate a power from Malefic and roll Incursion. Do they get Psychic Focus?

Yes they do, as Flickering Fire is not generated, they have generated all of their powers from demonology (Malefic).

How have they generated all their powers from Malefic? Make a list of all their powers:

1. Incursion - generated from Malefic.
2. Flickering Fire - not generated.

Have they generated all their powers from Malefic? No - they have at least one power that was not generated. Therefore they don't get Psychic Focus.

The problem is you are misreading the rule. You are putting an implied "generated" in the following:

If a Psyker generates all of his [generated] powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

But that's not what the rule says. It doesn't matter if all the powers he generates are from the same discipline. To fulfill the condition all his powers must be 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. The Horrors fail 1) due to Flickering Fire and therefore don't gain Psychic Focus.

**DeathReaper**

But they have generated all of their powers from Malefic

Because you do not generate the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus

For them to be eligible for Psychic Focus, they need to have generated all their powers from the same psychic discipline.

If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.

Luckily the Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus rule are only concerned with the generated powers and not Force or powers that are not generated.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

DeathReaper wrote:
But they have generated all of their powers from Malefic

No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.

The 2 statements below mean 2 different things:

1) I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.

2) All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.

You must satisfy 1) to gain Psychic Focus. Horrors satisfy 2).

If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.

False. There is an explicit exception for powers that do not belong to a discipline:

If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.

Were it not for the above exception, psykers with a Force weapon would be ineligible for Psychic Focus due to the fact that they have a power that was not generated.

**blaktoof**

If it state the psyker only knows powers generated from one discipline I would agree with you.

but as the qualifer is that the psyker generates only powers from one discipline then it qualifies it by saying that non generated powers do not count, otherwise force would always negate psychic focus.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

blaktoof wrote:
If it state the psyker only knows powers generated from one discipline I would agree with you.

Then you agree with me, because that's what the rule states. All the powers that the psyker knows must be 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline.

but as the qualifer is that the psyker generates only powers from one discipline then it qualifies it by saying that non generated powers do not count, otherwise force would always negate psychic focus.

That's not what the rule says. The restriction is not on what powers the psyker generates. It's on all the powers the psyker knows. All the powers must be 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. And the reason why Force does not negate Psychic Focus is because it does not belong to a discipline and there is an explicit exception for powers that do not belong to a discipline. On the other hand, the primaris powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus all belong to a discipline.

**Big Blind Bill**

If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.

That is a good point. Would the people arguing for 2 powers for horrors, rather than 3, agree that librarians with force weapons can never claim psychic focus?

**Fragile**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.

That is a good point. Would the people arguing for 2 powers for horrors, rather than 3, agree that librarians with force weapons can never claim psychic focus?

Except the rule specifically stating the opposite.

**xera32**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.

This would be accurate is chaos psychic focus was generated which it is not.

there is only 1 way to generate powers, and that is by following the rules in the sub-section Generating Psychic Powers

This is a complete breakdown of all the rules.

Mastery Levels
"the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers
equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated,
as described below."

You generate a number of powers equal to mastery level. Note the word generate, if focuses were generated, they would count as 1 of the mastery level powers.

Generating Psychic Powers
In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific
psychic powers listed - where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These
Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a
Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic
disciplines known to him.

You generate powers by either having them specifically listed in the entry (e.g. mind worm), or generate randomly by rolling. Now I know you are going to say chaos focus is a "specific psychic power" but it is not. It is not clearly stated, and it is not listed in the unit entry. An example of a specific power would be things like the hemlock wraith fighter, Draigo, harlequins, or broodlords.

Generating Psychic Powers
"If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above
process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated."

You keep generating until you have generated as many powers as your mastery level. This means the only generated powers are ones that are done by the methods listed under the Generating Psychic Powers section.

Chaos Psychic Focus
"If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular
Chaos God (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos
Daemons), that model automatically knows the primaris power of
the discipline that corresponds to their patron deity, in addition
to any other powers it knows."

My emphasis on the bolded portion. Chaos psychic focus is known, it is not generated. It doesn't follow anything under the generation section.

Psychic Focus
"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic
discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker
is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's
primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Straight forward.

If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a
different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus
(and the associated primaris power)."

My emphasis on the bolded portion. Before the game is not during the game. Therefore the knowledge of powers that are not part of the disciple does not affect focus unless you gain them during the game.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

xera32 wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.

This would be accurate is chaos psychic focus was generated which it is not.

Where have I ever claimed that powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are generated? They are not generated. That is why they prevent Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus requires that all the psyker's powers be both 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus do not satisfy 1). I don't know how to make this any clearer.

Before going any further you need to read the 2 statements below and figure out the difference in meaning between them:

Statement 1: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement 2: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.

If you can't see the difference in meaning between the 2 statements above then there is no sense in continuing.

The Psychic Focus rule requires Statement 1 to be satisfied. You have misinterpreted this rule to have the meaning of Statement 2. But I would hope that by looking at the actual wording of the rule it would be clear that it directly corresponds to Statement 1 and not Statement 2.

Please take the time to read and understand my arguments before you reply.

**blaktoof**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
xera32 wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, they have not. Is Flickering Fire one of their powers? Yes. Was Flickering Fire generated from Malefic? No, it was not generated at all. Therefore they have a power that was not generated from Malefic. Therefore they do not gain Psychic Focus.

This would be accurate is chaos psychic focus was generated which it is not.

Where have I ever claimed that powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are generated? They are not generated. That is why they prevent Psychic Focus. Psychic Focus requires that all the psyker's powers be both 1) generated and 2) from the same discipline. Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus do not satisfy 1). I don't know how to make this any clearer.

Before going any further you need to read the 2 statements below and figure out the difference in meaning between them:

Statement 1: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement 2: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.

If you can't see the difference in meaning between the 2 statements above then there is no sense in continuing.

The Psychic Focus rule requires Statement 1 to be satisfied. You have misinterpreted this rule to have the meaning of Statement 2. But I would hope that by looking at the actual wording of the rule it would be clear that it directly corresponds to Statement 1 and not Statement 2.

Please take the time to read and understand my arguments before you reply.

what you are saying is correct, if you are going by what you state.

but what you state are not the actual rules, which is why it is incorrect.

psychic focus is granted if all of your other generated powers are from the same discipline.

psychic focus is lost if you gain a power during the course of the game.

as powers are generated before the game begins, along with the granting of psychic focus and chaos focus, they are not gained during the course of the game. Chaos focus is not a generated power, but is a power gained before the game begins, not during the course of the game which is the qualifier for losing psychic focus.

as such you can RAW have chaos focus and psychic focus under certain circumstances.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

blaktoof wrote:
psychic focus is granted if all of your other generated powers are from the same discipline.

This is not what the rule says.

To help you identify where your error in logic is occurring I've created a homework assignment for you.

YMDC 101
Professor Abadabadoobaddon
Problem Set 1

The following questions refer to the 2 statements below.

Statement A: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement B: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.

Question 1
What is the difference between Statement A and Statement B? Give an example of a situation where Statement B is true but Statement A is false.

Question 2
Consider the following rule:

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Does the wording of the conditional clause in the first part of the rule more closely resemble Statement A or Statement B?

Question 3
Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are not generated. According to the rule in Question 2, has a Psyker with a primaris power granted by Chaos Psychic Focus generated all of his powers from the same discipline?

I will be available during my regular office hours if you need extra help completing the assignment.

**DeathReaper**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
psychic focus is granted if all of your other generated powers are from the same discipline.

This is not what the rule says.

To help you identify where your error in logic is occurring I've created a homework assignment for you.

YMDC 101
Professor Abadabadoobaddon
Problem Set 1

The following questions refer to the 2 statements below.

Statement A: I have generated all of my powers from the same discipline.
Statement B: All the powers I have generated are from the same discipline.

Question 1
What is the difference between Statement A and Statement B? Give an example of a situation where Statement B is true but Statement A is false.

Question 2
Consider the following rule:

If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Does the wording of the conditional clause in the first part of the rule more closely resemble Statement A or Statement B?

Question 3
Powers granted by Chaos Psychic Focus are not generated. According to the rule in Question 2, has a Psyker with a primaris power granted by Chaos Psychic Focus generated all of his powers from the same discipline?

The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."

This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

And to generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section).

So there are two ways to generate a power. granted powers, like the one from Chaos Psychic Focus, are not generated and as such you can still gain Psychic Focus, because you have generated all of your powers from the same discipline.

It is like context is important or something.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

DeathReaper wrote:
The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."

This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.