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If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Note that the above is in a separate self-contained box off to the side in the section entitled "Mastery Levels". It does NOT appear in the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers" (that would be the next section). The "Mastery Levels" section deals with the number of powers a Psyker knows including generated powers as well as powers granted by Psychic Focus and the Force special rule. Therefore we cannot simply assume that any reference to "powers" here really means "generated powers" by virtue of its location in this section as the section addresses all powers, not just generated ones.
Now note the last sentence in the quote above - "if a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline" they are not considered for determining Psychic Focus. So what powers are considered when determining Psychic Focus? Powers the Psyker "has" that are "part of a discipline". And which ones do we consider? Some of his powers? No - per the first sentence in the quote above, we must consider "all of his powers".
Now for the sake of argument, let's assume that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" as you claim. Is Force a generated power? No - if the Psyker has a weapon with the Force special rule he automatically knows the Force psychic power. So if Force is not a generated power and we only care about generated powers what is the purpose of the last sentence in the quoted section above? Why are they including an exception for a non-generated power if the rule only deals with generated powers?
We must consider "all of his powers" from the ones he is allowed to choose, as per the context of the rules entry.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: We must consider "all of his powers" from the ones he is allowed to choose, as per the context of the rules entry.
You have made vague and repeated (and repeated and repeated...) references to "context" but have so far given literally zero support from the written rules for this interpretation. Repeating the word "context" ad nauseam without any further explanation is not an argument.
I have demonstrated that your interpretation requires the inference of words that are not actually written in the rules. I have further quoted the rules entry in its entirety as well as references to the section of the rulebook in which it is located showing that no such inferences are supportable by anything actually written there. You have yet to address any of my points.
If it is your contention that the instance of the verb "generates" in the rule in question becomes an implicit adjective modifying the direct object "all of his powers" - and that it does so by virtue of the structure of that one sentence without reference to or reliance upon any context external to said sentence - all I can say to you is that this is in contravention of the rules of English grammar. If that is your position then I see no point in continuing this debate because we are, in essence, arguing in two different languages.
If that is not in fact your position then, in keeping with Tenet 1 of this forum, please formulate an actual argument based on the rules as written before replying.
Thanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/02 16:03:07
I have formulated an actual argument based on the rules as written and you have ignored it, and the context of what the sentence is talking about. Your argument falls short because it fails to take the context into account.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: I have formulated an actual argument based on the rules as written and you have ignored it, and the context of what the sentence is talking about. Your argument falls short because it fails to take the context into account.
I see that you have once again avoided addressing any of my points. Also I'd appreciate it if in the future you would refrain from making false accusations - I have not ignored any of your arguments. On the contrary I've directly refuted each of your arguments every time you've actually bothered to formulate one:
DeathReaper wrote: If you say that a psyker that has the power associated with Chaos Psychic Focus is not eligible for Psychic Focus Then any Psyker with a force weapon would also be ineligible for Psychic Focus.
False. There is an explicit exception for powers that do not belong to a discipline:
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Were it not for the above exception, psykers with a Force weapon would be ineligible for Psychic Focus due to the fact that they have a power that was not generated.
DeathReaper wrote: The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.
This assertion is not supported by the RAW. The rule is quite clear that the restriction applies to "all of his powers" not just "all of his generated powers". To claim otherwise is to make up rules that aren't actually there.
It is supported if you do not ignore the context.
"If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."
This rule is discussing only the powers that a psyker can generate (As per the genearting Psychic Powers rules which includes rolling on the discipline), it is not concerned with non generated powers.
The rule in question is not discussing only powers the psyker can generate - it is discussing what condition must be met in order for a psyker to be granted a free non-generated power. In order to do so the psyker must generate "all of his powers" and they must be "from the same discipline". It doesn't say "all of his generated powers" - it says "all of his powers" period. It's spelled out in clear English. You are adding additional qualifiers there that don't actually exist and by doing so you are changing the entire meaning of the sentence.
If you are going to throw in additional "implicit" made-up language to the RAW that fundamentally changes their meaning IMHO you had better have more solid support than just "context". Your personal interpretation of the "context" does not entitle you to add made-up language to the rules, especially if a reasonable person can disagree with you about the "context" and his interpretation of the rules doesn't require the addition of made-up language.
Also note that they could have easily written it to mean what you're claiming (e.g., "If all the powers a Psyker generates are from the same psychic discipline...") but they did not.
"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus" (This is how you gain psychic focus, by choosing all of his powers from the same discipline).
Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.
You do realize that the rule you just quoted has exactly the same grammatical structure as the rule that grants Psychic Focus, right? Here, I'll color code it for you:
If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline...
Subject: Psyker
Verb: chosen, generates
Direct object: all of his powers
You have shown that generating is equivalent to choosing. You have not shown that all of his powers is equivalent to all of his generated powers. Try again.
DeathReaper wrote: "If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.
This. This is the assertion I want you to prove. You have stated it many times but have not provided any evidence as to why the sentence you quoted is only concerned with generated powers despite the fact that it says "all of his powers". This is the premise on which your entire argument is rests. Every other point you have made as to what constitutes a "generated power", when a power is gained, etc. is irrelevant if your premise is incorrect. Unless you can prove the assertion that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" your argument has no logical basis. I have yet to see you attempt to prove this. On the other hand I have presented evidence (which you have ignored) as to why this is NOT supported by the RAW:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Note that the above is in a separate self-contained box off to the side in the section entitled "Mastery Levels". It does NOT appear in the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers" (that would be the next section). The "Mastery Levels" section deals with the number of powers a Psyker knows including generated powers as well as powers granted by Psychic Focus and the Force special rule. Therefore we cannot simply assume that any reference to "powers" here really means "generated powers" by virtue of its location in this section as the section addresses all powers, not just generated ones.
Now note the last sentence in the quote above - "if a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline" they are not considered for determining Psychic Focus. So what powers are considered when determining Psychic Focus? Powers the Psyker "has" that are "part of a discipline". And which ones do we consider? Some of his powers? No - per the first sentence in the quote above, we must consider "all of his powers".
Now for the sake of argument, let's assume that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" as you claim. Is Force a generated power? No - if the Psyker has a weapon with the Force special rule he automatically knows the Force psychic power. So if Force is not a generated power and we only care about generated powers what is the purpose of the last sentence in the quoted section above? Why are they including an exception for a non-generated power if the rule only deals with generated powers?
Clearly it is you who are ignoring context.
If you have evidence to the contrary please present it - actual quotes from the rulebook will be necessary for this.
If you feel you have already presented said evidence and I have not addressed it please quote the post or posts in which you did and point out what arguments you feel I have not addressed.
Also if you have an explanation as to why, if the rule only deals with generated powers, Force requires an explicit exemption I'd like to hear that as well.
And before you respond, please note that repeating the word "context" over and over again while providing no further explanation or logical support for it is not an argument.
In closing I'd like to once more remind you of Tenet 1 of this forum:
Lorek wrote: 1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.
Your points are not valid as they ignore the context.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: Your points are not valid as they ignore the context.
Your post is not valid as it ignores Tenet 1.
My point does not, I provided quotes and everything from the BRB...
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: "If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.
This. This is the assertion I want you to prove. You have stated it many times but have not provided any evidence as to why the sentence you quoted is only concerned with generated powers despite the fact that it says "all of his powers". This is the premise on which your entire argument is rests. Every other point you have made as to what constitutes a "generated power", when a power is gained, etc. is irrelevant if your premise is incorrect. Unless you can prove the assertion that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" your argument has no logical basis. I have yet to see you attempt to prove this.
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers. If during the course of the game that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
Note that the above is in a separate self-contained box off to the side in the section entitled "Mastery Levels". It does NOT appear in the section entitled "Generating Psychic Powers" (that would be the next section). The "Mastery Levels" section deals with the number of powers a Psyker knows including generated powers as well as powers granted by Psychic Focus and the Force special rule. Therefore we cannot simply assume that any reference to "powers" here really means "generated powers" by virtue of its location in this section as the section addresses all powers, not just generated ones.
Now note the last sentence in the quote above - "if a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline" they are not considered for determining Psychic Focus. So what powers are considered when determining Psychic Focus? Powers the Psyker "has" that are "part of a discipline". And which ones do we consider? Some of his powers? No - per the first sentence in the quote above, we must consider "all of his powers".
Now for the sake of argument, let's assume that "all of his powers" really means "all of his *generated* powers" as you claim. Is Force a generated power? No - if the Psyker has a weapon with the Force special rule he automatically knows the Force psychic power. So if Force is not a generated power and we only care about generated powers what is the purpose of the last sentence in the quoted section above? Why are they including an exception for a non-generated power if the rule only deals with generated powers?
Once you actually take the context into account, This addresses it:
"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: Once you actually take the context into account, This addresses it:
"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).
The underlined is the portion of your argument that you have provided no support for. Please elaborate.
If you ignore the context of the rules, you will not understand the meaning of the sentences.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: Once you actually take the context into account, This addresses it:
"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section).
The underlined is the portion of your argument that you have provided no support for. Please elaborate.
This is all you will get. At this point this thread can be locked as it is a page of repetition now.
