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http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/us/unc-report-academic-fraud/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chapel Hill, North Carolina (CNN) -- For 18 years, thousands of students at the prestigious University of North Carolina took fake "paper classes," and advisers funneled athletes into the program to keep them eligible, according to a scathing independent report released Wednesday.
"These counselors saw the paper classes and the artificially high grades they yielded as key to helping some student-athletes remain eligible," Kenneth Wainstein wrote in his report. He conducted an eight-month investigation into the scandal, which has plagued the university for nearly five years.
Four employees have been fired and five more disciplined because of their roles. One other former employee had honorary status removed, Chancellor Carol Folt said Wednesday.
Wainstein is the former federal prosecutor hired by UNC to independently investigate the academic fraud brought to light by CNN, the Raleigh News & Observer and other media outlets.
In all, the report estimates, at least 3,100 students took the paper classes, but adds the number "very likely falls far short of the true number."
For the first time since the scandal first came to light five years ago, UNC admitted that the wrongdoing went further than academics and involved its athletic programs.
In fact, Folt said, "it was a university issue."

A stellar reputation comes crashing down
UNC has long been a place where it was believed that athletics and academics went hand in hand. It has enjoyed a stellar reputation, producing basketball greats such as coach Dean Smith and Michael Jordan.
Now, that reputation has been stained.
According to the report, one former head football coach, John Bunting, admitted to knowing of the paper classes and his successor, Butch Davis, also admitted some knowledge. Current men's basketball coach Roy Williams is steadfast that he did not know, Wainstein said.
The detailed 131-page report is being shared with the NCAA and could have huge implications for the university.
In the past 18 years, UNC has won three national championships for college basketball -- in 1993, 2005 and 2009 -- that could be in jeopardy along with countless wins.

And it wasn't just the revenue-generating sports that benefited.
The report says that athletes in a wide range of sports were involved, and it notes a noticeable spike of enrollment of Olympic-sport athletes between 2003 and 2005.
UNC in January: We failed students 'for years'

Report spreads the blame around
For five years, UNC has insisted the paper classes were the doing of one rogue professor: the department chair of the African American studies program, Julius Nyang'oro. Wainstein's report spread the blame much further.
It also revealed that it was Nyang'oro's assistant, Debbie Crowder, who actually created the paper classes out of sympathy for athletes and other students who were not "the best and the brightest." Nyang'oro went along with them when he figured them out.
Crowder was such a fan of UNC sports, particularly basketball, that she would sometimes miss work after a loss, the report says.
It was well-known on campus that Crowder was a lax grader and gave high grades without regard for content, Wainstein said, emphasizing that she never gave a grade unless a student submitted a paper and did not change grades that were already given.
Wainstein did find that five counselors actively used paper classes, calling them "GPA boosters," and that at least two counselors, one in football, suggested to Crowder the grade an athlete needed to receive to be able to continue to play.
Nyang'oro was more hands off. He had initially held legitimate independent studies classes, Wainstein said, but was accused of "being an ass" by counselors who felt he was too hard on athletes. Crowder then took it upon herself to create the first paper classes, naming Nyang'oro as the instructor even though she was managing all aspects of them: sending out paper topics, giving grades and assigning no meeting times.
"It is not clear whether Crowder ever got Nyang'oro's explicit approval to arrange these irregular independent studies. It is clear, however, that he ultimately learned about these classes and acquiesced in them by taking no action to put a halt to them."
When Crowder announced she was retiring, there was a spike in enrollment in the last year of her classes, because football counselors urged student athletes to sign up. Crowder actively tried to cover her activities, according to the report.

A strategy to keep players eligible
Former head football coach John Bunting admitted that he knew of the paper classes and said that former Director of Football Cynthia Reynolds told him they were part of her strategy to keep players eligible. Reynolds, who is now an academic program coordinator at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, was one of four employees who refused to cooperate with Wainstein's investigation.
The report shows that during Bunting's years as head coach, there was a steady rise of enrollment of football players in the paper classes.
Butch Davis, who succeeded Bunting as coach and was eventually fired in the wake of the scandal in 2011, also admitted to knowing there were "easy classes," Wainstein said.
Basketball coach Roy Williams maintained he had no knowledge of the fraud, Wainstein said, which was supported by a drop in enrollment in the suspect classes by basketball players during his tenure.
There were no findings regarding renowned coach Dean Smith, who is ill with dementia. For health reasons, the Wainstein team was also unable to interview his longtime No. 2 and eventual successor, Bill Guthridge.
The report does say that Smith's longtime academic adviser, the late Burgess McSwain, and her successor, Wayne Walden, knew about the paper classes.
McSwain, who died of cancer in 2004, was a very close friend to Crowder, the report says.
During the Smith years, 1961 to 1997, the report says there were 54 basketball players enrolled in paper classes. Although the paper classes did start in the spring of 1993, the year of Smith's final championship, grades would not have been entered until after the championship game was played.

A whistleblower's saga
Many of the academic-athletic staff who were named and implicated by Wainstein were also named by university Learning Specialist Mary Willingham, who went public with detailed allegations about paper classes and who, after a an all-out assault on her credibility by the university, has since filed a whistleblower suit.
CNN interviewed Willingham in January about her years working with student-athletes. She said that she had worked with dozens of athletes who came to UNC unable to read at an acceptable level, with some of them reading like elementary schoolchildren.
She also said that there were many members of the athletic staff who knew about the paper classes, and her revelations contradicted what UNC had claimed for years -- that Nyang'oro acted alone in providing the paper classes.
Whistle-blower in UNC paper class case files lawsuit
Willingham said paper classes were openly discussed as a way to keep athletes eligible to play, and former football player Michael McAdoo told CNN he was forced into majoring in African American studies, the department at the heart of the paper-classes scandal.
Willingham shared her reaction to the report with CNN on Wednesday:
"I didn't need Wainstein to validate me because the truth is validation enough, but I feel like what I've said for the last five years is in the report.
"I gave Chancellor Folt credit; she did a good job," she said.
Willingham also said she believes it took so many years and six previous investigations because "this is the flagship of the university system and of the state, and to admit we did anything wrong was too difficult there is a level of arrogance here and that's part of the culture."

Refused to help in investigation
Folt would not say who was fired or being disciplined. Wainstein, however, did name those who refused to cooperate, as:
-- Octavus Barnes, academic counselor for football 2002-2009.
-- Carolyn Cannon, associate dean and director of academic advising. 1999-2010, who was the principle adviser for the men's basketball team.
-- Cynthia Reynolds, director of football, 2002-2010. She was called a "critical witness."
-- Everett Withers, interim head football coach in 2011. He's now at James Madison University.
Scandal has been unfolding for years
The first hints of scandal began in 2010, with allegations that some athletes were having improper contact with agents. As the university investigated, it found academic irregularities and finally announced, under pressure from the News & Observer newspaper in Raleigh, that there were classes where very little work was required.
For the next five years, UNC administration was on the defensive, admitting only to allegations as they surfaced and never digging deep to the root of the problem.
Wainstein said he found no evidence that administrators tried to cover up anything.
He attributed the five-year delayed response to "insufficient appreciation of the scale of the problem."
Six previous internally commissioned reports had stopped short of systemic accusations.
Folt said that when she took the job as chancellor in October 2013, she decided to hire Wainstein because there were still too many unanswered questions.
"I wanted to be sure that we wouldn't have to do this again and again," she said.



 
   
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Beast Coast

That's disgusting.

   
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It'll be interesting to see what happens with this, and I don't just mean vacated wins. Students have to show Satisfactory Academic Progress to keep receiving Federal financial aid, so we could be looking at some serious charges.

 
   
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Cincinnati, Ohio

 Hordini wrote:
That's disgusting.


Yeup. Pretty much.

This is, to me, a big reason these kids need to be allowed to major in their sport if they so choose.

There are only so many Aaron Crafts and Grant Hills in big time college athletics.

 
   
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Northern IA

What?!?

A popular college with a storied athletic program that values athletics over academics?


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North Carolina

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
It'll be interesting to see what happens with this, and I don't just mean vacated wins. Students have to show Satisfactory Academic Progress to keep receiving Federal financial aid, so we could be looking at some serious charges.


Has Federal subisidies either to the institution or students ever been affected by an NCAA investigation? I can't recall that happening in any previous incident. This investigation has been ongoing for over 4 years now, ever since Marvin Austin sent out his infamous party tweet. There's new details in the latest report but the essential problem of athletes getting fake grades from a fake classat UNC has been known for a long time now.

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 cincydooley wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
That's disgusting.


Yeup. Pretty much.

This is, to me, a big reason these kids need to be allowed to major in their sport if they so choose.

There are only so many Aaron Crafts and Grant Hills in big time college athletics.
And what would they be able to do with that? Teach P.E? The point of a higher education is to improve yoursdelf. If these men have no drive to do that, then they should just go into a trade or drive trucks and leave spots open for those who will do something with it

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USA

 cincydooley wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
That's disgusting.


Yeup. Pretty much.

This is, to me, a big reason these kids need to be allowed to major in their sport if they so choose.

There are only so many Aaron Crafts and Grant Hills in big time college athletics.


Remember that famous College QB everyone was all excited about? I remember. I also remember laughing my ass off when he wound up on the Browns

   
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Cincinnati, Ohio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And what would they be able to do with that? Teach P.E? The point of a higher education is to improve yoursdelf. If these men have no drive to do that, then they should just go into a trade or drive trucks and leave spots open for those who will do something with it


This is a pretty condescending and myopic viewpoint.

In one phrase you've:

1. Basically said that teaching PE isn't a worthwhile endeavor.
2. Said that these HIGH LEVEL ATHLETES have no drive to improve themselves.
3. People who work in trades are "less than" people that get a university education.
4. People that drive trucks are "less than" people that get a university education.

The "purpose" of going to a university is to prepare yourself for the vocation in which you'd like to spend your adult life working. For most of these athletes, their sport is that vocation. Many don't make it, and thats EXACTLY why universities should be setting them up to succeed in classes that actually apply to their chosen vocation as opposed to forcing them into classes they already don't want to go to.

For every athlete, their "core" classes should consist of something like this:

Public Speaking
Brand Management
Personal Finance

And other classes that are applicable to their actual lives if they do end up with careers in their sport. Then you have a few branches for them after they've completed their core classes, like:

Education (although, apparently teaching PE isn't worth it)
Nutrition
Physical Therapy
Sports Broadcasting
Coaching (I'd wager you don't think this is worth it, either)
Sports Marketing

You know, stuff that actually works hand-in-hand with the sports they're already doing as, basically, a full time job (and I can tell you, when I played division III football, not division one, It was about 6 hours a day. For division III).

There's no reason to set them up to fail, and there's no reason to shove them into classes they don't want to take. When you do, you end up with gak like this. Let them major in their sport, because I guarantee you in today's society that a Degree in Football Management from Ohio State would be far more valuable than an Art History degree.

You should really be ashamed of your comment. It's almost as disgusting at the fraud at UNC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 15:49:37


 
   
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You know, I gotta say, when I saw "let them major in their sport" I thought that was a pretty stupid idea. But the expanding upon it you did is actually pretty compelling.


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 cincydooley wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And what would they be able to do with that? Teach P.E? The point of a higher education is to improve yoursdelf. If these men have no drive to do that, then they should just go into a trade or drive trucks and leave spots open for those who will do something with it


This is a pretty condescending and myopic viewpoint.

In one phrase you've:

1. Basically said that teaching PE isn't a worthwhile endeavor.
2. Said that these HIGH LEVEL ATHLETES have no drive to improve themselves.
3. People who work in trades are "less than" people that get a university education.
4. People that drive trucks are "less than" people that get a university education.

The "purpose" of going to a university is to prepare yourself for the vocation in which you'd like to spend your adult life working. For most of these athletes, their sport is that vocation. Many don't make it, and thats EXACTLY why universities should be setting them up to succeed in classes that actually apply to their chosen vocation as opposed to forcing them into classes they already don't want to go to.

For every athlete, their "core" classes should consist of something like this:

Public Speaking
Brand Management
Personal Finance

And other classes that are applicable to their actual lives if they do end up with careers in their sport. Then you have a few branches for them after they've completed their core classes, like:

Education (although, apparently teaching PE isn't worth it)
Nutrition
Physical Therapy
Sports Broadcasting
Coaching (I'd wager you don't think this is worth it, either)
Sports Marketing

You know, stuff that actually works hand-in-hand with the sports they're already doing as, basically, a full time job (and I can tell you, when I played division III football, not division one, It was about 6 hours a day. For division III).

There's no reason to set them up to fail, and there's no reason to shove them into classes they don't want to take. When you do, you end up with gak like this. Let them major in their sport, because I guarantee you in today's society that a Degree in Football Management from Ohio State would be far more valuable than an Art History degree.

You should really be ashamed of your comment. It's almost as disgusting at the fraud at UNC.

1. P.E. Is a Worthwhile endeavor. But we already have something for that, Sports Medicine and kinesiology, Not Majoring in football.
2: Yes, If they wished t improve themselves, they would realize just how little a chance they have at a career in the NFL. Football/Soccer/Ultimate Frisbee should be side activities that are meant to supplement, not replace higher.
3: Vocations are good, but you dont need a university for them, mostly a JC.
4: I never said that, you read into it. My dad and cousin where truck Drivers and they provided with that. But These Athletes are taking spots from those who could actually do something with them, go into a worthwhile field of Sociology, History, STEM or Journalism. But no, they take Paper Classes and spit on what Higher Learning is supposed to be about.

All those Classes yu mentioned? Can be done at a JC. you wouldnt need a University for it

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Leerstetten, Germany

 cincydooley wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And what would they be able to do with that? Teach P.E? The point of a higher education is to improve yoursdelf. If these men have no drive to do that, then they should just go into a trade or drive trucks and leave spots open for those who will do something with it


The "purpose" of going to a university is to prepare yourself for the vocation in which you'd like to spend your adult life working.


I will have to disagree there. The purpose of a university is to give you a comprehensive education including a basic understanding of liberal arts and sciences, a "jack of all trades" knowledge base, and then a concentrated knowledge base with an expansion of the liberal arts and sciences needed to assist you in your goals after graduation. If you major in "X" the point of a university is not to teach you how to be "X", it is to teach you a base set of knowledge on the topic of "X" and how to gain more knowledge regarding "X". The specialized knowledge together with the wide topic covered in core classes is what makes a university education valuable.

If you just want to learn a vocation, then there is always vocational school.

For most of these athletes, their sport is that vocation.


There are ~420,000 NCAA athletes.
There are ~1,696 NFL athletes.
There are ~450 NBA athletes.
There are ~850 MLB athletes.

0.7% of today's NCAA athletes will have their sport as their vocation. So claiming that for most of these guys their sport will be their vocation is simply wrong.

We can talk about it being their vocation RIGHT NOW, and that's a valid argument to have. And talking about how they are reimbursed (via pay, via scholarships, being allowed to profit from their own likeness and sign autographs and have endorsements, etc) is also perfectly valid. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that most of these athletes will make a living off their sport once they leave college.

Many don't make it, and thats EXACTLY why universities should be setting them up to succeed in classes that actually apply to their chosen vocation as opposed to forcing them into classes they already don't want to go to.


Yes, they should be treated exactly like every other college students. I might want to major in music and don't want to go learn about science, English, or math, but I'm still required to go there. Because if I graduate and I don't get a job in music, I still have a degree that included a basic well-rounded education that gave me a base set of knowledge and skills to work in other fields.

For every athlete, their "core" classes should consist of something like this:


Their core classes should be the same as they are for any other student in the university.

Public Speaking
Brand Management
Personal Finance


Those would be a great base for the core classes of a major, but not for the university core classes.

And other classes that are applicable to their actual lives if they do end up with careers in their sport. Then you have a few branches for them after they've completed their core classes, like:

Education (although, apparently teaching PE isn't worth it)
Nutrition
Physical Therapy
Sports Broadcasting
Coaching (I'd wager you don't think this is worth it, either)
Sports Marketing


Lot's of good ideas for specialized majors and minors in there.

You know, stuff that actually works hand-in-hand with the sports they're already doing as, basically, a full time job (and I can tell you, when I played division III football, not division one, It was about 6 hours a day. For division III).


Call it work study and pay you for those 6 hours, or give them scholarship money. The job you are doing in college won't be the job you are doing for the rest of your life.

There's no reason to set them up to fail, and there's no reason to shove them into classes they don't want to take. When you do, you end up with gak like this. Let them major in their sport, because I guarantee you in today's society that a Degree in Football Management from Ohio State would be far more valuable than an Art History degree.


That degree would be useless and worthless the way you want to set it up and it would be a giant insult to every other student at the university.

Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with a degree in whatever sport they want, but don't make the university dance around these student athletes just so that they can play sports with the hope that they will be part of the 1% that makes a living. Make it a real degree that follows the rules of the rest of the university. If you want to play sports, play sports. If you want a university education, get a university education. If you want both, get both. But don't argue that the university should change the rules just because you want to follow the same rules as everybody else. Going "They don't need core math classes because sports is just a silly argument.

If you want to play a sport and get a degree in something else as well then more power to you.

If you want to play a sport in college and get a degree in that sport then makes it follow the rest of the rules and make it an actual degree program that follows the rest of the rules:

- The same core general education requirements as the rest of the university.
- A major in "competitive sports" with a specialization of whatever sport you are playing.
- Minors that give you backup options.

So let's say that the University of Oklahoma makes a Bachelors of Competitive Athletics (Football) with a minor in Journalism (122 credits), it could look something like this:

University wide Core (44 credits):
19 hours of Communication
7 hours of Natural Science
6 hours of Social Science
12 hours of Humanities

Major for Competitive Athletics (30 credits):
Include stuff like "brand management, sports medicine, economics and finances, legal classes, public speaking, etc"

Major Specialization for Football (20 credits):
Include stuff like "History and organization of the NFL", "History of Football in the US", "Football leagues around the world", "how minor leagues and major leagues are set up", "evolution of plays", "officiating", "history of protective gear and developments for the future". Lots of room to either BS or to actually teach about Football and options besides the NFL and prepare students to either play football or work in any area that is related to football.

Minor or electives (28 units):
-Get your minor in sports journalism, PE, physical medicine, any other minor you might be interested in, or just take 28 units of BS classes like many people in many majors do.

There, now you have an actual real university degree that is useful to someone playing football without having to invalidate the concept of a university education.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Part of the problem IMO is not that athletes want to play sports and get a free University education in the process.

I think the problem is that Universities and the professional leagues have created a process where Universities are a free training and recruiting ground for the leagues, and that the athletes are stuck in a system that was designed with everyone in mind except their needs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 17:56:06


 
   
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I go to a high school in NC and many of the student athletes here want to go to UNC. I'm looking forward to what the teachers here say about this or if they say anything at all. It takes a while for news to get here because most students only watch the CNN student news (If teachers even play it) that's a day late, even though they play CNN in the cafeteria at lunch.

The fact that this happened is disgusting. A university is, if I'm not mistaken, supposed to be concerned primarily with education, and their sports program second. It isn't helping anyone if they let student athletes who aren't prepared to take real courses into the school, because that spot could be taken by someone who wants to take a class for a job that really benefits society.

I'm not saying that all student athletes do this, but clearly if they were willing to take classes that artificially kept them able to play instead of actually learn something useful they don't deserve to continue going there.

I agree that they should at least take classes that are related to their sport, because then they are capable of something outside of playing football or whatever. In addition to this however, they should also take classes that will allow them to do things that aren't at all related to sports in order to have some credibility in other fields.

When I consider which college I go to, this will make me consider UNC less, even if it is relatively close to where I live now and it's relatively inexpensive from the colleges near where I used to live. The fact that the college did this will make me feel that they are concerned more with their sports than my education.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/23 18:07:27


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You actually have a set of unrelated core classes at American Universities? When I go to Uni. to do a degree in Physics, all of my classes will be related to that, i.e. Maths and Physics lectures, with some Physics practicals.

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 -Shrike- wrote:
You actually have a set of unrelated core classes at American Universities? When I go to Uni. to do a degree in Physics, all of my classes will be related to that, i.e. Maths and Physics lectures, with some Physics practicals.


You aren't required to diversify even a bit from that?
   
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The Great State of Texas

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
That's disgusting.


Yeup. Pretty much.

This is, to me, a big reason these kids need to be allowed to major in their sport if they so choose.

There are only so many Aaron Crafts and Grant Hills in big time college athletics.
And what would they be able to do with that? Teach P.E? The point of a higher education is to improve yoursdelf. If these men have no drive to do that, then they should just go into a trade or drive trucks and leave spots open for those who will do something with it


Thats a pretty bigotted statewment there boyo.

Remember, your plumber is getting paid more than you are, and is proud fo that buttcrack. He's mooning the world!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2: Yes, If they wished t improve themselves, they would realize just how little a chance they have at a career in the NFL. Football/Soccer/Ultimate Frisbee should be side activities that are meant to supplement, not replace higher.

If thats the standard, you'd have to get rid of most of the Humanities programs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: I like your Major idea D-USA.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/23 18:10:38


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Im not saying that. Im saying that these boys need to wise up, know the opprotunity they have been given, or leave, make way for someone who will do something with the opprotunity. They can go on and do other things with their time, such bee a plumber or porn star, or Building inspecter.
Not waste hundreds of peoples time in a University.
Im just glad Im at a school that barely does the sports thing.

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Leerstetten, Germany

 -Shrike- wrote:
You actually have a set of unrelated core classes at American Universities? When I go to Uni. to do a degree in Physics, all of my classes will be related to that, i.e. Maths and Physics lectures, with some Physics practicals.


Most our graduate programs follow that practice, but the undergraduate (Bachelor level classes) all have a diversified base.
   
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 Frazzled wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2: Yes, If they wished t improve themselves, they would realize just how little a chance they have at a career in the NFL. Football/Soccer/Ultimate Frisbee should be side activities that are meant to supplement, not replace higher.

If thats the standard, you'd have to get rid of most of the Humanities programs.


Why What is wrong with Humanities? Alot of it is applicable in the real world. Football is not.

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Cincinnati, Ohio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Why What is wrong with Humanities? Alot of it is applicable in the real world. Football is not.


Said by someone that has never been any good at sports or played anything on a competitive level.
'
You're a fool if you don't think there are mountains of stuff that you learn through the act of being part of athletic team that is very applicable to "the real world."

 
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 -Shrike- wrote:
You actually have a set of unrelated core classes at American Universities? When I go to Uni. to do a degree in Physics, all of my classes will be related to that, i.e. Maths and Physics lectures, with some Physics practicals.


Wow, that's surprising.

Yeah, in the US undergrad degrees have a big chunk of basic things - english, math, philosphy, science, stuff like that.

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Yes, it is not like I did wrestling or Boxing.
Nope, I never did sports at all.
All I see is competitiveness taken to the stupid max and childish stuff done in the name of sports, like stealing a Mascot or vandelizing

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Stealing mascots is at least 60% of most professional sports.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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The other 40 is drug scandals, wife beating and adultery

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Well done.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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The Great State of Texas

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2: Yes, If they wished t improve themselves, they would realize just how little a chance they have at a career in the NFL. Football/Soccer/Ultimate Frisbee should be side activities that are meant to supplement, not replace higher.

If thats the standard, you'd have to get rid of most of the Humanities programs.


Why What is wrong with Humanities? Alot of it is applicable in the real world. Football is not.


HAHAHAHA wanting to better yourself doesn't mean working at Starbucks, which is what the vast majority end up doing because, outside of a very limited number of jobs in academia, the value is purely meh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 18:34:43


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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This Is Where the Fish Lives

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And what would they be able to do with that? Teach P.E? The point of a higher education is to improve yoursdelf. If these men have no drive to do that, then they should just go into a trade or drive trucks and leave spots open for those who will do something with it
There it is... The dumbest gak I've read all day.

As a tradesman (who comes from a long line of tradesmen), there is just so much wrong with that statement that I don't know where to begin. Your backtracking isn't helping you and neither is claiming that Cincy is "looking too much into it." Based on your various statements on this thread, as well as in others, I think your point was pretty clear.

However, I will say that plenty of college athletes that don't make in the majors to on to do something worthwhile with the education they receive. I think it's unfair to claim that they are taking spots in colleges from someone who will do something "more worthwhile."

 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
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If you don't apply yourself, which what I see a lot of humanities doing. But it's value is way more then football


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And what would they be able to do with that? Teach P.E? The point of a higher education is to improve yoursdelf. If these men have no drive to do that, then they should just go into a trade or drive trucks and leave spots open for those who will do something with it
There it is... The dumbest gak I've read all day.

As a tradesman (who comes from a long line of tradesmen), there is just so much wrong with that statement that I don't know where to begin. Your backtracking isn't helping you and neither is claiming that Cincy is "looking too much into it." Based on your various statements on this thread, as well as in others, I think your point was pretty clear.

However, I will say that plenty of college athletes that don't make in the majors to on to do something worthwhile with the education they receive. I think it's unfair to claim that they are taking spots in colleges from someone who will do something "more worthwhile."
I dont. If you are taking classes that are made so you don't fail, just so you can throw a ball, the new you are taking good spots away.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 18:38:57


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My opinion...sports shouldn't be part of undergraduate education AT ALL (other than Sports Management and stuff like that).

Use the various minor leagues for high school athletes with hopes of going pro.

I know this would force alot of kids out of going to college. But I think you should get into college because of academics and nothing to do with sports. The sad fact is that when a high school athlete gets an athletic scholarship, another, more worthy student academically does not get a scholarship.

   
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 Hordini wrote:
That's disgusting.



What's worse is, there was a lady.. I want to say she was a professor actually at UNC, who was commissioned, by the school to do just this exact sort of report, and IIRC they fired her and accused her of faking the results for "fame" as a "whistleblower" for academic fraud.


I've read articles about how, at FSU there were numerous football players making horrible anti-gay remarks, right in front of their gay professor... some even went so far as physical intimidation of professors in order to keep grades that would allow them to play.




I love college football, but I absolutely HATE that it has come to a level where, so many schools are completely comfortable with sacrificing academic integrity for a few more numbers in the W column of their sports' teams books. I know that this isn't just football (as UNC is demonstrably a basketball school), but I also know that there are still some "pure" sports out there within the university system... What is kind of sad though, is that those "pure" sports are those that either do not have scholarships, or are not viewed as Varsity athletic programs (such as rugby)
   
 
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