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I've heard lots of arguements for the Cursed Earth power being unable to stack... but it seems like even the same rules cited in these arguements clearly do allow you to stack Cursed Earth... and it even seems to me that we ALL ALREADY ABIDE BY THIS INTERPRETATION, without even realising it.

Lets say I have two heralds of tzeentch that have manifested Cursed Earth this turn, and inbetween them, a squad of 20 pink horrors. Lets also say that only half of the horrors are within 12" of herald a, while the other half are more than 12" away from herald a, but still within 12" of herald b.

So do all of my 20 horrors still get +1 to their invuln save?

I think we'd all say that YES they do, even though the rules specifically state "The benifits of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per UNIT, once per turn."

Once per unit.

So shouldn't only half the horrors get a 4++ save, either the ones in range of HERALD A OR B AND NOT BOTH? Afterall, herald a's blessing is already affecting half the models in the UNIT already, and that same UNIT can only benifit from one instance of a particular blessing per turn, right?

The reason none of us play this way is because IT IS NOT THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES.

Reading through the rules for Cursed Earth clears things right up IMO. It clearly states that the target of the blessing is ONLY the caster, he is the ONLY unit that recieves ANY BENIFIT AT ALL from Cursed Earth. The benifit of that power is that the target unit (in this case the psyker and ONLY the psyker) recieves an aura giving all friendly models that are daemons a bonus to saves, and the option to be automatically arrive on target when deepstriking.

So:
ONLY THE PSYKER is targeted by Cursed Earth, he is the only unit, in fact the ONLY MODEL IN YOUR ARMY THAT RECIEVES ANY BENIFIT from this blessing. Units that contain models within 12" of the psyker ARE NOT RECIEVING THE BENIFIT OF CURSED EARTH, the bonus to their invuln saves is incidental, and NOT a benifit of Cursed Earth. They have not been targeted by any blessings, and are NOT currently under the affect of any blessings REGARDLESS of the fact that they are recieving bonuses to their saves, the effect does not come from being blessed by Cursed Earth, it is a non-specific bonus they are getting from being within 12" of the psyker that IS recieving the benefit. THE RULES FOR CURSED EARTH STATE THIS VERY CLEARLY, AND SPECIFICALLY.

If we choose to interpret the phrase in the main rulebook about recieving the benefit of blessings in the way arguements against the ability of Cursed Earth to stack suggest, then ONLY HALF of the horrors in the above example could recieve the benifits of Cursed Earth. Because even if only 1 model was in range of a psyker that casted Cursed Earth it's UNIT would be recieving the benifits of Cursed Earth, and NO OTHER INSTANCES of the same blessing from a different psyker could affect its UNIT.

UNLESS YOU PLAY THIS WAY, YOU ARE CONCEDING THAT CURSED EARTH DOES IN FACT STACK.

Does that sound concise, non contradictory and perfectly unambiguous to anyone else?

Love to hear you opinion if you have one, or if you think this arguement makes sense after reading it as this comes up alot at the table. If you have an issue with this interpretation, please BE SPECIFIC as we'll probably be referring to the same exact rules to make different arguements. Also please tell me how my unit of 20 horrors in the example can still all get a bonus to their invuln saves under your inerpretation of the rules (or if you dont think they should).

Let me know what you think, sorry for the caps, tried to make all my key points big and easy to read through in sequence for a summary.

What psychic spell is Scorched Earth? Do you mean Cursed Earth?

It's debatable on whether it stacks, multiple people though have argued it back and forth. On one hand the spell itself states unequivocally that it stacks with other modifiers. Another Cursed Earth giving a +1 would in fact be another modifier. That's the basic argument for the side that states it stacks.

The other side is the side that states that you cannot gain the benefit of more than one blessing on a unit.

.... Derp

Sorry my bad, referring to "Cursed Earth" #1 on Malefic Daemonology

It states pretty clearly that any unit would receive the blessing of Cursed Earth so the number of models of the unit within range of Cursed Earth is irrelevant.

Hollismason wrote:
It states pretty clearly that any unit would receive the blessing of Cursed Earth so the number of models of the unit within range of Cursed Earth is irrelevant.

Lets look at some blessings from the rulebook for a basis. So look at Endurance in biomancy or Hammerhand in sanctic. These blessings both target the psyker AND his unit, so even if I have two IC psykers that know Hammerhand in the unit, I can't stack it, as it explicitly says the unit gets some benefit from the blessing, and you can't get the same benifit more than once.

Then, there are powers like Iron Arm in biomancy, that tsrget ONLY the psyker and give ONLY him some benefit.

Cursed Earth is exactly like Iron Arm, it benefits only the psyker, and in the case of Cursed Earth the "Aura" the psyker recieves is no different than the bonus S and T from Iron Arm, it's a bonus that only effects the psyker. Even though this benifit has an effect on troops around him, the psyker is still the only one under the effects of Cursed Earth.


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Hollismason wrote:
It states pretty clearly that any unit would receive the blessing of Cursed Earth so the number of models of the unit within range of Cursed Earth is irrelevant.

And Cursed Earth states ALL MODELS within 12" not ALL UNITS

It's still the same blessing and as you have pointed out, a unit can only receive the benefits of a specific blessing once per turn - so no it doesn't stack.

Cursed Earth manifested by Psyker A and Cursed Earth manifested by Psyker B is still 'Cursed Earth'.

The benefits of the power isn't the range of the blessing or 'aura' as you have termed, it's the effect itself (the +1 to the invulnerable save and DS without Scatter).

BRB Blessings wrote:The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative.

Cursed Earth is indeed a Blessing.

If a model is getting its Invulnerable save increased, then it's getting the benefit of a blessing.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's still the same blessing and as you have pointed out, a unit can only receive the benefits of a specific blessing once per turn - so no it doesn't stack.

Cursed Earth manifested by Psyker A and Cursed Earth manifested by Psyker B is still 'Cursed Earth'.

The benefits of the power isn't the range of the blessing or 'aura' as you have termed, it's the effect itself (the +1 to the invulnerable save and DS without Scatter).

Again, just like Iron Arm Cursed Earth targets only the psyker. That psyker can't recieve the benefits of another Cursed Earth (whose sole effect is giving him an "Aura") because the rules say you can only benefit from a blessing once per turn (even when cast by different psykers).

But Cursed Earth effects ONLY the psyker, models can still benefit from the effects from 2 or more instances of that aura, because the aura itself is the effect granted by the blessing, not the bonuses models get inside it.

If Cursed Earth said it targeted "the psyker and all models within 12" I'd be inclined to agree with you, but it doesn't. It targets only the psyker, the +1 to invuln saves models within 12" of him recieve is not due to them getting the effect of the blessing, as the actual effect is the "aura" the psyker recieves.

sonoftzeentch wrote:
But Cursed Earth effects ONLY the psyker,

No, it only targets the Psyker. It very clearly effects other models, you can tell because their save is increased.

models can still benefit from 2 or more instances of that aura, because it doesn't target them.

No, because they have the benefit of one blessing already.

There is simply no way you can receive a +1 bonus to an invulnerable save and NOT call it a benefit.

 grendel083 wrote:

sonoftzeentch wrote:
But Cursed Earth effects ONLY the psyker,

No, it only targets the Psyker. It very clearly effects other models, you can tell because their save is increased.

models can still benefit from 2 or more instances of that aura, because it doesn't target them.

No, because they have the benefit of one blessing already.

There is simply no way you can receive a +1 bonus to an invulnerable save and NOT call it a benefit.

As I've said several times the only actual effect of Cursed Earth is to give the the psyker an "aura".

That's it.

That's the only effect the blessing has. The bonuses models inside the aura recieve ARE NOT the result of them being affected by a blessing, they are recieving a bonus because THE PSYKER is under the effects of a blessing.

Does that make any more sense?

sonoftzeentch wrote:
As I've said several times the only actual effect of Cursed Earth is to give the the psyker an "aura".

That's it.

That's the only effect the blessing has. The bonuses models inside the aura recieve ARE NOT the result of them being affected by a blessing, they are recieving a bonus because THE PSYKER is under the effects of a blessing.

Does that make any more sense?

Oh I understand what you're saying. It's just wrong. Very wrong.

There is no such rule as "giving the Psyker an aura". That's made up I'm afraid.

A bonus because the Psyker is under the effects of a blessing? That's called a benefit.

They receive a bonus as a direct benefit from the blessing. You can try and call it something else, but it's very much a benefit of the blessing.

sonoftzeentch wrote:
As I've said several times the only actual effect of Cursed Earth is to give the the psyker an "aura".

That's it.

That's the only effect the blessing has. The bonuses models inside the aura recieve ARE NOT the result of them being affected by a blessing, they are recieving a bonus because THE PSYKER is under the effects of a blessing.

Does that make any more sense?

No, because they clearly are being affected by a Blessing. The Blessing has a range of 12" from the Psyker - I fail to see how one can say they aren't affected by a Blessing when they have a +1 modifier to the invulnerable save.

The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative

This is from the Blessing rule in the Psychic Phase part of the rulebook. Cursed Earth cast by Herald 1 is the same blessing than the Cursed Earth cast by Herald 2. So no, you cannot stack Cursed Earth on itself.

 grendel083 wrote:

sonoftzeentch wrote:
As I've said several times the only actual effect of Cursed Earth is to give the the psyker an "aura".

That's it.

That's the only effect the blessing has. The bonuses models inside the aura recieve ARE NOT the result of them being affected by a blessing, they are recieving a bonus because THE PSYKER is under the effects of a blessing.

Does that make any more sense?

Oh I understand what you're saying. It's just wrong. Very wrong.

There is no such rule as "giving the Psyker an aura". That's made up I'm afraid.

A bonus because the Psyker is under the effects of a blessing? That's called a benefit.

They receive a bonus as a direct benefit from the blessing. You can try and call it something else, but it's very much a benefit of the blessing.

Alright so lets say it is totally wrong. What about the example in my first post?

So if I have 2 psykers that cast Cursed Earth and a unit of 20 pink horrors, and if 10 models in that unit are only within range of psyker A, and the other 10 models are only within range of psyker B, does the whole unit get +1 to their saves or only one of the groups of 10 models?

Since the effect granted by Cursed Earth (the "aura") cares about all MODELS within it and not UNITS, isn't the UNIT in this example recieving 2 instances of Cursed Earth (which would be illegal)?

Wouldn't only one group of 10 models recieve the +1 to their saves? (since if the other group also recieves the bonus, their UNIT would be under the effect of the same blessing twice)

I know my opponents think they should all get the bonus, yet they don't realise the same logic also says that it in fact, should stack. (you just cant have one psyker generating 2 Cursed Earth "auras"

sonoftzeentch wrote:
Alright so lets say it is totally wrong. What about the example in my first post?

So if I have 2 psykers that cast Cursed Earth and a unit of 20 pink horrors, and if 10 models in that unit are only within range of psyker A, and the other 10 models are only within range of psyker B, do they all get +1 to their saves or only one of the groups of 10?

Since the effect granted by Cursed Earth (the "aura") cares about all MODELS within it and not UNITS, isn't the UNIT in this example recieving 2 instances of Cursed Earth (which would be illegal)?

Wouldn't only one group of 10 models recieve the +1 to their saves? (since if the other group also recieves the bonus, their UNIT would be under the effect of the same blessing twice)

I know my opponents think they should all get the bonus, yet they don't realise the same logic also says that it in fact, should stack. (you just cant have one psyker generating 2 Cursed Earth "auras"

In that example, the Psyker that manifested Cursed Earth first would give the benefit of Cursed Earth to the 10 models within its range, due to being manifested and applied to the Pink Horrors first. The Psyker that manifested Cursed Earth second would have no affect on the invulnerable save on the models in that Pink Horror unit within its range, since that unit is already receiving the benefits of Cursed Earth.

(side note, you can have two Psykers generating two "auras" you could have 1000 Psykers with 1000 "auras", that's legal. But you only get the benefits of that "aura" for a unit once)

If one model in the unit has been given a bonus, then has the unit not benefited?
It has. If only slightly.

So only the first blessing would have an effect. To apply the second blessing to the other half of the models would mean the unit as a whole was benefitting from 2 blessings. And there's a restriction on that.

 grendel083 wrote:
If one model in the unit has been given a bonus, then has the unit not benefited?

So then in the example, only 10 of the 20 horrors in the unit could recieve a +1 save benefit from Cursed Earth, since the other 10 would have to be effected by a different Cursed Earth cast by another psyker, and this would mean their UNIT was recieving the effects of the same blessing twice?


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sonoftzeentch wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
If one model in the unit has been given a bonus, then has the unit not benefited?

So then in the example, only 10 of the 20 horrors in the unit could recieve a +1 save benefit from Cursed Earth, since the other 10 would have to be effected by a different Cursed Earth cast by another psyker, and this would mean their UNIT was recieving the effects of the same blessing twice?

In the corse of a game, people often intuitively allow all 20 horrors in the example to recieve a +1 bonus. It just seams to make sense.

When your in a setting like this, where your stake is already placed it's a little more intuitive to just argue for your inital claims with whatever's at hand than to accede to basic common sense (which is after all often completely wrong).

My point though is that in most of my games people accept the ruling that all 20 models in the unit get the save, without so much as the batting of an eye or any arguememt, it just "makes sense" and no one thinks anything of it.

However when it comes to stacking +1 invulns some people (understandably) have much more to say.

However I can't find anything in the rules that says it shouldn't. Everyone says that a unit can't get more than one instance of a blessing, and I agree, it's right there in the rules section, but stacking the saves in thus way ISN'T doing that. People intuitively agree with this when they allow the whole unit to get the +1 bonus with no questions raised. And when they are raised, all of the specific rules about what constitutes a benefit of a blessing, what the effects of a blessing actually are, who "gets" them etc. in both the rules for blessings and the description of Cursed Earth serm to agree with their initial intuitive analysis (which would mean the bonus to saves would stack).

Please read the rules on Cursed Earth as they are writen and tell me what specifically what it's actual "benefit" is, and who "gets" the benefit.


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This just needs to be faq'ed....

The rules as they are written seem to say that Cursed Earth is exactly like Iron Arm or Precognition. Just because the effect is something other than +3 S and T or rerolling doesn't change the fact that this power is targeting and placing an effect ONLY on the psyker.

I can see GW writting it this way because they inteded it to be understood as written.... but I can also see them writting it because they are sometimes dumbf#cks...

So yeah faq it already GW.

sonoftzeentch wrote:

So then in the example, only 10 of the 20 horrors in the unit could recieve a +1 save benefit from Cursed Earth, since the other 10 would have to be effected by a different Cursed Earth cast by another psyker, and this would mean their UNIT was recieving the effects of the same blessing twice?

No. The benefit is gained when the model makes a saving throw. It has no other effect at any other time.

In the corse of a game, people often intuitively allow all 20 horrors in the example to recieve a +1 bonus. It just seams to make sense.

Should they need to make saving throws and are in range of a CE source then they will.

However I can't find anything in the rules that says it shouldn't. Everyone says that a unit can't get more than one instance of a blessing, and I agree, it's right there in the rules section, but stacking the saves in thus way ISN'T doing that.

It clearly is.

Please read the rules on Cursed Earth as they are writen and tell me what specifically what it's actual "benefit" is, and who "gets" the benefit.

The model gets a +1 bonus to their save, when they make a save.

A stronger argument would be for the fact that it explicitly states that all other modifiers, another Cursed Earth would in fact be another other modifier.

Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker.

And that's it.

Anything else, such as the effects of Cursed Earth on the units around the psyker is not a blessing.

Why ? Because a blessing is a spell that you have to cast.

Do you cast the Cursed Earth Aura effect ? no you don't.

What do you cast ? A blessing that gives Cursed Earth Aura to the Psyker.



Can two disc tzeralds in the same screamerstar benefit from one Cursed Earth each ? no.

The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative

The benefit of Cursed Earth can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative.

It seems to me that if you cast it with two tzeralds, you end up with the Cursed Earth Aura being gained twice for that unit, once on each tzerald.

However, if you had a Tzerald in another screamer unit just behind, you could cast Cursed Earth with him, and all models within 12" of both Tzeralds would be affected by the Cursed Earth Aura twice.


Does the effect of the aura stack ?

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save.

Is Cursed Earth part of "any other modifiers" ?

I don't know, there's a word in there, "other", that could go against that interpretation.

morgoth wrote:
Anything else, such as the effects of Cursed Earth on the units around the psyker is not a blessing.

So it's the effect of a blessing, correct?
And that effect is a benefit?

So the unit has gained the benefit of a Blessing, correct?

The restriction isn't on blessings, it's on the benefit of blessings. And the unit without doubt has benefitted from the blessing.

 grendel083 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Anything else, such as the effects of Cursed Earth on the units around the psyker is not a blessing.

So it's the effect of a blessing, correct?
And that effect is a benefit?

So the unit has gained the benefit of a Blessing, correct?

The restriction isn't on blessings, it's on the benefit of blessings. And the unit without doubt has benefitted from the blessing.

The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative

Blessing = Spell ( Benefit -> Target )

That's what they mean by benefit, so it's what applies to the target.




Let me re-phrase what is written so you can better see where your wording differs from the original meaning:

The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative

The benefit of any one particular blessing.

What is that ?

It's what you get from a blessing.

What do you get from a blessing ?

+1S, AP2 attacks, ignores cover, or cursed earth aura.

Who gets something from a blessing ?

The target of the blessing.



That's the benefit of the blessing they are talking about.


If you use the word "benefitting" as you do, then when I boost a Tau unit with a marker light, it would get benefit from that, which would make more markerlight counters, which would benefit the rest of the army, and by your logic and words, the prescience/guide would have benefitted the whole army.

Which is not what they mean by these words.

if the model has anything changed about its statline from the power it is affected by the power.

cursed earth 100% Rules as Written is affecting the unit(s) with an ongoing blessing/effect.

Benefit =\= Target

The model has had its invulnerable save increased as a direct result of a Blessing being cast. It is a direct benefit.

Please explain to me why the sentence.

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save.

Does not in fact allow Cursed Earth to stack with itself.

Hollismason wrote:
Please explain to me why the sentence.

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save.

Does not in fact allow Cursed Earth to stack with itself.

There are other modifers to Invulnerable saves.
There's a book I believe? Also Warp Chart? Marks?

What it doesn't say, is that overrides the restriction on gaining the benefit of one particular Blessing more than once.

Here's the actual blessing rule

Blessings grant extra abilities to the Psyker’s allies, such as characteristic boosts or additional special rules. Blessings target one or more friendly units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker’s next Psychic phase. Blessings can affect units that are locked in close combat and can affect the Psyker himself. The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative. Unless otherwise stated, blessings cannot modify characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership).


Specific Rules override general rules, this is how the rules of the game function. You don't need to be told this, it's in the basic rules and interpretation and is a general rule of the game of Warhammer 40k that specific rules override general rules.

It's a general rule that blessings of the same type do not stack, but in fact there are psychic powers that are cumulative that specifically state in them that they are in fact cumulutive overriding the basic psychic rule that blessings do not stack.

Please explain to me how another Cursed Earth is not in fact a other modifier.

Hollismason wrote:
Please explain to me why the sentence.

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save.

Does not in fact allow Cursed Earth to stack with itself.

Because Cursed Earth does not specifically state that it can stack with other instances of Cursed Earth.

 grendel083 wrote:
Benefit =\= Target

The model has had its invulnerable save increased as a direct result of a Blessing being cast. It is a direct benefit.

Re-read my post, everything I wrote there is also an answer to your current misunderstanding. Thanks.

Every Blessing is a Spell that applies a Benefit on a Target. That's what I wrote, that's why your liberal use of the word benefit does not apply.

That's also why the whole Tau army does not "benefit" from casting Prescience on Tau MarkerLight Drones, even though they do in fact get an improvement from that.


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Hollismason wrote:
Please explain to me why the sentence.

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save.

Does not in fact allow Cursed Earth to stack with itself.

There is at least one way for this to not allow Cursed Earth to stack:

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save

"any other modifiers" ?

other than what ?

Other than Cursed Earth.

morgoth wrote:
Re-read my post, everything I wrote there is also an answer to your current misunderstanding. Thanks.

It's a bit rude to state I don't read or understand simply because I disagree with you.

Every Blessing is a Spell that applies a Benefit on a Target. That's what I wrote, that's why your liberal use of the word benefit does not apply.

Based on what? My use of the word doesn't apply because you wrote different?
It applys the benefit to more than just the target. The spell clearly states than models within 12" are also recieving a benefit.
Please state a rule that says the benefit is ONLY applied to the target, and that other models mentioned in the description are not benefitting. Page number will suffice.

That's also why the whole Tau army does not "benefit" from casting Prescience on Tau MarkerLight Drones, even though they do in fact get an improvement from that.

That is a very (very) indirect benefit. You can try and claim that Prescience can only be cast once as it benefits the whole army. Great, you'll prove blessings are broken at most, what you won't do with that approach is prove that a model that is directly effected by a blessing (when I say directly, I mean it's right there in the powers rules: Models with 12") is not benefiting.

The models are mentioned right there in the power description. They are given a bonus. This is quite litterally benefitting.