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if someone asked you what blessings were causing a models save to be altered.

and you said:

"cursed earth, and cursed earth" they would obviously be the same thing modifying the same state on the same model, which is specifically not allowed.

blaktoof wrote:
if someone asked you what blessings were causing a models save to be altered.

and you said:

"cursed earth, and cursed earth" they would obviously be the same thing modifying the same state on the same model, which is specifically not allowed.

That's not what the rules say.

The rules say that a unit may only benefit once from a blessing.

Blessings are Spells that give a Benefit to a Target.

The Cursed Earth Blessing is a Spell that gives a Cursed Earth Aura to the Psyker who casts it.


You are wrongly assuming that the units benefiting from Cursed Earth Aura benefit from the Cursed Earth Blessing, which they couldn't since it only targets the Psyker casting it.

morgoth wrote:
Blessings are Spells that give a Benefit to a Target.

You of course have a rule that proves this?
That a benefit ONLY applies to the target?

 Frozocrone wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Please explain to me why the sentence.

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save.

Does not in fact allow Cursed Earth to stack with itself.

Because Cursed Earth does not specifically state that it can stack with other instances of Cursed Earth.

What is the semantic definition of any

Hollismason wrote:
What is the semantic definition of any

Any other.
Focusing on one word out of context can change the meaning of anything.

"any other modifiers" is very different to implying it can stack with any modifiers, including itself, and overrides restrictions on those it normally can't stack with.

It's just bad grammar as they put the word any before the word other. I'm not sure on British Grammar but that would include other Cursed Earths because it states any.

You have a blue car, you can also pick any other car to have. You have a choice of a blue , red, purple car.

You can pick the blue car. That sentence doesn't disallow the picking of a blue car. If it said any other except

The phrase any other does not provide a exception.

Hollismason wrote:
The phrase any other does not provide a exception.

The rules on blessings however do.

To continue your example, the choice of blue, red and purple cars.

You cannot choose two the same colour.
You choose a blue car, you can also pick any other car to have.

What's your second choice?

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daremon's invulnerable save.

This (the Cursed Earth Aura's bonus to invulnerable save) is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon's invulnerable save.

Clearly, any other means any other than the Cursed Earth Aura's bonus.

There is no bad grammar and there is no doubt in my mind that's what it means in English.

morgoth wrote:
This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daremon's invulnerable save.

This (the Cursed Earth Aura's bonus to invulnerable save) is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon's invulnerable save.

This "Cursed Earth Aura" bonus is something you've made up and is not part of the rule.

Please provide a rule proving:
1). Only the Target counts as having a benefit
2). That an aura bonus exists, that doesn't count as a blessing.

These are two fabrication you've invented to make your theory work. Neither exist, neither are part of any rule. If you have to invent rules like "aura" and "only the target Counts as benefiting" (no rule says that. Ever) then it's a big indication that your theory is wrong.
Models within 12" have a bonus to their inv save. This is a benefit of the blessing. It's as simple as that.

Where does this bonus to their inv save come from? The blessing.
If you want to say "cursed earth aura" which for some magically reason doesn't count as the blessing, then prove that such a thing exists. Where's the rule?

If you wish to persist with this theory, then as per the forum rules, prove it. Cite these rules.

Blessings grant extra abilities to the Psyker’s allies, such as characteristic boosts or additional special rules. Blessings target one or more friendly units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker’s next Psychic phase. Blessings can affect units that are locked in close combat and can affect the Psyker himself. The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative. Unless otherwise stated, blessings cannot modify characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership).

Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.

Cursed Earth is a blessing that grants additional special rules to the Psyker, who is the only target of the blessing.

The benefit of the Cursed Earth blessing is the following additional special rule: "Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker."


"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative."

By this sentence, we can see that there is only one benefit to any one particular blessing, which in this case is one special rule with two different effects.

morgoth wrote:
Cursed Earth is a blessing that grants additional special rules to the Psyker, who is the only target of the blessing.

What rule states that these rules (note: no special rules are granted by cursed earth) are seperate from the blessing? That they come from the Psyker and don't count as being from the blessing?
None. No rule at all.
This whole idea that it comes from an aura of the Psyker is a complete fabrication. Has no rules support. Is wrong.
Just because the Psyker is the only target, doesn't mean it's the only one that can benefit. Unless you have a rule that says otherwise?

By this sentence, we can see that there is only one benefit to any one particular blessing, which in this case is one special rule with two different effects.

No we can't see, because it doesn't say that. That sentence does not say there is only one benefit. Another fabrication.

Has the unit gained a bonus to their inv save? Yes. It has benefitted. It gained an advantage, that's what benefit means.
Where did this benefit come from? The Blessing that targeted a nearby model.

There's no "aura" that doesn't count as the blessing. That's a complete fabrication. Does not exist, and has zero rules support.

 grendel083 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The phrase any other does not provide a exception.

The rules on blessings however do.

To continue your example, the choice of blue, red and purple cars.

You cannot choose two the same colour.
You choose a blue car, you can also pick any other car to have.

What's your second choice?

I've already stated that the wording is stating it stacks with itself, there are in fact maledictions that stack with themselves. Are you now claiming that those maledictions do not stack with themselves because of the blessings and malediction rules?

It doesn't follow the blessing rule as it provides an exception to that rule itself which is allowed with in the rules and stated multiple times that some times special rules or whatever will give permission to not obey specific rules in the book.

Hollismason wrote:
I've already stated that the wording is stating it stacks with itself,

I know you've stated it. The power in question however doesn't.

It stacks with any other modifiers (note other, as in not this one, but other ones). No where does it state it stacks with itself.

there are in fact maledictions that stack with themselves. Are you now claiming that those maledictions do not stack with themselves because of the blessings and malediction rules?

Maledictions?
We're discussing a Blessing. They have different rules. Why would the wording of a Malediction matter?

But I'll give you an example of one of those Maledictions anyway, just to demonstrate. Let's look at "Gift of Contagion"
From the power: "The effects of multiple Gifts of Contagion are cumulative"

You see how it specifically states it stacks with other castings of itself?

Cursed Earth does not have anything like that in its description. Nothing to override the restriction placed on the Blessings rule.

You see the difference? How specific permission is granted in one but not the other?

It doesn't follow the blessing rule as it provides an exception to that rule itself which is allowed with in the rules and stated multiple times that some times special rules or whatever will give permission to not obey specific rules in the book.

Exactly. Cursed Earth does not give permission to override the restriction in the blessing rules.

Gif of Contagion does.

By stating any it in fact does.

Hollismason wrote:
By stating any it in fact does.

You're taking a single word out of context.

"any other modifiers" is what it actually says.

You're reading it as "any modifiers, no matter the source and overriding all restrictions that might be present". This isn't the same thing at all.

Per your own example, I've shown in a malediction, an example of how a restriction is specifically overriden. Cursed Earth does not contain similar text, does it?

Does it say "multiple castings of Cursed Earth are cumulative"? Or similar?
No, it doesn't. It is lacking specific permission to override the restriction placed on Blessings.

Hollismason wrote:
By stating any it in fact does.

What it does not state, however, is the specific words 'including Cursed Earth'. By omitting these words, the power will not overrule the rules of Blessing; 'the benefits of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn".

Specific beats general - Cursed Earth is not specific enough to overrule the general rules of Blessings.

Any other modifiers would actually include other Cursed Earth modifiers because there is not a exception made.

It is specific, it specifically states any other or all other, or however you want to interpret any but Any specifically means ANY other.

Another Cursed Earth would be included in the phrase any other because there is not a exception made to the specific.

It most certainly overrides the basic blessing rule as it specifically states any other.

I mean you are literally arguing with me about grammar, I've already stated why it's poorly written as to be interpreted this way.

Do I understand what they intended? Yes, they intended it not to stack but by not providing a exception to other Cursed Earths, then they allowed it to stack.

Hollismason wrote:
Any other modifiers would actually include other Cursed Earth modifiers because there is not a exception made.

But there is an exception. There is a restriction in the Blessings rules. Does this specifically overrride this restriction?
I've given an example on what a specific exception to a restriction looks like. Would you like more? If so how many?
How about the Assault Vehicle special rule?
"Passengers disembarking from... can charge on the turn they do so"
See how this specifically overrides the restriction on charging after disembarking?

Specific permission is not a vague term like "any other modifiers" it's specific.

It is specific, it specifically states any other or all other, or however you want to interpret any but Any specifically means ANY other.

No, it means "Any other modifers". Doesn't mean "ANY and ALL modifers, overriding any restrictions they might have"

Another Cursed Earth would be included in the phrase any other

Yes it would, unless that already had an restriction placed on it.

because there is not a exception made to the specific.

But there is an exception to the same Blessing stacking. It's in the rules for Blessings.

It most certainly overrides the basic blessing rule as it specifically states any other.

"any other" is not specific. "including Curesed Earth" would be specific. You've had examples of Specific permission already. They are specific, not vague.

I mean you are literally arguing with me about grammar,

Grammer is what gives meaning to words. You take a single word out of context it changes the meaning. Grammer is VERY important.

Do I understand what they intended? Yes, they intended it not to stack but by not providing a exception to other Cursed Earths, then they allowed it to stack.

With no specific exception, no it doesn't. But at least you're not inventing weird rules like "auras" and sticking to something in the book

It's not poorly written, it's perfectly clear.

Other is defined as something which is different than what was originally specified or implied. Cursed Earth would not be an 'other' modifer - that would belong to Grimore, Forewarning, etc..Rules and Wargear that increase the invulnerable save but are not named 'Cursed Earth'.

It's even more clear when context is taken into account and you incorporate the rules of Blessings that state a particular blessing (in this case Cursed Earth) can not stack with other instances of Cursed Earth.

As Cursed Earth is a blessing, it follows all the rules for Blessings, unless Cursed Earth specifically states that Cursed Earth can stack with itself.

Which it inadvertently does, you'd actually be correct if it said " any other modifiers except Cursed Earth.."

It's poor grammar and unclear because of that reason. Without the exception it's unclear.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's not poorly written, it's perfectly clear.

Other is defined as something which is different than what was originally specified or implied. Cursed Earth would not be an 'other' modifer - that would belong to Grimore, Forewarning, etc..Rules and Wargear that increase the invulnerable save but are not named 'Cursed Earth'.

It's even more clear when context is taken into account and you incorporate the rules of Blessings that state a particular blessing (in this case Cursed Earth) can not stack with other instances of Cursed Earth.

As Cursed Earth is a blessing, it follows all the rules for Blessings, unless Cursed Earth specifically states that Cursed Earth can stack with itself.

Stacking with itself, in the case of Cursed Earth, would mean that a single Psyker would receive the ability to improve the invulnerable save of models within 12" twice.

It's really critical when discussing this matter to understand that Cursed Earth is a Blessing that gives the caster one ability.

That ability *then* affects all units within 12", for a full turn.


The blessing does not directly affect the units within 12".

The effect of the blessing, which cannot stack, is to give the Psyker the two abilities that affect units within 12".

morgoth wrote:
It's really critical when discussing this matter to understand that Cursed Earth is a Blessing that gives the caster one ability.

Wrong. No such rule says this.
Unless you'd like to supply one?
You've been asked to cite these rules several times now.

That ability *then* affects all units within 12", for a full turn.

Again wrong.
Do you have a rule that states this?

The blessing does not directly affect the units within 12".

Absolutely 100% wrong! The blessing says right there in it's rules that it affects them.
If you have a rule that states otherwise, please cite it.

The effect of the blessing, which cannot stack, is to give the Psyker the two abilities that affect units within 12".

Again no rule states this.
You have to invent rules just to make this wild theory work.

Morgoth you'd be correct if it stated targets, the rules don't care if a model is targeted by a blessing or not, it only cares if it is affected.

Hollismason wrote:
Morgoth you'd be correct if it stated targets, the rules don't care if a model is targeted by a blessing or not, it only cares if it is affected.

That's not what it says.

Blessings grant extra abilities to the Psyker’s allies, such as characteristic boosts or additional special rules. Blessings target one or more friendly units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker’s next Psychic phase. Blessings can affect units that are locked in close combat and can affect the Psyker himself. The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative. Unless otherwise stated, blessings cannot modify characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership).

The only sentence that talks about stacking is:

The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative.

The benefit of a blessing is +1S, Ignores Cover or "every unit within 12" of the psyker ...".

It is gained by the target and the target only.

morgoth wrote:
It is gained by the target and the target only.

Prove it. Cite the rule.

Yeah again that doesn't say target anywhere in it. It only cares if the unit gains a benefit.If you had a blessing that had a Table Wide effect, and it affected every unit on the table, you'd still only be able to gain it once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean here's a check list with yes / no.

Is the blessing successfully cast?

If NO STOP

If Yes, continue

Is there a model from a unit within 12 inches?

If NO STOP

If Yes continue

Is it a Daemon ?

If NO STOP

If Yes, continue

Is it already affected by another blessing of the same name?

If No, it gains +1 to it's Save.

If Yes, it does not get a +1 benefit to it's save.

This is as clear as it get's without drawing you a physical picture.

Hollismason wrote:
This is as clear as it get's without drawing you a physical picture.

It really is as simple as that.

This idea of morgoth's that the Target is the only one that counts as getting a benefit has no rules support at all. It's not in the rulebook.
I ask for it to be backed up, to prove this rule exists, but nothing has been presented.

Now the forum rules require you to back up a statement, prove that it is correct with rules support. This is partly because proving that a rule does NOT exisit, is a huge undertaking that involves going throught the book paragraph by paragraph. So no one does it.

Today is different.

Thanks to the wonders of Technology (and an interactive iBook edition of the rules), I will prove that "Only the target counts as gaining the benefit" is false.

The word "Benefit" apears in the rulebook a grand total of 38 times:
3 from the background fluff section. These are not relevent.
4 from the Psychic section - we'll look at these in a minute.
2 from Shooting, both concerning saves, so not relevent.
1 from assault. Additonal hand weapons. Nope.
2 from Unit types. Jetbikes and Crew? No.
1 from Vehicles. Cover saves.
18 from Choosing your army, mostly concerning Command Benefits, bit with Warlord Traits.
7 from Special Rules. Not much here, although there is a part about "you can't gain the Benefit of a special rule more than once. Hang on, didn't Morgoth's theory state the bonus was from a Special Rule, instead of the Blessing? One given to the Psyker? Another nail in the coffin.

Now of those, only 4 are in reference to the Psychic Phase.
Now 2 of those are concerning Psychic Focus, and loosing it's benefit. So we can discount those.

That leaves 2, and they're both from the same sentence: "The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative."

So there we have it. Every single use of the word benefit/benefits in the entire BRB, scrutanised.

So when I say this rule is nowhere in the rulebook, i mean it, and have proof!

I agree with Grend/Hol; Source is irrelevant in relation to gaining the benefit or suffering the penalties of a special rule or in this case - a blessing, only that they are or are not gaining the benefit of the special rule or blessing.

The thing is, the units do not gain the benefit, proof is that if you move them away they don't have it anymore.
If the Psyker dies ? they lose the effect.

Meaning, they never gained "The benefit" of that Blessing in the first place.

The only model gaining "The benefit" from the blessing is the Psyker, luckily it's a benefit that lets him boost his friends.


Of course the source is relevant, because if you consider the save improvement to be the benefit granted by the blessing, then it abides by the blessing stacking rules.

Whereas if you read the book correctly, it's granted by the benefit of the blessing that the Psyker holds, and therefore follows its own rules with regards to stacking.

And then, the stacking is limited only by the one mention saying that it stacks "any other modifier", which can either mean that it doesn't stack with itself (being the same modifier), but with other modifiers.

Or that it stacks with itself, another instance of itself matching "any other modifier".

And that's relevant because that's the only actual bit of rules that let us determine whether or not the +1 to invul saves from Cursed Earth stacks.

morgoth wrote:
The thing is, the units do not gain the benefit, proof is that if you move them away they don't have it anymore.

If the Psyker dies ? they lose the effect.

That's not proof. That's fiction. They have the benefit as long as they're in range.

Meaning, they never gained "The benefit" of that Blessing in the first place.

Of course they did! They just loose it again if no longer in range.

The only model gaining "The benefit" from the blessing is the Psyker, luckily it's a benefit that lets him boost his friends.

Again, no rule says this. This is totally made up.

Of course the source is relevant, because if you consider the save improvement to be the benefit granted by the blessing, then it abides by the blessing stacking rules.

+1 to your invul save is most certainly a benefit. Do you conisder it a hinderance instead?

Whereas if you read the book correctly

Oh I have. An advance search algorim also couldn't find this made up rule of yours.

it's granted by the benefit of the blessing that the Psyker holds, and therefore follows its own rules with regards to stacking.

Again false and made up. Do you have any rules to show at all?

And then, the stacking is limited only by the one mention saying that it stacks "any other modifier", which can either mean that it doesn't stack with itself (being the same modifier), but with other modifiers.

Or that it stacks with itself, another instance of itself matching "any other modifier".

And that's relevant because that's the only actual bit of rules that let us determine whether or not the +1 to invul saves from Cursed Earth stacks.

No rules support. Goes directly against the meaning of the word "benefit". You're having to invent rules not found in the book just to make this wild theory work.

This is all totally false, and no where in the rulebook.
I would ask if you can prove any of these are actually rules, but it's been shown that they are not.

The unit has gained a benefit. An increase to their Invul save.
That's from the blessing. Says so right in the power description.
It's not from some magic rule given to the Psyker that somehow magically doesn't count as the blessing.