Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

All GK players that I have seen all use the net list, or with some slight variation such as different allies (SW or SM).
I was wondering what your lists are like as it seems that GKs are building a bit of a bad reputation for themselves.
Prove me wrong GK players, tell me your original lists and lets avoid the cheesy DK spam and Draigo!

The new GK book is terrible. I don't think any new army "release" has ever lost as many units with not a single new one to replace them. Most that remained lost their unique psychic powers, psybolt upgrades, wargear, etc and didn't even get a price drop (and in many cases got more expensive).

Even if you play the cheesiest Draigo DK spam GK list it is merely "good", not even overpowered. Nobody is making a bad name for themselves by using what VERY little is left in the book.

Agtthot wrote:
The new GK book is terrible. I don't think any new army "release" has ever lost as many units with not a single new one to replace them. Most that remained lost their unique psychic powers, psybolt upgrades, wargear, etc and didn't even get a price drop (and in many cases got more expensive).

Even if you play the cheesiest Draigo DK spam GK list it is merely "good", not even overpowered. Nobody is making a bad name for themselves by using what VERY little is left in the book.

I dont think its terrible, and if you miss the inquisition and assassins, get the other codexes/dataslates. the codex is purely for people who want to play solid grey knights without inquisition cluttering up the book.

How is it terrible? Its pretty strong! DE lost loads of characters, and GW are releasing new units without codex updates (Tyranids) so who says that you won't get anything new?

Monte is right, everything is still available, just through other sources. It didn't make sense for them all to be in the same codex anyway as the Inquisition and Assassins are all separate entities, so why should they be with GKs?

SGTPozy wrote:
How is it terrible? Its pretty strong! DE lost loads of characters, and GW are releasing new units without codex updates (Tyranids) so who says that you won't get anything new?

Monte is right, everything is still available, just through other sources. It didn't make sense for them all to be in the same codex anyway as the Inquisition and Assassins are all separate entities, so why should they be with GKs?

I love GK and have played the new book extensively on both competitive and fluffy levels.

You would be hard pressed to deny the internal balance of the codex isn't terrible. A fully kitted grand master loses horribly to both Draigo and even a generic Space Marine chapter master. If you ever want a killy HQ, Draigo is the only logical option unless you want to hinder yourself. Dreadknights are the same way. Mastery level 3 terminator librarians cost 20 pts less than the AP3 duelist champion who is terrible at dueling. This is why you see mono build lists because worse options are more expensive than great options which exacerbates them being worse.

You can just say "ally everything back in", but nearly every major tournament is putting a cap on the number of codex sources you can use to build your army. You literally can't play GK, inquisition, assassins, and the stormwing formation and say all your bases are covered because it just isn't allowed competitvely (where I play and assume many play follow the BAO/LVO format).

If any other book lost literally PAGES of codex entries, and had a zero model "release", then had those free pages be sold back to them at an extra 20-30$ a pop (assassin dataslate and inquisition codex), people would be going ballistic.

The book has a few very powerful units and the GK are still my favorite, but it is easily the worst release I've ever seen while playing the game.

I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

Lanlaorn wrote:
I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

100% this.

Well, for a couple of games I tried something like...

Grand Master, Soul Glaive, psycannon
Crowe
9 Purifiers (2 Hammers, halberds on everyone else, in a rhino)
4 Paladins (Apothecary, a hammer, a falchion and a default one)
5 Strikers (Psycannon) (Lascannon Razorback)
5 Interceptors (Incinerator, Hammer, 1 pair of falchions)
2 Dreadnoughts (2xTL-AC each)

I think that was it. I tried a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons once, too. It was basically my 5th edition list except I had to use some of Purifiers as a Strike Squad (and 5 of my Purifier models became useless, I'll let you try and guess which ones...)

It didn't take me long to find out that:
1) razorbacks, rhinos, and dreadnoughts are now useless between not being able to Deep Strike and no longer having access to Psybolts. This extends to Purifiers, but at least they can go into a Stormraven and not get chewed apart turn 1)
2) Without Grand Strategy, there isn't really a point to Grand Masters. They just don't compare to Chapter Masters (3W... really? 4+ Invuln at best? Ok...)
3) I knew before I even went into a game, but new Psycannons on Power Armor... maybe if Librarians could access Biomancy.... Why couldn't they have made it 36" range? Hell, I'd have been happy with 30"!
4) Crowe is even worse... with a whopping 3 attacks I lose every challenge I tried to get him in to. I would just miss every attack/if I hit they would make their invuln save! Meanwhile, even with re-rollable saves 2 wounds meant that a things like Dark Eldar (with their huge number of attacks) could overwhelm me with quantity over quality of attacks. I've been playing Crowe since I started in 5th edition and let me tell you, after 5 5-7 turn games with the new codex, he spent 15 turns in challenges and dealt 3 wounds. One of those was to himself, with perils.

There's more, but I'll sum up my conclusions:
1) Everything needs to deep strike. Say bye-bye to rhinos, razorbacks, and dreadnoughts.
2) Grand Masters don't multiply your force or kill your enemies very well. Brotherhood Champions and Crowe suck at challenges. Take a Librarian.
3) 10 Purifiers and a Dreadnought in a Stormraven is a fun, if ineffective, use of points.

So let's make a list based on these conclusions...

Level 3 Librarian, DLD, Hammer, storm bolter (it's what my model has)
5 Terminators, Psycannon, Hammers/halberd mix
10 Purifiers, 2 Hammers, 8 Halberds
Stormraven, Multi-melta, Lascannon
10 Interceptors, 2 incinerators, 2 hammers
Dreadnought, 2x TL-AC
Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter, Greatsword)

Oh no, I made a netlist based on observations made while playing the game. Just doing what the book tells me to do...

Lanlaorn wrote:
I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

But does every GK list need to use only the absolute best options available and nothing else?

 vipoid wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

But does every GK list need to use only the absolute best options available and nothing else?

This is exactly my point. You don't get that with other armies, so why should we accept it from GKs?

I complain as I see that GK are like CSM in 6th: just complaining because you can. CSM players gave themselves a really bad reputation, just like you guys are. You think its acceptable to spam your best units, just like they did with their helldrake, yet that was considered cheese for some reason. The helldrake was their only awesome unit in an otherwise bland codex, yet they received hate for it, but because you're GKs we shouldn't hate, right?
w
Wow, you lost units but you still have access to them, CSM is a poorly balanced codex, was was it acceptable for triple helldrakes? No.

 vipoid wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

But does every GK list need to use only the absolute best options available and nothing else?

Well with the units being so elite i'd imagine that by taking a non best option your actually sinking quite a few points into something worse and it is a significantly larger portion of your army.

It would be awesome not to be able to, I dont play GK, but thats just an observation. I play orks, so when I want to bring a sub-optimal unit I can and usually for about 1/10th the cost of my entire force. Whereas, I imagine Gk's your looking at more like 2/10ths or 3/10ths, While not entirely list breaking, it is a little pricey.

I am sure there are some other lists available, but typically they involve swapping out your weaker units for the sub-optimal. I mean almost all ork lists include a MA warboss with DLS or biker boss. That is our best unit and we dont leaver home without one, just like draigo. Yeh i may bring a weirdboy every once in awhile, but usually my Warboss is still there mashing face.

Rihgu wrote:
Well, for a couple of games I tried something like...

Grand Master, Soul Glaive, psycannon
Crowe
9 Purifiers (2 Hammers, halberds on everyone else, in a rhino)
4 Paladins (Apothecary, a hammer, a falchion and a default one)
5 Strikers (Psycannon) (Lascannon Razorback)
5 Interceptors (Incinerator, Hammer, 1 pair of falchions)
2 Dreadnoughts (2xTL-AC each)

I think that was it. I tried a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons once, too. It was basically my 5th edition list except I had to use some of Purifiers as a Strike Squad (and 5 of my Purifier models became useless, I'll let you try and guess which ones...)

It didn't take me long to find out that:
1) razorbacks, rhinos, and dreadnoughts are now useless between not being able to Deep Strike and no longer having access to Psybolts. This extends to Purifiers, but at least they can go into a Stormraven and not get chewed apart turn 1)
2) Without Grand Strategy, there isn't really a point to Grand Masters. They just don't compare to Chapter Masters (3W... really? 4+ Invuln at best? Ok...)
3) I knew before I even went into a game, but new Psycannons on Power Armor... maybe if Librarians could access Biomancy.... Why couldn't they have made it 36" range? Hell, I'd have been happy with 30"!
4) Crowe is even worse... with a whopping 3 attacks I lose every challenge I tried to get him in to. I would just miss every attack/if I hit they would make their invuln save! Meanwhile, even with re-rollable saves 2 wounds meant that a things like Dark Eldar (with their huge number of attacks) could overwhelm me with quantity over quality of attacks. I've been playing Crowe since I started in 5th edition and let me tell you, after 5 5-7 turn games with the new codex, he spent 15 turns in challenges and dealt 3 wounds. One of those was to himself, with perils.

There's more, but I'll sum up my conclusions:
1) Everything needs to deep strike. Say bye-bye to rhinos, razorbacks, and dreadnoughts.
2) Grand Masters don't multiply your force or kill your enemies very well. Brotherhood Champions and Crowe suck at challenges. Take a Librarian.
3) 10 Purifiers and a Dreadnought in a Stormraven is a fun, if ineffective, use of points.

So let's make a list based on these conclusions...

Level 3 Librarian, DLD, Hammer, storm bolter (it's what my model has)
5 Terminators, Psycannon, Hammers/halberd mix
10 Purifiers, 2 Hammers, 8 Halberds
Stormraven, Multi-melta, Lascannon
10 Interceptors, 2 incinerators, 2 hammers
Dreadnought, 2x TL-AC
Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter, Greatsword)

Oh no, I made a netlist based on observations made while playing the game. Just doing what the book tells me to do...

I'll do the same with Tau now. Everything sucks compared to HYMP broadsides and IA riptides, so I'll only use them and the FW riptides too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Solar Shock wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

But does every GK list need to use only the absolute best options available and nothing else?

Well with the units being so elite i'd imagine that by taking a non best option your actually sinking quite a few points into something worse and it is a significantly larger portion of your army.

It would be awesome not to be able to, I dont play GK, but thats just an observation. I play orks, so when I want to bring a sub-optimal unit I can and usually for about 1/10th the cost of my entire force. Whereas, I imagine Gk's your looking at more like 2/10ths or 3/10ths, While not entirely list breaking, it is a little pricey.

I am sure there are some other lists available, but typically they involve swapping out your weaker units for the sub-optimal. I mean almost all ork lists include a MA warboss with DLS or biker boss. That is our best unit and we dont leaver home without one, just like draigo. Yeh i may bring a weirdboy every once in awhile, but usually my Warboss is still there mashing face.

Just because they are elite they have to take the best units? So only horde armies can take uncompetitive units?... Okay :L

This thread is also to find out what other lists are used, but so far everyone uses the netlist. It just seems like GK players aren't allowed to take fun lists for some reason, like they're only obsessed with winning now, even though it wasn't like that before.

 vipoid wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

But does every GK list need to use only the absolute best options available and nothing else?

No, but why aim that question at Grey Knights players? It's a valid question for any player.

In a competitive environment? Yes, you should use the absolute best options available, and people do. Outside of a competitive environment? No, but I've never seen GK net-lists be spammed in casual environments, either.

The rest of the GK codex is comparable to old Dark Eldar Mandrakes, AM rough riders, Tau Vespid... it goes beyond being not the optimal choice and really more of just auto losing all but the easiest of games.

Castellan Crowe is one of my favorite models on the entire game and one of my favorites from the old book as he rended on a 4+ with lots of awesome rules... now outside of a challenge he is literally a 185pt assault marine sergeant.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No, but why aim that question at Grey Knights players? It's a valid question for any player.

Because GKs are the topic of this thread and it was the reason given by GK players.

SGTPozy wrote:
I'll do the same with Tau now. Everything sucks compared to HYMP broadsides and IA riptides, so I'll only use them and the FW riptides too.

Erm, not quite the same. Those units suck COMPARED TO other units. Grey Knights units suck in a vacuum.
My conclusions were based on ACTUALLY PLAYING these units, and finding out they don't accomplish the things they are meant to do... so I take the units that CAN accomplish the things they are meant to do. Or at least make my opponents go "wtf?" (see: Purifiers + Dreadnought in Stormraven)

Unless you really think spending 180pts and an HQ slot for the "greatest swordsman in the galaxy", you know, the guy who kept Skulltaker at a standstill long enough for his team to accomplish their mission and then got out alive(!!!) with essentially a hunk of metal (as he wasn't using any of his swords powers) and having him only be good at killing unit champions is good.

Or a unit of "heavy fire support" that either stand still and shoot their 24" (!!!) guns or move and shoot their 12" (!!!!!!) guns (and can't assault afterwards). Most units that fill that role don't need to reposition because they have decent range.

I think maybe a Land Raider wall would work

Brother Captain
5 Terminators, Land Raider Crusader
10 Purifiers, Land Raider
10 Purifiers, Land Raider
10 Purifiers, Stormraven
10 Purifiers, Stormraven

I think that roughly fits into an 1850 list. That could be fun. Wish I had another raven and 3 land raiders...

Asking if we can bring sub optimal varied lists because our opponents are tired of seeing the same list would be like asking a NBA team to play their practice squad in a game because we are tired of the same old star players. The GK codex un allied is middle tier at best, and to ask us to handicap ourselves because you are bored of our lists is not only a pretty self centered view, but really asinine. Would you be willing to purposely take a large portion of your list from ineffective or impotent units. If i said, "You know, im really tired of seeing far seers and wraith knghts so could you do something different like running a list comprised exclusively of guardians and harlequins with a squad of war walkers led by an autarch?"

Mainly in that I include several Strike Squads and Interceptors. But the rest of the list contains the usual suspects - Draigo, Librarians, Purifiers and Dreadknights. It's hard to get away from those units, they're just so good.

The HQ choices are what piss me off the most honestly. The librarian is the only good choice. The _only_ one. But more than that though, regular Space Marine HQ units are toolbox units. We've got none of that. Case in point: why on earth can't we have an HQ unit with personal teleporters? Our jump pack equivalent? Why do our HQs not have the option to not take terminator armor? Our swords don't give +1 invuln in close combat anymore, so there's no reason we couldn't have storm shields. I guess Draigo is hoarding them all to himself.

I understand GK not getting all the space marine toys, and even the storm shield thing, since they're not on our sprue, but its frustrating when it seems like obvious options were just taken away for no reason.

And for the record - I run one dreadknight in my 'net list.' But he brings his big brother the Knight Errant along with him.

SGTPozy wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I don't understand why the original poster has such an axe to grind against GKs but the new codex is about as deep as the Sisters of Battle codex, there's no "netlist" there's just "these are the good options left".

But does every GK list need to use only the absolute best options available and nothing else?

This is exactly my point. You don't get that with other armies, so why should we accept it from GKs?

I complain as I see that GK are like CSM in 6th: just complaining because you can. CSM players gave themselves a really bad reputation, just like you guys are. You think its acceptable to spam your best units, just like they did with their helldrake, yet that was considered cheese for some reason. The helldrake was their only awesome unit in an otherwise bland codex, yet they received hate for it, but because you're GKs we shouldn't hate, right?
w
Wow, you lost units but you still have access to them, CSM is a poorly balanced codex, was was it acceptable for triple helldrakes? No.

Drake spamming garnered a lot more hate than DK spamming for two reasons in my opinion: A.) Heldrake spam came about when flyers were still relatively new to the game at which point many armies did not have an answer to them, and when they were arguably the best flyer around. B.) People aren't as intimidated by tough MCs anymore. After Riptides and Wraithknights became a common sight on the tabletop, not to mention Imperial Knights, most people have the tools to deal with them or have a list that can largely ignore them.

I've seen mention of GK "Netlist" on here several times lately. I didn't even know there WAS a GK Netlist. After going through the codex, I really don't get it. There's not a whole lot taking besides DK's, Purifiers, Interceptors, and maybe Strike Squads. Grey Knights are also so expensive that it's hard to add any flavor after you've purchased the core. The Beardiest thing you can do with GK is ally with with SM for a Cent Star, or with SW for drop pod purifiers.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
The HQ choices are what piss me off the most honestly. The librarian is the only good choice. The _only_ one.

For real, yo. I'm not sure why the Brother Captain is a 40 point premium over the Librarian. His equipment is largley the same, and his statline buff doesn't justify it (SM get that statline buff for 25 pts). The only other GK IC that is considered good is Draigo, who has both mobility (in the form of GoI) and a Storm Shield. SM Captains are only good because they have access to awesome mobility equipment (bikes and jump packs) and Storm Shields - if they were forced to foot slog like the GK HQs, they wouldn't see nearly as much use.

While someone who brings 3 DK in a "Saturday Afternoon" kind of game deserves to be tied to a chair for 10 hours with an audio recording of Matt Ward Grey Knight fluff playing in the background, understand where we're coming from. Every option in our codex is expensive, and the internal balancing is... questionable at best. Heavy Support? Hm... Dread Knights, or Devastators with 24 inch range maximum. For comparable prices. Tough choice. A whopping total of 2 fast attack choices, both of which are thankfully worthwhile. Or our two troops choices? 110 points for 5 dipsticks, or I could pay 55 points and put those same dipsticks in Terminator Armor. Again, that's a toughie. Ooh! What about a Mastery Level 3 Librarian in Terminator armor for 135, or we could spend an extra 15 points, lose 2 mastery levels, but get a marginal stat line increase? I can't think of a single reason why I wouldn't do that.

Not only is the internal balance skewed, but we have next to no options even counting the hot garbage (see: Purgation Squads). Even if everything in the codex was worthwhile (it's not), you'd still see similar lists.

And finally, why should I or anyone agree we should go ahead and fight with both feet in a bucket because the few players you've encountered played lists you don't like? Isn't that their issue for being boring, WAAC sods?

Its kind of a dumb poll. There are only a few combinations that work, with all of them posted, critiqued, flamed, and threaded in the internet, making any list a net list.

SJ

The codex itself doesn't provide much variety. You can easilly blame eldar for bringing serpent+wraithknight spam cause they actually have a ton of different lists avaliable. Basically, any unit except for banshees is good.

However, i think that for a casual game as a GK player, you shouldn't bring a nemesis knight-spam. Bring just one knight and a storm-raven, for example. Bring 1 libby 1 master. 1 termies, 1 strikes. That's what everyone wants to play against - a variable list. It's more fun and tactical.

Note that we're not talking about competitive tournaments - it's different kind of fun and everything goes there.

SGTPozy wrote:


Just because they are elite they have to take the best units? So only horde armies can take uncompetitive units?... Okay :L

This thread is also to find out what other lists are used, but so far everyone uses the netlist. It just seems like GK players aren't allowed to take fun lists for some reason, like they're only obsessed with winning now, even though it wasn't like that before.

oh wow, im glad you can read whole posts, decide what you want to read in them and then make useless points, thats a real skill there.
I wasn't suggesting that any army can only take competitive or un-competitive for that matter, I was simply factoring in other factors other than whether the unit is the best or not. But im not gona bother explaining again as you wont get it.

Koooaei pretty much has it on the head.

Welp Pozy the people have spoken hope you enjoy your tailored anti GK list this weekend.

If you think this thread is talking about competitive/tourney lists then you are an idiot. Of course you'd spam your best units, but this is CLEARLY about casual play.

I'm not asking someone to take a "less optimal" list, where did I ask that? I was asking if the GK players on Dakka are like the guys I've played against, and it turns out that you are.

In my gaming group, during casual games GK players are the only ones to only take their best units, hence me asking if you do too. Like I said earlier, why shouldn't I just spam my best units in casual games? The answer is that it wouldn't be fun for anyone.

@astro_nomicon, MC are very much hated on, you barely go anywhere without people hating on the Wraithknight and/or Riptide (yet not the Dreadknight for some reason...) so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Tabletop racism?..

SGTPozy wrote:
If you think this thread is talking about competitive/tourney lists then you are an idiot. Of course you'd spam your best units, but this is CLEARLY about casual play.

I'm not asking someone to take a "less optimal" list, where did I ask that? I was asking if the GK players on Dakka are like the guys I've played against, and it turns out that you are.

In my gaming group, during casual games GK players are the only ones to only take their best units, hence me asking if you do too. Like I said earlier, why shouldn't I just spam my best units in casual games? The answer is that it wouldn't be fun for anyone.

@astro_nomicon, MC are very much hated on, you barely go anywhere without people hating on the Wraithknight and/or Riptide (yet not the Dreadknight for some reason...) so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Can you even read your own poll?
38% the usual net list
31% net list with a spin
31% something original.....

... how you gathered from that that everyone on dakka plays only the best units I have no idea, im starting to think that your just an angry child who's lost to some Gk players. Starting with your points:
"If you think this thread is talking about competitive/tourney lists then you are an idiot. Of course you'd spam your best units, but this is CLEARLY about casual play." - Well you never actually stated which it was, so the idea that it is CLEARLY casual play goes right out the window, we dont read minds, we take what you gave us(not a lot) and give an opinion.

"In my gaming group, during casual games GK players are the only ones to only take their best units, hence me asking if you do too." - TADA! see, with one line you actually managed to inform us of what you really wanted to know, "during casual games", wasn't so difficult was it?
"The answer is that it wouldn't be fun for anyone." - well it would be if you were both playing your best units, as people who enjoy competitive play would enjoy this. Casual games can still be competitive, yes there is less of a focus on being WAAC, but doesn't mean you have to play easy.
"MC are very much hated on" - says who? you mean people hate MC's purely because they are MC's? im not even going to bother with that one.

Most people here have taken the time to give you decent responses, with reasons and their own personal experiences yet your conduct back has been rather aggressive and poor with no attempt to make reasonable discussion other than to tell GK players that its unacceptable to run their best units and that they should just accept the hate.
"The helldrake was their only awesome unit in an otherwise bland codex, yet they received hate for it, but because you're GKs we shouldn't hate, right?"
"I complain as I see that GK are like CSM in 6th: just complaining because you can."

I hope you have fun continuing to hate and I wish you luck (although part of me also hopes that these GK players you hate so much simply continue to smash your lists into the ground, because honestly your not making any reasonable steps towards accepting any views given to you)

I wouldnt pay any more attention to the Knight players here op. You've kinda got your answer about all gk lists being the same and i can say from experience the gk player i go against basically runs the net list too!

But after reading the threads on here (some I've posted myself as I've had similar problems) i really dont see things changing in the way gk lists are made with the mentality that every game is tournament level.

I'd personally say to your opponent how you feel and make the points youve made here about spaming your own riptide? As i agree if anything a dk is stronger than a riptide (speaking from personal experience)

Is there anyone else in your gaming group that feels the same way about his list?

Lastly, the game is about fun, either dont play and pack up your army when he presents you with his 'net list' or use the power of cheese against him yourself! Teach him a lesson at his own game its what i plan on doing next time i face gk's