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@zimko, Look on army lists and at any GK list and you'll see (not including the ones using ally shenanigans) 2 DKs, librarian, Draigo, interceptors, terminators. That's the netlist as basically everyone uses it (I don't understand how you haven't encountered the netlist).

@easysauce, I agree, the codex is good yet many people like to complain how ineffective it is.

@der ray, I know that there aren't many options, I have acknowledged that.
Tau don't have many more options (except for FA):
3 Elites (same),
2 Troops (same),
6 FA (4/2 more, depending on whether you count DT),
4 Heavy (1 more)
So Tau don't have that many more choices, just like GKs and AS.
Out of curiosity, how much more expensive are GK dreads compared to SM dreads then?

@ vipoid, the loss of special characters without models is common with all 7th ed codices; just look at DE.
As I've said before, now that Chapterhouse is out of the way, it is likely that GK's will get a model wave in the future, just like Tyranids.
GW clearly just wanted GK to be about terminators, so they buffed them, just like they wanted Kroot to be ambushers rather than full-on CC fighters.
Aren't Militarum Tempestus and Imperial Knights also the same price? They have far fewer units in yet they pay the same price: GW wants to be consistent.

@jeff, how would you like the poll to be? Yes, you may have posted alternative lists but do you use them? Also, does everyone else use them? The majority of GK players that I have fought all use the same list.
Why not post your 'Ghostwing' list rather than just complain?

SGTPozy wrote:
@ vipoid, the loss of special characters without models is common with all 7th ed codices; just look at DE.

Which doesn't make it good.

SGTPozy wrote:

As I've said before, now that Chapterhouse is out of the way, it is likely that GK's will get a model wave in the future, just like Tyranids.

So, if we're lucky, GW might eventually allow us to buy some of our content back? Whoop.

SGTPozy wrote:

GW clearly just wanted GK to be about terminators, so they buffed them, just like they wanted Kroot to be ambushers rather than full-on CC fighters.

But why does buffing one unit have to make another unit worthless?

SGTPozy wrote:

Aren't Militarum Tempestus and Imperial Knights also the same price? They have far fewer units in yet they pay the same price: GW wants to be consistent.

Consistently overpriced, perhaps.

I know it doesn't make it good, but unfortunately that's the way it is.

You haven't lost any content other than characters, I mean new content as I doubt that you'll get your characters back.

If one doesn't become useless then you'd get unit creep as terminators would have to get stupidly good, then they'd be OP. Gw's way was just to make terminators more attractive instead (which is better for balance).

Yeah, they're overpriced but its a premium hobby, so they can get away with charging high prices as they are relatively price inelastic.

SGTPozy wrote:

You haven't lost any content other than characters

Unless you count Assassins and Inquisition.

Also, bear in mind that I'm not (and have never been) a GK player. I just empathise with them after GW took a dump on their codex.

SGTPozy wrote:

If one doesn't become useless then you'd get unit creep as terminators would have to get stupidly good, then they'd be OP. Gw's way was just to make terminators more attractive instead (which is better for balance).

That makes no sense. Are terminators overpowered or aren't they? Because, whether strike squads are overpriced or not has no bearing on that answer.

If terminators are overpowered, then they were obviously made too good. If they're not overpowered, then the problem lies with strike squads.

SGTPozy wrote:

Yeah, they're overpriced but its a premium hobby, so they can get away with charging high prices as they are relatively price inelastic.

Indeed. hence why their profits just keep climbing...

Yeah, but they needed to go and are still available. The 'you' isn't directed at you personally, I mean GK players... And you too since you're here

I wouldn't say that they are, they're awesome but not OP. They made strike squads worse in comparison to make GK want to play termies rather than henchmen spam or whatever they used before.

Isn't that good though? It brings stability into the game as you don't gave to worry that GW will collapse any time soon.

SGTPozy wrote:
Yeah, but they needed to go and are still available.

Well, they were in the old book and they're not in the new one. I call that a loss of content.

At the very least, I'd expect the price of the book to halve after that - not double.

SGTPozy wrote:

I wouldn't say that they are, they're awesome but not OP. They made strike squads worse in comparison to make GK want to play termies rather than henchmen spam or whatever they used before.

But that's the thing - why weren't Strike Squads improved so that they weren't overshadowed by terminators. If terminators aren't overpowered, then surely you can raise SSs to a similar level without making them OP?

SGTPozy wrote:
Isn't that good though? It brings stability into the game as you don't gave to worry that GW will collapse any time soon.

I fear you missed my sarcasm there.

GW's profits have been falling considerably. Most likely because their ludicrous prices are driving away both new and old customers. And, with the removal of content and generally atrocious balance, it's not even as if you're getting a semblance of value for money.

Look at how few units we have:
2 Troops.
3 Elites.
1 Fast Attack unit, 1 flyer, then transports.
2 Heavies, + Land Raiders.

Of course all the armies look very similar, we have very few things to choose from.

IMO, I blame the psy-cannon nerf. With the only shooting that can down vehicles losing half their range and the ability to assault after firing, it's destroyed infantry spam builds. If I could take a melta and combi-melta in the list, I could still try and run the drop infantry list, but as is, I can't crack vehicles, unless I can catch them in close combat. It works well enough, until I need to crack transport spam, them I'm screwed. At least with S5 storm bolters, I used to be able to chip away most transports, not the case anymore.

The AV14 wall builds look worse than what you can do with SM. The terminators don't pair up well; you're giving up power fists for power swords, paying 43 points a model with you want a thunder hammer, and not getting a storm shield in the process.

SGTPozy wrote:
@jeff, how would you like the poll to be? Yes, you may have posted alternative lists but do you use them? Also, does everyone else use them? The majority of GK players that I have fought all use the same list.
Why not post your 'Ghostwing' list rather than just complain?

Well, for one, within the first month of the leaked GK codex, most army list variants were posted on the net, critiqued, adjusted, critiqued, play tested, critiqued, used in tournaments, and critiqued. This poll is asking:

Did you choose good units?

Did you choose a mix of good and bad units?

Did you choose bad units?

And that's about as useless as you can get.

What information were you trying to find? Was this an attempt to open a dialog or just bash GK players? A better poll would have been:

Do you go NSF?

Do you go CAD?

Do you go as an Allie?

Those choices would open a dialog on how people play their GK, not close dialog with a bias against using the codex at all.

SJ

SGTPozy wrote:
@zimko, Look on army lists and at any GK list and you'll see (not including the ones using ally shenanigans) 2 DKs, librarian, Draigo, interceptors, terminators. That's the netlist as basically everyone uses it (I don't understand how you haven't encountered the netlist).

Lets take a look of comparison of the units that you include in a netlist

NDK - 130pts for T6 4 wounds 2+5++. Really if you break him down he's a T6 4 wound terminator. What makes him scary is he can become jump and for arround 55 pts you can add so good shooting weapons. So for about 205 pts you get a beefy MC that can jump in your face turn 1. Very attactive. Now lets see what he is competing with in the heavy support slot.

Purgation squad: starts off at 110 pts for a 5 man squad, no deepstrike but they get night fighting. But they are like a dev squad in they can take 4 special weapons. So lets see what the options are. 4 Incinerators Not bad high str for a flammer and fairly low AP pen. But you'll have to drive them up to the enemy to engage. If you plan on taking a nemisis strike force with only 2 heavy slots not a very good choice with flammers doesn't seem like you will live long enough to get good use out of them. so next is 4 psilencers. Heavy 6 force str 4 ap-. That looks awesome! hmm only 24 inch range. Won't do anything Vs vech's which is what GK's really need. If I go up against a fully mech'd up AM list eldar, Ork trukks, pretty much any list with 3 or more vehicles I'm going to get rolled. So last weapon lets see, psycannon oh yea this thing is good! love that str 7 AP4 rending. Wait it's salvo 2/4. hmm and it's 80 pts for 4 of them. And also it's 24 inches. So that means I have to position them and never move them and hope something moves in range. However most of the time I'm going to be deepstriking into my opponent. that means with normal deployment or Vs a gunline no one will ever be in range. That sounds like 170 pts of wasted points hoping someone comes to me. If I played a smart player knowing I'm going to have a small model count as grey knights they would love to have a shooting match with me and just outshoot me at range. Welp what else do we have?

Land Raider: I can take these as a dedicated transport. Why would I waste a heavy slot for this?

Next lets look at librarian.
Libby - 110 pts for lvl 2 in term armor pretty sweet and all kinds of upgrades free sword halberd or falchions... awesome hammer only for a few pts even better. can take awesome relic for an extra psychic power in santic?!?! awesome sauce. doesn't come with any shooting but most options are pretty cheap. Huh I can take ML 3 for only a Quarter of pts? awesomeness all arround. Lets see what other HQ choices I got.

Named chacters: Brother-captain stern: WS and BS avg for a grandmaster type. Doesn't stand out too much. Oh here's a niffty rule I can re-roll any one die durring my turn! Oh but if I do that then my opponent can do the same thing? Hmm that's pretty dicey almost chaosy to me. hmm Term armor and Iron halo. Not bad. zone of banishment is cool so this guy is awesome Vs deamons.. what about all the other armies out there. Garunteed Sanctuary is good to know. Don't have storm shields so better invul is better when I can cast it. Well this guy looks like he would be a beast Vs daemons but not much else. Plus he's expensive at 185 pts... Well i'll save this guy Vs deamons not worth taking Vs anyone else.

castellan Crowe: Wow he went up in pts! 25 more pts. Must be worth it since he's not a "crowe tax" anymore. Great WS he's going be hitting people. Avg states the rest of the way only 3 attacks base. Hmm Heroic sacrifice I see got worse. only grants an extra attack if I die. Not that great. oh he'll be sweet in challenges! Smash special rule and reroll saves?!?! but only in challenges. That could be an issue. His sword is AP-?!? so my opponent will just refuse challenges and then nurture crowe as a 3 attack Sgt? well that's kind of a waste of 175 pts.

what else

Brother capt - meh if you've seen one caption you've seen them all. Can take a relic but doesn't really add much. I guess I could give him a psycannon make a unit of terminators with 3 psy cannons. That could be ineteresting. But he only gets one psychic power. and really sanctuary is needed if my terminators have to make invul saves.

Grand Master: hmm same as the Capt but one more attack and one more psychic power. Not bad but libby is more attractive as you get more for less pts.

Brotherhood champion: Same as crowe but less WS 25 less pts and can only get smash or reroll saves... not both at the same time. And again only in challenges. At least he has an AP 3 sword. With force. Meh he'll be an ok additional HQ... but doesn't fit with terminators as he can't DS... means he'll be running across the board. Might be worth it in a group of purifiers though.

Draigo: The only LoW in the codex... he's not required. still kind of expensive has a ton of great rules, eternal warrior, GoI the only Storm shield in the codex. I can see the draw (Personally I never take him)

Interceptors: 130 pts to get in your face fast maybe add a psy cannon or flammer. Definitely attractive. What else is in the same slot
Storm Raven: it's good for 200 pts but it's worrysome that it's not coming on until turn 2...
Razorback/Rhino: I can take these as dedicated transports if I wanted.

So after looking at all of this to me it's easy to see people running your "netlist" without really knowing it's a netlist. for me it's a shoe in to at least use Libby NDK and terminators. didn't bother discussing TDA vs SS as I think the differences are obvious. Can you run a non net list? yes of course you can. Still if you run a completely non net list IE 0 of the above units it will not be a fun game for the GK's player. He will be tabled if playing with an equally skilled opponent. Baring Hot dice vs cold dice shenanigans. So most likely you will see at least 2 of the above netlist units in every list. But with so few choices it's hardly an argument. Also noting that if a person take 1 minimum size unit of all the netlist options then you are looking 780 pts minimum for a total of 13 models. if you can't kill 13 models then maybe you should take a look at your list.

SGTPozy wrote:
@zimko, Look on army lists and at any GK list and you'll see (not including the ones using ally shenanigans) 2 DKs, librarian, Draigo, interceptors, terminators. That's the netlist as basically everyone uses it (I don't understand how you haven't encountered the netlist).

@easysauce, I agree, the codex is good yet many people like to complain how ineffective it is.

@der ray, I know that there aren't many options, I have acknowledged that.
Tau don't have many more options (except for FA):
3 Elites (same),
2 Troops (same),
6 FA (4/2 more, depending on whether you count DT),
4 Heavy (1 more)
So Tau don't have that many more choices, just like GKs and AS.
Out of curiosity, how much more expensive are GK dreads compared to SM dreads then?

@ vipoid, the loss of special characters without models is common with all 7th ed codices; just look at DE.
As I've said before, now that Chapterhouse is out of the way, it is likely that GK's will get a model wave in the future, just like Tyranids.
GW clearly just wanted GK to be about terminators, so they buffed them, just like they wanted Kroot to be ambushers rather than full-on CC fighters.
Aren't Militarum Tempestus and Imperial Knights also the same price? They have far fewer units in yet they pay the same price: GW wants to be consistent.

@jeff, how would you like the poll to be? Yes, you may have posted alternative lists but do you use them? Also, does everyone else use them? The majority of GK players that I have fought all use the same list.
Why not post your 'Ghostwing' list rather than just complain?

I think you're either misunderstanding what most people are saying about the GK codex or just choosing to keep your biased views. I'm hoping that the latter is not the case otherwise this thread is simply a flaming/complaining thread and needs to be locked.

You state that every list you come across uses the same units you refer to as the "netlist" and that all GK players are simply complaining that their codex is bad when really, according to you, it's "good". However, it seems to me like nobody is arguing that the GK codex is bad in a way that it is unplayable but rather that only a small handful of units are viable units for any competitive list (and by competitive I mean competitive in both tournament and casual play). Thus, when you only have 9 units to begin win (excluding HQs and Transports) and half of them are blatantly inferior to the alternative, then I see no way to build a competitive list w/o using the units you consider a "netlist". Thats like asking you to build a competitive tau list w/o using a commander, pathfinders, firewarriors, crisis suits, broadsides, riptides, or hammerheads. (I'm assuming you're a tau player based off your previous posts).


Also, your experience with GK players is a extremely small sample size compared to the number of GK out there so try to refrain from generalizing your experiences to an entire group of people, especially if the comments are accusational. I am one of those GK players you seem to think doesn't exist in that I do not use the netlist (at least in its entirety).
My standard GK list consists of:
1x Librarian (b/c he's cheap)
10x Interceptors (for mobility)
10x Purifiers in a Rhino (b/c cleansing flame + soul blaze is fun)
5x Terminators (b/c they look cool and are cheaper than paladins)
10x Strikes (DS buddies for my termies)
(2x) 5x Purgation Squad in a Rhino (b/c I like to pewpew)
Coming out to 1490pts

Using this list, I still use hafl of what you call the "netlist" (because theres really not much else to pick from even disregarding unit strength) and I still get crushed in most of my games. Luckily I care little for winning or losing so it doesn't matter. However that's not the case for all people try to be considerate of how other people may feel since there is a full spectrum of playing ranging from people who don't care like me to WAAC players and none of them are wrong in what they enjoy. You have to keep in mind that while you may or may not be bringing a casual list full of inferior models, not everybody at your local game shop necessarily will be doing the same and the GK players aren't going into the game shop thinking "I'm playing SGTPozy's fun list" today. They're probably going in with a TAC list w/ the possibility of playing against a WAAC player so the netlist gives them the best chance to hold their own against other competitive lists. If you arranged a casual game with intended for unoptimized lists and he brings an optimized list, then thats something you probably need to take up with the individual, not an entire community.


Furthermore, while you may be bored of playing against the "netlist", maybe the GK player isn't so who is anybody to tell them how they can or can't use their models. They paid the money for the models so they could play with them in whatever way that is fun for them. If they wanted to play with a 20 NDK unbound list, its really nobody's place to say otherwise. I highly doubt they will find many people who would want to play against a list like that but still, its their prerogative to play with whatever list they want, just as its your prerogative to refuse to play against any list that you find boring or unfair. At the end of the day its just a game and its meant to be fun, and that varies from person to person.

Lastly, the other lists that have been made have all been posted before in other threads and some even in here. Its not everybody else's job to find them for your. Thats what the search button is for.

For illustrative purposes I will post both my pre-codex and current armies. They were designed to be fun yet competitive, and naturally take advantage of the strengths of the codex.

Old list (exact composition varied by points, obviously)

HQ slots: Mordrak (accompanied by ghost knights of course), Librarian. Ordo whatever inquisitors in low point games.

Troops: 10x strike squad with assortment of swords, halberd and hammer, 2x incinerators. 5 man terminator squad with psycannon, mix of melee weapons.

Elites: Vindicare Assassin, occasionally venerable dreads with twin TL AC with psybolt ammo.

H. Support: L.R. Redeemer and/or regular old L.R. pattern. Dreadknight with personal teleporter, sword and heavy incinerator.

At 1850 or 2000, the whole idea was to turn 1 deep strike Mordrak, his knights and the Libby near the inevitable enemy gunline. Libby deployed servoskulls to cover front edge of enemy deployment zone. Libby then goes ham by casting offensive powers of choice followed by summoning up a land raider redeemer with a full load of PAGK, using servoskulls to limit scatter. Dreadknight shunts forward to support the assault. Dreadnought(s) and vindicare shoot up likely threats, hold down backfield objectives supported by 5 termies.

Then the codex dropped. Lost Mordrak, the summoning power (among numerous others). Lost psybolt ammo, rendering my dreadnoughts overpriced and reduced in effectiveness. Lost the vindicare as well as inquisitors as options from the codex (matters for tournament rules limiting number of source books).

Current list (again, varies based on points).

HQ: Librarian(s). Mordrak conversion further converted to become a Libby with hammer and liber daemonicus (was originally converted from generic brother captain.)

Troops: Minimal unit of terminators.

Elites: paladin squad, purifiers (former strike squad, repainted with proper ugly white helmets).

Heavy support. 2x dreadknight.

Dedicated transports: land raider redeemer for purifiers, land raider for terminators

LoW: Draigo.

Draigo, paladins and librarians deploy as death Star in deep cover or preferably out of enemy LOS. Same with dreadknights.
Terminators and combat squad of purifiers deploy in land raiders. Turn one, land raiders flat out or cruise and pop smoke, depending on conditions, NDKs either jump 12 or flank via shunts, and draigostar casts invis and/or sanctuary followed by gate of infinity to a threatening position. Similar principle to the old list with multiple threats in your face quickly, but achieved through the means available. The codex changes necessitated a switch in composition. Not the fault of GK players that their options were artificially narrowed.

Grand master
Master Crafted Psycannon
Nemsisis Force Halberd
Melta Bombs

Terminators x10
x10 halberd
x2 psycannon
melta bombs

Terminators x10
x10 halberd
x2 psycannon
melta bombs

Terminators x10
x10 halberd
x2 psycannon
melta bombs

Nemisis Dreadknight
Personal Teleport
Heavy Psycannon

Nemisis Dreadknight
Personal Teleport
Heavy Psycannon

Nemisis Dreadknight
Personal Teleport
Heavy Psycannon

1992 points

Just decided on this list, never played Grey Knights before.

Ohhhh i dont know, I have no land raiders or librarians, but I have THREEE count them THREE Dreadknights.

I didn;t take incinerators because this I have lots of other tools to remove lots of models like storm bolters and psycannons on terminator models that make full use of its salvo profile, and all of my models have a decent amount of high strength attacks s in melee.

BORDERLINE!?

This codex isn't anything like last edition, psybolt ammunition? The wound shenangians(changed with new edition rules but still) with the 2+ invuln force stave, all that inquisitor and assassins bollocks is now gone. All the min-maxed "grey knight" lists that had not a single grey knight in it but instead was full of henchmen of whatever it was called and had spammed psybolt razorsbacks,

The preponderence of the so-called "netlists" isn't anything like it was last edition. We lost so many things and honestly I think its for the better, It's a codex with a better identity and focus to what it actually is, a small elite (har har space marines are elite) strikeforce of expensive models.

I don't consider myself a competitive player, when I build a armylist I like things neat and tidy, hence the copypastness of my list. I like simple, short and sweet, clear cut organization(which is probably why ill never play a horde army, too many things to manage, or astra militarium for that matter).

I don't like the meq units in this codex because when I think of Grey Knights I think of their terminators and those awesome helmets they have(but not paladins screw those guys, your helmets suck and WOW ARE U EXPENSIVE STOP IT).

I also tend to ignore good things that codexes have on offer either because I don't like it for some arbitrary reason or I prefer something else (ex, ap- weapons I abosolutely detest and would never ever voluntarily take one, yes a dreadknight can take the psilencer and has the force ability for ID but I really really dislike ap- because I'd rather that a weapon that has a higher AP and completely removed an opponents option for wound mitigation rather than flood a army with a high quantity of low quality shots and hope that numbers carry the day.

Another example, when I played eldar last edition, I took starcannons all of my wave serpents even though the cost was expensive, I was criticized for not taking scatter lasers because they provided more high S shots to clean out hordes, I knew I had other tools to clear out hordes and preferred taking the high s low ap gun that had less shots because it was a more worthwhile option for me based on my list and personal preferences as compared to another's players, warp spiders? oh I loved those guys but hated their guns.

I thought one day o cool I like bikes, space marines on bikes are so tough, fast and look at this awesome plasma gun spam. I hated it, I won't touch a biker army with a 10 ft pole now, the idea, and concept is cool and I will root for a person with an all biker army but wow I do not like playing one, probably because of a combination of me being bad at playing a bike army and have different expectations for how they would play in actuality. It's one thing to make a list its another thing to actually play it.

I considered land raiders briefly but dropped them because that means I couldn't make full use of a x10 terminator unit if I ran that and really liked the look of the dreadknight and how utterly undeniable the threat it brings to the table with its PT. Also 250 points for two really nice weapons seems silly when I could just fit in another terminator squad on foot, yes that means I'm slower and more vulnerable but thats why I have dread knights, bamf 30 " in your face and shooting, theres 3 JMC's in your face what do you do? That's a lot more valuable to mean than have a expensive transport that can't carry a fully complement of terminators however nice the guns on that transport is.

I generally dislike all fast attacks slots no matter what army I'm playing, even elite units get the short shrift in my book.(I think the only fast attack units I run in any army right now is dominions..... and we alll know why you run them )

I like making my own hq unit that has options, so no special characters for me, i don't like adepta mechanius related things so no techmarine and no librarian since I prefer more melee and shooty hq's that can help out their troops and not just be a tax I have to take. That's not to say other hq units aren't good or that you shouldn't like, I just personally like the overall look and playstyle of the captain/grand master than the other hq units.

I used to have a army that had dreadnoughts and was never very impressed with them, even with dual autocannons, they always felt underwhelming, I have no reason or option to take a rhino or razorback because terminators can't take them. I dislike flying vehicles in general(they often look silly to me and flyers have a lot of rules unique to them that I can't be bothered to learn so I avoid taking them to make my life a little easier considereing the plethora of rules that 40k already had before flyers came in), the stormraven is really really silly looking to me as other other flying vehicles in other armies to me, I'd rather have more bodies or a land based vehicle, I have not seen to many lord of war models yet but I did not take kindly to draigo, I don't like the model period, he's a super expensive solo, and a unique character which I already expressed my dislike for earlier. I don't think I will be taking any lord of war choices for any army if similiar choices are going to be there.

So there's all of my reasoning for making the list I made.

but tldr(this is not directed at YOU, this is a general statement about the "boo hoo netlist" attitude)

Stop calling every list you see a netlist just because it seems good on paper or because you had a bad matchup or you think it's "cheese". I understand and appreciate the fact that you will run into a army list that you will have a hard time against and there will be times where you can do absolutely nothing to prepare against it. (I think we've all experience that, I don't think people on the internet are all as bad as people irl make as out to be, were still people, you will run into actual jerks but that doesn't happen quite as often as people make it apparently seem to be)

I like things that I like, if it's competitive whatever, if it's not competitive whatever. I'm playing what I like because I like the model or what it does not because it's the best thing in the world and I'm treating every game like a cutthroat tournament game. Even tournament games can be fun you know.

I was playing a net list with two NDK's, interceptor squad, max termie quad with libbo, a knight errant and culexus. Played in a small tourney this past weekend and went 1-2. First round went up against the tau formation with riptide and 6 broadsides with a primary detachment of eldar with 4 wave serpents and some war walkers and got stomped, wasn't even fair. Second was space wolves with 3 dreads (murderfang, and bjorn included) and walked through him. Third was eldar with one wraithknight, two wave serpents and Eldrad in a full warlock squad. My Dreadknight with sword STOMPED the wraithknight turn two. Librarian and termies deep struck in, killed a unit of fire dragons in cc and then proceeded to murder the warlock/Eldrad blob in cc as well, but I lost by one victory point because my librarian died casting invisibility on my termies.

A couple of things I might change is dropping the imperial knight, culexus and interceptors and picking up a centurion squad with Tigerius and I want to try to wiggle in draigo for guaranteed gate of infinity on the cents. The knight errant was just WAY too slow for the rest of my army which I like to get into close range as soon as possible.