Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay. So, let us stop speaking about those guys motivations, then.

Nobody said anything about that. You can talk about their personal motivations, just don't assume that the way these guys practice Islam should reflect on every other Muslim.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-reality-of-islam

crowds of thousands have gathered throughout the Muslim world—burning European embassies, issuing threats, and even taking hostages—in protest over 12 cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad that were first published in a Danish newspaper last September.

Anyway, I'll excuse myself from this thread and let the usual suspects carry on with their "religion of peace" nonsense.

My condolences to the victims and their families.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

And we need to find out how we went from that position to the current one. Cue my answer just above. Life of Brian made Christianism better. Metal music made Christianism better. All of the criticism made Christianism better. Or more “modern”, as you put it.

... What? How do you define "better"? Oh, I see, "modern". Right... and mockery and criticism is a necessity, is it?

Also, you know the correct term is Christianity, don't be stupid.

Hybrid is French, so he was probably using an anglicization of the French term "Christianisme". Calling him stupid for doing so is a bit much.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
Radicals will select particular (often extremely outdated) verses to try and justify their cause.

That is a fallacy. Outdated? What does that even mean here?

Out of interest, what fallacy do you think I'm using here?

There are no outdated verses in the Quran.

Probably unrelated though.

 djones520 wrote:
You know what kills me Hyrbid? Your country has been attacked. Your countrymen have been killed.

These people are still on the lose and free to cause more death and mayhem.

And you're in here attacking everyone else.

Europeans don't have the same notions of Nationalism that you guys have. Most French won't consider these to be acts of war committed against France and that will require some sort of unified national response and solidarity but rather as more normal crimes whose perpetrators need to be apprehended and brought to justice.

 Orlanth wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


And these guys were not amateurs. Whatever group was able to plan this and train these guys wouldn't have any problems getting their hands on weapons no matter what the laws are.

Agreed.


The public reaction is gathering momentum, its called Je suis Charlie (I am Charlie)


This is an online campaign starting, a bit like the massed Draw Mohammed Day protest a few years back, more restrained, but not less defiant.
I agree with its aims, our democratic right to free speech is not for sale, and that needs to be understood and boldly stated in large numbers, and have modded my siggie to include it.

http://news.sky.com/story/1403783/je-suis-charlie-online-solidarity-after-attack

What would be good was if every newspaper in Europe reprinted these cartoons as their front pages tomorrow. THAT would send a message that our right to free speech cannot be stopped by terrorist actions.

This online campaign means less than nothing and accomplishes the same.

 Medium of Death wrote:

Seeing them wandering about the streets makes me wish we had an American style attitude to guns.

It's all well and good saying we don't need them until we need them.

They killed two armed cops in the process, I don't think that armed civilians would have had any effect other than adding themselves to the body count.

Why should we "avoid provocation"? Why should western democracies curb their freedom of speech in any way to try and avoid offending the fragile sensibilities of barbarians that commit acts that are extremely repulsive to our way of life every single day?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Why should we "avoid provocation"? Why should western democracies curb their freedom of speech in any way to try and avoid offending the fragile sensibilities of barbarians that commit acts that are extremely repulsive to our way of life every single day?

Why be an ass about it though? Satire has it's place, but being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational doesn't really achieve anything.

It achieves the goal of showing those people that they cannot make us change our values no matter what terrorist actions they take.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Ah, my only point was not that we shouldn't poke fun at the terrorists, it just that in an uncertain world such as this - look what happens when we use 'crude' satire. If we were to poke fun at them using 'clever' satire it may be more effective and cause less of a backlash. I still support the mocking and degrade of the terrorists, but people need to be more intelligent about it. That was all really.

Then you are curbing our society to their desires.

It isn't defiance if the persons that you are supposed to be defying don't know about it.

 CptJake wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.

So you and Orlanth are happy with the way the current system worked in this case. Again, we will agree to disagree. The current system allowed the scum to carry out their attack and get away from the scene. It is likely to end up with another shootout at another location putting more folks at risk.

That just isn't 'well enough' for me.

One of the cops was armed, there are reports that the terrorists also carried a RPG that they didn't use, so what exact level of armament should the police carry around to handle that type of threat?

Also, it took you guys 4 days to arrest all the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombing. How come your system didn't prevent those terrorists from carrying out their attack, get away from the scene and end up in shoot outs in other locations?

Your system isn't any better than the European one and one could even argue that its a lot worse because it fosters a much heavier militarization of every day police duties so I have no idea where you guys are arguing for it.

 djones520 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

I agree with Orlanth that the current system seems to do well enough. With SWAT being able to escalate quickly into military support or police special forces, which has happened on one occasion in the Netherlands as well as in Spain to combat terrorists. Now its ongoing in France.

So you and Orlanth are happy with the way the current system worked in this case. Again, we will agree to disagree. The current system allowed the scum to carry out their attack and get away from the scene. It is likely to end up with another shootout at another location putting more folks at risk.

That just isn't 'well enough' for me.

One of the cops was armed, there are reports that the terrorists also carried a RPG that they didn't use, so what exact level of armament should the police carry around to handle that type of threat?

Also, it took you guys 4 days to arrest all the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombing. How come your system didn't prevent those terrorists from carrying out their attack, get away from the scene and end up in shoot outs in other locations?

Your system isn't any better than the European one and one could even argue that its a lot worse because it fosters a much heavier militarization of every day police duties so I have no idea where you guys are arguing for it.

You can't exactly compare these two incidents. With the Boston Bombing there was almost nothing to work off of. These guys left clues that were gathered right away.

How would the clues that they left after leaving the scene help the cops in preventing them from leaving the scene?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:


One of the cops was armed, there are reports that the terrorists also carried a RPG that they didn't use, so what exact level of armament should the police carry around to handle that type of threat?

Also, it took you guys 4 days to arrest all the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombing. How come your system didn't prevent those terrorists from carrying out their attack, get away from the scene and end up in shoot outs in other locations?

Your system isn't any better than the European one and one could even argue that its a lot worse because it fosters a much heavier militarization of every day police duties so I have no idea where you guys are arguing for it.

You're comparing a bombing to an active shooter situation...totally different animals. We had Reddit neckbeards trolling macro photos of the marathon looking for suspects, and the internet incorrectly accused the wrong guy. In this case, we have video of the shooters committing the act and we have identification that they dropped at the scene.

Again, what does anything of that has to do with how the US police would have prevented the suspects from leaving the scene in the first place?

 CptJake wrote:


The Boston Marathon was a bombing. At the time of the blast there was no one for cops to chase, no one firing at innocents to engage. Not a good example for you to use at all.

As for the reports of the RPG, so? Again, any armed cops, even with handguns, would have had a chance to slow or prevent the bad guys from breaking contact until reinforcements could arrive. Your armed response cops DID NOT get there in time to prevent the bad guys breaking contact.

So? You said it yourself, the amount of weapons expertise that these guys demonstrated was pretty good. Do you think that, had the cops in that initial patrol car, had given them a bigger challenge with handguns or even small automatic weapons that they wouldn't have deployed the RPG to end that threat? Why do you imagine that they carried the RPG in the first place?

And there was an armed cop in the building, he was the personal security detail for the editor of the newspaper, he accomplished nothing and neither would the cops in the patrol car if they had had heavier weapons, except probably getting themselves killed as well.

You guys always argue for bigger weapons for the cops to carry around, and then complain endlessly about the militarization of your country's police force. What is it? You can't have both you know...

This was a bit much, I apologize.

 djones520 wrote:

I don't complain about it. Notice how the French military is involved in this hunt? It is flat out illegal for the US military to partake in domestic crime issues.

AFAIK no French military are involved in this hunt, both the units mentioned are special police units and not military.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:


Now you're just trolling.

You are right, message removed, I'm sorry for that comment.

 djones520 wrote:
GIGN is military, as far as I am aware.

The GIGN is the National Gendarmerie Intervention Group, they are part of the National Gendarmerie which is a military force whose sole responsibility is police duties. They are a military force indeed but they aren't part of the military, hence my confusion since we don't really consider them to be "real" military.

We have the same thing over here in our Republican Guard (oh, the laughs we had when these guys were deployed to Iraq), they are military organizations but their sole responsibility is police duty.

Normal military cannot be involved in civilian police duties over here as well (well, AFAIK that is).

These guys aren't part of the normal military, their sole purpose is police duty and they answer to the same chain of command as the civilian police (the Minister of the Interior).

I think that you guys in the US don't have an equivalent police force.

The extreme right wing parties all over Europe are already taking advantage of these attacks, with calls to the banishment of Islam in European territory and the closing of borders against outside immigration...

The problem is, these parties were already gaining growing amounts of support and that support will only tend to grow even more as a result of these attacks (annalists now consider it a very real possibility that Le Pen might actually win the next French Presidential elections), making the peaceful Islamic communities of Europe the true end victims of these terror attacks.

The terrorists killed a proof editor of the newspaper who's name was Mustapha Ourrad and the name of the cop that was executed outside was Ahmed Merabet, both of them were Muslim.

It would be a real shame if their killings and those of the rest of the journalists are used as a pretext to advance the cause of the people that they probably despised the most.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
The extreme right wing parties all over Europe are already taking advantage of these attacks, with calls to the banishment of Islam in European territory and the closing of borders against outside immigration...

I guess the outlawing of Islam in Europe is worth a facepalm, but stricter immigration policies? What's wrong with that? Multiple countries across the globe have strict visa regulations in place right now.

But they aren't talking about stricter policies, they are talking about outright shutting down the borders for immigration, hence the facepalm.

I'm not against stricter immigration policies, that would depend on what those policies would be, but that is a talk for another thread especially because all the terrorists involved in these incidents are French Nationals so those policies wouldn't help one bit in preventing these incidents.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If its true that the attackers in the second siege are connected tothe first, then its crazy that they didnt receive a knock on their door over the last two days. Would be an amazing screwup.

They seem to be the same that shot the policewoman yesterday not connected to the newspaper attack.

Also, no one died yet at the supermarket. Latest reports talk about 1 person badly injured.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

reports that a police officer at the scene in Paris says two people are confirmed dead after a gunman (believed to be the killer of the police officer in Montrouge yesterday) entered a kosher supermarket in the Porte de Vincennes area of eastern Paris.

http://m.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-30722098

I counter it with:

Police deny reports of 2 killed in #Paris today; say 1 person wounded, several taken hostage at kosher supermarket http://f24.my/1tSeyny

https://twitter.com/FRANCE24
https://twitter.com/josephbamat/status/553558845298327553

Who knows what news are right or wrong at this moment...

No reports of any casualties amongst the hostages at either site. Great job by the French.

Hope that the bullets that got them were covered in pig blood or something similar.

France Press talked about four dead as well, but has updated it to 4 critically wounded.

Either way, its turning out to be worse than initially reported.

 Ratius wrote:
4 hostages confirmed dead via Sky News and an Irish media outlet.

Yep, France Presse just went back to the 4 dead hostages version... crap.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Do_I_Not_Like_That - I totally agree. I'm not all for immigration, but there needs to be a clear distinction set between innocent peaceful Muslims (The majority I suspect) and these savages. Religion really has little to do with it - it's simply a convenient vehicle to accumulate power and wealth. There needs to be calm analysis - NOT vigilante reprisals.

Agreed. There's no easy answers to this problem. The British bombers on July 7th were all British born and bred, and by all accounts, these terrorists were born and raised in France. It's a big problem that Western society will have to answer. And to be honest, I don't know what that answer is...

The answer is to do what the Germans are doing: any mosque (or any other public worship place), that is found spreading messages inciting to violence is shut down and its Iman arrested on hate crime charges. Any European national that is known to have travelled to terrorist training sites such as Syria is arrested if they return to European soil under charges of terrorism.

 whembly wrote:

But very hard to do... at least, here in the states. There's an extremely high bar to charge someone with incitement. As a practical purpose, it's almost non-existent.

The best recourse is to shine a spotlight on those nutters, and re-emphasize what "freedom of speech/expression" truly means.

On the US that might be true, over here the bar is not so high, like I said, the Germans already did it several times including this one:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/09/germany-hamburg-taiba-mosque

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I thought there were 4 terrorists. The brother and the couple. One from the couple escaped/is at large. There's only three dead terrorists right now right?

That is what it seems. The 4th one is supposedly a women that was involved in the shooting of the Policewoman yesterday but apparently was not in the supermarket where her partner was killed.

And also, it seems like everyone has forgotten about the driver of the getaway car for the two brothers... Or did I miss anything?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

But increasingly, these Terrorists are born and raised in their respective nations, they spent their whole lives living in that culture, living with its values and then something goes wrong.

They don't. They spend their lives living in western nations but they are being taught Islamic values, not Western values.

That is why the places that do that type of teaching, that is completely anathema to western values, need to be shut down.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


I refer you to that case of the American officer who killed all those people.

He was a muslim that had become increasingly radical and again, had ties with known Islamic radicals in Yemen. He had even been referenced for it in the US intelligence agencies. Are you beginning to see a pattern here?

Why did he do it? I don't know and frankly I don't care, I don't think that we need to understand the reasons behind all these cases, we only need to identify the common points and use them to excise these people from our societies.