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Still, sounds like the French police/special forces managed to avoid any further deaths in the twin assaults. That's pretty fething impressive.

Well critically wounded is still better than dead at least. Lets hope they make a full recovery if that report is true.

According to the news around here there are 4 dead hostage takers dead inside of that supermarket. Seems there is another hostage situation going on at a jeweller.

Sure that's not 'hostages' - there seems to have been just the one gunman there?

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Sure that's not 'hostages' - there seems to have been just the one gunman there?

It hasn't been noted anywhere yet. If it's just a robbery or another relinut.

just got home...

Feth. I've spent a lot of time ranting at TV screens this week. All I can say is...I hope their exit from this world was slow, and painful.

Well, I'm glad it's over. Kudos to the police for their dedication and professionalism, and of course, our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends.

But...

The real fight starts now. Many groups, both right wing and radical Islam will seek to capitalise on these events. They want societies divided, people at each other's throats, people hating each other. It suits their agenda. I hope people don't give into hate, it's not easy, emotions will be running high the next few days (I remember the USA after 9/11)

Let's not let hate win...

Seems it was just one guy at the supermarket whom killed the other 3/4, that's sadly 3/4 hostages dead.. Not to sure. They keep on telling different things all the time.

I hope those guys came out as swiss cheeze from all those bullets.

French media say there was one hostage that escaped earlier.

4 hostages confirmed dead via Sky News and an Irish media outlet.

@Do_I_Not_Like_That - I totally agree. I'm not all for immigration, but there needs to be a clear distinction set between innocent peaceful Muslims (The majority I suspect) and these savages. Religion really has little to do with it - it's simply a convenient vehicle to accumulate power and wealth. There needs to be calm analysis - NOT vigilante reprisals.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, I'm glad it's over. Kudos to the police for their dedication and professionalism, and of course, our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends.

But...

The real fight starts now. Many groups, both right wing and radical Islam will seek to capitalise on these events. They want societies divided, people at each other's throats, people hating each other. It suits their agenda. I hope people don't give into hate, it's not easy, emotions will be running high the next few days (I remember the USA after 9/11)

Let's not let hate win...

Absolutely 100% this. Half a dozen heavily armed thugs was what this was, looking to bring murder and chaos to the lives of as many people as possible. The security forces have clearly done all they can, now the rest of us need to stand up to the hate-mongers, that's our job.

 Ratius wrote:
4 hostages confirmed dead via Sky News and an Irish media outlet.

Yep, France Presse just went back to the 4 dead hostages version... crap.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, I'm glad it's over. Kudos to the police for their dedication and professionalism, and of course, our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends.

But...

The real fight starts now. Many groups, both right wing and radical Islam will seek to capitalise on these events. They want societies divided, people at each other's throats, people hating each other. It suits their agenda. I hope people don't give into hate, it's not easy, emotions will be running high the next few days (I remember the USA after 9/11)

Let's not let hate win...

The real fight is to make life extremely difficult and uncomfortable for the craven lunatics who take advantage of these young men, put false promises of eternal life glory in their head, and corrupt them to kill in the name of ancient superstitions best left in the garbage pail of history's bad ideas. We shouldn't be afraid to ridicule horrible ideas. In fact, that's why these cartoonists were murdered.

BBC noted that the casualty figure was unclear. With contradicting reports from French and international media we have tot wait for an official statement, looks grim though.


Edit: seems reporting is moving away from wounded to dead

Hopefully the right will not gain to much from this, it would only make a bad situation worse

French media say that one hostage taker got away earlier. It's a little odd... with that many police around. Apparently the second hostage taker wasn't that woman they spread the picture of but a man instead.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Do_I_Not_Like_That - I totally agree. I'm not all for immigration, but there needs to be a clear distinction set between innocent peaceful Muslims (The majority I suspect) and these savages. Religion really has little to do with it - it's simply a convenient vehicle to accumulate power and wealth. There needs to be calm analysis - NOT vigilante reprisals.

Agreed. There's no easy answers to this problem. The British bombers on July 7th were all British born and bred, and by all accounts, these terrorists were born and raised in France. It's a big problem that Western society will have to answer. And to be honest, I don't know what that answer is...

Yes, BBC said one suspect remains at large. This isn't over yet.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, I'm glad it's over. Kudos to the police for their dedication and professionalism, and of course, our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends.

But...

The real fight starts now. Many groups, both right wing and radical Islam will seek to capitalise on these events. They want societies divided, people at each other's throats, people hating each other. It suits their agenda. I hope people don't give into hate, it's not easy, emotions will be running high the next few days (I remember the USA after 9/11)

Let's not let hate win...

The real fight is to make life extremely difficult and uncomfortable for the craven lunatics who take advantage of these young men, put false promises of eternal life glory in their head, and corrupt them to kill in the name of ancient superstitions best left in the garbage pail of history's bad ideas. We shouldn't be afraid to ridicule horrible ideas. In fact, that's why these cartoonists were murdered.

I think it's too simplistic to blame religion for the all the world's ills. It's not that long ago that Communism was wreaking havoc across the globe - and countless people were prepared to die for that belief, but that's getting slightly OT.

Like I said, it's a society problem. Look at that army officer in the USA that killed those people at Fort Hood? How can you explain or understand that? There's no easy answers.

There may be no answer. Humans are individuals and what some want, others don't. We may never fully harmonise, but at no cost should we ever let people exploit our divisions or beliefs and turn it to pure Murder.

 Darkjim wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, I'm glad it's over. Kudos to the police for their dedication and professionalism, and of course, our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends.

But...

The real fight starts now. Many groups, both right wing and radical Islam will seek to capitalise on these events. They want societies divided, people at each other's throats, people hating each other. It suits their agenda. I hope people don't give into hate, it's not easy, emotions will be running high the next few days (I remember the USA after 9/11)

Let's not let hate win...

Absolutely 100% this. Half a dozen heavily armed thugs was what this was, looking to bring murder and chaos to the lives of as many people as possible. The security forces have clearly done all they can, now the rest of us need to stand up to the hate-mongers, that's our job.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. It took me years to figure out what that really meant...

Well, feth. Let's hope it's over as soon as possible, though.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Do_I_Not_Like_That - I totally agree. I'm not all for immigration, but there needs to be a clear distinction set between innocent peaceful Muslims (The majority I suspect) and these savages. Religion really has little to do with it - it's simply a convenient vehicle to accumulate power and wealth. There needs to be calm analysis - NOT vigilante reprisals.

Agreed. There's no easy answers to this problem. The British bombers on July 7th were all British born and bred, and by all accounts, these terrorists were born and raised in France. It's a big problem that Western society will have to answer. And to be honest, I don't know what that answer is...

The answer is to do what the Germans are doing: any mosque (or any other public worship place), that is found spreading messages inciting to violence is shut down and its Iman arrested on hate crime charges. Any European national that is known to have travelled to terrorist training sites such as Syria is arrested if they return to European soil under charges of terrorism.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, BBC said one suspect remains at large. This isn't over yet.

From what I'm seeing the gunmen from the supermarket and warehouse are dead. So that would leave the girlfriend of the supermarket guy who helped kill the policewoman?

PhantomViper wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Do_I_Not_Like_That - I totally agree. I'm not all for immigration, but there needs to be a clear distinction set between innocent peaceful Muslims (The majority I suspect) and these savages. Religion really has little to do with it - it's simply a convenient vehicle to accumulate power and wealth. There needs to be calm analysis - NOT vigilante reprisals.

Agreed. There's no easy answers to this problem. The British bombers on July 7th were all British born and bred, and by all accounts, these terrorists were born and raised in France. It's a big problem that Western society will have to answer. And to be honest, I don't know what that answer is...

The answer is to do what the Germans are doing: any mosque (or any other public worship place), that is found spreading messages inciting to violence is shut down and its Iman arrested on hate crime charges. Any European national that is known to have travelled to terrorist training sites such as Syria is arrested if they return to European soil under charges of terrorism.

That actually sounds pretty reasonable.

 -Shrike- wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Do_I_Not_Like_That - I totally agree. I'm not all for immigration, but there needs to be a clear distinction set between innocent peaceful Muslims (The majority I suspect) and these savages. Religion really has little to do with it - it's simply a convenient vehicle to accumulate power and wealth. There needs to be calm analysis - NOT vigilante reprisals.

Agreed. There's no easy answers to this problem. The British bombers on July 7th were all British born and bred, and by all accounts, these terrorists were born and raised in France. It's a big problem that Western society will have to answer. And to be honest, I don't know what that answer is...

The answer is to do what the Germans are doing: any mosque (or any other public worship place), that is found spreading messages inciting to violence is shut down and its Iman arrested on hate crime charges. Any European national that is known to have travelled to terrorist training sites such as Syria is arrested if they return to European soil under charges of terrorism.

That actually sounds pretty reasonable.

But very hard to do... at least, here in the states. There's an extremely high bar to charge someone with incitement. As a practical purpose, it's almost non-existent.

The best recourse is to shine a spotlight on those nutters, and re-emphasize what "freedom of speech/expression" truly means.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, I'm glad it's over. Kudos to the police for their dedication and professionalism, and of course, our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends.

But...

The real fight starts now. Many groups, both right wing and radical Islam will seek to capitalise on these events. They want societies divided, people at each other's throats, people hating each other. It suits their agenda. I hope people don't give into hate, it's not easy, emotions will be running high the next few days (I remember the USA after 9/11)

Let's not let hate win...

The real fight is to make life extremely difficult and uncomfortable for the craven lunatics who take advantage of these young men, put false promises of eternal life glory in their head, and corrupt them to kill in the name of ancient superstitions best left in the garbage pail of history's bad ideas. We shouldn't be afraid to ridicule horrible ideas. In fact, that's why these cartoonists were murdered.

I think it's too simplistic to blame religion for the all the world's ills. It's not that long ago that Communism was wreaking havoc across the globe - and countless people were prepared to die for that belief, but that's getting slightly OT.

Like I said, it's a society problem. Look at that army officer in the USA that killed those people at Fort Hood? How can you explain or understand that? There's no easy answers.

Maybe my first post was visceral. I do understand that radicalization is not always caused by religion, and probably never ever caused solely by religion. But too often, religion is the vehicle through which it occurs. We can't fall into the idiocy of the "Coexist bumper-sticker crowd". Religion plays a part in much of modern terrorism...a big part. If it was all flowers and candy and love, noone would care. But its not. And I'm not just talkiung about extreme Islam here. Extreme forms of Christianity have led to domestic terrorism in the US.

IMO, exposing extremist imams, preachers, rabbis, etc, and shifting the zeitgeist so it is mortifying and embarrassing in the extreme to be associated with them is part of the process. These types are all too happy to lead protests, and so forth. Perhaps its time we start leading peaceful protests at their mosques, churches, temples, etc.

Certainly, giving hopeless people a sense of hope, beloging, and security is also a part.

This is indeed not over. One suspect still somewhere, though it is unknown of her role.

Three terrorists dead, but the casualties are still heavy. They got their targets. They killed 4 more hostages.

Yeah, clearly, they have won. This is not a victory at all for the french. Their forces managed to kill the murderers. So what? That's exactly what they expected. Great.

Absolutely not a critic against Raid and GIGN. They made their job as good as they could.

Meanwhile, hype against muslims is just beginning. The lycean suspect is totally innocent. His name seen in the press was the malicious tweet of an irresponsible "journalist" who put him with the others on the same level. Call to murders against him were seen on the social networks. Good thing the police did their job and dropped all charges against him, but...there's still the rumor.

A really bad start for the year.

 whembly wrote:

But very hard to do... at least, here in the states. There's an extremely high bar to charge someone with incitement. As a practical purpose, it's almost non-existent.

The best recourse is to shine a spotlight on those nutters, and re-emphasize what "freedom of speech/expression" truly means.

On the US that might be true, over here the bar is not so high, like I said, the Germans already did it several times including this one:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/09/germany-hamburg-taiba-mosque

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Do_I_Not_Like_That - I totally agree. I'm not all for immigration, but there needs to be a clear distinction set between innocent peaceful Muslims (The majority I suspect) and these savages. Religion really has little to do with it - it's simply a convenient vehicle to accumulate power and wealth. There needs to be calm analysis - NOT vigilante reprisals.

Agreed. There's no easy answers to this problem. The British bombers on July 7th were all British born and bred, and by all accounts, these terrorists were born and raised in France. It's a big problem that Western society will have to answer. And to be honest, I don't know what that answer is...

It's not the Western societies problem, it's Islams problem with the West.