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PhantomViper wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
Radicals will select particular (often extremely outdated) verses to try and justify their cause.

That is a fallacy. Outdated? What does that even mean here?

Out of interest, what fallacy do you think I'm using here?

There are no outdated verses in the Quran.

Oh, ok. Sorry, I was thinking more about the Bible when I wrote that.

It's possible they jacked the car prior, and set it up at a point to swap vehicles.

 d-usa wrote:
A few posts actually talking about a current events, with the rest of the thread already being a gak-slinging contest about "religion is bad/Islam is evil" before we even got to page 2.

Just lock this thread if it can't stay on topic, it's the same thread we locked last week and the week before.

Perhaps you should relax from the censorship.

Yes there will be some who like to turn up with the all 'religion is bad' meme, but Dakka can handle them.

As for comparisons between radical Islam and western society, those comparisons are valid, and should not be redacted out of ignorance.

Part of the problem facing western society is that this type of Islam is very real, it is within western society and it isn't going away. It is also very demanding on what it considers it's own right to propagate doctrines which are mutually exclusive with some freedoms taken forgranted in a modern democratic society.
To make matters worse those who point out the differences are often labeled as agitators, even 'racists' due to a collective fear of the elephant in the room.

I posted a valid point saying there was a direct incompatibility between Western democracy and radical Islam, note the specificity to radical Islam and not Islam as a whole. This was censored in a knee jerk manner.

If this is in any way unclear as to the relevance of this issue Dakka should ask itself why this particular organisation was earmarked for a well planned and professional terrorist attack. Namely it was a Western publishing organisation in the field of satirical politics which extremists have a noted history of wishing to silence by any means necessary. These journalists died because they were unafraid to print what people in a western society are free to print. This gak happens because most people are too afraid to say NO to those who would take away our most inherent and important freedoms. These satirists continued anyway, despite the risks, and paid the price. I salute them.

How is Dakka to commemorate this? Censor the thread in case people are 'offended'. If so it will be our lasting shame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
Not really reserve, more like overwatch. He'll be looking for LEO or others moving in/reacting to the shooters and engaging as needed to allow the shooters to maintain freedom of maneuver.

And they may very well switch roles as needed/as their direction of movement changes.

More or less what I was thinking, I don't know the proper terminology. So overwatch, ok. Reserve is something else yes?

This is likely to get worse before it gets better. If the French police/army do catch up with these rats, then there's likely to be another gun battle, and more likely still, any hideout/base they have is likely to be booby-trapped. I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Out of interest, what is the French equivalent of the SAS?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is likely to get worse before it gets better. If the French police/army do catch up with these rats, then there's likely to be another gun battle, and more likely still, any hideout/base they have is likely to be booby-trapped. I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Out of interest, what is the French equivalent of the SAS?

GIGN, I think.

Its the special operations branch of their armed forces.

 nels1031 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is likely to get worse before it gets better. If the French police/army do catch up with these rats, then there's likely to be another gun battle, and more likely still, any hideout/base they have is likely to be booby-trapped. I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Out of interest, what is the French equivalent of the SAS?

GIGN, I think.

Its the special operations branch of their armed forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie_Intervention_Group

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is likely to get worse before it gets better. If the French police/army do catch up with these rats, then there's likely to be another gun battle, and more likely still, any hideout/base they have is likely to be booby-trapped. I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Out of interest, what is the French equivalent of the SAS?

Its very likely they will not be caught i the immediate future.

These are not mindless fanatics.

Hunting them will be like hunting the IRA, it will take a lot of work and a lot of patience. The ante has really been raised today, especially ad unlike the IRA these terrorists are still in all likelihood radical Islamics unafraid to die with their boots on. Thing is to them, in my opinion at this time, martyrdom is a fallback position.

France doesn't have any recent history of dealing with this sort of terrorist. In Europe only Spain and the UK has adequate expertise.

They used to deal with them in Algeria.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Car bomb at a synagogue outside Paris.
http://www.businessinsider.com/report-sarcelles-synagogue-car-explodes-2015-1

Car has exploded at a Synagog.

http://www.businessinsider.com/report-sarcelles-synagogue-car-explodes-2015-1

Probably unrelated though.

 Orlanth wrote:


France doesn't have any recent history of dealing with this sort of terrorist. In Europe only Spain and the UK has adequate expertise.

I guess I would ask you to define recent. France has recent experience in parts of Africa fighting jihadists, in Afghanistan, and if you go back a few decades were dealing with this problem in some of their colonies.

PhantomViper wrote:
Probably unrelated though.

I hope not... multiple unrelated attacks in one day would indicate serious issues...

Looks like the Scum have declared war.
do we need to deploy armed forces to the cities as a visable deterent and to defend the cities? there brave vs unarmed civilans, how about trained and well armed troops.

they died for the Freedom to express themselves, we should robustly defend the right not yeild to barbarians intent on enforcing there vile concept of law and oppression.

The press should be free to print what it wants with in the law and not have to fear death or attacks because of it,

 Jihadin wrote:
Basically they use verses from the Quran/Koran to justify their action

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/104/html

The above is a summary and this is the conclusion.

So people are funding studies that tell them what they want to hear. Good. So what?

 -Shrike- wrote:
Out of interest, what fallacy do you think I'm using here?

It has already been told (I write my answers right away, and the read the rest of the thread), but the biggest age difference between verses in the Quran is 1406 years old versus 1383 years old. How can some of them be “extremely outdated”? Beside, in religion, how does “old” mean “irrelevant”, as the use of “outdated“ implies?
Do not forget that the Quran is very different from the Bible because it is monolithic and completely canon. There is no apocryphal part of the Quran. There are lots of apocryphal/authentic/whatever debate about hadith, but none about the Quran. Everything was directly worded by God and is perfect in the Quran.
And to think people actually believe this!

 -Shrike- wrote:
However, saying that "Islam is stupid, because of this" is what I was referring to, and it wasn't aimed at you.

You were quoting me quoting you quoting me, but you were not referring to me?

 -Shrike- wrote:
... What? How do you define "better"? Oh, I see, "modern". Right... and mockery and criticism is a necessity, is it?

My use of “modern” was referencing cincydooley's message that somehow Christians did not kill people for heresy because Christianity is “modern”. See http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/630105.page#7483968 . In the message I was quoting. Any differing opinion on the use of the word modern is to be discussed with cincydooley, not with me. He will not talk to me anyway.

 -Shrike- wrote:
Also, you know the correct term is Christianity, don't be stupid.

Also already been told. My French is showing. That mistake comes from the fact that in French, we say Christianisme, not from some attempt at sarcasm or anything. I know that Christianity is the right word, but I do sometime absentmindedly make the mistake.

 Orlanth wrote:
As for comparisons between radical Islam and western society, those comparisons are valid, and should not be redacted out of ignorance.

No, they are not valid. You are comparing a religion and a society. It does not work like that. Compare two religions/belief systems, or two societies. Like for instance “societies from the Arabian peninsula” vs “societies from western European countries”, or “Radical Islam” versus “Humanism”. Those make sense.

 Orlanth wrote:
Namely it was a Western publishing organisation in the field of satirical politics which extremists have a noted history of wishing to silence by any means necessary.

Do you realize how much publishing organization in Muslim-majority countries are pressured and silenced? This “western” here is completely irrelevant, unless you do not care for anyone outside of the western world.

 CptJake wrote:
France has recent experience in parts of Africa fighting jihadists, in Afghanistan, and if you go back a few decades were dealing with this problem in some of their colonies.

You seem to be forgetting very recent operations in Mali. But those were not terrorists, though they were jihadists. Not the same methods.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I am intrigued by this statement. What tangible effect did the Life of Brian, and metal music, have on Christianity to make it "better"?

Tangible effects? Do you mean like in a direct obvious cause-consequence effect? None.

You know what kills me Hyrbid? Your country has been attacked. Your countrymen have been killed.

These people are still on the lose and free to cause more death and mayhem.

And you're in here attacking everyone else.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is likely to get worse before it gets better. If the French police/army do catch up with these rats, then there's likely to be another gun battle, and more likely still, any hideout/base they have is likely to be booby-trapped. I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Out of interest, what is the French equivalent of the SAS?

Its very likely they will not be caught i the immediate future.

These are not mindless fanatics.

Hunting them will be like hunting the IRA, it will take a lot of work and a lot of patience. The ante has really been raised today, especially ad unlike the IRA these terrorists are still in all likelihood radical Islamics unafraid to die with their boots on. Thing is to them, in my opinion at this time, martyrdom is a fallback position.

France doesn't have any recent history of dealing with this sort of terrorist. In Europe only Spain and the UK has adequate expertise.

I'm no IRA fan, but at least they had a clear objective - a united Ireland free from British rule, and as such, at least you could negotiate with them.

Radical Islam is a different kettle of fish - it's nihilism, pure and simple. Violence is the be all and end all. It's difficult to see how you can combat this.

So, djones520, what exactly should I be doing? Going out of my workplace, taking the RER to Paris, and try to go hunt those terrorists without any better weapon than a Swiss army knife and a switchcomb? Go crawl into a corner and cry?

 Orlanth wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
A few posts actually talking about a current events, with the rest of the thread already being a gak-slinging contest about "religion is bad/Islam is evil" before we even got to page 2.

Just lock this thread if it can't stay on topic, it's the same thread we locked last week and the week before.

Perhaps you should relax from the censorship.

I don't think I have singled you out, but if you feel personally attacked then that is on you.

I also have no problem with people talking about what motivated "these" guys to do "this" thing. Idiots take up idiotic causes for idiotic reasons. If these guys are motivated by some religious cause and/or were hired by idiots who were motivated by some religious cause then by all means it is perfectly valid to talk about those things. My beef is with the blanket statements about religions and blanket statements about people who follow different religions.

And if you think "stay on topic" is censorship then why did you join a forum where that is a requirement for the privilege of posting?

Edit: This is a horrific attack, and I hope these guys are caught and more importantly if there is a connection higher up the chain, which is probably very likely, we catch them alive so that they can track that.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, djones520, what exactly should I be doing? Going out of my workplace, taking the RER to Paris, and try to go hunt those terrorists without any better weapon than a Swiss army knife and a switchcomb? Go crawl into a corner and cry?

Of course not. But maybe do something other then attack others who have expressed sympathy for your nations loss.

All you've done it tell us what we can and can't talk about. You do realize that falls in line with what these people are doing, right?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm no IRA fan, but at least they had a clear objective - a united Ireland free from British rule, and as such, at least you could negotiate with them.

Radical Islam is a different kettle of fish - it's nihilism, pure and simple. Violence is the be all and end all. It's difficult to see how you can combat this.

No. Radical Islam usually have a goal too. Most of the time along the line of a worldwide caliphate where everyone is forced to abide to Sharia law. But no violence, of course, because Sharia law is perfect and everyone will be happy when it is put in place and you will get the most perfect society ever.
Does that seem ridiculous to you? Certainly. Does that mean some people do not actually, genuinely believe this? I would not be surprised if more evil was done by people mistakenly thinking they were working for some higher cause to improve the life of everyone in the end than by genuinely evil people.

 djones520 wrote:
You know what kills me Hyrbid? Your country has been attacked. Your countrymen have been killed.

These people are still on the lose and free to cause more death and mayhem.

And you're in here attacking everyone else.

Europeans don't have the same notions of Nationalism that you guys have. Most French won't consider these to be acts of war committed against France and that will require some sort of unified national response and solidarity but rather as more normal crimes whose perpetrators need to be apprehended and brought to justice.

 CptJake wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


France doesn't have any recent history of dealing with this sort of terrorist. In Europe only Spain and the UK has adequate expertise.

I guess I would ask you to define recent. France has recent experience in parts of Africa fighting jihadists, in Afghanistan, and if you go back a few decades were dealing with this problem in some of their colonies.

Algeriam as Frazzie mentioned, and French Indo-China were long ago, and things were different in the 60's and those serving then are retired now.

As for African jihadists, they are fairly similar to most other jihadists, with limited training mostly concentrated on religious indoctrination to bolster them to commit to an attack. The perpetrators here were far more professional, it is not unlikely that they served a term in a professional army, possibly even the French army.

France like most western countries practices equal opportunities, and does allow Frenchmen of middle eastern origin to serve, I will also assume that the clear majority of those who do so are loyal to France. Also due to the nature of radicalisation one or more of the gunmen involved today may have been a genuine loyal soldier, who was radicalised, or even converted after e left the service.

Then again none of the terrorists were necessarily French at all. With an opertion this professional, they could be radicals from anywhere in Europe, or even outside Europe.

 d-usa wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
A few posts actually talking about a current events, with the rest of the thread already being a gak-slinging contest about "religion is bad/Islam is evil" before we even got to page 2.

Just lock this thread if it can't stay on topic, it's the same thread we locked last week and the week before.

Perhaps you should relax from the censorship.

I don't think I have singled you out, but if you feel personally attacked then that is on you.

I also have no problem with people talking about what motivated "these" guys to do "this" thing. Idiots take up idiotic causes for idiotic reasons. If these guys are motivated by some religious cause and/or were hired by idiots who were motivated by some religious cause then by all means it is perfectly valid to talk about those things. My beef is with the blanket statements about religions and blanket statements about people who follow different religions.

And if you think "stay on topic" is censorship then why did you join a forum where that is a requirement for the privilege of posting?

Edit: This is a horrific attack, and I hope these guys are caught and more importantly if there is a connection higher up the chain, which is probably very likely, we catch them alive so that they can track that.

Probably the best post so far in this thread.

 Orlanth wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


France doesn't have any recent history of dealing with this sort of terrorist. In Europe only Spain and the UK has adequate expertise.

I guess I would ask you to define recent. France has recent experience in parts of Africa fighting jihadists, in Afghanistan, and if you go back a few decades were dealing with this problem in some of their colonies.

Algeriam as Frazzie mentioned, and French Indo-China were long ago, and things were different in the 60's and those serving then are retired now.

As for African jihadists, they are fairly similar to most other jihadists, with limited training mostly concentrated on religious indoctrination to bolster them to commit to an attack. The perpetrators here were far more professional, it is not unlikely that they served a term in a professional army, possibly even the French army.

France like most western countries practices equal opportunities, and does allow Frenchmen of middle eastern origin to serve, I will also assume that the clear majority of those who do so are loyal to France. Also due to the nature of radicalisation one or more of the gunmen involved today may have been a genuine loyal soldier, who was radicalised, or even converted after e left the service.

Then again none of the terrorists were necessarily French at all. With an opertion this professional, they could be radicals from anywhere in Europe, or even outside Europe.

Mali, as recent as within the last couple of years.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
France has recent experience in parts of Africa fighting jihadists, in Afghanistan, and if you go back a few decades were dealing with this problem in some of their colonies.

You seem to be forgetting very recent operations in Mali. But those were not terrorists, though they were jihadists. Not the same methods.

Sorry, I was under the impression Mali was in Africa. And I would really like to see where the methods used between what we are seeing now and what groups like Ansar Dine , MUJWA, an AQIP are using.

I submit the scale may be different (in some cases) but the methods are pretty damned similar.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
This is likely to get worse before it gets better. If the French police/army do catch up with these rats, then there's likely to be another gun battle, and more likely still, any hideout/base they have is likely to be booby-trapped. I hope I'm wrong, but there's nothing more dangerous than a cornered rat.

Out of interest, what is the French equivalent of the SAS?

Its very likely they will not be caught i the immediate future.

These are not mindless fanatics.

Hunting them will be like hunting the IRA, it will take a lot of work and a lot of patience. The ante has really been raised today, especially ad unlike the IRA these terrorists are still in all likelihood radical Islamics unafraid to die with their boots on. Thing is to them, in my opinion at this time, martyrdom is a fallback position.

France doesn't have any recent history of dealing with this sort of terrorist. In Europe only Spain and the UK has adequate expertise.

The IRA are fethwits people who shoot other people are ffethwits. I;m not sure what point you are making but i;m sure it involves fethwits somewhere. I'm sure for the IRA martyrdom was a fallback position as well.

 djones520 wrote:
All you've done it tell us what we can and can't talk about. You do realize that falls in line with what these people are doing, right?

Are you equating debate, “you should not say this because of this reason and that reason”, and censorship, “if you say that we are going to kill you”?

Am I trying to convince people? Sure, I am. Other people should do the same with me. We will discuss, debate, and maybe in the end one of us is going to convince the other. Or both of us are going to partly convince the other. Or anything in between. How is that in any way comparable to killing people? I have no clue.

PhantomViper wrote:

Europeans don't have the same notions of Nationalism that you guys have. Most French won't consider these to be acts of war committed against France and that will require some sort of unified national response and solidarity but rather as more normal crimes whose perpetrators need to be apprehended and brought to justice.

This. It's a harsh blow, and I'm actually remotely related to one of the killed caricaturists, but our nation and way of life aren't at stake. If you ask me though, I think we should contract the interrogations to the Mossad, I'm sure they'll welcome the practice.

Swear filter seems to have missed one in your post, Bullockist.

 HudsonD wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Europeans don't have the same notions of Nationalism that you guys have. Most French won't consider these to be acts of war committed against France and that will require some sort of unified national response and solidarity but rather as more normal crimes whose perpetrators need to be apprehended and brought to justice.

This. It's a harsh blow, and I'm actually remotely related to one of the killed caricaturists, but our nation and way of life aren't at stake. If you ask me though, I think we should contract the interrogations to the Mossad, I'm sure they'll welcome the practice.

Yeah, because torture is awesome.

* i fixed the swears