How should we treat new players?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Yesterday I brought out my dwarves, dusted them off, and headed down to get an order of thunderers, and hopefully a game. Luckily, there was an opportunity.
A guy had brought down a splodge of grennskins and we worked out a 1000 points (he had to borrow an armybook and it was his first proper game).
He had a bunch of night gobbos, a few savage orks, a boar chatriot , an aracknaroc thingy with a launcher thing, a rock lobba and a savage hero lord thing.
I had a thane (75 points of runes) 24 thunderers command shields, 20 longbeards with shields and GW and command.
I had 2 cannons, both with forging, one with fire and an organ gun with accuracy.
Basically I killed every one of his models for about 4 longbeards and 2 thunderers.
He looked so sad, and the whole thing was just an extended guilt trip called at turn 4.
I fell like I may have accidently turned away a new player (he plays 40k already though).
Please help!

**docdoom77**

I don't know what you could have done if that's the army you had with you, but that many guns in 1000 pts for someone's first game was bound to have this exact result.

Maybe talk to the guy about playing again when you can bring something a little friendlier?

**Shas'O Dorian**

You don't want to crush new players. But you also shouldn't throw the game & hand them wins. I'm of the opinion you should treat those games as teaching games, but ask first. Don't just start correcting them, some people want the trial by fire but I find it works to say "Hey, since you're new would you like me to offer advice during the game?"

If you see them make a mistake, don't say that was wrong, don't kick them in the teeth for it, ask them politely what they're trying to accomplish. Then let them know that may be a huge mistake and offer to let them try again or ask if they'd like your opinion on what to do. If they want to stick to their move let them, and capitalize on it, but don't just crack them with the ruler.

Also don't show up with a tournament list, new players rarely understand that level of synergy. Instead take this game to bring those models you normally wouldn't, Coven throne, Flagellants, Jezzails etc.

Again don't hand them the game, they'll never learn. But don't table them turn 3 either they don't really learn from that either.

**SilverDevilfish**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Yesterday I brought out my dwarves, dusted them off, and headed down to get an order of thunderers, and hopefully a game. Luckily, there was an opportunity.
A guy had brought down a splodge of grennskins and we worked out a 1000 points (he had to borrow an armybook and it was his first proper game).
He had a bunch of night gobbos, a few savage orks, a boar chatriot , an aracknaroc thingy with a launcher thing, a rock lobba and a savage hero lord thing.
I had a thane (75 points of runes) 24 thunderers command shields, 20 longbeards with shields and GW and command.
I had 2 cannons, both with forging, one with fire and an organ gun with accuracy.
Basically I killed every one of his models for about 4 longbeards and 2 thunderers.
He looked so sad, and the whole thing was just an extended guilt trip called at turn 4.
I fell like I may have accidently turned away a new player (he plays 40k already though).
Please help!

Gonna assume his big cool spider monster didn't get to do jack squat before being cannon'd to oblivion on turn 1 or 2? That might have something to do with it.

**Bottle**

I'm a new player, gonna to be playing my first game in a GW next weekend if all goes to plan. Im fully expecting to lead my army to brutal defeat. Can't wait

**CREEEEEEEEED**

SilverDevilfish wrote:
CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Yesterday I brought out my dwarves, dusted them off, and headed down to get an order of thunderers, and hopefully a game. Luckily, there was an opportunity.
A guy had brought down a splodge of grennskins and we worked out a 1000 points (he had to borrow an armybook and it was his first proper game).
He had a bunch of night gobbos, a few savage orks, a boar chatriot , an aracknaroc thingy with a launcher thing, a rock lobba and a savage hero lord thing.
I had a thane (75 points of runes) 24 thunderers command shields, 20 longbeards with shields and GW and command.
I had 2 cannons, both with forging, one with fire and an organ gun with accuracy.
Basically I killed every one of his models for about 4 longbeards and 2 thunderers.
He looked so sad, and the whole thing was just an extended guilt trip called at turn 4.
I fell like I may have accidently turned away a new player (he plays 40k already though).
Please help!

Gonna assume his big cool spider monster didn't get to do jack squat before being cannon'd to oblivion on turn 1 or 2? That might have something to do with it.

Yeah, died from stand and shoot when charging the thunderers, it only had one wound. It was probably a dick move on my part.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bottle wrote:
I'm a new player, gonna to be playing my first game in a GW next weekend if all goes to plan. Im fully expecting to lead my army to brutal defeat. Can't wait

That's the spirit

, but I hope you win and good luck.

**Bottle**

Getting shot to pieces before you can even get across the board doesn't sound that fun for a newb or a vet though... Hopefully my men will see combat!

**StormKing**

You brought to much shooting lol
I mean that's how it works a lot of the time but I always try to go easy on new players.

I usually bring my normal skaven list (2500 points but sometimes lower if the guy is just starting out) and I'll stop during the game and be like "are you sure you want to deploy that way" give a few suggestions. "You might not want to move those guys there and instead do X".
Things like that. Especially if its their first few games its very helpful to them if you give them suggestions along the way because that way they learn during the game not just at the end.

It can work the other way around tho and just tell them at the end what they should have done. But I like to give suggestions during the game and they can choose what they want after I explain the options.
I didn't mind loosing when I first started playing but sometimes people get discouraged so I don't like to demolish people because I want to welcome people into the game and let them learn slowly in a friendly environment (not saying destroying someone isn't friendly its just not as fun for the new player lol)

**AnomanderRake**

Like you treat any player? Politely.

For new players specifically don't run the tournament lists, ask them if they're okay with analyzing the game a bit, and ask them why they're doing something if you see them doing something dumb.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

I understand where you guys are coming from, but I don't have many options in my army, mainly 'cause I don't have huge amounts of models, only 2000 points worth, so I only left a gyrobomber and a tiny unit of warriors in my case for the 1000 points.

**StormKing**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I understand where you guys are coming from, but I don't have many options in my army, mainly 'cause I don't have huge amounts of models, only 2000 points worth, so I only left a gyrobomber and a tiny unit of warriors in my case for the 1000 points.

That's fine that you don't have a huge variety. Just maybe next time talk him through what his options are for dealing with your units etc. I generally play first games with people to teach them. If they loose they loose if they win they win and most of the time they are happy I gave them instruction throughout the game.

You can always do a breakdown at the end of the game if you want but during the game is better cause you won't forget every move that is made.

**Vetril**

Swap armies for the game.

**thejughead**

You could have chosen not to shoot 0_o

**Haight**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

I fell like I may have accidently turned away a new player (he plays 40k already though).
Please help!

Please don't take this wrong, but by tabling someone in their first game, this is probably exactly what you did.

Rules to live by with new players:

1) If you're giving the demo, always lose the demo.

2) If someone says with wide eyed anime glee "THIS IS MAH FURST GAYM!", put away the competitive cuthroat list and take out the casual stuff, or the models you love but have god awful rules.

3) Help them during the game, don't continue to grind your heel into their enthusiasm until it resembles fine paste. Wait until, i dunno, game 4 to do this.

Because likely this guy is looking at the couple hundred bucks he spent on 1k points of gobbos and thinking one or more of the following things.

1) feth this game.

2) Dwarven guns are broken, dwarves are op

3) my guys suck, this game must be pay to win

4) that wasn't fun

5) feth this game.

6) I'm going back to 40k and never looking back

7) feth this game.

I'm sure you didn't mean this, but this is probably what happened. I used to demo warmachine for people several years back. I was a nationally placing hardcore player. I always somehow miraculously managed to lose EVERY DEMO i ever gave to every warmachine newb. Why ? A win makes 'em want more. First "real" game ? ALways lost those too, oddly enough. Why ? A win makes 'em want more.

Tabling a new player during a demo or their first game doesn't make them want more. It makes them think that WHFB, a game that already has a lean playerbase to begin with, is a stupid game and not worth picking up. Which is a shame, because its a great game, totally worth picking up, and goddamn, you have to work like hell against someone who has no clue what they're doing to table someone in it.

EDIT: Minor edit, okay missed that it was 1k.... it's not hard to table someone in a 1k game, especially if you get momentum going. I retract that part.

-- Haight

**Argive**

Bad Creeeeeed.. BAD!!!!!

On a serious note, I get some people play competitively... but c'mon man don't ego trip on games vs new guys or friendly games.
If you want to prove something save it for tourney I guess...
Playing cheesy armies would 100% make me now want to play someone again (unless its a competition/tourney)

If you seriously had no other units then what you brought kind of fair enough. But if you did and you chose to use OP stuff then...
Just coz you can humiliate and beat someone in 99% cases does not mean you should.

Imagine if you went down to a local boxing gym and got thrown in the ring with a pro/semi pro guy and he beat you senseless. Would you wanna go back to that same gym? Doubt it.

Hmmm I'm being preachy so I'll stop... :S

Getting obliterated just somehow does not seem like a fun experience for the guy. I could be wrong..

**docdoom77**

I liked the switching armies idea.

"I'll play you man, but the stuff I have is pretty competitive for starting out. Why don't you run my army and I'll run yours. Just to get a feel for the game?"

**carlos13th**

In general treat people how you would want to be treated if it's your first game.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

This is the first time I've been told I have a competitive list (I'm pleased, but at the same time weirdly sad because I love to play 4 de Lolz and I've never entered a WHFB tourney)
In terms of the boxer analogy, I would keep coming back until I win, but that's just 'cause I find it hard to accept someone beating me in a fight, but I see your point.
Oh well, hopefully the dude didn't run though the thoughts Haight listed.

**AllSeeingSkink**

I remember one of the first games of 40k I played (was already collecting Fantasy) and got blown off the table by an Eldar player (2nd edition). It pretty much stopped me collecting 40k for a few years because I thought "well this game is boring" (I don't think I got a single unit in to close combat, or it might have gotten there then died instantly, it was a while back now I don't remember the particulars

).

The worry about blowing someone away with a gunline in fantasy is not simply that you defeated them, but it's a very boring way to wipe someone off the board and if it gives them the impression WHFB is just about rolling a bunch of dice and removing the models you spent hours painting... it just paints a very boring picture of WHFB.

If you had crushed him through careful outmanoeuvring and getting your key units in combat with his weaker units I think it would have been fine if you wiped him, as it'd show him it's a tactical game that you actually have to learn to play.

But just blowing him off the table with a gunline is pretty harsh.

**Accolade**

I think the other problem you have is the Dwarf gun line army, which doesn't play like most Fantasy armies in that you just sit there and shoot. It's a pretty typically reviled list, which is sad because dwarfs are cool, it's just the play style that people typically don't like to go up against.

**thedarkavenger**

I know this will sound harsh and counterproductive, but the best way to treat/play new players is not to play dwarfs.

They're an army which does one thing very well, and if the dice are average for you, then he might not get much of a game.

The best way to play New players is to take a balanced list which features no broken gimmicks and doesn't excel in any particular phase to the point of ruining the game.

**targetdg15**

As a new player (less than a month in, but played warmachine for years) the best thing to do is explain everything. Tell me it's a stomps list upfront, tell me why, explain how things go together and point out ways I can give you a run for your money.

A game is only really a loss to a newbie if he doesn't learn anymore than when he started. It's not on you to go easy on him.... It's on you to help him learn so you don't have to go easy on him in the future

**CREEEEEEEEED**

thedarkavenger wrote:
I know this will sound harsh and counterproductive, but the best way to treat/play new players is not to play dwarfs.

*quiet sob and gasp*
Yeah, your probably right, I just spent the game explaining why my guns are making his models go splat.
Oh, allseeingskink, the dude hadn't painted any of the models, but still.
I have an old empire battalion with minimal shoots stuff, but without the new book, should I bring that down to my FLGS more often?(problem is I have no idea how to use it)

**Pyeatt**

Haight wrote:

1) If you're giving the demo, always lose the demo.

HERESY!!! Win. But try to make it look close. Remind them that newbies wont win for a bit, just like 40k.

6) I'm going back to 40k and never looking back

Good call on him if so. Then again, they tainted 40k with your magic phase which is truly dumb.

**Haight**

Pyeatt wrote:
Haight wrote:

1) If you're giving the demo, always lose the demo.

HERESY!!! Win. But try to make it look close. Remind them that newbies wont win for a bit, just like 40k.

6) I'm going back to 40k and never looking back

Good call on him if so. Then again, they tainted 40k with your magic phase which is truly dumb.

Nope. Let them win. Especially the demo. It's more open for debate on the first game, i usually let them win that, but i agree that's more open for debate.

Demo? Always let them win. Always.

Losses make one think about the skill curve, barrier to entry, etc. A win makes one think "Is the model that just did that awesome thing on the shelf right now? It is ? Excuse me while i go buy it, could you stay here, because i have a billion more questions on this game... "

I mean, i'm being hyperbolic, of course everything is open for debate, but there is absolutely no question in my mind, if you are trying to hook someone into a game, you let them win the demo so they end the experience on a high, good note. You don't let them lose and reinforce what is a natural outcome of any gaming situation (though the slightly less positive one of the two) with an even more less positive outcome of "Newbs gone get stomped".

If you want them to pick the game up then and there (assuming they like it and had fun), you let them win the demo. Period. Someone who has a close game but loses will go "oh that games neat". Someone who wins their demo doing something really cool has a much larger chance to immediately go pick the game up.

With all due respect, internet tone is going to make this come off probably more douschey than i truly mean it.... but do you have any real work (non-retail) sales experience ? Or have you worked in a game store setting on behalf of a game company as a representative (pressganger, outrider when those were a thing, or what have you) ? If not, sales professionals will probably see aspects of what i'm talking about above, and if anyone's been a pressganger or outrider, i bet most of them would agree with me. YOu want to let the demoee end as high as possible while still having the experience look believable. You are recruiting someone into a game. You are hopefully hooking a lead for your store. Demos are sales tools. Essentially the person getting the demo is a qualified sales lead, and you as the demoer are making a sales pitch.

If you are selling a car, you don't take it for a test spin on fumes and let it run out of gas because "Ya know, that can happen if you don't fill it up."

If you're not doing it from that aspect and you're just showing someone the ropes of a game, sure the win or loss might not matter for you, but from a business perspective, you want to keep the demoee asking questions which you answer, but also end with open ended questions (to keep demoee talking), and you want them to end the demo experience as positive as possible. Because you want them to walk (as i mentioned) right over to the shelf and pick out purchases then and there.

Just my experience.

On the topic of our filthy magic phase. Pffft. Fantasy is such a better game. Your psychic phase (yup, "your", as i play tau for 40k, haha!) only just grew up and became more than guns with crappy profiles that they had been for a couple editions.

--- Haight

EDIT: horrible grammer, spelling, and general sense making on my part. It's early and I haven't had coffee.

**Pyeatt**

It makes NO sense to have a filthy magic phase at all.

Why should my buddy casting a spell keep me from casting a spell? It made sense before. Every spell went off during a phase based on what it does, and it went off each psykers leadership. (which is simulating willpower)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways, theres absolutely nothing in the OP's post to deem this a "demo" game. The guy brought his own army. He may not have had the books, but he'd already committed in.

**Experiment 626**

Dwarfs are the army you play when you want to ensure both players walk away from the table feeling miserable.

It's just the stunties' nature to make everyone hate their own life as much as they do!

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Pyeatt wrote:
Anyways, theres absolutely nothing in the OP's post to deem this a "demo" game. The guy brought his own army. He may not have had the books, but he'd already committed in.

Yeah, I feel like people are sort of forgetting this. Thanks.

Minor spelling edit

**Accolade**

Pyeatt wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways, theres absolutely nothing in the OP's post to deem this a "demo" game. The guy brought his own army. He may not have had the books, but he'd already committed in.

Right, which is why Haight said "IF you are giving a demo game," along with all the other advice he put in about new players. Nobody is forgetting it, it was just a side conversation in that post.

**Me Like Burnaz**

I'm a new player, got about a year under my belt now, and I can't count the number of devastating defeats I have had. I've had a few slim victories and until last night not a one overwhelming table smashing victory. It takes a while to get these kind of games down, learn the rules and figure out what play style and lists work for you. I've finally decided on doing variations of Mek Mobs instead of Green Tide formations.

I've gotten down a few times around turn three our four when I was down to a couple of nobs, a handful of boys and my vehicles all smoking wrecks. The last fight against a Nid endless swarm formation that ate my ENTIRE ARMY and beat me into the ground was painful and at turn 4 I was about ready to call it, take my models and toss them in a chipper shredder. But you learn something from every battle you fight and I learned that green tide wasn't my thing.

So I tossed out all my lists and started over with a new idea. More vehicles and as much template as I could get on the field. I've also learned to do a better job of target selection and efficient use of resources. I credit the folks here for giving me a lot of good ideas.

Finally, after a year of getting my butt kicked I had a decisive victory against a force of Nids in the battle type I hate the most, Purge the Alien. Smashed him into the ground and used his psyker's heads for drinking goblets! WAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!

If he can't take a smashing defeat and learn from it then maybe this isn't the game for him. I'd talk to him and make sure he understands that overwhelming defeats happen no matter how long you've been playing. The Nid player who rubbed my nose in the dirt last week was getting his just deserts at the hands of a Dark Eldar force in a drubbing equal to the one he handed out to me. What comes around, goes around.