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So Eldar get all the hate, mainly because of Wave Serpents. So I put the question out there-
What do you think is wrong with them? And how do you think they should be changed?

From what the general consensus is, the main issue only really arrives when they are taken in obscene numbers. Two Wave Serpents doesn't provide an enormous amount of grief.
But regardless, down to the fluff, perhaps shooting the 'Serpent Shield' should be a once-per game thing, and then you use it. So you can use it as a defence all game, but when you shoot it, it is completely gone for the rest of the game.
Yes in lists with 6 Wave serpents this is still pretty strong, but I think it would be unfair to completely change/remove it because then it effects the players who only use one or two of them.

Do you agree, or am I being over-sympathetic towards it? Let me know

Their biggest issue is they can put out more fire power than a LR crusader and are border line more survivable. They are also drastically cheaper and the basic eldar transport. What they need is either an increase in points or a sever nerfing of the serpent shield.

The biggest problem is that the Serpent Shield is supposed to be a tradeoff between offense and defense, but the emphasis fighting vehicles has moved away from the one-shot-hope-to-explode and more onto stripping hull points so the difference between a Penetrating and a Glancing hit is academic most of the time, so there's never any incentive not to fire the Serpent Shield.

My suggestion is to make it so the Wave Serpent can't Jink after firing its Serpent Shield, make it an actual trade-off.

Put Guardians back to BS3

Act like Laser Lock never existed.

Reduce the Shield to 12" range, or less.

I would keep it mostly the same but reduce the range of the Shield to 12". I would also make it so that if the shield is fired, it cannot be fired again the following turn (so it can only be used every other turn as it "recharges"). To compensate for the nerf, though, I would suggest allowing the shield to be used in overwatch (since it's supposed to be a defensive weapon), but no other weapons can be used as well (so no laser locking it).

 AnomanderRake wrote:


My suggestion is to make it so the Wave Serpent can't Jink after firing its Serpent Shield, make it an actual trade-off.

Probably the best idea. Like the Serpent has to recharge the shield and therefore can't Jink next turn or something. That way you have to think "If I fire the shield, I'm probably going to loose the transport, will it be worth it?"

 Azreal13 wrote:
Put Guardians back to BS3

Act like Laser Lock never existed.

Reduce the Shield to 12" range, or less.

BS4 Guardians Make perfect sense. In my head, for a super-sensitive race like the Eldar, it makes sense that they are as good at shooting as an enhanced human. Saying that a member of the Eldar is as accurate as a Human guardsman isn't a particularly accurate comparison.
Laser Lock only really effects a Wraithknight, Wraithlord, War walker, Falcon and Wave serpent. Nothing else can take it. And to be fair it provides Twin-Linked to an army with barely any of it, other than twin-linked shuriken catapults and twin-linked wave serpent weapons.
But yeah, a 12" range shied would also make a lot of sense. Or maybe even like a 6" nova power, after all you are blasting a shield out.

Is it this time of the month again?

My pref is, Keep it as is but nerf the shield to 12" range.

We can deal with hullpointing out the tank.

Actually i like that nova idea a lot (though mabye 8")

It's range is far to long and it should not ignore cover. It should also be a 1 shot weapon, once it's fired the shield should be down the rest of the game.

Make the shield's gun 12'' range. Anything less doesn't address the core issue and anything more is an over-nerf.

Done, next topic.

 Desubot wrote:
Is it this time of the month again?

I just got tired of my post about Drop-Pods being too cheap, everyone just brought up wave serpents.
I thought that a nerf thread might make me understand their point a bit better

If the Shield concept is to be kept, just make it an invul save. The whole silly thing about it being a "cannon" came from its Epic incarnation, IIRC before it was ever a transport, and when Armorcast made the only 40k model for it, just drop that whole concept

Make it a 5+ invul like the War Walkers. That way Jink still has a purpose, the wargear still fits in nicely with other unit's shields, and the shield still has value in providing a level of protection against any and all incoming fire (including Ignores Cover weapons), or if the Wave Serpent chooses not to jink. Maybe drop 10pts off the base cost then?

Yeah, I think the range nerf (12 seems right, wouldnt mind 6) has the broadest support.

Probably the most widely-supported in-codex change.

 Vaktathi wrote:
If the Shield concept is to be kept, just make it an invul save. The whole silly thing about it being a "cannon" came from its Epic incarnation, IIRC before it was ever a transport, and when Armorcast made the only 40k model for it, just drop that whole concept

Make it a 5+ invul like the War Walkers. That way Jink still has a purpose, the wargear still fits in nicely with other unit's shields, and the shield still has value in providing a level of protection against any and all incoming fire (including Ignores Cover weapons), or if the Wave Serpent chooses not to jink. Maybe drop 10pts off the base cost then?

That is actually a really good idea.

I'd be down with dropping the serpent shield mechanics entirely and just giving it a 5+ invuln.

So long as it goes down to ~70 points in cost, maybe 80. Without the shield its worth is nowhere near 105 points.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd be down with dropping the serpent shield mechanics entirely and just giving it a 5+ invuln.

So long as it goes down to ~70 points in cost, maybe 80. Without the shield it's nowhere near worth 105 points.

70pts effectively Chimera priced. With the huge advantages of Jink on demand (with access to wargear that enhances that), on top of being Fast and having AV12 sides and twin linked BS4 weapons, with an innate 5+ invul, 70-80pts would be a drastic steal.

Move Wave Serpents back to a Heavy selection, and make Falcons the go-to DT. Also, get ride of Jink. That what solve most problems.

SJ

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd be down with dropping the serpent shield mechanics entirely and just giving it a 5+ invuln.

So long as it goes down to ~70 points in cost, maybe 80. Without the shield it's nowhere near worth 105 points.

70pts effectively Chimera priced. With the huge advantages of Jink on demand (with access to wargear that enhances that), on top of being Fast and having AV12 sides and twin linked BS4 weapons with an innate 5+ invul, 70-80pts would be a drastic steal.

I'd forgotten that the Chimera was bumped up to 65 (lulz, GW). But that said I think 80 points is perfectly fair. One of those "twin linked BS4 weapons" is str 4 and the other is an AP4 multi-laser with 12'' less range. It also has zero fire-points -thus your troops have to actually disembark to do anything- so I think the skimmer rules and +1 AV on the side is a fair trade up for 80 points base.

edit- I wouldn't mind seeing the side-AV go down a notch, actually. The damn thing is a troop-carrier, not a tank.

 TWilkins wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Put Guardians back to BS3

Act like Laser Lock never existed.

Reduce the Shield to 12" range, or less.

BS4 Guardians Make perfect sense. In my head, for a super-sensitive race like the Eldar, it makes sense that they are as good at shooting as an enhanced human. Saying that a member of the Eldar is as accurate as a Human guardsman isn't a particularly accurate comparison.
Laser Lock only really effects a Wraithknight, Wraithlord, War walker, Falcon and Wave serpent. Nothing else can take it. And to be fair it provides Twin-Linked to an army with barely any of it, other than twin-linked shuriken catapults and twin-linked wave serpent weapons.
But yeah, a 12" range shied would also make a lot of sense. Or maybe even like a 6" nova power, after all you are blasting a shield out.

Well, fluff =\= rules, so simply because Eldar could be considered more accurate, on a 10 point, D6 system, the jump is too big. Secondly, Guardians are ordinary Eldar, Guardsman are professional human soldiers, so even from a fluff perspective there's an argument for some parity.

But, and this is a biggie, Guardians were BS3 for over 20 years and got changed for no fathomable reason

Equally, Eldar get twin linked everywhere, they just need to use a psychic power to get it, and the fact that two of the units you mention are amongst the worst excesses of the book, I still think there's a compelling argument against it in entirety, but I chiefly meant removing it as an option from the WS.

Its weird but I think the Eldar should actually keep the AV where its at, this game already has too many transports that are soap bubbles. The shield itself... should just be scrapped OR just prevent pens, THEN make the current Incarnation a Heavy Support option at 145 points.

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, I think the range nerf (12 seems right, wouldnt mind 6) has the broadest support.

Probably the most widely-supported in-codex change.

Agreed -- range nerf is the simplest, and makes the most sense. A DT just shouldn't have tank-like firepower.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd be down with dropping the serpent shield mechanics entirely and just giving it a 5+ invuln.

So long as it goes down to ~70 points in cost, maybe 80. Without the shield it's nowhere near worth 105 points.

70pts effectively Chimera priced. With the huge advantages of Jink on demand (with access to wargear that enhances that), on top of being Fast and having AV12 sides and twin linked BS4 weapons with an innate 5+ invul, 70-80pts would be a drastic steal.

I'd forgotten that the Chimera was bumped up to 65 (lulz, GW). But that said I think 80 points is perfectly fair. One of those "twin linked BS4 weapons" is str 4 and the other is an AP4 multi-laser with 12'' less range. It also has zero fire-points -thus your troops have to actually disembark to do anything- so I think the skimmer rules and +1 AV on the side is a fair trade up for 80 points base.

edit- I wouldn't mind seeing the side-AV go down a notch, actually. The damn thing is a troop-carrier, not a tank.

It's +2 AV on the side next to a Chimera (they've always hide side AV10) on top of being 65pts now (they really did put the hurt on the poor Chimera with the last codex)

Still, the Chimera's weapons are less impressive in general and are only hitting 50% of the time instead of nearly 90% of the time, with far fewer upgrade options (especially as the Wave Serpents weapons are almost all the same price). Even a Devilfish, though it enjoys Skimmer benefits as well, is not Fast, is also BS3 (and most of its weapons are not Twin Linked), has side AV11 instead of 12, and shorter ranged weaponry, and no Shield system at all, also has no fire points, and is 80pts base.

Remove the gun shield, it should never have been there in the first place. It's a DT, not an indestructible hovering gun platform. Reduce price greatly, make the shield re-roll pens, make the Falcons/Fire Prism do their actual jobs as gunships. It's not even like they're bad, it's just that the WS is so overshadowingly good that the rest doesn't matter.

The idea of the shield is it used as a last resort. As such my change is as follows (and the few Eldar players I've talked to love it).

In the shooting phase, instead of firing its weapons, a Wave Serpent may "fire" its energy shield. If it does so, all units (friend and foe) within 6" must take a Pinning test. Until the start of its next Movement phase, the Wave Serpent has the Assault special rule. Additionally, any unit that disembarked in the previous Movement phase may charge, as if they had disembarked from a vehicle with the Assault Vehicle special rule.

Wordy, I know.

This does two of things.
First, since it is done in lieu of shooting, so no twin-linking shenanigans and strips the Serpent of its most deadly "weapon".
Second, it makes Howling Banshees (and Striking Scorpions to a lesser extent) usable again, as now they have a way to get delivered to the enemy safely.

I have to give credit here in this thread. There are multiple acceptable solutions coming from Eldar players.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd be down with dropping the serpent shield mechanics entirely and just giving it a 5+ invuln.

So long as it goes down to ~70 points in cost, maybe 80. Without the shield it's nowhere near worth 105 points.

70pts effectively Chimera priced. With the huge advantages of Jink on demand (with access to wargear that enhances that), on top of being Fast and having AV12 sides and twin linked BS4 weapons with an innate 5+ invul, 70-80pts would be a drastic steal.

I'd forgotten that the Chimera was bumped up to 65 (lulz, GW). But that said I think 80 points is perfectly fair. One of those "twin linked BS4 weapons" is str 4 and the other is an AP4 multi-laser with 12'' less range. It also has zero fire-points -thus your troops have to actually disembark to do anything- so I think the skimmer rules and +1 AV on the side is a fair trade up for 80 points base.

edit- I wouldn't mind seeing the side-AV go down a notch, actually. The damn thing is a troop-carrier, not a tank.

The Devilfish is 80 points. It can't get guns above S5 AP5 (except 2 one shot seeker missiles), isn't Fast, has AV12-11-10, also has no fire points and it is BS3.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd be down with dropping the serpent shield mechanics entirely and just giving it a 5+ invuln.

So long as it goes down to ~70 points in cost, maybe 80. Without the shield it's nowhere near worth 105 points.

70pts effectively Chimera priced. With the huge advantages of Jink on demand (with access to wargear that enhances that), on top of being Fast and having AV12 sides and twin linked BS4 weapons with an innate 5+ invul, 70-80pts would be a drastic steal.

I'd forgotten that the Chimera was bumped up to 65 (lulz, GW). But that said I think 80 points is perfectly fair. One of those "twin linked BS4 weapons" is str 4 and the other is an AP4 multi-laser with 12'' less range. It also has zero fire-points -thus your troops have to actually disembark to do anything- so I think the skimmer rules and +1 AV on the side is a fair trade up for 80 points base.

edit- I wouldn't mind seeing the side-AV go down a notch, actually. The damn thing is a troop-carrier, not a tank.

A BA razorback with assault cannon is av11/11/10, is not a skimmer, therefore lower movement and no jink, has less shots, has 24" range, carries 4 less models and is 85pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP. I have always preferred the idea you mentioned. If the shield is used to shoot, it is one use and then cannot therefore be used in defense again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
The idea of the shield is it used as a last resort. As such my change is as follows (and the few Eldar players I've talked to love it).

In the shooting phase, instead of firing its weapons, a Wave Serpent may "fire" its energy shield. If it does so, all units (friend and foe) within 6" must take a Pinning test. Until the start of its next Movement phase, the Wave Serpent has the Assault special rule. Additionally, any unit that disembarked in the previous Movement phase may charge, as if they had disembarked from a vehicle with the Assault Vehicle special rule.

Wordy, I know.

This does two of things.
First, since it is done in lieu of shooting, so no twin-linking shenanigans and strips the Serpent of its most deadly "weapon".
Second, it makes Howling Banshees (and Striking Scorpions to a lesser extent) usable again, as now they have a way to get delivered to the enemy safely.

However, this ^ solves multiple problems at once. The only issue I have with it is that it becomes the fastest most durable assault vehicle in the game of the defensive part is still kept. Av12, changing all glances to pens and 3+ jink on a model with fast skimmer movement rates is too difficult to take down if ot is also an assault vehicle. I would say this is fine on the proviso that the WS did not jink in the previous turn.

I've never really heard a lot of complaints about the defensive capabilities. It's usually more about the offensive capabilities.

Of course I was perfectly fine with the Str 9+ is treated as Str 8, and opponent doesn't get extra Armour Pen dice (including the bonus roll for Ordnance).

Remove the stupid and poorly conceived rule on Scatter Lasers allowing you to fire out of sequence then twin link everything else subsequently.

If that rule went, Eldar would be much more sensible.

Today I've fought a 500 points battle against my SW friend. My army was a WS with 10 guardians and an autarch , a vyper and 6 bikes. His was a runic priest, 2 (almost full)squads of GH one in a rhino and 3 TWC.

The wave serpent did all the job, didn't roll lower than 5 on the shield shots. It Killed the TWC in 2 turns, 3rd popped the rhino, 4th killed half of a GH squad and pinned it, 5th killed half of the other. I lost 4 bikes in total, he had 4 marines and the priest left at the end of 5th.

I mean maybe I was incredibly lucky but it just didn't feel alright that a transport could deal such damage. The best course of action would be to reduce the point cost and forget about shooting the shield. Just let it be a durable transport like it should have been.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Well, fluff =\= rules, so simply because Eldar could be considered more accurate, on a 10 point, D6 system, the jump is too big. Secondly, Guardians are ordinary Eldar, Guardsman are professional human soldiers, so even from a fluff perspective there's an argument for some parity.

But, and this is a biggie, Guardians were BS3 for over 20 years and got changed for no fathomable reason

Equally, Eldar get twin linked everywhere, they just need to use a psychic power to get it, and the fact that two of the units you mention are amongst the worst excesses of the book, I still think there's a compelling argument against it in entirety, but I chiefly meant removing it as an option from the WS.

Guardians are still trained on regular basis and most of the guardians have centuries of fighting experience and training, many more than any guardsmen could ever achieve. Add to this the innate superior biology to a normal human it makes all the sense of the world to give guardians BS4, and even more for the vehicles since eldar technology is supposed to be vastly superior and therefore, more accurate.

Plus reducing attributes of the guardians would force to reduce their points. They are supposed to be the last remnants of a dying race, you are not supposed to field blobs of them like they were guardsmen.

Yes chap, I'm aware. In reality, Guardsman should probably have a BS of 2.8 and Guardians 3.3, but the system isn't in small enough increments to allow that.

Making carpenters, sculptors, musicians and chefs who are only pressed into service when the need is great the same shooting accuracy as Aspect Warriors, who dedicate all of their time for centuries to nothing but fighting and humanity's finest genetically enhanced super humans is just too far, both in a fluff sense and a rules one.

Nobody was calling for Guardians to be WS/BS 4 before the current book, and it wasn't needed to make the current book good.