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My BA bikes will probably be shooting some grav guns at some Ork Mek Guns (artillery unit, so T7, W2, 3+ save) in the near future. For reference, the crew has a 6+ save.

How should we resolve the roll to wound?

I've been reading some discussions and most seem to argue that you'd roll against the majority save (i.e. crew with 6+). But if I shoot the bolters I'll be rolling against the guns stat (good luck with that).

Perhaps I should just take plasma guns instead....

If you're shooting the artillery unit they are not the guns armor save and toughness. If you charge them, they're the crews armor save

Grav rules are not clear about this (just like they aren't clear about shooting units with mixed saves)

Best answer is to try and follow normal wounding rules which for artillery is to use the artillery's profile (and for mixed saves use majority "save")

Gunners have armor -, guns have armor 3+. IIRC gunners get only toughness benefits and don't get a 3+ armor save, so you're wounding on majority armor save which is - if there are more gunners than guns. Means you're wounding on 6-s.

I think you're right, I think I remember the techmarine gets the 2+ artificer save and not the 3+ armor save from the TFC

The TFC has T4 too but you to roll against T7 when shooting the unit.

Right. It seems those fething grots are pretty well protected.

They're t2 without armor in mellee however. Also, ld5 so flanking them and killing 1-2 grots with bolter fire will likely make the squad run off board.

If you shoot at the unit, then you're shooting at the guns, i.e. T7, W2, 3+.

But yes - melee is also the solution I imagined.

You're shooting at the closest model.

That's not how I read the rules, but unfortunately I don't have my rulebook ATM.

 koooaei wrote:
You're shooting at the closest model.

So? grav doesn't say it wounds based on the closest model's armor save.

We're talking about flanking with bolters.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You're shooting at the closest model.

So? grav doesn't say it wounds based on the closest model's armor save.

I think this was still themed: "Shoot at the grots from the side with Boltguns."

They can't use the 3+ as the closest model is the one that makes the save.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You're shooting at the closest model.

So? grav doesn't say it wounds based on the closest model's armor save.

I think this was still themed: "Shoot at the grots from the side with Boltguns."

They can't use the 3+ as the closest model is the one that makes the save.

correct

I'm confused. What toughness am I rolling against if I eg. land an assault squad (jump packs) behind the unit and flame the crew?

In shooting you always roll to wound on the artillery's toughness but you still allocate wounds to the closest model

You always use the Guns T for shooting and the Crews T for assault. We have literally no rules for how to use Grav guns against mixed saves units. The majority save seems the best option as that follows the normal rules for to wound rolls (which the grav roll replaces) I see no reason why we wouldn't do the same here. Thus you'd wound against the save of the Artillery piece.

No matter how you resolve this you are making a HYWPI as there is literally no hint in the rules as to how grav works against mixed saves.

I'm confused. What toughness am I rolling against if I eg. land an assault squad (jump packs) behind the unit and flame the crew?

You roll to wound vs T7 of the artillery piece.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You always use the Guns T for shooting and the Crews T for assault. We have literally no rules for how to use Grav guns against mixed saves units. The majority save seems the best option as that follows the normal rules for to wound rolls (which the grav roll replaces) I see no reason why we wouldn't do the same here. Thus you'd wound against the save of the Artillery piece.

No matter how you resolve this you are making a HYWPI as there is literally no hint in the rules as to how grav works against mixed saves.

I'm confused. What toughness am I rolling against if I eg. land an assault squad (jump packs) behind the unit and flame the crew?

You roll to wound vs T7 of the artillery piece.

But don't gravguns specifically state they wound against majority armor save?

Nope.

We always play that since you always roll to wound versus the toughness of the artillery piece regardless of the number of crew, you also roll to wound versus the armour save of the artillery piece regardless of the armour save of the crew. However, in a mixed unit of non-artillery models, we use the majority save.

We feel this fits the fluff a little better. After all, the grav gun is more effective against "heavy" things and armor. Presumably, if you fire it at an artillery piece that is swarming with grots, the artillery piece is going to "rumble around, bouce up and down and maybe fall over". This might kill several grots in the process. The artillery piece might not be damaged, but would certainly make killing grots easier versus if a unit solely made up of grots was slung around.

Well feth me. I just looked in the Ork Codex. Apparently, gretchin don't have an armor save.

Now what?

Grav guns use 6+ for models without an armor save as listed in the gravitation rule.

Personally I would say it wounds against the Gun for Shooting

The Gravitation rule changes the actual to wound roll rather than what you roll to wound against, but the Artillery doesn't exactly say you roll to wound against the Gun IMO it's close enough. Mixed saves follows the same logic, it says roll against majority toughness so everyone has accepted majority save as the answer and should do the same that if it says Gun Toughness then use Gun save.

You have no special permission to use the armour save of the artillery piece for the crew or visa versa. When shooting at the artillery unit the toughness of the artillery piece is always used, so T7. Grav guns do not wound against toughness, but instead against armour of the target, there is no special permission to use the armour save of the gun itself in this instance however so it would be the toughness of the closest model right? The key to artillery is that is uses the toughness of the gun, not its armour save.

 Melcavuk wrote:
You have no special permission to use the armour save of the artillery piece for the crew or visa versa. When shooting at the artillery unit the toughness of the artillery piece is always used, so T7. Grav guns do not wound against toughness, but instead against armour of the target, there is no special permission to use the armour save of the gun itself in this instance however so it would be the toughness of the closest model right? The key to artillery is that is uses the toughness of the gun, not its armour save.

There is no rule for grav to wound on the save of the closest model either. Thats the problem. Grav rules only cover units that have the same save, but has no rules at all when shooting at a unit with mixed armor saves in it.

That's why most people play with the same rules normal wounding has (majority toughness, artillery's toughness, etc.) because it fits with the intended point of normal wounding rules (since grav is just a different way of rolling to wound)

So back to the original question, you -always- shoot at the gun's stats but still allocate to closest model first.

As per page 64 of the Core section titled "Shooting at Artillery"

AkiraSovu wrote:
So back to the original question, you -always- shoot at the gun's stats but still allocate to closest model first.

As per page 64 of the Core section titled "Shooting at Artillery"

At the gun's toughness if there's still at least one present.

Seeing as the only thing we have to work with are precedents when it comes to grav guns and mixed saves, I'd go with wounding artillery on a 3+ in this case. The obvious answer that many people use besides "ermahgherd wat do? 40k just broke" is that Grav weapons wound on the majority armor save of a unit, just as other shooting attacks wound on the majority toughness. In the case of artillery however, the artillery rules override the normal majority toughness rules and state that units shooting against an artillery unit always wound against T7. Since all we can do is draw analogues for shooting against mixed saves with grav weapons, I would think that since you roll to wound against the artillery's T7 no matter how many other models are in the unit, that grav would wound against the 3+ artillery save, no matter how many other models are in the unit. Obviously this is not RAW as we have nothing but precedence and analogues to work with, but just my two cents and HIWPI

 Melcavuk wrote:
You have no special permission to use the armour save of the artillery piece for the crew or visa versa. When shooting at the artillery unit the toughness of the artillery piece is always used, so T7. Grav guns do not wound against toughness, but instead against armour of the target, there is no special permission to use the armour save of the gun itself in this instance however so it would be the toughness of the closest model right? The key to artillery is that is uses the toughness of the gun, not its armour save.

Whilst most of this has been covered above I'm tackling the underlined part. No rules ever tell you to use the closest Toughness. In no circumstances does the closeness of a Toughness value have ANY bearing on what you roll to wound on.

You use majority Toughness in most cases. If there is no majority you use the highest value from the split majority. Against Artillery you always use the Guns Toughness.

So a unit with 3 models who are T3 & 1 model that is T5 but who is nearest to the firing unit is still treated as T3.

A unit that has 2 Models that are T4 & closest to the firer 2 Models that are T5 and 1 model that is T3. Would be treated as T5 for the shooting attack.

As discussed by others we have no rules at all as how to treat Grav weapons against units with mixed saves. Thus we normally play that anything that is true for mixed T is true for mixed saves as we have literally nothing else to go on.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
You have no special permission to use the armour save of the artillery piece for the crew or visa versa. When shooting at the artillery unit the toughness of the artillery piece is always used, so T7. Grav guns do not wound against toughness, but instead against armour of the target, there is no special permission to use the armour save of the gun itself in this instance however so it would be the toughness of the closest model right? The key to artillery is that is uses the toughness of the gun, not its armour save.

Whilst most of this has been covered above I'm tackling the underlined part. No rules ever tell you to use the closest Toughness. In no circumstances does the closeness of a Toughness value have ANY bearing on what you roll to wound on.

You use majority Toughness in most cases. If there is no majority you use the highest value from the split majority. Against Artillery you always use the Guns Toughness.

So a unit with 3 models who are T3 & 1 model that is T5 but who is nearest to the firing unit is still treated as T3.

A unit that has 2 Models that are T4 & closest to the firer 2 Models that are T5 and 1 model that is T3. Would be treated as T5 for the shooting attack.

As discussed by others we have no rules at all as how to treat Grav weapons against units with mixed saves. Thus we normally play that anything that is true for mixed T is true for mixed saves as we have literally nothing else to go on.

I am not contesting the reasonable House Rule way to play here. But is there any solid reason not to play RAW? That would mean rolling 1 die at a time and dealing with each model one at at a time.

And if we are granting an exception to following RAW in this case then what is the specific principled reason for doing so?