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(Hopefully I put this in the right place)

Tyranids are best well known for the mindless ingestion of anything and everything they can get their claws on. They're also heading straight for the centre of the 40K universe which would mean that unless something happens that completely eradicates them all, at some point some of those fleets will run into each other.

I've been discussing it with a couple of mates of mine and so far we have two major schools of thought.

1) The Hive Mind has complete control over them and once everything they could consume was gone, they'd turn around and head for another galaxy.

or

2) Because each fleet would most likely have different genetic make-ups depending on what they faced, due to the fact that depending which direction they came from, they'd have to face different challenges and thus evolve to overcome them, these differences in how they look, act and generally exist would be far too great to avoid them attacking one another and consuming each other down to the very last surviving Tyranid.

My question to you, is what outcome do you think is most likely?

In one of the ciaphus cain books this happened with a tyranid attack being disrupted by another hive fleet remains that had been discovered buried in ice from millenia ago the new hive actively hunted the older hive which defended itself

It's more likely that the Hive Fleets would assimilate one another, taking the genetic advancements, adaptions, and biomass of each and combining them into one Hive Fleet that was more massive/deadly than either on its own.

Yes that would be the most logical i find. The stronger one survives - effectively making both forces stronger, because no biomass is lost in the fight. Unless someone intervenes shortly after they fought, in which case they would be very vulnerable. But given some time, all biomass is reabsorbed and the forces replenished from that biomass.

I believe the fluff (I don't recall where) says they will turn on each other, and this also seems the most logical thing to me. Survival of the fittest, natural selection and all that.

Hive Fleet Kraken, or what was left of it, actively searched out Hive Fleet Leviathan to pass on the genetic material of every race in the galaxy. To combine and unite and further the Hive Mind goals of noms. Craftworld Iyanden prevented this at Valedor I think. And that's an official GW Apocalypse campaign. About as close to canon as we get in this game. There might be some discrepancies, but overall, the Tyranids are all one thing and looking to be re absorbed and pass on what they know and learned and the adaptations they have made. Otherwise, each new Hive Fleet that showed up would be exactly the same as Behemoth.

Yeah this is pretty much the plot of the novella Valedor.

2 Hive fleets converge on a planet, destroy all the humans then fight with eldar. once the first eldar attack is repelled they start stripping the planet of all biomass, gribblies from both fleets get dumped in digestion pools, bigger critters fight (and also get dumped into pools). They start making the spires to feed it all to the remaining hive ships until the eldar bring a second wave.

so the the smaller weaker hive fleet is consumed in its entirety.

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
Yeah this is pretty much the plot of the novella Valedor.

2 Hive fleets converge on a planet, destroy all the humans then fight with eldar. once the first eldar attack is repelled they start stripping the planet of all biomass, gribblies from both fleets get dumped in digestion pools, bigger critters fight (and also get dumped into pools). They start making the spires to feed it all to the remaining hive ships until the eldar bring a second wave.

so the the smaller weaker hive fleet is consumed in its entirety.

It also confirms that while the Tyranids all share a single Hive Mind, different fleets seem to work on slightly different frequencies (for lack of a better way of putting it), and it can take a few days for those frequencies to mesh together properly. The larger the scale of connection, the longer it takes (i.e. a particularly powerful Hive Tyrant on the surface was able to take command of its own Kraken beasts and those of Leviathan instantly, but the Leviathan fleet took a lot longer to completely take control of the Kraken fleet in space).

It is presumably that time-delay before the fleet minds link up that leads to the inter-fleet fighting we sometimes see.

Any chance that this delay in communication could lead to some hinting that one fleet might possibly be older and thus more closely connected to the Hive Mind?

you sure the Hive mind operates on a universal scale (everything controlled by one mind) , and not just per fleet basis (each "queen")?

The only good bug... is a dead bug.

 Keep wrote:
you sure the Hive mind operates on a universal scale (everything controlled by one mind) , and not just per fleet basis (each "queen")?

That's a very good point, I'm not sure. In all the stuff I've read it's always been a powerful force that's been detected. Has there ever been any solid proof that it was all coming from the same source?

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 Keep wrote:
you sure the Hive mind operates on a universal scale (everything controlled by one mind) , and not just per fleet basis (each "queen")?

That's a very good point, I'm not sure. In all the stuff I've read it's always been a powerful force that's been detected. Has there ever been any solid proof that it was all coming from the same source?

All of the more recent material is very consistent in depicting it as a single universal network composed of every individual creature within the synapse network, so yes

Addressed in Codex Tyranids 4th Ed. It says that the two would fight to see which set of genetic traits are superior. The winner assilimates the loser and its dead, losing absolutely 0 biomass and resources in the end, and the winner now gains the strong traits of the loser while editing out the weak ones and gaining genetic information from foes the loser has acquired. All in all, a complete and utter win-win situation for the Tyranids in every possible sense.

You can't possibly fight and absorb the loser without losing resources. You have to burn energy to fight and to digest and reassemble new bioforms. That energy has to come from somewhere - and since these are biological beasts it's usually from breaking down organic material.

Both fleets would throw their entire store of stockpiled energy and material into the fight - only an all-out battle proves which is superior. The winner emerges smaller but with new knowledge and templates.

Spetulhu wrote:
You can't possibly fight and absorb the loser without losing resources. You have to burn energy to fight and to digest and reassemble new bioforms. That energy has to come from somewhere - and since these are biological beasts it's usually from breaking down organic material.

Both fleets would throw their entire store of stockpiled energy and material into the fight - only an all-out battle proves which is superior. The winner emerges smaller but with new knowledge and templates.

Yea, that's why the Tyrannids don't really make sense since they'd be losing biomass all the friggin time, not to mention how often they get blown up in space.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
You can't possibly fight and absorb the loser without losing resources. You have to burn energy to fight and to digest and reassemble new bioforms. That energy has to come from somewhere - and since these are biological beasts it's usually from breaking down organic material.

Both fleets would throw their entire store of stockpiled energy and material into the fight - only an all-out battle proves which is superior. The winner emerges smaller but with new knowledge and templates.

Yea, that's why the Tyrannids don't really make sense since they'd be losing biomass all the friggin time, not to mention how often they get blown up in space.

Exactly. Welcome to 40K!

Spetulhu wrote:
You can't possibly fight and absorb the loser without losing resources. You have to burn energy to fight and to digest and reassemble new bioforms. That energy has to come from somewhere - and since these are biological beasts it's usually from breaking down organic material.

Both fleets would throw their entire store of stockpiled energy and material into the fight - only an all-out battle proves which is superior. The winner emerges smaller but with new knowledge and templates.

Extra-galactic biological beasts. They don't necessarily follow the same system as we do where energy is lost between each trophic level of an ecosystem. Suspend your disbelief and imagine that being super-adaptive and highly efficient as they are, they are capable of developing a metabolism that produces basically no waste from consuming and ingesting biomass to assembling new biomass, that the system is so efficient none is wasted.
The other side is that every description of Tyranids notes how they basically lose nothing from their dead. These writers aren't scientists, and the only thing worse than their knowledge of physics is their knowledge of biology. The only science they are good in is handwaviology. For example, Space Marine creation. Normally, implanting genetic organs from another being (ie, a Primarch, as that is what the DNA of the geneseed is based on) would result in the immune system attacking and eating it, which is why transplants must come from a compatible donor, which are just similar enough to "fool" the body if you like. But obviously, a Primarch is incredibly different to a human, so the body would no doubt destroy it. The writers wave this away by saying they are just straight up compatible, or that "Space MArine organs are too tough to be destroyed by human immune system." There's also the issue that the end-product Space Marine would have 2 DNAs, one for the organs and 1 for his natural parts, and by all rights, his enhanced Astartes white blood cells should target the non-astartes stuff as it has different DNA.

 Deadshot wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
You can't possibly fight and absorb the loser without losing resources. You have to burn energy to fight and to digest and reassemble new bioforms. That energy has to come from somewhere - and since these are biological beasts it's usually from breaking down organic material.

Both fleets would throw their entire store of stockpiled energy and material into the fight - only an all-out battle proves which is superior. The winner emerges smaller but with new knowledge and templates.

Extra-galactic biological beasts. They don't necessarily follow the same system as we do where energy is lost between each trophic level of an ecosystem. Suspend your disbelief and imagine that being super-adaptive and highly efficient as they are, they are capable of developing a metabolism that produces basically no waste from consuming and ingesting biomass to assembling new biomass, that the system is so efficient none is wasted.
The other side is that every description of Tyranids notes how they basically lose nothing from their dead. These writers aren't scientists, and the only thing worse than their knowledge of physics is their knowledge of biology. The only science they are good in is handwaviology. For example, Space Marine creation. Normally, implanting genetic organs from another being (ie, a Primarch, as that is what the DNA of the geneseed is based on) would result in the immune system attacking and eating it, which is why transplants must come from a compatible donor, which are just similar enough to "fool" the body if you like. But obviously, a Primarch is incredibly different to a human, so the body would no doubt destroy it. The writers wave this away by saying they are just straight up compatible, or that "Space MArine organs are too tough to be destroyed by human immune system." There's also the issue that the end-product Space Marine would have 2 DNAs, one for the organs and 1 for his natural parts, and by all rights, his enhanced Astartes white blood cells should target the non-astartes stuff as it has different DNA.

Its not about efficiency. Its about physics.

Uh, then why are they so hungry all the time? The space marine organ thing is much easier to believe than the 100% efficient thing. There isn't even any handwavium lore to back it up.

 Frazzled wrote:
Its not about efficiency. Its about physics.

Yea, I'm not exactly an expert on the subject but it seems like having 100% efficient Tyrannids would break some fundamental laws of thermodynamics.

The Hive Mind is the Tyranid race so why would one need to absorb the other, it should just know what it needs to do to evolve itself rather than eat itself.

But yeah, they would eat each other which kinda seems dumb to me.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Hive Mind is the Tyranid race so why would one need to absorb the other, it should just know what it needs to do to evolve itself rather than eat itself.

But yeah, they would eat each other which kinda seems dumb to me.

I think each fleet has its own hive mind since the hive mind is just their collective consciousness. So it'd be kinda like two ant hives of the same species (?) encountering one another. It does seem weird that they have to absorb an entire hive though. It'd make more sense to just absorb a proto-type of each new creature.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

I think each fleet has its own hive mind since the hive mind is just their collective consciousness. So it'd be kinda like two ant hives of the same species (?) encountering one another. It does seem weird that they have to absorb an entire hive though. It'd make more sense to just absorb a proto-type of each new creature.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

All hive fleets are just tendrils of the approaching Tyranid race

it's a little like this, the red is the Tyranid



They're only given names by the Imperium to determine which fleet they are fighting.

Oh I see, it's just one Hive Mind. Well then, hive fleets having to consume one another in their entirety is kinda stupid then.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
You can't possibly fight and absorb the loser without losing resources. You have to burn energy to fight and to digest and reassemble new bioforms. That energy has to come from somewhere - and since these are biological beasts it's usually from breaking down organic material.

Both fleets would throw their entire store of stockpiled energy and material into the fight - only an all-out battle proves which is superior. The winner emerges smaller but with new knowledge and templates.

Extra-galactic biological beasts. They don't necessarily follow the same system as we do where energy is lost between each trophic level of an ecosystem. Suspend your disbelief and imagine that being super-adaptive and highly efficient as they are, they are capable of developing a metabolism that produces basically no waste from consuming and ingesting biomass to assembling new biomass, that the system is so efficient none is wasted.
The other side is that every description of Tyranids notes how they basically lose nothing from their dead. These writers aren't scientists, and the only thing worse than their knowledge of physics is their knowledge of biology. The only science they are good in is handwaviology. For example, Space Marine creation. Normally, implanting genetic organs from another being (ie, a Primarch, as that is what the DNA of the geneseed is based on) would result in the immune system attacking and eating it, which is why transplants must come from a compatible donor, which are just similar enough to "fool" the body if you like. But obviously, a Primarch is incredibly different to a human, so the body would no doubt destroy it. The writers wave this away by saying they are just straight up compatible, or that "Space MArine organs are too tough to be destroyed by human immune system." There's also the issue that the end-product Space Marine would have 2 DNAs, one for the organs and 1 for his natural parts, and by all rights, his enhanced Astartes white blood cells should target the non-astartes stuff as it has different DNA.

Its not about efficiency. Its about physics.

Efficiency is physics. And its about the efficiency of the metabolism of the creatures, which is actually more biology than physics. At the end of the day, the answer remains that the writers are not versed in the hard and fast rules of science, and this is a game aimed at 12 year olds with more spare cash than brain cells and the inability to question the failings of the fiction.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

All hive fleets are just tendrils of the approaching Tyranid race

it's a little like this, the red is the Tyranid



They're only given names by the Imperium to determine which fleet they are fighting.

Oh I see, it's just one Hive Mind. Well then, hive fleets having to consume one another in their entirety is kinda stupid then.

Not at all. Perhaps a useful analogy is your nervous system in your body. Some nerves control your right arm. Others control your left arm. It's all one nervous system connected to the same brain, but the nerves in the left arm cannot control the right arm.

Of course the Valedor novel explores this a bit and shows that in the Tyranids case if you put the left arm and the right arm next to one another then after a while the nerves do start to talk to one another and eventually merge together... but that's besides the point.

 Deadshot wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
You can't possibly fight and absorb the loser without losing resources. You have to burn energy to fight and to digest and reassemble new bioforms. That energy has to come from somewhere - and since these are biological beasts it's usually from breaking down organic material.

Both fleets would throw their entire store of stockpiled energy and material into the fight - only an all-out battle proves which is superior. The winner emerges smaller but with new knowledge and templates.

Extra-galactic biological beasts. They don't necessarily follow the same system as we do where energy is lost between each trophic level of an ecosystem. Suspend your disbelief and imagine that being super-adaptive and highly efficient as they are, they are capable of developing a metabolism that produces basically no waste from consuming and ingesting biomass to assembling new biomass, that the system is so efficient none is wasted.
The other side is that every description of Tyranids notes how they basically lose nothing from their dead. These writers aren't scientists, and the only thing worse than their knowledge of physics is their knowledge of biology. The only science they are good in is handwaviology. For example, Space Marine creation. Normally, implanting genetic organs from another being (ie, a Primarch, as that is what the DNA of the geneseed is based on) would result in the immune system attacking and eating it, which is why transplants must come from a compatible donor, which are just similar enough to "fool" the body if you like. But obviously, a Primarch is incredibly different to a human, so the body would no doubt destroy it. The writers wave this away by saying they are just straight up compatible, or that "Space MArine organs are too tough to be destroyed by human immune system." There's also the issue that the end-product Space Marine would have 2 DNAs, one for the organs and 1 for his natural parts, and by all rights, his enhanced Astartes white blood cells should target the non-astartes stuff as it has different DNA.

It doesn't matter if they're extra galactic, physics still stands, specifically thermodynamics. It doesn't matter how hard you try, you always lose energy by any action. By attacking another Hive Fleet, they'd be trading energy for information, with the energy lost in the titanic battle and digestion of the enemy biomass coming to a net loss. There's also nothing in Tyranid fluff to suggest that they generate free energy, mainly because if they were capable of 100% efficiency, then they wouldn't be Tyranids as they wouldn't need to eat.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It doesn't matter if they're extra galactic, physics still stands, specifically thermodynamics. It doesn't matter how hard you try, you always lose energy by any action. By attacking another Hive Fleet, they'd be trading energy for information, with the energy lost in the titanic battle and digestion of the enemy biomass coming to a net loss. There's also nothing in Tyranid fluff to suggest that they generate free energy, mainly because if they were capable of 100% efficiency, then they wouldn't be Tyranids as they wouldn't need to eat.

Exactly, they don't really make sense if you think too hard about it and no amount of handwavium would help if they were 100% efficient since that would break the faction as we know it.

Xyptc wrote:
Not at all. Perhaps a useful analogy is your nervous system in your body. Some nerves control your right arm. Others control your left arm. It's all one nervous system connected to the same brain, but the nerves in the left arm cannot control the right arm.

Of course the Valedor novel explores this a bit and shows that in the Tyranids case if you put the left arm and the right arm next to one another then after a while the nerves do start to talk to one another and eventually merge together... but that's besides the point.

They still end up losing a lot of energy by consuming one another so it's still not very efficient. And if the nerves communicate then why do they have to consume one another?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
It doesn't matter if they're extra galactic, physics still stands, specifically thermodynamics. It doesn't matter how hard you try, you always lose energy by any action. By attacking another Hive Fleet, they'd be trading energy for information, with the energy lost in the titanic battle and digestion of the enemy biomass coming to a net loss. There's also nothing in Tyranid fluff to suggest that they generate free energy, mainly because if they were capable of 100% efficiency, then they wouldn't be Tyranids as they wouldn't need to eat.

Exactly, they don't really make sense if you think too hard about it and no amount of handwavium would help if they were 100% efficient since that would break the faction as we know it.

If they were 100% efficient, then they'd still be a curious species of insectoid reptiles stuck on their homeworld that never found the need to evolve past their current niche.

 Wyzilla wrote:
If they were 100% efficient, then they'd still be a curious species of insectoid reptiles stuck on their homeworld that never found the need to evolve past their current niche.

Yea, even with a Hive Mind guiding them they'd evolve very differently since there wouldn't be a great urge to devour.