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Hey!

A canoptek wraith that purchases whip coils strikes at I5 in combat. However, they lack assault grenades. My question is thus: due to the Wraithflight special rule ("When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. [...]), is their initiative effected by the terrain? This is not a question of what modifier has priority (the set value), but rather if the wraiths suffer the modifier at all. Charging through difficult terrain states: "[...] if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."

So we know that MTC won't help the wraiths. However, wraiths move over all terrain as if it was open ground - does this mean we treat the wraiths as having moved through open ground?

The relevant rules:

Wraithflight:

When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.

Charging through Difficult Terrain:

If at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain.

Charge Move:

The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s) it has declared a charge against – this is called a charge move.

This tells us that:
1. Wraiths move over terrain as if it were open ground and this is not exclusive to the Movement Phase (no such restriction exists).
2. You have to move through difficult terrain to get the penalty.
3. Charge Move is a move.

So as I see it: You move, you treat the DT as open ground and you don't get a penalty.
This could have been ambiguous if Charge Move didn't use the word 'move' but instead used 'charge'.

One tip: C'tans and their "Immune to Natural Law" have the same wording. Except for an additional line where they pass DT-tests (which is weird, since you wouldn't have to take them if you treat it as Open Ground).

The wraith rule says "When moving" not "when calculating intuitive value in the Fight sub-phase."

Are you "moving" through terrain when the Fight sub phase begins?

From 'Charging Through Difficult Terrain':

... if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as a part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1.

Since Wraithflight allows the Canoptek Wraiths to treat all difficult terrain as open ground you'll never invoke the rule above since none of the models moved through difficult terrain, its all open ground.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The wraith rule says "When moving" not "when calculating intuitive value in the Fight sub-phase."

Are you "moving" through terrain when the Fight sub phase begins?

In order to trigger I1 from difficult terrain, you have to have moved through it. It is when the movement occurs that you trigger the rule, the effects just happen to apply in the next phase.

---

Another tidbit:

Open ground
Open ground covers everything from dusty plains to rolling hills. Models in open ground are often said to be ‘out in the open’. No additional rules are needed for open ground and, unless otherwise specified, special rules and abilities that affect terrain do not affect open ground. The surface of the Realm of Battle Gameboard is considered open ground.

This supports the idea that you do not invoke rules when moving over terrain "as if it was open ground", no?

You are initiative 1 if you charge a unit in terrain, unless they are already locked in combat.

DONE

You are only at I1 if you charged through difficult or dangerous terrain, the Wraithflight rule makes that open terrain so that rule would not be in effect, so not exactly done.

Lungpickle wrote:
You are initiative 1 if you charge a unit in terrain, unless they are already locked in combat.

DONE

Way to ignore every statement so far in the thread. At least argue for your cause if that's your view. As of now, we have provided proof that wraiths move as if on open ground all the time, and you cannot invoke any penalties while moving on open ground. Do you have anything that counters this?

Lungpickle wrote:
You are initiative 1 if you charge a unit in terrain, unless they are already locked in combat.

DONE

Yes, but you treat all terrain as open ground.

"Lordy READ the rules."

Devils Advocate argument.

While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Devils Advocate argument.

While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.

Cheers

Andrew

If you're forcing the Wraiths to assault at Initiative 1, then you're not treating the difficult terrain as open ground. You'd be treating it as difficult terrain.

Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.

That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.

That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.

It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.

So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.


however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?

 Ghaz wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Devils Advocate argument.

While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.

Cheers

Andrew

If you're forcing the Wraiths to assault at Initiative 1, then you're not treating the difficult terrain as open ground. You'd be treating it as difficult terrain.

But you're not. For the purposes of moving the terrain is treated as open terrain, but it doesn't actually tell you to ignore the terrain. For example, if you use Wrathflight to move through a wall, would you be insisting that the wall no longer blocks Los as open terrain doesn't block Los? The terrain exists even though you may not be affected by it. The charging rule don't even ask for you to be slowed or affected by difficult terrain, simply that you have moved through it.

Cheers

Andrew

Every instance where a piece of wargear allows a unit to ignore the penalty to initiative in a GW piece of rule, it has been explicitly stated so. Look at the Flip Belt from the Harlequin release as an example.

We've been down this road before, and GW FAQ'ed that Wraiths don't ignore the initiative penalty. Expecting the result to be different this time is not realistic.

 Ghaz wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Devils Advocate argument.

While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.

Cheers

Andrew

If you're forcing the Wraiths to assault at Initiative 1, then you're not treating the difficult terrain as open ground. You'd be treating it as difficult terrain.

Yes, at the beginning of the Fight sub-phase we will treat it as difficult terrain. Since the wraiths are no longer moving, and they only count it as open ground "when moving," that's fine.

40k-noob wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.

That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.

It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.

So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.


however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?

The Wraiths whipcoils boost them to I5 now, so it does make a difference.

So by that logic, if they don't go though the difficult terrain, then they don't in contact of the unit, so they can't assault...

Because if they indeed assault, then they must come into contact of the models that are IN the terrain, thus going through the terrain, thus be affected.

the fact that they arn't slowed by the terrain, or that they can go over it doesn't mean that the terrain cease to exist, or that they are not in it.

They don't get the -2" range in a terrain, they don't have grenades or a rule like the flipbelt that says they still use their normal Init.

Its the same freakin argument as with the Grav guns ffs, everyone and their dogs where like "you don't get any saves vs this with your vehicle" and Oh look!!, the rule as been updated in that way in the rulebook...

Discussed about this with all the necrons players(5-6) that we have in our Club, none of them believe even by a stretch that the rule is intended like this and thus it shouldn't be used like this.

Now in your meta, you do whatever you like after all, but don't get used to it too much, never knows when 8th Ed will be released with updated rules for this...

So then the Wraiths are I4 after charging into Terrain... Due to be reduced to I1 for Terrain, then add 3.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
So then the Wraiths are I4 after charging into Terrain... Due to be reduced to I1 for Terrain, then add 3.

Charging through terrain makes them swing at i1, it does not simply make their initiative 1 so whip coils will not help.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Every instance where a piece of wargear allows a unit to ignore the penalty to initiative in a GW piece of rule, it has been explicitly stated so. Look at the Flip Belt from the Harlequin release as an example.

1. False, C'tans and Wraiths ignore the penalty and they don't explicitly state it.
2. Flip Belt doesn't slow you, Wraithflight tells us to treat it as open ground. Do not use totally different abilities to make a point.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
So by that logic, if they don't go though the difficult terrain, then they don't in contact of the unit, so they can't assault...
Because if they indeed assault, then they must come into contact of the models that are IN the terrain, thus going through the terrain, thus be affected.
the fact that they arn't slowed by the terrain, or that they can go over it doesn't mean that the terrain cease to exist, or that they are not in it.
They don't get the -2" range in a terrain, they don't have grenades or a rule like the flipbelt that says they still use their normal Init.
Its the same freakin argument as with the Grav guns ffs, everyone and their dogs where like "you don't get any saves vs this with your vehicle" and Oh look!!, the rule as been updated in that way in the rulebook...
Discussed about this with all the necrons players(5-6) that we have in our Club, none of them believe even by a stretch that the rule is intended like this and thus it shouldn't be used like this.
Now in your meta, you do whatever you like after all, but don't get used to it too much, never knows when 8th Ed will be released with updated rules for this...

Ooh, the hilarious arguments!
3. They DO go through a place and get in contact, they just treat it as open ground. Does open ground have a penalty on Initiative?
4. No, they do have a rule which states they treat it as open ground. Again: Does open ground have a penalty on Initiative?
5. How is it the same as Grav guns? Did Grav guns treat Terrain as Open Ground, because I am unfamiliar with such a rule.
6. Well, then it clearly shows your 5-6 Necron players don't know anything about the rules. Perhaps you want to come up with a RAW-response for once?
7. So I shouldn't get used to something that sounds logical, is balanced and works both RAW and RAI because you looked in your crystal ball and told me that 8th edition will change the rule in two to three years?

Seriously people..
At least do an effort to come up with any rules-arguments.

I would say... due to the wording of the rule, if you charge through difficult terrain and do not end on it, you would not receive the penalty.

If any model after the charge has been resolved is still in DT, they take the penalty. After all they are still fighting in it, even if they are not simply moving.

Thing is, the charging-into-terrain rule is supposed to represent the defenders being able to find objects to defend themselves behind. It's not actually about the models charging being slowed down at all. That's why grenades work how they do - dodging the grenade blast means the defenders can't set themselves against the charge properly.

 Quickjager wrote:
I would say... due to the wording of the rule, if you charge through difficult terrain and do not end on it, you would not receive the penalty.

If any model after the charge has been resolved is still in DT, they take the penalty. After all they are still fighting in it, even if they are not simply moving.

Difficult Terrain wrote:If at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain.

Unfortuntly, that doesn't trigger it either. The rule only triggers when "moving through difficult terrain". The through is key, since through also means "to move over" in 40k. So even if they end their movement in DT, they did not move through it, and thus did not trigger the rule.

But you have to take into account that the terrain still exists and that, while they are unaffected by it, the unit still moved through difficult terrain. If you maintain that all terrain is open terrain and that no other consideration exists, then the unit is therefor unable to assault any unit on battlements or the upper floors of ruins. Open terrain gives no consideration to moving up levels. Those rules are contained in the relevant terrain sections, which some are maintaining that do not apply to wraiths when moving or assaulting.

Cheers

Andrew

The unit moved through the terrain, but they treat all of it as open ground.

But I will repeat what I 'said' in the Triarch Praetorian-thread:
We claim it works like that and use argument 'X'.
You counter that by saying if 'X' were true, we would also have a side-effect that might be weird.
Even if we ignore whether that side-effect is true or not, that doesn't disprove our original argument!

The only place where I see those type of arguments are in YMDC and 'Global Warming'-discussions

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Thing is, the charging-into-terrain rule is supposed to represent the defenders being able to find objects to defend themselves behind. It's not actually about the models charging being slowed down at all. That's why grenades work how they do - dodging the grenade blast means the defenders can't set themselves against the charge properly.

By that fluff based logic, how are you setting yourself against a charge by things that pass through walls?

Kangodo wrote:
The unit moved through the terrain, but they treat all of it as open ground.

But I will repeat what I 'said' in the Triarch Praetorian-thread:
We claim it works like that and use argument 'X'.
You counter that by saying if 'X' were true, we would also have a side-effect that might be weird.
Even if we ignore whether that side-effect is true or not, that doesn't disprove our original argument!

The only place where I see those type of arguments are in YMDC and 'Global Warming'-discussions

Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?

The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.

Cheers

Andrew

RAI argument, but why would they change the wording if the change would have no effect whatsoever? The old wording already prevented them from being slowed by difficult terrain and ignore dangerous terrain tests. But instead they changed it to treat it as open ground. Clearly the intent must have been to ignore all penalties of terrain. Can't think of any other case except the initiative penalty where it matters....

Yes the rules are sloppy as usual but I think the intention was that they should ignore the ini penalty as well....

 AndrewC wrote:
Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?

The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.

Cheers

Andrew

I do not know and I do not care: This thread is about their Initiative which RAW isn't penalized when they attack someone in DT.
You will never gain such a thread because nobody is actually going to create it.

But you are doing it again!
You are making up some hypothetical unforeseen consequence of following the rules to try and "prove" that it is wrong.
Having a weird side-effect does not mean that it's not RAW, it means that GW isn't perfect in their rules-writing.