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If you are a tournament player, then chances are this is a waste of time. However, the rest of you Grey Knights player, I have a few words to tell you. I am not pleased with seeing a lot of rule mistakes and absolutely poor tactics employed by so many Grey Knight players; with the same army, I could have done much better. And I am NOT that veteran of a GK player, I have only started playing for 1 year and have battles twice or thrice per month. Here are some GENERIC advice to playing the Grey Knights. They are not meant to be cheesy, so don't expect anything like spamming Dreadknight or Centurion-Draigo Deathstar. These advice will help boost your win ratio, your esteem as a decent player and overall experience with the game.
- Librarians and Dreadknights are two best units in the army. Terminators are also decent now that the cost has been reduced. You will see a lot of players going around with these three units, and why not?
- Ignore the Dreadnought. It's gak. Unless you still have that model since 5th edition or you like Dreadnought in general, don't bother it. If you do field the Dreadnought, let it be and don't put Sanctuary on it. It's a complete waste of psychic dice.
- I don't understand why people keep using Librarian or Kaldor Draigo as Warlord. Very poor choice. The Librarian is too flimsy and Draigo's warlord trait is mostly useless unless you are fighting daemons. Use the Dreadknight as Warlord and give him Personal Trait.
- NSF does not allow Storm Raven to come in on first turn. Never put anything inside a Storm Raven if you are using this detachment. Don't have your troops foot-slog across the field when you can Deepstrike them; the exception is when you want to play defensively against a melee-oriented enemy such as Orks or Tyranids.
- When Deepstriking, be conscious about whether you want your IC to be with the unit or as a separate entity. In the case of the latter, it's more risky but allows better flexibility. For example, a Librarian with Combi-melta can damage a vehicle while Terminators attack foot soldiers. Incinerator a the best choice for Deepstrike units because they can run into better position before unleashing the holy flame.
- Dreadknights don't have Hammerhand. Stop wasting Hammerhand on Dreadknights. And NEVER, I mean, NEVER EVER Deepstrike the Dreadknight or Interceptor. Use the Teleport to shunt them across the field.
- Remember, unlike other Terminators, Grey Knight Terminators have Assault Grenades, meaning they can charge through cover and fight as normal Initiative.
- Cleansing Flame is a very potent power that can be of great use if you land in the middle of a Tau gunline or at the rear of most vehicles. If you are using 3 dice on it and 2 on Hammerhand, you doing it WRONG. Put at least 4 on Cleansing Flame. If necessary, ignore Hammerhand and put all 5 on Cleansing Flame.
Here are some fun, yet competitive allies for the Grey Knights:
- Space Marines: drop pods with Purifiers. Cleansing Flame all the way.
- Eldar: more Warp Charges. Running and shooting never gets better.
- Orks: disposable bodies.
If you are playing Grey Knights or are interested in them, what do you think about them? If you have anything to add or to argue with me, feel free to comment below.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/05 13:36:14
bibotot wrote: If you are a tournament player, then chances are this is a waste of time. However, the rest of you Grey Knights player, I have a few words to tell you. I am not pleased with seeing a lot of rule mistakes and absolutely poor tactics employed by so many Grey Knight players; with the same army, I could have done much better. And I am NOT that veteran of a GK player, I have only started playing for 1 year and have battles twice or thrice per month. Here are some GENERIC advice to playing the Grey Knights. They are not meant to be cheesy, so don't expect anything like spamming Dreadknight or Centurion-Draigo Deathstar. These advice will help boost your win ratio, your esteem as a decent player and overall experience with the game.
"The ego is huge with this one ..."
- Librarians and Dreadknights are two best units in the army. Terminators are also decent now that the cost has been reduced. You will see a lot of players going around with these three units, and why not?
Preaching to the Chior.
- Ignore the Dreadnought. It's gak. Unless you still have that model since 5th edition or you like Dreadnought in general, don't bother it. If you do field the Dreadnought, let it be and don't put Sanctuary on it. It's a complete waste of psychic dice.
Can I have an Amen, Brother!?!?
- I don't understand why people keep using Librarian or Kaldor Draigo as Warlord. Very poor choice. The Librarian is too flimsy and Draigo's warlord trait is mostly useless unless you are fighting daemons. Use the Dreadknight as Warlord and give him Personal Trait.
Well ... the DreadKnight warlord will die pretty quick once your opponent knows it is your warlord, earning Slay the Warlord. Draigo is a waste as a warlord, yet the Librarian gains a huge benefit if rolling on the GK table, potentially netting First to the Frey or Lore Master, which are both much more helpful on a Libby than a DK.
- NSF does not allow Storm Raven to come in on first turn. Never put anything inside a Storm Raven if you are using this detachment. Don't have your troops foot-slog across the field when you can Deepstrike them; the exception is when you want to play defensively against a melee-oriented enemy such as Orks or Tyranids.
Some people like to use their Stormravens as taxis rather than gunboats, which can be a good choice given the correct opponent (one without adequate AA). However, SR passengers is almost always a bad idea.
- When Deepstriking, be conscious about whether you want your IC to be with the unit or as a separate entity. In the case of the latter, it's more risky but allows better flexibility. For example, a Librarian with Combi-melta can damage a vehicle while Terminators attack foot soldiers. Incinerator a the best choice for Deepstrike units because they can run into better position before unleashing the holy flame.
Deep Striking is a "vehicle" for transporting your IC wrapped up in a bubble of ablative wounds. The only GKIC worth DS'ing on its own is a Psycannon toting Brother-Captain you are still using since 3rd Ed, which is to say, never do this. And never ever take Incinerators on TDA. Incinerators are for PA, and the only PA worth DS'ing are Strikers (and no one takes Strikers).
- Dreadknights don't have Hammerhand. Stop wasting Hammerhand on Dreadknights. And NEVER, I mean, NEVER EVER Deepstrike the Dreadknight or Interceptor. Use the Teleport to shunt them across the field.
DKs haven't had Hammerhand since 5th. If you still think your DK has Hammerhand, please buy and/or read the 7th Ed codex. As to DS'ing, there are times when reserving your DKs can be benefitial, and if so, Deep Striking is an excellent method of gaining ground while saving Shubt for a later turn grab.
- Remember, unlike other Terminators, Grey Knight Terminators have Assault Grenades, meaning they can charge through cover and fight as normal Initiative.
GKT are our Tac Squads ... and our Assault Squads.
- Cleansing Flame is a very potent power that can be of great use if you land in the middle of a Tau gunline or at the rear of most vehicles. If you are using 3 dice on it and 2 on Hammerhand, you doing it WRONG. Put at least 4 on Cleansing Flame. If necessary, ignore Hammerhand and put all 5 on Cleansing Flame.
Cleansing Flame is an awesome power; too bad it's on a garbage unit.
Here are some fun, yet competitive allies for the Grey Knights:
- Space Marines: drop pods with Purifiers. Cleansing Flame all the way.
- Eldar: more Warp Charges. Running and shooting never gets better.
- Orks: disposable bodies.
You forgot Imperial Knights, which act like super-DKs while bringing needed Melta (or less needed Battlecannon) as well as the D.
If you are playing Grey Knights or are interested in them, what do you think about them? If you have anything to add or to argue with me, feel free to comment below.
I do, and I did.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Also, Space Marines are not good allies for Pods... as they cannot provide free Pods. You mean Blood Angels and Space Wolves specifically as they are the only ways to get FA DropPods right now.
Space Marines however are good allies for the Centurionstar option which IMO is too big of a point-sink in a list that will already have low-model-count issues, but hey... it does serious work.
Also, a lot of these tips are pretty naive, and further experience will dismiss them. With all do respect the power of Cleansing Flame is something rookie players tout, and which got talked up the week the codex dropped, then quickly fell off. If a Librarian happens to have it, and you don't need the warp-charges elsewhere that turn... sure... its not terrible, but dedicated units like DropPod Purifiers are a novelty that most players will bore of quickly once they realize they only earn their points back against very select armies, before then dying an immediate, expensive, death.
/
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I just have to agree more with the poster above me on almost every note.
- A Dreadknight Warlord is doomed... don't even bother. At least a Librarian hidden among Termies/Paladins has a bunch of wounds he can absorb.
- Dreadknight deep-striking is perfectly fine, and saves shunt for valuable repositioning after an alpha-strike, or later, much-needed objective grabbing. Nemesis Strike Force is essentially the only thing making GK not-terrible right now, so why wouldn't you build and play to its strengths/bonuses?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/05 15:01:42
I'll also add that one this very forum are players with a lot of GK experience (I personally have played them in 4th, 6th, and now 7th edition and I still don't have near the experience some of these guys do) and a thread dedicated to GK tactics with inputs from these players.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
I'll also add that one this very forum are players with a lot of GK experience (I personally have played them in 4th, 6th, and now 7th edition and I still don't have near the experience some of these guys do) and a thread dedicated to GK tactics with inputs from these players.
bibotot wrote: If you are a tournament player, then chances are this is a waste of time. However, the rest of you Grey Knights player, I have a few words to tell you. I am not pleased with seeing a lot of rule mistakes and absolutely poor tactics employed by so many Grey Knight players; with the same army, I could have done much better. And I am NOT that veteran of a GK player, I have only started playing for 1 year and have battles twice or thrice per month. Here are some GENERIC advice to playing the Grey Knights. They are not meant to be cheesy, so don't expect anything like spamming Dreadknight or Centurion-Draigo Deathstar. These advice will help boost your win ratio, your esteem as a decent player and overall experience with the game.
"The ego is huge with this one ..."
- Librarians and Dreadknights are two best units in the army. Terminators are also decent now that the cost has been reduced. You will see a lot of players going around with these three units, and why not?
Preaching to the Chior.
- Ignore the Dreadnought. It's gak. Unless you still have that model since 5th edition or you like Dreadnought in general, don't bother it. If you do field the Dreadnought, let it be and don't put Sanctuary on it. It's a complete waste of psychic dice.
Can I have an Amen, Brother!?!?
- I don't understand why people keep using Librarian or Kaldor Draigo as Warlord. Very poor choice. The Librarian is too flimsy and Draigo's warlord trait is mostly useless unless you are fighting daemons. Use the Dreadknight as Warlord and give him Personal Trait.
Well ... the DreadKnight warlord will die pretty quick once your opponent knows it is your warlord, earning Slay the Warlord. Draigo is a waste as a warlord, yet the Librarian gains a huge benefit if rolling on the GK table, potentially netting First to the Frey or Lore Master, which are both much more helpful on a Libby than a DK.
- NSF does not allow Storm Raven to come in on first turn. Never put anything inside a Storm Raven if you are using this detachment. Don't have your troops foot-slog across the field when you can Deepstrike them; the exception is when you want to play defensively against a melee-oriented enemy such as Orks or Tyranids.
Some people like to use their Stormravens as taxis rather than gunboats, which can be a good choice given the correct opponent (one without adequate AA). However, SR passengers is almost always a bad idea.
- When Deepstriking, be conscious about whether you want your IC to be with the unit or as a separate entity. In the case of the latter, it's more risky but allows better flexibility. For example, a Librarian with Combi-melta can damage a vehicle while Terminators attack foot soldiers. Incinerator a the best choice for Deepstrike units because they can run into better position before unleashing the holy flame.
Deep Striking is a "vehicle" for transporting your IC wrapped up in a bubble of ablative wounds. The only GKIC worth DS'ing on its own is a Psycannon toting Brother-Captain you are still using since 3rd Ed, which is to say, never do this. And never ever take Incinerators on TDA. Incinerators are for PA, and the only PA worth DS'ing are Strikers (and no one takes Strikers).
- Dreadknights don't have Hammerhand. Stop wasting Hammerhand on Dreadknights. And NEVER, I mean, NEVER EVER Deepstrike the Dreadknight or Interceptor. Use the Teleport to shunt them across the field.
DKs haven't had Hammerhand since 5th. If you still think your DK has Hammerhand, please buy and/or read the 7th Ed codex. As to DS'ing, there are times when reserving your DKs can be benefitial, and if so, Deep Striking is an excellent method of gaining ground while saving Shubt for a later turn grab.
- Remember, unlike other Terminators, Grey Knight Terminators have Assault Grenades, meaning they can charge through cover and fight as normal Initiative.
GKT are our Tac Squads ... and our Assault Squads.
- Cleansing Flame is a very potent power that can be of great use if you land in the middle of a Tau gunline or at the rear of most vehicles. If you are using 3 dice on it and 2 on Hammerhand, you doing it WRONG. Put at least 4 on Cleansing Flame. If necessary, ignore Hammerhand and put all 5 on Cleansing Flame.
Cleansing Flame is an awesome power; too bad it's on a garbage unit.
Here are some fun, yet competitive allies for the Grey Knights:
- Space Marines: drop pods with Purifiers. Cleansing Flame all the way.
- Eldar: more Warp Charges. Running and shooting never gets better.
- Orks: disposable bodies.
You forgot Imperial Knights, which act like super-DKs while bringing needed Melta (or less needed Battlecannon) as well as the D.
If you are playing Grey Knights or are interested in them, what do you think about them? If you have anything to add or to argue with me, feel free to comment below.
I do, and I did.
SJ
I have no idea what are you trying to speak me into.
Here are my points:
- The GK Warlord Traits are not overall not really good. If the Dreadknight can be Warlord and has a trait that gives him FNP or IWND, that's awesome. Even with the Dreadknight as the Warlord, my Librarian dies more often. I have had games where I give First Blood and Slay the Warlord when my Librarian, despite Precognition, not nuke by a Land Raider. The Dreadknight, on the other hand, just stays there. The last time I lost him was in battle with a Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, and he killed his opponent as well. Once, I had a Dreadknight with IWND tanking the entire enemy army in massed melee for 3 turns in a row. Also, when playing against Space Wolves, I constantly lose the Librarian, even with a squad of Terminators, to Thunder Wolves Cavalry who are not only fast but very power and resilient.
- I still think having multiple small unit is a good way to play, because I find it that even a Librarian in a squad of Terminators is still very easy to kill. For example, Wraithknight will just nuke both of them. I would separate the two of them so that the the two can shoot different targets. Even if the Librarian dies, that does not bother me much because he is not my Warlord and he will absorb some hits before dying.
- You said it yourself the Dreadknight will die easily. So the shunting will be a waste anyway if you Deepstrike, because since next turn, the Dreadknight can move 12" and assault the opponent's unit, killing them before moving to the next. The table is only 48" x 48", so you will have no shortage of things to kill unless your opponent also Deepstrike or Scout/Infiltrate or the Dreadknight is killed. I don't see any reason the Dreadknight should Deepstrike because he might not come in turn 1, meaning he can only charge on turn 3, and he might scatter, leading to undesirable results. Everyone who Deepstrike their Dreadknights on Youtube has failed one way or another.
- Again, I have played and succeed many times. I have no idea how many games you have won and how many opponents you have tabled. Incinerators are best for Terminators if you Deepstrike them, because you can run and shoot. I have roasted many Tau, Eldar Guardians, Chaos Cultists, Necron Warriors and even some Space Marines with this. I don't understand why you have Battle Focus on Grey Knights and be willing to use them as generic Space Marines. If you put them on the field in the first place and ignore the formation rules, then yes, the Incinerator is not worth it.
- Imperial Knights are fine. But I am currently under impression that they are a bit overpowered for casual games. Whenever I see someone bring a IK to the store, he almost automatically wins without much of an issue since the people here are not very suited up for dealing against Super-heavies.. So I left that out on purpose.
If you have anything to say, use evidence from games you have won and lost. How many opponents have you tabled? I have won games losing a couple of Terminator and Fire Dragons and wiped out 1000 points worth of enemy in 3 turns. Tell me what tactics you employ and how they work. These are NOT supposed to be either deep or for tournament setting, remember. I would never consider what I have tournament-worthy. They are for newbies who are uncertain of how to use their GK. If you already have enough experience and win rate, feel free to ignore this or share your opinion.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/05 23:39:34
jeffersonian000 is just giving his opinion- which I've found to be pretty good at starting my own army. No need to use such a tone.
Notice your title to the thread says "A guide to ALL Grey Knights player." ALL. So yes, based on the title you should be including "tournament competitive" information.
To be honest I'm afraid to put any actual tactical advice to the thread for fear of this treatment
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 03:33:19
Personal experience, unless very expansive, should not be the foundation for tactical advice. Personal experience from a few dozen people, yes. One or two, no. I personally play ~3 games a week consistently across 40k and Fantasy with several armies and get tactically schooled with reasonable regularity. I hold myself as knowledgeable, not an authority. For example - I had a game where a squad of five paladins shrugged off fire from 40 Necron warriors in rapid fire range, only losing one wound on one model. I do not take this as dogma for the performance of paladins - since I've also lost one to overwatch from a single tac squad. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
To address a few points in no specific order:
-I'm not all that inclined to crunch the numbers, but instinct tells me a librarian in a squad of five terminators is more survivable than a nemesis dreadknight (generally speaking). As well they should, for costing quite a bit more.
-Incinerators have no home on Terminators (again as a general rule). Interceptors and NDKs (the heavy version) carry them better. Terminators are a relentless platform perfectly suited to the Psycannon.
-I play on 6'x4' boards (72''x48''). Fast moving armies can quite easily spread to outpace the limited mobility of GK (post DS and shunt).
-MSU with GK borders an effort in futility. The units are far too expensive to properly execute the tactic. Ally Inquisitorial Chimeras if you want to do this, they fit from a fluffy PoV (which is admittedly tactically irrelevant) and perform much better with it.
-Imperial Knights <1000 (even <1500) are undeniably brutal if the enemy army is unprepared for it. That said, if it falls within the first couple of turns, you can find yourself with a huge point deficit and tactical hole to make up.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
I agree with Obsidian about incinerators, they should never be paired with TDA, the psycannon is the only HW that has a place there. There's better ways to deploy an incinerator.
Cleansing Flame is great as is the unit its on, just got to find a way to get them into the fray.
bibotot wrote: The GK Warlord Traits are not overall not really good.
You have a low chance at getting either of those, basically 33% with the battleforged re-roll. I don't see how T1 deepstrike with reduced scatter, an extra roll on sanctic, counter-attack, or hammer of wrath are all that bad. The GK table is fine.
bibotot wrote: I would separate the two of them so that the the two can shoot different targets.
The librarian can have a storm bolter or a combi weapon. You aren't losing any firepower by sticking him in with a unit of termies.
bibotot wrote: The table is only 48" x 48", so you will have no shortage of things to kill unless your opponent also Deepstrike or Scout/Infiltrate or the Dreadknight is killed. I don't see any reason the Dreadknight should Deepstrike because he might not come in turn 1
The rulebook has 4'x6' tables, and that is standard for the game, I have never seen anything other than a few games of kill team played on something smaller. Your tables are too small, which may be warping your advice.
bibotot wrote: Incinerators are best for Terminators if you Deepstrike them, because you can run and shoot. I have roasted many Tau, Eldar Guardians, Chaos Cultists, Necron Warriors and even some Space Marines with this.
You can also run for rear/side armor on tanks. Cause usually, elder guardians and necron warriors will be in transports. Pasycannons are just a flat-out better weapon, since they can hurt vehicles and MCs and aren't dependent on your opponent bunching his/her models. If you want to roast that stuff, take the heavy incinerator on the dreadknight instead.
bibotot wrote: Whenever I see someone bring a IK to the store, he almost automatically wins without much of an issue since the people here are not very suited up for dealing against Super-heavies.
The same people who play on tables that are 2/3 the size they're supposed to be?
bibotot wrote: If you have anything to say, use evidence from games you have won and lost. How many opponents have you tabled? I have won games losing a couple of Terminator and Fire Dragons and wiped out 1000 points worth of enemy in 3 turns.
1) You allied with the best army in the game, so your results are slightly skewed and 2) we are using evidence from games, it's just that rather than citing the one or 2 specific games we played we are summarizing the results of dozens of games that we've played.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
I will chip in and say that if you cant deal with 1 knight then you need to redo your army list from scratch. Can you deal with 2 LRBT variants? Yes? then you can deal with a knight. The excuse of them being super heavy is laughable. Yes they are tough and have bonus abilities but 2 LRBT put out more firepower for less points with better front armour.
Dealing with 2-3 Av13+ vehicles is something every list should be able to do. Running the Adamantine Lance at 1200 point games on the other hand is no fun. 1 Knight? You should be ok.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 03:02:24
He's just giving his opinion- which I've found to be pretty good at starting my own army. No need to use such a tone.
Notice your title to the thread says "A guide to ALL Grey Knights player." ALL. So yes, based on the title you should be including "tournament competitive" information.
To be honest I'm afraid to put any actual tactical advice to the thread for fear of this treatment
As the guy who held top GKs through almost the entierty of rankings HQ, and so far through Frontlines's ITC, and can count on (almost) one hand the number of tournaments I went worse than 50-50 in streching all the way back to the Daemonhunters codex, I officially learned everything I know from this thread* .
Seriously, though, not bad basic advice.
*if by this thread you mean Way of the Water Warrior.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 03:18:56
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
He's just giving his opinion- which I've found to be pretty good at starting my own army. No need to use such a tone.
Notice your title to the thread says "A guide to ALL Grey Knights player." ALL. So yes, based on the title you should be including "tournament competitive" information.
To be honest I'm afraid to put any actual tactical advice to the thread for fear of this treatment
As the guy who held top GKs through almost the entierty of rankings HQ, and so far through Frontlines's ITC, and can count on (almost) one hand the number of tournaments I went worse than 50-50 in streching all the way back to the Daemonhunters codex, I officially learned everything I know from this thread* .
Seriously, though, not bad basic advice.
*if by this thread you mean Way of the Water Warrior.
Re-reading my post it looks as if I was defending bibotot...
Rather I should have specified I was referring to his treatment of jeffersonian000
biggest thing I disagree with is making a dreadknight your warlord, DKs tend to have a (well deserved) rep as major lynchpins, thus will proably attract a lot of fire.
I've pondered taking a brother-captain or grandmaster to use as a warlord,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 03:40:15
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
NSF does not allow Storm Raven to come in on first turn. Never put anything inside a Storm Raven if you are using this detachment. Don't have your troops foot-slog across the field when you can Deepstrike them; the exception is when you want to play defensively against a melee-oriented enemy such as Orks or Tyranids.
Why is this? I dont play Grey Knights but just played a game against them last weekend and my opponent had 2 Storm Ravens come in turn 1.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/06 03:54:57
You only get to use the special reserve rule if you're deepstriking. Ravens can't deepstrike, ergo they can't come in turn 1.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
bibotot wrote: If you are a tournament player, then chances are this is a waste of time. However, the rest of you Grey Knights player, I have a few words to tell you. I am not pleased with seeing a lot of rule mistakes and absolutely poor tactics employed by so many Grey Knight players; with the same army, I could have done much better. And I am NOT that veteran of a GK player, I have only started playing for 1 year and have battles twice or thrice per month. Here are some GENERIC advice to playing the Grey Knights. They are not meant to be cheesy, so don't expect anything like spamming Dreadknight or Centurion-Draigo Deathstar. These advice will help boost your win ratio, your esteem as a decent player and overall experience with the game.
"The ego is huge with this one ..."
- Librarians and Dreadknights are two best units in the army. Terminators are also decent now that the cost has been reduced. You will see a lot of players going around with these three units, and why not?
Preaching to the Chior.
- Ignore the Dreadnought. It's gak. Unless you still have that model since 5th edition or you like Dreadnought in general, don't bother it. If you do field the Dreadnought, let it be and don't put Sanctuary on it. It's a complete waste of psychic dice.
Can I have an Amen, Brother!?!?
- I don't understand why people keep using Librarian or Kaldor Draigo as Warlord. Very poor choice. The Librarian is too flimsy and Draigo's warlord trait is mostly useless unless you are fighting daemons. Use the Dreadknight as Warlord and give him Personal Trait.
Well ... the DreadKnight warlord will die pretty quick once your opponent knows it is your warlord, earning Slay the Warlord. Draigo is a waste as a warlord, yet the Librarian gains a huge benefit if rolling on the GK table, potentially netting First to the Frey or Lore Master, which are both much more helpful on a Libby than a DK.
- NSF does not allow Storm Raven to come in on first turn. Never put anything inside a Storm Raven if you are using this detachment. Don't have your troops foot-slog across the field when you can Deepstrike them; the exception is when you want to play defensively against a melee-oriented enemy such as Orks or Tyranids.
Some people like to use their Stormravens as taxis rather than gunboats, which can be a good choice given the correct opponent (one without adequate AA). However, SR passengers is almost always a bad idea.
- When Deepstriking, be conscious about whether you want your IC to be with the unit or as a separate entity. In the case of the latter, it's more risky but allows better flexibility. For example, a Librarian with Combi-melta can damage a vehicle while Terminators attack foot soldiers. Incinerator a the best choice for Deepstrike units because they can run into better position before unleashing the holy flame.
Deep Striking is a "vehicle" for transporting your IC wrapped up in a bubble of ablative wounds. The only GKIC worth DS'ing on its own is a Psycannon toting Brother-Captain you are still using since 3rd Ed, which is to say, never do this. And never ever take Incinerators on TDA. Incinerators are for PA, and the only PA worth DS'ing are Strikers (and no one takes Strikers).
- Dreadknights don't have Hammerhand. Stop wasting Hammerhand on Dreadknights. And NEVER, I mean, NEVER EVER Deepstrike the Dreadknight or Interceptor. Use the Teleport to shunt them across the field.
DKs haven't had Hammerhand since 5th. If you still think your DK has Hammerhand, please buy and/or read the 7th Ed codex. As to DS'ing, there are times when reserving your DKs can be benefitial, and if so, Deep Striking is an excellent method of gaining ground while saving Shubt for a later turn grab.
- Remember, unlike other Terminators, Grey Knight Terminators have Assault Grenades, meaning they can charge through cover and fight as normal Initiative.
GKT are our Tac Squads ... and our Assault Squads.
- Cleansing Flame is a very potent power that can be of great use if you land in the middle of a Tau gunline or at the rear of most vehicles. If you are using 3 dice on it and 2 on Hammerhand, you doing it WRONG. Put at least 4 on Cleansing Flame. If necessary, ignore Hammerhand and put all 5 on Cleansing Flame.
Cleansing Flame is an awesome power; too bad it's on a garbage unit.
Here are some fun, yet competitive allies for the Grey Knights:
- Space Marines: drop pods with Purifiers. Cleansing Flame all the way.
- Eldar: more Warp Charges. Running and shooting never gets better.
- Orks: disposable bodies.
You forgot Imperial Knights, which act like super-DKs while bringing needed Melta (or less needed Battlecannon) as well as the D.
If you are playing Grey Knights or are interested in them, what do you think about them? If you have anything to add or to argue with me, feel free to comment below.
I do, and I did.
SJ
I have no idea what are you trying to speak me into.
Here are my points:
- The GK Warlord Traits are not overall not really good. If the Dreadknight can be Warlord and has a trait that gives him FNP or IWND, that's awesome. Even with the Dreadknight as the Warlord, my Librarian dies more often. I have had games where I give First Blood and Slay the Warlord when my Librarian, despite Precognition, not nuke by a Land Raider. The Dreadknight, on the other hand, just stays there. The last time I lost him was in battle with a Khorne Lord on Juggernaut, and he killed his opponent as well. Once, I had a Dreadknight with IWND tanking the entire enemy army in massed melee for 3 turns in a row. Also, when playing against Space Wolves, I constantly lose the Librarian, even with a squad of Terminators, to Thunder Wolves Cavalry who are not only fast but very power and resilient.
- I still think having multiple small unit is a good way to play, because I find it that even a Librarian in a squad of Terminators is still very easy to kill. For example, Wraithknight will just nuke both of them. I would separate the two of them so that the the two can shoot different targets. Even if the Librarian dies, that does not bother me much because he is not my Warlord and he will absorb some hits before dying.
- You said it yourself the Dreadknight will die easily. So the shunting will be a waste anyway if you Deepstrike, because since next turn, the Dreadknight can move 12" and assault the opponent's unit, killing them before moving to the next. The table is only 48" x 48", so you will have no shortage of things to kill unless your opponent also Deepstrike or Scout/Infiltrate or the Dreadknight is killed. I don't see any reason the Dreadknight should Deepstrike because he might not come in turn 1, meaning he can only charge on turn 3, and he might scatter, leading to undesirable results. Everyone who Deepstrike their Dreadknights on Youtube has failed one way or another.
- Again, I have played and succeed many times. I have no idea how many games you have won and how many opponents you have tabled. Incinerators are best for Terminators if you Deepstrike them, because you can run and shoot. I have roasted many Tau, Eldar Guardians, Chaos Cultists, Necron Warriors and even some Space Marines with this. I don't understand why you have Battle Focus on Grey Knights and be willing to use them as generic Space Marines. If you put them on the field in the first place and ignore the formation rules, then yes, the Incinerator is not worth it.
- Imperial Knights are fine. But I am currently under impression that they are a bit overpowered for casual games. Whenever I see someone bring a IK to the store, he almost automatically wins without much of an issue since the people here are not very suited up for dealing against Super-heavies.. So I left that out on purpose.
If you have anything to say, use evidence from games you have won and lost. How many opponents have you tabled? I have won games losing a couple of Terminator and Fire Dragons and wiped out 1000 points worth of enemy in 3 turns. Tell me what tactics you employ and how they work. These are NOT supposed to be either deep or for tournament setting, remember. I would never consider what I have tournament-worthy. They are for newbies who are uncertain of how to use their GK. If you already have enough experience and win rate, feel free to ignore this or share your opinion.
Ugh, your posts are so hard to read.
Most if your examples are anecdotal, which is okay, as personal experience is the cornerstone to developing good tactics and strategy. However, your points illustrate your local meta more than an accurate guide to playing a Grey Knight army correctly.
Point #1 - You seem to be playing with insufficient LoS blocking terrain. In the examples you've posted regarding your a Librarian dying instantly, one needs to think about how such an occurance happens. More detail would be useful, but the assumption that you either did not use terrain correctly, did not use correct terrain, or did not engage the correct targets with the correct units. You say that WraithKnights splat your
Librarian and attached squad, which makes me ask why the WraithKnight had LoS to your Librarian? Did you scatter poorly? Did you not use your DKs to bully the WK? Were you playing on Planet Bowling Ball? My point is that one anecdotal instance does not a strategy guide make!
Point #2 - You do realize GKT can run and shoot Psycannons as well, when arriving from Deep Strike using Rites of Teleportation? And that four S7 Rending shots are more tactically flexible than 3-5 S6 Soulblaze hits? With one, you can kill tanks and Monstrous Creatures, or snap fire at Flyers, and still punch 4+ or better Armor Save. Yes, the Incinerator is good, but not as good as a Psycannon on a Relentless platform. Pre-Salvo, Psycannons were the better choice for PA, too. Post-Salvo, the Incinerator is a better weapon on PA platforms. I'm glad to hear you are doing well with Flamers on your TDA, but that it not optimal, nor something of focus in a Tactica. Have you noticed how powerful Psiliencers are now, with the addition of Force? Yet, we aren't recommending every GK squad to switch over to Psiliencers, because the Psycannon is more reliable on TDA units, the Incinerator is less penalizing on PA units, yet DKs are doing quite well with Heavy Psiliencers on a 1 per 2 models basis. That is what goes into a Tactics guide.
Point #3 - Your win-loss record is just as anecdotal as my win-loss record, which is why no one cares about yours or my win-loss record. We do care about tournament standings posted on legitimate sites, not yours or my tournament standing, but the Grey Knight faction's tournament standings, because it is not anecdotal, and it does give us a window for how the army does in a tournament setting with tournament restrictions going up against other tournament level lists and players. Those statistics matter, not your local meta's nor mine.
Point #4 - Warlord traits, Warlord models, Psychic powers, and any other random or selectable condition is solely up to the player, and are too varied to be anything more than a best practices segment in any Tactica. I prefer having my Warlord Libby with Liber roll on Sanctic for powers and the GK table for trait, because that synergizes well for me. I see the value in what I choose to do. I also note that others see the value in what they choose to do. So when you state that others are doing it wrong, I note that that is your opinion and offer my own, which I support with reasons.
Point #5 - I stand by my "ego" statement, because my dyslexia kicked in when I was trying to type "condescension".
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
For the record, I once effectively tabled a 2500pt army in one round of combat with Draigo and 10 Paladins (CSM player tried charging me with his whole army). I killed well over 50 Marines, he only had maybe a couple Rhinos left.
Does that mean we should all ditch Dreadknights and run pure Draigowing? No, it just means my opponent was dumb enough to get his whole army in combat with the single best assault unit in the game. Paladins are great, and worth taking in the right lists, but they're not auto include in every GK army.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
DarkLink wrote: For the record, I once effectively tabled a 2500pt army in one round of combat with Draigo and 10 Paladins (CSM player tried charging me with his whole army). I killed well over 50 Marines, he only had maybe a couple Rhinos left.
Does that mean we should all ditch Dreadknights and run pure Draigowing? No, it just means my opponent was dumb enough to get his whole army in combat with the single best assault unit in the game. Paladins are great, and worth taking in the right lists, but they're not auto include in every GK army.
A perfect example of an anecdotal event with the reasoning on why it does not define the army.
Thank, sir!
For my part, I use to run a Tri-Raider list at 1500pts from 4th to 5th with great results, and switched to TDA heavy Ghostwing in 5th and 6th. 7th saw me LoL'ing over all the rage-quit posts as I calming placed Mordrak and his Ghostly Bodyguads on the shelf while dusting off Draigo as my only real change to the list I've been playing for years. Does that mean we all should play Draigo-Shunt-Bombs? Well ... gee ... I kind if see that a lot of people are, because it plays dynamically and can be entertaining, although not overly competetive. Also, they play with icky Paladins, which I definitely do not. Then there are the double CAD or double NSF lists people are getting good results from on Torrent of Fire and LVO, or the much hated Draigo-Tiggy-Cent-Star everyone knows about than doesn't win much in competetive play. It's almost like we have a lot of options and several ways to play, none of which are the "One List to Rule Them All" or "The One Play Style We All Should Adopt".
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Incognito15 wrote: NSF does not allow Storm Raven to come in on first turn. Never put anything inside a Storm Raven if you are using this detachment. Don't have your troops foot-slog across the field when you can Deepstrike them; the exception is when you want to play defensively against a melee-oriented enemy such as Orks or Tyranids.
Why is this? I dont play Grey Knights but just played a game against them last weekend and my opponent had 2 Storm Ravens come in turn 1.
In the old codex Stormravens had deepstrike, so maybe your opponent was misremembering. Or he just read his Codex wrong, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bibotot wrote: If you are a tournament player, then chances are this is a waste of time. However, the rest of you Grey Knights player, I have a few words to tell you. I am not pleased with seeing a lot of rule mistakes and absolutely poor tactics employed by so many Grey Knight players; with the same army, I could have done much better. And I am NOT that veteran of a GK player, I have only started playing for 1 year and have battles twice or thrice per month. Here are some GENERIC advice to playing the Grey Knights. They are not meant to be cheesy, so don't expect anything like spamming Dreadknight or Centurion-Draigo Deathstar. These advice will help boost your win ratio, your esteem as a decent player and overall experience with the game.
- Librarians and Dreadknights are two best units in the army. Terminators are also decent now that the cost has been reduced. You will see a lot of players going around with these three units, and why not?
- Ignore the Dreadnought. It's gak. Unless you still have that model since 5th edition or you like Dreadnought in general, don't bother it. If you do field the Dreadnought, let it be and don't put Sanctuary on it. It's a complete waste of psychic dice.
- I don't understand why people keep using Librarian or Kaldor Draigo as Warlord. Very poor choice. The Librarian is too flimsy and Draigo's warlord trait is mostly useless unless you are fighting daemons. Use the Dreadknight as Warlord and give him Personal Trait.
- NSF does not allow Storm Raven to come in on first turn. Never put anything inside a Storm Raven if you are using this detachment. Don't have your troops foot-slog across the field when you can Deepstrike them; the exception is when you want to play defensively against a melee-oriented enemy such as Orks or Tyranids.
- When Deepstriking, be conscious about whether you want your IC to be with the unit or as a separate entity. In the case of the latter, it's more risky but allows better flexibility. For example, a Librarian with Combi-melta can damage a vehicle while Terminators attack foot soldiers. Incinerator a the best choice for Deepstrike units because they can run into better position before unleashing the holy flame.
- Dreadknights don't have Hammerhand. Stop wasting Hammerhand on Dreadknights. And NEVER, I mean, NEVER EVER Deepstrike the Dreadknight or Interceptor. Use the Teleport to shunt them across the field.
- Remember, unlike other Terminators, Grey Knight Terminators have Assault Grenades, meaning they can charge through cover and fight as normal Initiative.
- Cleansing Flame is a very potent power that can be of great use if you land in the middle of a Tau gunline or at the rear of most vehicles. If you are using 3 dice on it and 2 on Hammerhand, you doing it WRONG. Put at least 4 on Cleansing Flame. If necessary, ignore Hammerhand and put all 5 on Cleansing Flame.
Here are some fun, yet competitive allies for the Grey Knights:
- Space Marines: drop pods with Purifiers. Cleansing Flame all the way.
- Eldar: more Warp Charges. Running and shooting never gets better.
- Orks: disposable bodies.
If you are playing Grey Knights or are interested in them, what do you think about them? If you have anything to add or to argue with me, feel free to comment below.
This is overall pretty decent advice for non-competitive GK players. However, I have a few points of contention as a long-time GK fanboy:
1. In a strictly non-competitive setting, GK Dreadnoughts are not garbage, they are actually fun and can do some decent damage. Also, they contribute to your Psychic pool, to assist with Psychic shenanigans. They have almost no use in competitive lists, however.
2. Whether competitive or non-competitive, it seems extremely foolish to DS an IC separate from a unit. They are just asking to be murdered the following turn while their potential damage output is very limited the turn they come in.
3. With the popularity of Drop Pods and other first-turn deepstrikers (other GK players!), it's not sound tactical advice to say NEVER deepstrike the Dreadknights or Interceptors. Putting them in DS reserve is a great way to counter an Alpha strike and keep your lynchpin units protected. I've null-deployed my whole GK army, rolled strategic traits to get manipulation of my reserves, intentionally given first turn to my opponent, and counter-struck bottom of turn 1. Also remember that Rites of Teleportation gives you the OPTION to DS turn 1. You don't HAVE to. Nearly all opponents assume that you will be coming turn 1, and will deploy defensively and limit their mobility for the first turn. Keep your big guns in reserve and position the ground troops for a Beta strike turn 2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 19:59:19
Is there a consensus on what the 'best' wargear choices for a Dreadknight are? As in what you'd see in tournament play. I'm out of touch with this army.
Iechine wrote: Is there a consensus on what the 'best' wargear choices for a Dreadknight are? As in what you'd see in tournament play. I'm out of touch with this army.
Myself and i've notice quite a few batreps where people run a Dreadknight with Teleporter, Psycannon, Incinerator and a melee weapon, usually the sword.
Making the Libby Warlord isnt a bad choice, because unlike a Dreadknight you can stick the libby in a unit to meatshield him. And Dreadknights get focused down pretty hard usually
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 20:16:43
Iechine wrote: Is there a consensus on what the 'best' wargear choices for a Dreadknight are? As in what you'd see in tournament play. I'm out of touch with this army.
I find that the 'best' DK options are whatever points you can afford to take without taking away from the rest of the army.
You also have to take into account function and what you plan to do with the DK.
The DK has a wealth of decent options, but as you add more weapons/wargear, you've making it that much more of a target.
Note that none of the additions really add to the survivability of the DK; a DK with all the bells and whistles has the same 4W, 2+/5++ as a bare bones DK.
Which is not that difficult to remove nowadays if your opponent knows what they're doing.
As for the OP's "tactica" I firmly disagree with a majority of his points, and this is coming from a long time GK player. Automatically dismissing the "tournament" players, who generally have loads more experience, does a disservice to everyone.
I'm not going to get into refuting his advice, because he's not looking for input; he seems to have it all figured out after less than 1 year of playtime, so rock on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/06 20:29:36
Teleporter and a psycannon are a must, since DKs are only really impressive with their speed, and you need all the psycannons you can get. A Force weapon is next. Then, the Incinerator is well worth the points, if you have the points. Done.
I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.
Step 1: Run dreadknights
Step 2: Run more dreadknights
Step 3: Win.
Seriously, as orks I can barely even harm those things and they absolutely wreck everything in my entire codex, even stompas point-for-point, and I just love to complain about them.
Carry on!
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
Step 1: Run dreadknights Step 2: Run more dreadknights Step 3: Win.
Seriously, as orks I can barely even harm those things and they absolutely wreck everything in my entire codex, even stompas point-for-point, and I just love to complain about them.
Carry on!
Dreadknights do diddly squat against a proper Green Tide Formation. Too many Klaws spread throughout the mob for them to deny their swings. Too many bodies for even multiple heavy incinerators to clear out fully (especially if you put in the Obligatory painboy/mad dok) and they have enough board presence that even if they do shunt, there's few areas to go that aren't covered by the Orks. And this is without the rest of the support your army can get like Mek Guns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/06 23:39:33
A battery of five Kustom Mega Kannons will usually severely damage a DreadKnight at will, possibly killing one in a decent turn of shooting, while costing half their points, and still being free to do work all game.
And that isn't even addressing the hidden Klaws throughout your list.
Hordes are a very tough match-up for GK's, as all Cleansing Flames in the world won't be enough for me to win if you can still tarpit my very, very low model count army.
The last thing I want my stompy MC locked in combat with is a fearless pool of cheap bodies. I've had a few instances of a minimum squad of Termagants held my DK in combat for three game turns. DKs should be assaulting and murdering hard, expensive targets; they should be shooting squishy stuff.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
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3000
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