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2015/03/20 18:50:23
Subject: [Kickstarter] begins 3/25 - Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light
Jimsolo wrote: Nope. Male succubi were a thing until they were retconned.
I was actually referring to the type of demon. An Incubus is the male equivalent of a Succubus. In other words, it's a male demon that seduces women whereas the Succubus is a female demon that seduces men. So, no, you can't have a female Incubus, nor a male Succubus.
What Jimsolo said in the post above this one is true, but have you considered that they might be lesbian elves? What would that make them?
Hot?
*Snort*
Well played sir, well played. Other acceptable responses include "Lesbian elves?...
Spoiler:
Moving on.
I don't think that anyone can accuse me of being an apologist for RH (see signature), but I'm going to come out and say it: I'm leaning towards backing this thing. We're not in the same age of Kickstarter and crowdfunding that we were in when they ran the campaign, I'd say for better and worse, but... let's be honest, it's been mostly for the worse.
Right now I think the biggest issue for funding anything like these programs is a) can they deliver, and b) does it make sense to buy so far ahead of time?
RH may be infuriating, they may never take feedback, they may capriciously change models after you've paid for them, they may be rude, condescending and in many ways act like a real life cartoon of how the rest of the world perceives the French/artistes, but... but. They actually have delivered (if you paid a load for shipping, that is), and once they meandered their way to finalizing their designs they do have pride in their product.
The thing I think people most need to be aware of is that RH is not going to change things for you on the design front. So if you see something in the campaign that you like, go for it. If you see something that you (and maybe a lot of people) think is a little "off"... yeah, don't pledge for that and think it's going to get fixed later.
2015/03/21 02:17:10
Subject: [Kickstarter] begins 3/25 - Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (renders page 7)
KalashnikovMarine wrote: RH changed several things on fan/backer feedback, the KST Heavies had I believe changes to the pauldrons and the breast plate...
While that may be possible (I didn't pay a lot of attention to the KST), I'm not sure if you're confusing it with the IE heavies, where they responded to my feedback about shoulders and breastplate with...uh, I believe their reasoning was "the IE heavies fight like American Football players, ramming things with their shoulders." Certainly a novel idea, I suppose.
How does the saying from 40k go? "Hope is the first step on the road to failure"?
Expect the worst and you'll not be disappointed. Not even by the French. Well, maybe a little...
2015/03/24 22:03:26
Subject: [KS] begins 25-3 Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light ($200 freebies deal page 9)
Barzam wrote: I'm a little disappointed that they haven't been releasing more renders or art to try and build up interest in this project.
Yes, it's a bit puzzling, especially as this campaign is going to be so cluttered.
Mantic has already shown that simply adding gubbins to fantasy figures doesn't turn a medieval warrior into a space marine (unless they are skulls and... more skulls, of course).
2015/03/25 16:06:53
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light - LIVE AND FUNDED AND SMASHED ALL GOALS
Heh, am I the only person that finds it amusing that the "Digital Art Book" is the pledge reward for most of the lower level pledges, when that's still MIA from their previous campaign?
2015/04/05 14:52:01
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light - LIVE, FUNDED and going places
I'm interested in this KS, but not interested in following any of the details via their page or updates since they seem to be an absolute clusterfeth of scratchy concept art, and a ridiculously confusing number of stretch goals that appear to make no sense.
I think I can drag myself from my ennui long enough to crunch some numbers.
Also, for those worried about things not getting unlocked, it's worth pointing out that in the first campaign, as we neared the end, they simply unlocked items without them being associated with specific stretch goals. Though they then did have a big splash at the end. I'm not sure I foresee this particular campaign having the explosive finale (though time will tell), as there are a lot of factors that go into that, not all of which apply to a second campaign.
2015/04/07 20:31:07
Subject: [KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light - LIVE, FUNDED & going places - final 48 hrs
BrookM wrote: I think we've already reached the stage of everything will be unlocked, regardless of how much more funds are added. Just look at the Paypal unlock goals and what has been unlocked all of the sudden.
I think it's worth pointing out, if they have learned nothing else from their first campaign, this "Paypal unlocks" is quite shrewd. In the first campaign it became clear towards the end that they had "unlocked" everything (that is, they had the money to produce their stuff), but were spacing out the stretch goals to maintain interest. This was basically confirmed when they simply started unlocking things as time ticked down. I vaguely remember, when they got into the final stretch, someone asked about something that had not been explicitly unlocked and the reply was basically "uh, I guess we forgot to unlock that, consider it unlocked".
The virtue of having "paypal" unlocks is it allows at least a credible pretense that the unlocks are actually tied to money coming in.
2016/01/13 04:31:34
Subject: [KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Just a quick question: why would you prime with teflon? Wouldn't that be like... an anti-primer?
It seems like a great way of making your model slick and non-stick, which I would normally assume is a terrible quality for a model to have before painting.
2016/01/14 06:11:30
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Ahh, thanks, that does indeed make sense. it also explains why the basing seemed so rough on those figures (since they are going to be removed from the bases for mold making).
2016/04/25 03:36:20
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Bit of a scrim on the KS page over the change of the Not-Sisters of Battle from wearing boots to high heels. For my part i'm going with the 'anti' faction, for two reasons;
First, when they were actually asking for money, the renders and concept art all had the not-Sisters in boots. Switching from boots to heels so far from feedback may satisfy their retifism, but it seems scarcely appropriate.
Second, and there really is no other way to put this, they did a crap job in some very notable ways;
Spoiler:
Seriously, that's just bad sculpting. Not only are the feet and ankles contorted into unnatural and downright improbably/impossible positions, but armor plates are bending and angling in ways that don't speak of fantasy materials or powered armor but laziness. That's what happens when you just grab a 3D model and move things without caring about what it's supposed to be. It resembles nothing so much as how armor works in older MMOs like WoW: armor isn't an actual texture in man cases, it's simply painted onto the character model. So steel plates flex (and bounce and jiggle) like they have no weight, because they don't.
2016/04/25 18:49:48
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
A reply has been sent, which (in typical fashion) takes a whole lot of words to say very little;
Spoiler:
We received several messages concerning our sisters' heels and since they all asked more or less the same questions, we thought it simpler to come up with a general answer that would cover what you asked us and maybe a bit more. We are not including this in our regular Updates because those are long enough as it is (and people often complain about our walls of text) and we did not want to bother backers (like Lust Elves and Dark Elves fans, for example) who would not feel concerned about this. So please grab a tea or coffee, and dive in:
First, I am really sorry that you feel disappointed by the high heels on our Sisters, and I understand that you would prefer another style of footwear.
Probably like you, I have bought tons of miniatures and have looked at tons of press releases showing sculpts that I would love to be slightly different. Just a small change would have made a big difference for me. So I totally get your point.
So let me give you a bit more info about what we do, why we do it, what's really going on, and what we might have missed.
Running a project as big as TGG2 is a massive undertaking with more than 3000 backers involved and as much as our intention are good and we try to please everybody, it is inevitable that at one point, we'll come up with something that some people don't like. In fact, it can be anything that we do. Some people will say that our miniatures are too sexy. Others will complain that they should more sexy (this happened during TGG1 and on many other occasions). Some will love the design of this sword or that weapon, and others will hate it.
As much as we would like to please every single one of our backers, this is sadly a totally impossible task. From the very beginning of Raging Heroes, we've been developing very strong and personal aesthetics in the way we dress and pose our characters. We understand that these choices cannot fit everyone's tastes, but at the same time, they are what has made Raging Heroes the distinctive and successful brand that it is.
Like we explained on many occasions, the images we show at the launch of the campaign, whether they be sculpts or concepts, are always work-in-progress. As much as we strive to stay true to those concepts, we also always try to improve them. And we've been frequently named as one of the only company that is able to deliver sculpts that are an improvement on our concepts.
Of course, once again, an improvement is a subjective thing. And some changes cannot always please everybody.
When we create creatures like the Draahks that somehow follow the commonly accepted archetype of Dark Elves riding some sort of dinosaurs, we take a big risk in offering a new take that is nevertheless fairly different from the usual raptor-like creatures. A lot of people might not like that look. And even if we show a preview of that in the concepts, in the end, the sculpts end up being fairly different from the originals shown in the campaign, and that is because we keep on refining the design of the armies and adapting it to the 30mm scale. Since I'm the one inspiring and supervising these creations, I may find (like was the case with the Draahks), that the concept artist has done a great job, but that we could push it further at the sculpting stage. So at every stage of the process, we run the risk of creating something that a few (or a lot) people might not like.
But I have to do this because my job is to make sure that the Raging Heroes aesthetics and the coherence of each of our armies is preserved throughout the whole creation process. Of course, the changes we make are entirely subjective, but from our experience, they always turn out into something that people like more than the concepts.
However, on some occasion, some details or parts of a design generate a strong reaction, both for and against, from the people who follow our work, be they backers, regular customers or miniature enthusiasts who simply look and comment on new releases. This is the case with what is happening with the Sisters' heels right now.
Contrary to what some comments might make you think, we received a massive onslaught of positive messages these last few days, especially regarding the Sisters. So, I feel a bit at a loss to know how to answer you.
The vast majority of the backers love everything about the Sisters, including their heels. And I can say that these troops have probably been the most popular of all the troops (albeit being also the ones generating the most upheaval) we have shown until now in TGG2.
So, even if I understand that some people may be put off by this look and some are being very vocal about it, I cannot change it when the majority of the backers like them that way.
Please understand that I am not trying to put down what you feel about them by sharing with you these informations. I'm just trying to give you a little bit more perspective and understanding of what's going on and why we do what we do, in the hope that it will help you look at the Sisters in a different way.
To be honest, we were very surprised by these strong reactions.
The truth is that high-heeled characters have been a typical RH thing from the start, and it also happens that, while sometimes generating controversy, these characters have always been the ones people like the most: The Kurganova Sisters, Asharah, The Blood Vestals (scifi and fantasy), Mad Nurse Bernadette...
But more than that, TGG2 Sisters' characters like Celenia, Reyallia, Altarii, Arthenia, and the Daughters of the Crucible all have high heels and we haven't received A SINGLE complaint about them.
Even more so, Celenia, Reyallia and Altarii have armours and general outlook that are very similar to the Regulars and Icariates' look since they are meant to be heroines of these units. They have been created like the template of these troops.
So we understand why some of you prefer more heavy looking, no-heels, army boots, we really do, but still, this is odd...
So we wondered “could there be something else that have made you feel something was wrong with the Sisters Troops and Icariates? A thing that transformed a design that everybody seems to be fine with into something that strongly irritated some people?”
Well, the answer seems quite obvious. And it's an easy fix.
Ok, we don't mean it solves the whole like/dislike issue, but we think it will make a big difference.
It is true that some of these models have a strange looking ankles. And so you could feel like some of them have a hard time standing up, accentuating the feeling that the heels look impractical and not warrior-like.
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
The Fantasy Angels update that we are posting today won't have this correction yet, but don't worry, it will be done and we'll show you the change soon.
And finally, please remember that very few miniature companies ever show their sculpts or renders in such large images as we do. What you see here on a full-size image looks more like a movie poster than a regular small photograph of a miniature. These heels will look very differently when your miniature is based, and on the table. They will virtually disappear from view and, if you want to, by filling the gap between the heel and the sole, they'll look nearly non-existent. We know for sure, because we often had the opposite problem when we based our own models and tried to preserve the heels look.
Now, there is something else we need to address.
Many queries and complaints about the heels issue were perfectly fine and concerns were expressed in the most constructive way. And we are happy to address them as deeply as we can.
But some of the comments we read or messages we received used adjectives like “silly, ugly, stupid” in a very dismissive manner and this is something that nobody responds well to.
If we were the ones using these words, everybody would rightly find us offensive.
You might find us a bit old school (we are fine with that) but such speech is disrespectful and rude, both to a team that works VERY hard, and to the other backers who may or do disagree with what is being said. It's all quite unfortunate, and does not help any cause: it's hard for opposite opinions to come and work together when such words and attitude are tossed around.
We find that nothing constructive can come out of this kind of interactions and this is something we cannot condone. We don't want you, or any other Loud'n Raging backer, or the people who work with us on this, to have to deal with that kind of bad vibe.
On our end, we are sorry that it took us several days to answer your questions, but these last few days have been truly hectic and we wanted to examine the issue carefully and calmly before giving you a detailed answer.
Once again, we are truly sorry if this message does not bring you the exact solution you were hoping for, but I hope that this long message has helped you understand the things that we do, and the changes that will be made.
Benoit Guerville
Art Director
PS: One last little thing, talk about serendipity...... Oddly enough, I stumbled on this today... Take a look at John Blanche's illustration on the first Games Workshop's Battle Sisters' codex. This is the very first Battle Sisters illustration they ever made if I'm correct. Look at this foot on the skull... Life is odd
TLR, Nothing of substance will be changed.
2016/04/26 01:01:45
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
The sad part of it is, they've managed to entirely live down to my expectations. In the first KS, I pledged about $300. As one may note from my signature line, I had some problems with how they ran their campaign, not least of which was their constantly shifting rationale for changes made and impenetrability to suggestion. I ended up with a variety of heroes and a marked caution towards the company.
This campaign: $15. Looks like I made the right choice. It's a sorry situation where I can drop my pledge amount by 95% and have no regrets, but then again, buried in that long, self-congratulatory email they pretty much reserve the right to change whatever they want, whenever they want.
By the way, it's worth pointing out that in the previous campaign, a large number (I would say the majority, but don't hold me to that) of figures are far more interesting precisely for their lack of high heels. This temptation to put everything and everyone in stripper heels is a marked change from the first campaign, and not a positive one. That's what really makes it so irritating: they could be a great miniature company if only they could restrain themselves.
2016/04/26 18:32:47
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Interesting, apparently RH is now refusing to honor requests for refunds;
Saga Wälivaara about 1 hour ago
My request to be refunded was denied and I was left with this.
"However, our Financial Department suggests that we wait until all our sculpts are finished, in order to see if some miniatures can meet your expectations. If not, then they will be discussing the refund at this time."
Just have to wait it out then.
First, this does not strike me as something that RH could maintain if someone really wanted to push the issue. If you pledged for X, and then X (as you pledged for it) is not going to be made, you have the right to a refund. It is not incumbent on the backer to instead settle for Y or Z.
Second, I wonder, if all of the people that were expecting sisters and are unhappy demanded a refund, I seriously doubt that RH could actually fulfill them. One can't help but notice the proliferation of sales enhancements that RH has been engaging in recently: their last update continued their "Flash sale" (it's now less a flash and more a lingering glow, I suppose), and their 'deal' tab on their website is... extensive. It's worth pointing out that, even on sale, their stuff is really expensive. I mean, substantially more expensive then Infinity expensive.
*My response from the comments;
Spoiler:
@Saga Wälivaara: Just to be clear, you wanted a refund because they're not producing X, they knowledge that they are not producing X, but they are refusing to refund you and demanding you instead accept Y and Z?
If that is the case, then it really comes down to whether your pledge was completely motivated by the sisters troopers. If so, then it's not unreasonable to point out that they are simply not going to make what you pledged for (the difference between soldier and stripper aesthetic is a material alteration), and you may wish to contact the financial institution that you used to pay your pledge.
For most people that is going to be your credit card company or your bank. This is not a new issue, even for kickstarter; it's no different then having a contract for groceries. If you arraign a contract for 100 kilos of apples, and are then told (a year later) that you can't have apples, but apple sauce, grapes or pineapples, then the other side is in breach of contract.
That's why I'm asking if it's ONLY the (now) stripper-ified troops that you pledged for, because while you may be able to get your money back, it's pretty likely that's all you're getting back. It's lousy position for RH to put you guys in, and I'm sorry you had to learn this the hard way. Like I said, I learned this last campaign and it meant $300 to $15, you guys are learning it now.
2016/04/27 13:20:06
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
aku-chan wrote: I got exactly the same copypasted reply when I asked for a refund.
Going by the whole message, their stance on the matter is basically 'Thank you for your money, but this is a Kickstarter, you knew there was a risk it would all turn to crap, so tough cookies.'
Hopefully I'll find enough other stuff to replace the Fantasy Sisters with, I'm just glad I didn't put as much money in to this as I originally planned.
I think the one thing everyone should take away from this is:
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
They ARE reacting to the criticism, and they're even explaining why they changed from boots to high heels.
What they're asking you to do is wait for the final designs. Yes, they will be wearing high heels, but they will look better than on the current renders. They've already said so, although they added a LOT of explaination to it.
With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...
In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.
The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.
By the by, it's also worth pointing out that the 'explanation' (which I include in its entirety in an above comment) adds a lot of words, but the actual explanation boils down to 'because we felt like it'.
EDIT; found my post with the terrible sculpting that they are now going to fix (and it is terrible).
Buzzsaw wrote: Bit of a scrim on the KS page over the change of the Not-Sisters of Battle from wearing boots to high heels. For my part i'm going with the 'anti' faction, for two reasons;
First, when they were actually asking for money, the renders and concept art all had the not-Sisters in boots. Switching from boots to heels so far from feedback may satisfy their retifism, but it seems scarcely appropriate.
Second, and there really is no other way to put this, they did a crap job in some very notable ways;
Spoiler:
Seriously, that's just bad sculpting. Not only are the feet and ankles contorted into unnatural and downright improbably/impossible positions, but armor plates are bending and angling in ways that don't speak of fantasy materials or powered armor but laziness. That's what happens when you just grab a 3D model and move things without caring about what it's supposed to be. It resembles nothing so much as how armor works in older MMOs like WoW: armor isn't an actual texture in man cases, it's simply painted onto the character model. So steel plates flex (and bounce and jiggle) like they have no weight, because they don't.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/27 13:25:11
2016/04/27 14:37:12
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...
In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.
The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.
Not at all. If they promised us plastic models and delivered a simple block of plastic your analogy would work, but you're completely exaggerating the change they did.
If you don't accept High Heels that's a different matter, agreed. But many of the models already showed them, and RH is known using that style for their products. It sucks for you, but they did explain their reasoning - to have the style consistent across the army. You don't have any legal right to a refund, the product will be mostly what was presented as early designs. one detail is not enough to say "this is a completely different product".
That being said I would hope they'll allow refunds once they had the chance to present the sculpts the way they want to finalize them, without the problems from the rendering mistakes. That would be fair and square, and they also get a fair shot at convincing you to stay onboard. Not you as a person - as you're so adamant about not wanting high heels - but backers in general, of course.
Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
The better course of action is through people's payment methods: credit cards and banks. This particular action is about as close to a bait and switch as one is likely to find, as should be easily remedied if RH continues to be intransigent.
As for "they did explain their reasoning", it's largely irrelevant. This wasn't a change motivated by exigency, but a conscious decision to not supply the product ordered and instead supply a different product. As I pointed out above, applesauce and apples are both fundamentally similar and yet distinct, so it also is that a figure costumed in boots and uniform is fundamentally similar and yet distinct from a figure costumed in the 'sexy Halloween' version of a uniform complete with stripper heels.
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
2016/04/27 15:55:57
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.
Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."
Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.
The big problem, of course, with the arguments that people have been making about how this 'unifies the aesthtic', is that... this change actually completely upends the existing aesthetic that RH had going for them, and replaces it with a simplistic aesthetic of 'high heels = sexy', 'sexy = good', therefore 'high heels = good'.
Or, as I put it in the comments;
Spoiler:
@DeSteele: Yeah, you make a good point that I had been thinking about in the back of my head. The simple fact is that the more one thinks about Benoit's reasoning, the less sense it actually makes.
Raging Heroes now makes 4 human armies (5 if you count fantasy separately): Iron Empire, Jailbirds and Kurganovas from their first campaign, and Sisters from this one. All of the first campaign troopers are wearing boots (I looked and could not find any troop boxes in heels, except the mech zombies, which I don't count as 'human'). All of the troops.
Now, we come to the sisters, and while they were shown wearing boots, now, for some reason, they're in heels.
This isn't just aesthetically displeasing, going from soldier uniform to 'sexy Halloween costume' soldier uniform, it now actually breaks the aesthetic of their 'universe'. Previously, in the Raging Heroes universe (remember, they have for years claimed they were making a game world for this), humans wore 'normal' clothes and boots to war, except for the crazy standout characters where it was a part of their character. Elves, on the other hand, always wore crazy heels, as a way of differentiating them from humans.
Now, that aesthetic is broken down, You have three lines of human troops that look like they inhabit one universe, and the sisters, who look like they inhabit a fetish parody of the same universe. The more thought one gives to this, the less sense it actually ends up making.
Now, while that is a problem with the aesthetics, let's be honest (as Benoit actually has been) and concede that these are not being bought to be used in RH's eternally 'coming soon' game system, they're being bought to be used as Sisters of Battle. This creates a very different problem, as my understanding is that RH's sisters were considered one of the more 'popular' offerings, so let's play a little with numbers.
Let's assume that the Sisters were not a prohibitive favorite, but substantially more then the alternatives, say 40% of backers were in this for not-SoB.
There is a poll that has been run by someone in the comments about Heels/Boots, and the poll tilts to Boots, but let's be generous and call it a 50/50 split (so 20% of total backers on either side).
Now, of those that prefer boots, some will undoubtedly either be okay with the changes, or willing to spend their pledge money on other things. Let's again say 50%.
So, while admitting that all of the above is speculative, let's imagine that 10% of total backers are what we might term hard core SoB players looking for not-SoBs. As I'm sure many of us are familiar with SoB players, when it comes to the nuns, they can be... less then easygoing.
If that's the problem that is blowing up in slow motion in their inbox, no wonder they are taking their 'phone off the hook', so to speak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: I would argue that the apples to applesauce analogy is a poor one, as those are functionally different items. A better one would be if Honeycrisp apples had been replaced by Red Delicious.
That would be fine too. In Frigalament the difference was between frying and stewing chickens. There are any number of possible analogies, The important bit is that, contrary to what was claimed, there is no simple test for what differences are material and what are not. I content (with fair confidence) that to a non-trivial number of SoB players that bought into this for non-GWSoB figures, high heels are a material difference that makes these figures unsuitable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/27 15:59:00
2016/04/27 20:15:20
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.
Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."
Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.
Oh, no - you're missing the point. I wasn't expressing contempt for the state or the law nor was I conceding a point. I was acknowledging that you think you have a point while expressing contempt for you - a person that claims that changing the footwear of a miniature is the same as throwing it in a blender, and at the same time claims higher authority by telling us his occupation in a really pompous way. How you being a lawyer makes you more qualified to judge whether or not a product is or isn't changed in a material way is beyond me, though. Don't courts usually call on actual experts for that type of judgment?
And that's even ignoring the whole "this is concept art, subject to change - be aware there are risks!" aspect which would probably have the whole case thrown out in a court - although THAT is probably something you're much better qualified to judge than I am. But then there's the whole "RH are French and I am German, so US laws are really irrelevant to me" thing, even if the US laws would ensure a refund for US customers.
Hmm, you're right, it is strange that someone would imagine being an attorney would confer some insight into the applicable laws or legal standards. I suppose we'll just have to relegate that question to the land of mystery... it is, as you've done, much better to speculate wildly while making baseless and incoherent assumptions. Trully, your theories about the legal island that is France are tantalizing, as are your ideas about expertise in miniature footwear. Perhaps you have a newsletter we could subscribe to?
Listen, you don't want to argue the law, that's fine. I've shared my professional opinion, you've shared your amateur opinion, let's leave it at that, shall we? Moving on.
The new update is out, and it features their take on Angels with dirty faces... oops, I mean stripper heels, half-a dozen of the other and all that.
I left some feedback there (long story short, nice figures, but really weird proportions in some areas), but the real thing that struck me overall is what BrookM mentioned: their figures are just so 'dynamic' that they end up really poorly done for making actual units. The angels especially don't look like a unit that you would want to ever have more then one of, because so many highly distinctive design elements would be so obvious when you have more then one.
There are angels ascending, angels descending, angels shoving forward a book, etc. They all look rather nice (with the noted exceptions), until you have more then one on the field. They really seem more painters miniatures or heroes then unit figures.
Which rather ties into one of the things I've observed about RH: they just don't know when to tone things down. Troopers should not be so distinctive, because you end up on detail overload.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/27 20:17:10
2016/04/28 12:50:17
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
BrookM wrote: It's a combination of having way more "special snowflake" poses and options than the boring old bread and butter options that may do it in over time. And yes, the inability to tone it down is a massive factor in all of this as well. It's an army so busy and full of character that well, it makes you lose focus of who are supposed to the heroes and who are supposed to the scrubs!
I'll keep it in spoilers, but people looking to build armies, or even squads using the Raging Heroes models, here's what it may end up looking like. I used the Kurganova regular infantry boxed sets and one command boxed set for these.
Spoiler:
My biggest problems with these infantry kits, in short:
- Way too many running legs
- Stationary legs are far too akimbo (this is even worse with the Jailbirds sets, who can't fit onto regular 28mm bases!)
- Not enough helmeted heads! (I want the boring helmeted heads, not the wild, wind in the hair heads! )
- Not enough arms holding a rifle in both hands, whether it is shooting or at ease, there are way too many gesturing arms, or ones holding grenades and demolition charges!
The last one is particularly damning. What I was hoping for was a unit of voidborn infantry that could neatly be ranked up into a cool firing line, but when I do that on the tabletop I'm stuck with a unit that seems to be in utter chaos and doing anything but firing.
Another problem people should look out for is this, pardon the crappy picture:
Spoiler:
RETURN OF THE CROOKED SPINES. All girls from those boxed sets (ditto with my box of Jailbirds and the many blisters of character sculpts I've bought) have a perky bum and quite a crooked back, so buyer beware, this may also very well happen with the sisters. I think we can safely assume that the elves, of both fantasy and scientific persuasion, already have these.
That's exactly what I was talking about. Actually, overnight I was thinking about this, and it occured to me that the perfect analogy comes from an episode of the UK version of Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares. If you're a fan of that series, one of the things that made it different form the USA version (which was mostly Ramsey shouting at incompetent chefs running terrible restraunts), is several of the episodes he actually liked the chefs and their problems came not from being bad cooks, but simply not knowing how to run a restrant as a business.
The specific episode I was thinking about is from season 2: La Riveira. It's one of the best examples of how the principle of 'less is more' can work sometimes.
Edit: To expand on that, the Chef at La Riveira is Luic, a hotshot young French (by coincidence) chef who has found a rich patron that allows him to explore all his culinary aspirations. The problem is, having never learned moderation, his dishes actually suffer for all their extravagance.
If I could sit Benoit down and explain what is going wrong with his vision, I would basically have him watch this episode. So much of what RH is putting out now is like the dishes Luic put on the table: brimming with good ideas, good execution and fine ingredients... but too many of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 12:55:51
2016/04/29 17:41:18
Subject: [KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
BrookM - While I think you have some good points, when you start saying Cadian plastics do anything "perfectly"... I think you've crossed the line
There's a reason there's such a market for alternate IG, and it's mostly that GW's IG (whether Cadians / Catachans / etc!) are pretty poor!
There's some nice sculpts to be had if you go through Forgeworld, etc... but it just makes it ripe for competitors.
Also, to you and Buzzsaw I just had a question - At least in Buzzsaw's case, since you didn't really back this project much I wonder why you continue to go after the RH folks - not saying they don't leave themselves really open to it, but it just feels a bit harsh. Especially with say that gif, that has continued to pop up throughout any RH discussion. It's funny as a meme, I'll grant you . But at some point I would think you'd say you disagree with their approach and move on...
Finally, just wanted to say I do find both of your analyses on things like this interesting - this is more a comment of motivation / what you're looking to get out of continuing to track them, since you're not really after the minis themselves this time around (again from Buzzsaw's comment of dropping his backing by 95% last page - not sure if you're in on this one heavily BrookM?).
Hmm, you know, that's a fine question, and one I've actually asked myself. I suppose that it really comes down to one definite point, and then two things that flow from that. The definite point is this: I consider sister models in boots are not equivalent to sister models in stripper heels. There is a lot of argument to be had on that, I'm sure, but that's what I believe, and put simply, I consider the changes that RH has made to be the equivalent of (in lay terms) a Bait and Switch.
I realize there a people that don't agree with my assessment, which is fine, but that assessment motivates the two points that follow from it;
-The first is... I genuinely think they are screwing people over here. What pushes my evaluation of RH's actions from basically harmless to malignant and (bordering on) tortious is their refusal to refund people who don't like the change. This moves beyond the area of their usual shenanigans of silly design decisions, interminable delays and general pig-headed-ness. This is the bait and switch, it aggravates me, and it's likely to keep aggravating me unless and until they either revert the offending sculpts or offer refunds.
Please note: my aggravation here is not inherently connected to the stripper heels. Plenty of the models were initially shown in such heels, and they worked fine with that in their established aesthetic. My ire is connected to showing art that clearly had the models in boots, and then switching to stripper heels, without either soliciting feedback ahead of time or allowing people refunds. If they allow refunds? This problem is completely fixed.
-The second point is rather similar to BrookM's: on the aesthetic side I think they really are going down the wrong path and it's disappointing, because I had high hopes in the first campaign, and they... sorta came through?
Someone mentioned Kingdom Death, and I think that's a good comparison, because I think that what Poots has gone the right way, at least when it comes to his miniature philosophy. What I mean by that is there is a pretty clear divergence between the individual, monopose sculpts and the 'generic' armor kits. His armor kits are just amazing, in no small part because they don't go as far over the top as the individual sculpts.
Consider the difference between individual figures like the Fighter, Mage and Thief on the one hand...
Spoiler:
And, on the other hand, the Leather Armor kit;
Spoiler:
Or the Spider Silk armor kit;
Spoiler:
There is a huge difference in pose and dynamism, if you will. There is clearly less 'movement' in the kits... which makes them vastly more flexible, because it means they can be used in a modular fashion. This means that the kits have a great deal of utility for making various fantasy figures, not just highly individualized 'characters', but you can also make units out of them.
This is the biggest problem with what RH has decided to do with most, if not all, of their unit boxes: rather then toning down their aesthetic, they're simply making boxes of aesthetically similar heroic models.
In Warmachine, one of the big complaints is how noticeable it is that there is repetition of sculpt in, basically, anything larger then a unit of 3. Imagine how much more jarring that will be when you have multiple squads of, say, 10 Sisters, and in every single squad you have the one Sister doing the hokey-pokey, the one Sister doing... the reverse hokey pokey, the come at me, bro... Nobody can be just 'shooting', instead you have to be executing a one foot landing in high heels (with an ankle breaking angle, natch), tabard swirling around with the spine in some impossible position...
Again, this would all be fine for hero models. It would also be fine if the unit was especially acrobatic... but these aren't. These are just regular trooper models with a variety of guns, not limber assassins. This is one area where GW clearly understood what they were doing back when they released their updated Dark Eldar range; there was a clear differentiation between Warriors and Wyches, where the warriors had more solid, 'military' stances, contrasting the running and athletic poses of the Wyches.
This is an area where RH was only OK to start, but now seem to have completely lost their ability to use visual language to express information... well, information other then "Awesome! Everything is Awesome!" The problem is that when everything is awesome, nothing is.
Unfortunately, the answer seems to be what someone suggested literally years ago, after the first campaign: lower expectations. It's shame, because they really do have some good art staff, but the direction they are getting is so wrongheaded and... almost, patronizing? There seems something just desperate about how over the top everything is. Like in that Ramsey show I linked above, it almost seems like there is a lack of confidence in the product, and so a need to throw everything into it in an attempt to say "see, it's great! It's got all this great stuff, everyone likes all of these things, so why wouldn't they like them together?!"
2016/04/30 14:39:12
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
That being said, the entire team is working non-stop on finishing all the sculpts, with huge commitment and energy. The process that we developed with the first Troops is paying off and is constantly evolving and improving. But it requires a high level of skills and attention, and even then, occasionally, some things slip through.
By slipping through, I don't mean that we don't see the problems, but rather, that we cannot fix them all before we produce the renders for you. Case in point is the case of the rubbery ankles...
It is true that some of the models we showed last week have strange looking ankles. And so you could feel like some of them have a hard time standing up, creating the feeling that the heels look impractical.
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is a problem that shows in both Sisters and Dark Eves Troops , and it will be fixed.
More specifically, for the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
Please note that the Fantasy Angels images that we are posting below do not have this correction yet, but don't worry, it will be done and we plan to show you the changes at that time.
And I think this test print is relevant to many's interests:
The new update is out, and it features their take on Angels with dirty faces... oops, I mean stripper heels, half-a dozen of the other and all that.
I left some feedback there (long story short, nice figures, but really weird proportions in some areas), but the real thing that struck me overall is what BrookM mentioned: their figures are just so 'dynamic' that they end up really poorly done for making actual units. The angels especially don't look like a unit that you would want to ever have more then one of, because so many highly distinctive design elements would be so obvious when you have more then one.
There are angels ascending, angels descending, angels shoving forward a book, etc. They all look rather nice (with the noted exceptions), until you have more then one on the field. They really seem more painters miniatures or heroes then unit figures.
Which rather ties into one of the things I've observed about RH: they just don't know when to tone things down. Troopers should not be so distinctive, because you end up on detail overload.
By the way, earlier I had sent a message to RH, asking them how the male conversion kits for Dark Elves were going to work (yet another casualty of hyper-dynamism), and received this reply;
I have received feedback from the creative team regarding your query on the male bits for Dark Elves, but as they will redesigned and produced last in this KS, it is too early to provide a specific answer for this.
Now, I don't want to read too much into this, but my sense that they forgot they were evening doing these kits has increased. If for no other reason then how bad it seems (at least to a laymen) to completely design the Dark Elves, push them to production stage, then, after everything else is done, design major replacement parts.
2016/05/02 01:05:03
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Jimsolo wrote: Would there be any support for alternate feet for the sisters? If they are going to redesign the ankles anyway, wouldn't that be the perfect time to design two bits for the ankle downward? That way the RH team doesn't have to sacrifice the heeled look that they say they think embodies the line, but the backers still get what they want? It seems like a very minimal amount of work, which would be done on an area of the render they're already going back to do more work on...
I'm sure there would be: the people that object to heels do not (seem) to have anything against heels as an option, they just don't want it to be the only option. The problem is that for many of the figures, the 'dynamic' poses mean that feel often touch other pieces of the sculpts: flowing tabards, tactical rocks, etc... Besides, the stripper heel seems to be the hill that RH is willing to fight and die on (possible in the economic sense, as I point out in an earlier post, I would be shocked if RH had the capability to refund even a very small % of their pledges).
2016/05/04 00:42:17
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Hehe, one of the backers (I believe the one that has already asked for, and been denied, a refund) made this image;
Spoiler:
If RH thinks that everyone is going to warm up to this change, methinks they are going to be disappointed. Which leads to the question I have pondered: what percentage of this campaign's backers are going to ask for a refund, and what percent can RH actually afford to refund?
2016/05/15 03:24:58
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Firah wrote: I was a late backer through paypal (wish i'd waited a few months now), are they really not offering refunds on this? seems kind of shady of them.
Pretty much all the models I wanted when I backed have been shown now except the not-repentia, and I don't exactly have high hopes for them as there artwork there wasn't hopeful to begin with.
Currently looking at $175 for the dark elf with the pet dragon, good times.
At first I hadn't noticed you mentioning Paypal; if you're really not interested in much else, you may want to get in contact with Paypal sooner rather then later, as Paypal will not offer "Purchase Protection" on "Payments on crowdfunding platforms" starting June 25, 2016. You probably knew, but I didn't want that to come as an unpleasant surprise.
Baseless speculation time (Warning!)
There have been some things recently that make me wonder what is going on with RH: including, but not limited to, the appearance of near constant sales or promotions of one type or another. The most recent one is the free shipping on any order (if you're curious, it's free shipping on any order, just use discount code RHFreeShipMay when you check out). The thing is, that promotion was originally a 3 day affair, now it seems to be open ended.
This all just brings me back to something I was baselessly speculating about a few pages back: how many of their backers are actually pissed enough to be contacting their payment providers right now and forcing a refund? My impression is that the Sisters line was one of their most popular (although since the PM hasn't gone through, no idea where that stat comes from), and SoB players are... I'm going to say, exacting. Which may put their answer about refunds;
Saga Wälivaara about 1 hour ago
My request to be refunded was denied and I was left with this.
"However, our Financial Department suggests that we wait until all our sculpts are finished, in order to see if some miniatures can meet your expectations. If not, then they will be discussing the refund at this time."
Just have to wait it out then.
in a slightly different light. Should it be read as somewhat less of a 'screw you', and more of a 'please wait, please... Maybe you'll be happy with something coming?' Think of it this way: there are 6 armies, and about 3k backers. Assume that we can group fantasy and sci-fi Sister backers together then that's 1000 people, give or take, and that's around a quarter of a million in backing funds.
How much of that could RH possibly be able to refund without serious damage to their ability to conduct business? How much could they possible have in liquid assets? Remember, at $250 (about), every four (4) people that demand a refund is $1000.
Let's imagine it's 10%, not of the whole campaign, but just of the thousand Sister backers that are pissed. That's 100 people, just 1/30th of the entire campaign... but that's $25,000+ in refunds. And that's just 1 in 10 of the Sisters backers.
Just a thought.
2016/05/16 21:26:41
Subject: [KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
BrookM wrote: Once a target has been acquired, it will not be let go so easily.
Which makes a future Kickstarter where they promote and sell their own set of rules all the more interesting to follow when it happens.
It's rather fascinating: at the end of the first campaign, they were very, very keen to note that they were using the influx of funds to develope... quite a lot, really;
As we told you on the KS video, the possibility of a great result on our Kickstarter would open up new opportunities for you and us. And so it has! Many improvements have now become possible. And we already have some wicked plans for not just one, but two games!
One will be a mass combat rule system, and the other one will be a board game with a unique, very cool and fun setting.
The board game had been in the back of our mind for over two years. We've already laid out many of its concepts, but we did not have the resources to develop it fully before. This has now become possible and we can't wait to tell you more about it.
The new resources generated by the TGG Kickstarter will also allow us to make these games and their background available to you in a very new, innovative form that will truly enrich the gaming experience.
That message was posted July 13, 2013. May 9th (of this year, that is), I see that they are instead using the following line in their advertisements (emphasis in original);
Offer ends in 48 hours, so treat yourself now!!!
There's never been a better time to sample
the best proxies in the world for wargaming!
Not only have they seemingly abandoned their much touted independent rules system, it's worth remembering they still have not delivered one of the simplest pieces from the first campaign: the digital art book.
2016/05/17 20:28:08
Subject: [KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
Buzzsaw wrote: Not only have they seemingly abandoned their much touted independent rules system, it's worth remembering they still have not delivered one of the simplest pieces from the first campaign: the digital art book.
Not jumping to their defence, but that book won't happen until they have each and every model of the first KS all painted up, which is still an ongoing process, as models will only appear in their on-line store either unpainted as part of their bundles, or all painted up as separate products.
That's fair enough, except... why? I haven't looked up exactly how they promoted the digital art book at the time, but I (at least) have no interest in the painted pictures. Not to be mean, but their studio painter isn't exactly Angel from CB (of course, who is?). But in a way, this is a good example of what you mentioned before comparing them to Poots at Kingdom Death;
In both cases, the influx of Kickstarter money allowed an 'unfettered' artistic exploration. What I find is that when you compare them, Poots (by and large) went in the right direction with his flights of fancy, while RH largely has not.
I don't want the off-palette painted minis in the art book, I want their great line art from the campaign. Instead, we're going to wait... well, continue to wait, as we're now 3 years post funding.
2016/05/19 20:47:14
Subject: [KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
That's one of the reasons I can't quite disabuse myself of the notion that there is trouble behind the scenes; perhaps I am forgetting them allow pledges on TG1 for ages, but they are still advertising the free anywhere shipping shipping on any order.
Which is interesting, given that it was originally proposed as a 3 day event... on May 9th (closing on May 11th). I jsut got something from them claiming it will end 'tomorrow'.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I love the size of Buzzsaw's cojones, and yet his utmost etiquette distilled in this simple comment: off-palette painted minis.
The digital artbook was supposed to be about the line drawings, and the concept art. They're just hoping people stop asking about it.
Alpharius: They already have printed a sample low-res copy of a not-terminator, so I'm guessing there is some sort of progress on that front? Honestly, it looks more like the Hannah alternate sculpt from the TtB Kickstarter, which Buzzsaw also did a Post-Mortem of... are they secret fans, Buzz?
Well, you never know, perhaps (along with the high heels) that's what they are into...
2016/06/02 03:46:34
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
It's really exactly as BrookM described it: they aren't making troops at all, they're simply making different levels of characters, with the 'troops' being characters and the named characters being... just more over the top characters.
The great irony is that instead of being a good source for making an alternate SoB armies, RH is now a great source for SoB heroes and unit leaders... but in desperate need for a different (less insane) company to make the actual troops for the armies.
2016/06/02 16:02:02
Subject: Re:[KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
One of the best examples of what Alph and Brook are talking about comes from the last KS (which was actually better about this then the current campaign);
Spoiler:
Check out the tactical rock the second from the left is standing on in the group shot. As a hero or a single example, fine, whatever (honestly never a fan of the tactical rock, frankly). As a feature of every command for an army? Is the rock actually a standard issue?
Looking at the troop models from the first campaign to now, perhaps I'm missing some very clever points of articulation, but my impression is that the possibility of the models has dramatically decreased. The current crop is far more posed, and thus far less amenable to repetition.
2016/06/02 17:03:49
Subject: [KS] Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2: Darkness and Light (KS Complete - And now for the waiting!)
RoninXiC wrote: The Rock is the Problem? Like that is an example that makes you go angry? That tiny little rock?
Spoiler:
Just kidding: my point (which seems self-evident) is that the more dynamic a pose, the closer the resulting figures are to being functionally monopose.
Serious question for you, would you rather have the troop models for your army be more monopose or less? Brook has quite convincingly pointed out that the dynamic poses make army building a problem. It's an interesting tension that RH seems to have very poorly understood, between restraint and expression. They simply don't seem to understand the utility of the mundane.
BrookM wrote: Huh, another thing just came to mind as an observation: will it be possible to rank up the fantasy models of this KS, or are they too busy and "big" for their bases? I know Age of Sigmar did away with block shoving, but other fantasy rulesets still use ranked regiments as a gameplay mechanic.
I was thinking about that myself: doesn't 9th Age* use blocks?
Like so many things, that seems to be... hmm, a practicality that they turn their noses up at.
*That's the successor to WHFB, right?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/02 17:06:45
I used the Kurganova regular infantry boxed sets and one command boxed set for these.
)
