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Hello Dakkadites,
I'm quite new to this whole 40K thing, and I've decided to acquire a fine detail brush for the beautification of my guardsmen. I was thinking of getting the GW one, but I've heard bad things about it. Should I get it, or are there any other decent detailing brushes on the cheap-ish side that I can get in Melbourne?

Thanks

I don't know if you can get them in Melbourne, but the Army Painter fine detail brush is ok. They also do an Insane Detail brush, but I can't review that one for you I am afraid.

Winsor and Newton Series 7 Kolinsky Sable brush. Size 0. You can also go size 00.

They're expensive (~$15 U.S. on Amazon), but you get what you pay for, and if you take care of it, it'll last a while.

The GW fine detail brushes are garbage.

If you want to stay on the cheap-ish side, you can find some sable brushes, but the quality is hit and miss.

The thing to remember with our little hobby, as far as painting supplies go:
Good isn't cheap, and cheap isn't good.

Just an FYI, you can do 95% of fine details with a number 1 or 2 round brush as long as it has a good tip. The tip is the most important thing. Smaller brushes are mostly just annoying because they don't hold as much paint in the body and the small amount of paint you have dries faster.

The only time you really need a small fine detail brush is when you have access problems and can't fit the body of a larger brush in to the areas that you want to paint with fine detail.

As for brushes in Melbourne, I used to buy Creative Kolinsky brushes from TheCombatCompany (Canberra, but if you can buy online it's not really a problem), but it seems like they are getting rid of them, they only have a few left in stock and not many sizes.

http://thecombatcompany.com/hobby/paint-brushes-and-accessories/essentials/creative-kolinsky-sable-triangular-brush-size-2/

It seems they've swapped to "modifx" brushes, but I've never tried them so no idea what they're like.

http://thecombatcompany.com/categories/hobby/paint-brushes-and-accessories/modifx/modifx-kolinsky-triangle.html

The GW brush is a perfectly fine brush.

Only thing is, theres better brushes for your money (W&N, Raphael).

Steer clear of the army painter Insane detail brush mentioned above. 30/0, 20/0, anything under 00, are generally garbage. You'll wear them out in no time, and the paint dries faster on the brush than the model, because theres few bristles and no body to the brush. Theres a reason real brush manufacturers dont dip below #0... they dont need to.

 House Griffith wrote:
Winsor and Newton Series 7 Kolinsky Sable brush. Size 0. You can also go size 00.

They're expensive (~$15 U.S. on Amazon), but you get what you pay for, and if you take care of it, it'll last a while.

The GW fine detail brushes are garbage.

If you want to stay on the cheap-ish side, you can find some sable brushes, but the quality is hit and miss.

The thing to remember with our little hobby, as far as painting supplies go:
Good isn't cheap, and cheap isn't good.

This

I'm a noob but once i stepped up to W&N and Vallejo paints i got a lot better!

I have the W&N 7 Series mentioned above and love them. Size 0 is perfectly fine for doing small details like eyes.

One thing I would suggest is to buy some brush cleaner, especially if you're spending upwards of $20 per brush. The Masters Brush Cleaner is quite nice, and a $5 tub will last you forever.

As nobody has mentioned them yet, Rosemary & Co make decent brush's that don't hurt the wallet. I haven't used them for long, but so far i like them way more than the GWs brush's they replaced, and are similarly priced i believe (can't remember how much i paid for GW ones). I may try the W&N or the Raphaels one day. But right now, for the money. These feel good.

I've used the GW detail and fine detail brushes. They are okay -- serviceable mid-range brushes that are kolinsky sable.

The good: especially from a discounter, they are cheaper than pretty much all the major artist brushes (like W&N, Raphael, Rosemary, etc.). They are capable of painting very good, high quality models (just watch Ducan's videos on the GW YouTube channel). They can hold a point, and have good longevity, much better than synthetic cheapies.

If you clean them properly, they will last just as long as any other natural hair brush. I still have the set that I bought at release, and they work just fine.

The bad: they aren't particularly snappy brushes (though they aren't awful), but they don't want to naturally form a point the way a W&N S7 size 0 or 00 (or any synthetic) want to. This means that you must constantly go to your palette and roll the brush into a sharp point (again, just watch Duncan on the GW videos; he does this a lot). It's a good habit anyhow, but I don't really like how much you have to go back to the palette, especially since -- another mark against the GW brushes -- they don't hold *nearly* as much paint as a similarly sized W&N S7 brush.

Keep in mind that all of the things in the "bad" category are not really a problem for beginning painters, and frankly, if I were starting out, I'd want cheaper brushes to work with anyhow. You tend to get more paint in the ferrule, and due to more impatience, tend not to clean the brushes as well.

In my opinion, they are better than the Army Painter brushes. AP has some natural hair brushes (like Regiment and Character) which are OK, and some synthetic brushes (like the angled drybrush) that are pretty awful. The Insane Detail brush is serviceable if nothing else is available in your area, but if you want to do fine details like proper eyes, visors, or writing, do yourself a huge favor and blow $15+ on a good ultra detail brush, like a Raphael 8404 6/0, or an Isabey 20/0; or go one step larger and get a W&N S7 00, which is not as ideal, but great for other detail work too.

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that advice like this is bull gak.

 House Griffith wrote:
Winsor and Newton Series 7 Kolinsky Sable brush. Size 0. You can also go size 00.

They're expensive (~$15 U.S. on Amazon), but you get what you pay for, and if you take care of it, it'll last a while.

Now I'm not denying that it's not completely true. But if you are a complete newbie with little to no experience at painting miniatures then splurging on a $15+ brush is not what you want to be doing. Chances are good you'll end up running the brush into the ground pretty quickly.

Now there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing it at. It's just what happens. If you're a newbie then it's to be expected.

You are far better off buying something like the army painter or GW brush to use at first. Just to get you're foot in the door, so to speak.


Which leads me to this. This is also bull gak.

The GW fine detail brushes are garbage.

Game Workshop brushes are perfectly fine brushes. They're just over priced. If you take care of them then they'll see you in good stead for as long as you use them.
So don't be fooled into thinking that buying a W&N brush is going to instantly make you a better painter. It just doesn't happen. A better brush does no equal a better painter. It's all about the practice. Sure, some people are naturally talented. But for the majority of us shlubs it takes time to get good. Once you're comfortable with your painting ability then look at stepping up to the more expensive, better quality brushes.

That being said though. Don't go into the $2 store and buy some some cheap nasty brushes. They won't help either.



The super detail brushes aren't that useful. You can achieve just about anything with a standard sized brush or just a regular detail brush. The super small ones don't last long and the paint dries to quickly.


My advice to you is buy some brush soap. It's worth every cent you spend on it. I grabbed some Masters Brush Soap off Dickblick for like $5. It's fantastic stuff. Seriously, the best money you'll spend in this hobby.



If you can get into town then I know Mind Games in Swanson street carries a wide range of painting produce including, but not limited too, the Army Painter and Games Workshop brushes. So if you want somewhere local that you can check out the brushes and do a bit of a comparison between them, then I suggest taking a trip there.

I agree with almost everything that Snrub says. Pretty much all of it except:

1. GW Detail brush is $6.25 retail or $4.70-ish discounted (Fine Detail is $0.50 less). I am not aware of any other branded kolinsky sable paintbrush in this price strata.

2. The Super Detail brushes are very important if you like painting your visor lenses, detail the eyes with pupils, write on the little scrollies, or paint intricate freehand. But yeah, this isn't stuff you'll do on your first model.

Also: inexpensive synthetic hobby brushes (like Royal or PMX) are perfectly good starter brushes. They have lots of snap, and make it *easier* to paint with. You can buy kits of brushes for $15 that will give you every size you need to begin.

 Talys wrote:
I agree with almost everything that Snrub says. Pretty much all of it except:

1. GW Detail brush is $6.25 retail or $4.70-ish discounted (Fine Detail is $0.50 less). I am not aware of any other branded kolinsky sable paintbrush in this price strata.

Given we're talking Australia here, the RRP for the GW brush is $8AUD for the fine detail ones and $9 for the standard brush, they're about $7 to $8.50AUD from TheCombatCompany. The Creative Models size 2 Kolinsky brushes are $12RRP and can be gotten for $9 from TheCombatCompany.

Given what you've said, I'd say the Creative Models brushes are better enough than the GW brushes to be worth the $1.50 extra. They naturally form a good point and they have a decent body to them for holding paint.

But, as I mentioned earlier, it seems like TCC is getting rid of their Creative Models brushes in favour of Modifx brushes... they look very similar so maybe they're just rebranded? I have no idea, haven't bought one to test it. They are also similar price, $10 from TCC for a size 2, $9 for a size 0.

Personally I'd be tempted to try the Modifx brushes rather than buying the GW ones... but I haven't used a GW brush in over 15 years so I don't really know, from what you've said (and the pictures on the GW site as well) their brushes don't look that good to me.

As for brush size, it's been quite a long time since I needed something smaller than a size 1. It has such a good tip to it that I only need something smaller when I can't get the larger body in to a small space to paint recessed details, like painting a bit of detail that's wedged between 2 things. It works fine for the smallest things I paint.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


As for brushes in Melbourne, I used to buy Creative Kolinsky brushes from TheCombatCompany (Canberra, but if you can buy online it's not really a problem), but it seems like they are getting rid of them, they only have a few left in stock and not many sizes.

http://thecombatcompany.com/hobby/paint-brushes-and-accessories/essentials/creative-kolinsky-sable-triangular-brush-size-2/

It seems they've swapped to "modifx" brushes, but I've never tried them so no idea what they're like.

http://thecombatcompany.com/categories/hobby/paint-brushes-and-accessories/modifx/modifx-kolinsky-triangle.html

Modifx is just the other company Russell from TCC runs. They do the magnets, cases and accessories. It's the distribution arm. TCC are also SYDNEY based, not Canberra but they do often do overnight or 2 day delivery to east coast capitals. Kolinsky sable is Kolinsky sable - its the method of manufacture that's the difference. I've yet to try their brushes but their tooks work fine.

You could also try "Good Games" or "Mind Games" stores (there's at least one in the melb CBD on Swanston near chinatown).

Just as a point of technicality.

Typically, when I was at the top of my game, I rarely needed anything smaller than a #2 brush for 25mm or a #0 brush for 15mm.

But there were the occasional time when I would need something around a 5/0. It was really rare, but it did sometimes come up.

When I was newer to painting (or now, while I am re-learning what I have forgotten from not really painting for almost 20 years) there were often times when I might need a 5/0 or even a 10/0 brush due to not knowing how to get into smaller spaces, having poorer brush control, or not knowing how to brace my hands, or about retarder to allow a larger brush to carry more paint at a more constant consistency over a period of time.

But as I got better, I rarely had to resort to anything smaller. I now occasionally need an 00 brush to do eyes, but that is only because of a loss of visual acuity.

MB

@Beafraid --

I would disagree. I've painted countless hordes of models since the 80's, I have perfect vision, and I think that I have excellent hand/brush control. I can easily do very detailed work (like eyes, tiny wet-blended areas, freehand writing, etc.) efficiently, almost always without correction, yet, taking 3 of the last 4 models I painted, I don't think it would be practical (for me) without a 00 or 6/0. The fourth was a Stormraven, so no tiny brush required there.

On this one, writing FURIOSO in a space barely larger than 1/4" (7 characters, so each character + space is allotted 0.035 inches) on the chest, and on about a half inch on the legplate:


Or proper eyes:


On basic troops that I do in a relatively short time (I'm whipping up 30 of these right now), doing visors properly requires at least a 00. I did the orange swish and the white dot with a 6/0:


It's not always a case of "could I do it with a 0" -- yes, but usually, it would mean painting a wider line than intended, then covering it with another paint. So it becomes a case of, "this will look flawless with a 6/0, and will show an uneven surface and take 5 times longer with a 0". Or, another way to look at it is that with a nice, super-fine brush, I can achieve better models in less time.

At the risk of sounding elitist, it really depends on how much detail you want to invest in each model, and how much satisfaction you derive from each model being as good as you can make it. If you just want units to play with, then of course you don't need any special brushes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that -- put as much effort as is fun for you! But, there are good, legitimate use cases for superfine brushes.

I think the size of brush just comes down to preference. I myself am not an awesome painter, but I rarely feel the need for a brush smaller than size 1. It has a good tip so as long as I don't press too far in to the model I can produce as fine detail with a 1 as I can with anything smaller, but with the added benefit of holding more paint and drying less.

I actually really struggled to paint details like eyes until I moved to larger brushes because by the time I got the brush from the palette to the model the paint was starting to dry and so wouldn't flow properly. (though I also didn't experiment with drying retarder back then)

But then I can also see how some people might like to have smaller brushes if that's what they prefer. I think if I were painting using enamels I might consider smaller brushes more often. The reason I switched to larger brushes even for fine detail stuff was seeing the incredibly fine detailed work of other painters who were just using size 1 or 2 brushes which got me away from the mindset of "the brush should be small to paint small things" and on to "the tip needs to be good to paint small things and overall size is less important".

 Talys wrote:
@Beafraid --

I would disagree. I've painted countless hordes of models since the 80's, I have perfect vision, and I think that I have excellent hand/brush control. I can easily do very detailed work (like eyes, tiny wet-blended areas, freehand writing, etc.) efficiently, almost always without correction, yet, taking 3 of the last 4 models I painted, I don't think it would be practical (for me) without a 00 or 6/0. The fourth was a Stormraven, so no tiny brush required there.

On this one, writing FURIOSO in a space barely larger than 1/4" (7 characters, so each character + space is allotted 0.035 inches) on the chest, and on about a half inch on the legplate:

Spoiler:

Or proper eyes:

Spoiler:

On basic troops that I do in a relatively short time (I'm whipping up 30 of these right now), doing visors properly requires at least a 00. I did the orange swish and the white dot with a 6/0:

Spoiler:

It's not always a case of "could I do it with a 0" -- yes, but usually, it would mean painting a wider line than intended, then covering it with another paint. So it becomes a case of, "this will look flawless with a 6/0, and will show an uneven surface and take 5 times longer with a 0". Or, another way to look at it is that with a nice, super-fine brush, I can achieve better models in less time.

At the risk of sounding elitist, it really depends on how much detail you want to invest in each model, and how much satisfaction you derive from each model being as good as you can make it. If you just want units to play with, then of course you don't need any special brushes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that -- put as much effort as is fun for you! But, there are good, legitimate use cases for superfine brushes.

ROFL I saw you at the store on Friday with your Blood Angels Talys! Those are such beautiful models. I don't think I could play with models that were that pretty. That was a pretty big haul you made off with. How long will it take you to paint all that stuff you bought?

And hello Dakka! I've watched this forum for a long time, but just as a lurker!

So what's the best fine detail brush I can get around Melbourne considering budget, relative quality and the fact that I'm a newb?

@Vyxen - haha.. hey there It was nice to meet you. Thank you for the kind words about my BA!

I must confess that a lot of those models will enter my ever-growing library of things that won't get painted unless I live as long as the Emperor. As someone else once said on Dakka, it's a case of my wallet being mightier than my paintbrush. Although, in fairness, some of them were to replenish holes in my library That is, when I open up my last razorback, drop pod, tactical or other common box, I'll always go and buy one or two more to go onto the shelf, even if I have no plan to use them right then.

@Auroch - I'm not in that neck of the woods, but Rosemary & Co. seems to get a lot of love there. I will re-iterate though, if you're new to painting, the $5-ish GW brushes are pretty usable, and probably quite accessible. They are Kolinsky Sable, and just watch some of the tutorial videos by GW on YouTube. Duncan Rhodes does some fine work with them.

 Auroch wrote:
So what's the best fine detail brush I can get around Melbourne considering budget, relative quality and the fact that I'm a newb?

I'm gonna agree with Talys here, just get the GW brush. It's a fine brush to start out with.


And as both I and Chromedog suggested, nick into Mind Games on Swanson St in the city. They have a great range, friendly staff and easily accessible. 5 minute walk either way from Melb Central station or Flinders St station.

Here's the address. 244 Swanston Street, Melbourne, 3000

If you're limiting yourself to Melbourne I'm not really sure because even though I live here I haven't bought a brush from a local stores in many years, I always just buy online. The only one I can really suggest is the GW brush... but I suggest it fully knowing you can probably get something better for a similar price and yet not knowing where in Melbourne you might buy one

To me, even on their own website the GW brushes don't look like great brushes to me. The standard brush doesn't appear to form a natural point and typically that's the size I'd suggest for doing fine detail work. So I'd be looking for a Kolinsky sable brush that DOES form a nice natural point.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If you're limiting yourself to Melbourne I'm not really sure because even though I live here I haven't bought a brush from a local stores in many years, I always just buy online. The only one I can really suggest is the GW brush... but I suggest it fully knowing you can probably get something better for a similar price and yet not knowing where in Melbourne you might buy one

To me, even on their own website the GW brushes don't look like great brushes to me. The standard brush doesn't appear to form a natural point and typically that's the size I'd suggest for doing fine detail work. So I'd be looking for a Kolinsky sable brush that DOES form a nice natural point.

The standard brush is a basecoating beast and lousy for detail work. A high end size 1 has a point that's not just sharp but gives you maybe a half millimeter to work with where it stays fine. A standard gw has almost nothing, so anything other than a feather touch and you lose precision.

The detail brush is like a size 0, and the fine detail brush is like a 00 and they hold a point relatively well. The 'Eavy Metal detail brush that gets bundled in some kits is exactly like a W&N S7 00 with a nicer handle.

Yeah, my size 1 brush forms a really good point and is similar price to GW's standard brush, so it's pretty good for detail work and basecoating, but I have one set aside for detail work to avoid messing it up.

But I dunno where you'd buy it in Melb, I bought mine from TCC.

I didn't think GW sold the 'eavy metal brush anymore. Actually on the AU website even the fine detail AND detail brush is listed as sold out, "no longer available", maybe you can still get them in stores though,

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, my size 1 brush forms a really good point and is similar price to GW's standard brush, so it's pretty good for detail work and basecoating, but I have one set aside for detail work to avoid messing it up.

But I dunno where you'd buy it in Melb, I bought mine from TCC.

I didn't think GW sold the 'eavy metal brush anymore. Actually on the AU website even the fine detail AND detail brush is listed as sold out, "no longer available", maybe you can still get them in stores though,

The last time I picked up a couple of those, the Edge Paint set was on clearance for $25. You got a full set of edge paints (9?) and 1 'eavy metal brush -- which was a fantastic deal. Of course, the edge paints are so light that they'll literally last forever lol.. so I have like, 2-3 extra of every edge paint

Thanks for all the info guys. I think I'll probably go with the GW brush. I hope it won't break up on me though :S

Brush care is important if you want a brush to last and not break up. Avoid getting paint around the ferrule, clean the brush frequently (every few minutes of painting) to get paint off before it has too much of a chance to dry, wash it IMMEDIATELY if paint gets up near the ferrule, and use a soap to clean the brush after use. You can buy brush soaps around but I've had pretty good luck just using a bar of cheap hand soap (Imperial Leather to be precise!). To clean with the soap, rinse the brush in water, then swirl it through the soap (being careful not to kink the bristles) and then gentle rub the soap in to the brush (I just use my fingers or swirl it around on the palm of my hand) then rinse the soap out with water.

Good care is a huge part of keeping a good point on a detail brush regardless of how much it cost.

Skink has described the two things that will give your brushes hundreds of hours of use (or more!).

The problem is, when you start out, keeping paint out of the ferrule doesn't really come naturally. And, keeping your brushes clean is a discipline that most people have to acquire.

Personally, I think Winsor & Newton Brush Cleaner and Restorer is easier to use than soap, because it's a full liquid that can be decanted into a small jar, and reused for several days. The stuff works like a champ, and is more painless than soapy water or soap, as it works instantly. It costs about $20 for 1L; painting quite a lot, I use about 3L / year, and a lot of that goes to cleaning drybrushes.

Keep in mind there is very little you can do to keep whatever brushes you use for basecoating in fantastic condition (because you have to jam it into nooks and crannies).

Anyhow -- this the main reasons I don't suggest people starting out go and buy a half dozen $15-$20 paintbrushes. If you're gonna kill some brushes, do it to cheap ones

Has anyone just tried pumping some liquid hand soap into the water pot and mixing it in?

Would that work I wonder?
I guess it wouldn't be as "potent" as using actual soap. But I can't see it hurting.

Do I really have to use soap? I've heard of brush cleaners before but using ordinary soap sounds a little weird.

 Auroch wrote:
Do I really have to use soap? I've heard of brush cleaners before but using ordinary soap sounds a little weird.

If you want the brush to last you have to use something. You can get brush soap from art suppliers.

Ordinary hand soap is a hell of a lot better than just water. If I clean my brush off thoroughly with water a lot of paint will still come out when I clean it with the soap. You notice it when you get paint on your hands, try and wash it off just with water and it'll take a whole lot more scrubbing than if you'd used soap.

However I don't think regular hand soap will do much if you've let the paint fully dry in the brush.