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Kharn is missing from the book, Bloodthirster summon doesn't work, as you'll have to wait 2 turns until it starts doing anything (while people on the forums still try to make it happen).

So what is that's actually good, even competitive in the new codex?

I think Maulerfiend spam jumps out as something that won't suck.

FnP hounds and nigh unlimited maulerfiends/ soul grinders seem to be the best things. It's definitely not a cheese codex though, but one that doesn't punish you for taking a lot of little fast units.

MSU spam seems to be the name of the game here. The fact that you can get blood points from a rhino popping is just great in my mind, cause that's basically what they do anyway, so you might as well get something out of it.

Also the sheer amount of fast and tough units you can take is just nuts. I'm tooling around with a list that has two big units of hounds, two units of bikes, a soul grinder, two maulerfiends, a bloodthirster, and a daemon Prince. I don't care what army you're fighting, SOMETHING is making it to CC by turn 2.

It seems a little balanced. There are a few rules in the codex that are a bit lame, But Overall I like the codex and cant wait to try it out.

 TNT925 wrote:
MSU spam seems to be the name of the game here. The fact that you can get blood points from a rhino popping is just great in my mind, cause that's basically what they do anyway, so you might as well get something out of it.

Also the sheer amount of fast and tough units you can take is just nuts. I'm tooling around with a list that has two big units of hounds, two units of bikes, a soul grinder, two maulerfiends, a bloodthirster, and a daemon Prince. I don't care what army you're fighting, SOMETHING is making it to CC by turn 2.

But dont forget that by turn 2 you might have enough Tithe Points to summon a BT (If one isnt your Warlord already) you still have to drop down in turn 3 in order to charge turn 4, and only if you dont get blasted away. Personally I like the idea of multiple Maulerfiends rushing at enemies, but they are still pretty weak in CC against most ICs these days and equally as bad in CC against other MCs and Walkers.

They are hurt badly being the Engine of Destruction they claim to be in the eyes of Lore and GW standards for Chaos, given that they are only WS3. Basically anything WS4 will give you a hard time since you're trying to bank on your Fiends getting their Melta hits off, but in order for you to even do so you have to actually hit. Which brings up the issue of trying to run them with their Lashers to lessen the inevitable blow they will doubtingly suffer at the hands of being in CC with things like MCs or other walkers, or do you hope for even more luck by banking on a single 4+ to hit roll (Or 5+ depending on the enemy you're facing)

Cultists in rhinos. Ride them up, let the rhino get destroyed and run that unit of cultists into the closest thing. If they die blood point, if they kill something blood point. Win win. Those are 85 point units that can net 2 blood points

Is it really worth banking your entire list off blood tithe points though? Actually wondering, since I've only had a chance to look over the scanned pictures of the codex in the other thread. Not sure how powerful the blood tithe points are yet.

I do like the idea of multiple maulerfiends, since they tend to be huge bullet sponges anyways. Target saturation and eventually something melee nasty will make it in.

 clamclaw wrote:
Is it really worth banking your entire list off blood tithe points though? Actually wondering, since I've only had a chance to look over the scanned pictures of the codex in the other thread. Not sure how powerful the blood tithe points are yet.

I do like the idea of multiple maulerfiends, since they tend to be huge bullet sponges anyways. Target saturation and eventually something melee nasty will make it in.

Being able to trade in a few 85 point units of cultists for say a bloodthurster is pretty powerful. Giving the entire army FnP, etc. The bonuses are pretty good

 namiel wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
Is it really worth banking your entire list off blood tithe points though? Actually wondering, since I've only had a chance to look over the scanned pictures of the codex in the other thread. Not sure how powerful the blood tithe points are yet.

I do like the idea of multiple maulerfiends, since they tend to be huge bullet sponges anyways. Target saturation and eventually something melee nasty will make it in.

Being able to trade in a few 85 point units of cultists for say a bloodthurster is pretty powerful. Giving the entire army FnP, etc. The bonuses are pretty good

And since only units that have this special rule collect blood points (either killing or being killed), you need to build your army around the mechanic to be able to use it.

If you summon your Bloodthirster the 2nd turn, he'll be able to assault on the 4th turn. That may be late.

Zsolt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
Is it really worth banking your entire list off blood tithe points though? Actually wondering, since I've only had a chance to look over the scanned pictures of the codex in the other thread. Not sure how powerful the blood tithe points are yet.

I do like the idea of multiple maulerfiends, since they tend to be huge bullet sponges anyways. Target saturation and eventually something melee nasty will make it in.

Being able to trade in a few 85 point units of cultists for say a bloodthurster is pretty powerful. Giving the entire army FnP, etc. The bonuses are pretty good

And since only units that have this special rule collect blood points (either killing or being killed), you need to build your army around the mechanic to be able to use it.

If you summon your Bloodthirster the 2nd turn, he'll be able to assault on the 4th turn. That may be late.

Why does he have to wait 2 turns to charge? Almost everything in the army has the blood tithe rule. I think we only found one thing without it.

Well Its the weakest units from the CD book (aside from fleshounds and soul grinder) and the weakest units from the CSM book. So slapping them together and basing the snowball off winning CC (which neither book seems to be able to do when its mono god) wont make for the best games.

Bloodthirsters have wings, when you summon an FMC they are flying, not on the ground. So he has to land, wait, then charge.

 namiel wrote:

Zsolt wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
Is it really worth banking your entire list off blood tithe points though? Actually wondering, since I've only had a chance to look over the scanned pictures of the codex in the other thread. Not sure how powerful the blood tithe points are yet.

I do like the idea of multiple maulerfiends, since they tend to be huge bullet sponges anyways. Target saturation and eventually something melee nasty will make it in.

Being able to trade in a few 85 point units of cultists for say a bloodthurster is pretty powerful. Giving the entire army FnP, etc. The bonuses are pretty good

And since only units that have this special rule collect blood points (either killing or being killed), you need to build your army around the mechanic to be able to use it.

If you summon your Bloodthirster the 2nd turn, he'll be able to assault on the 4th turn. That may be late.

Why does he have to wait 2 turns to charge? Almost everything in the army has the blood tithe rule. I think we only found one thing without it.

Everything in the codex has blood tithe, but allies do not. That's his point, I believe. Anyhow, when summoning you deploy the units through deep strike. Bloodthirsters are FMCs. FMCs always swoop when deep striking. You then have to wait to your next turn to swap to gliding, which then forces you to wait another turn to charge. Which means you have to wait until turn 3 to charge if you have 8 blood points at the start of your turn, which is rather unbelievable. More probable is that your summoned thirsters get to charge turn 5, by which they are probably too late to contribute.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 TNT925 wrote:
MSU spam seems to be the name of the game here. The fact that you can get blood points from a rhino popping is just great in my mind, cause that's basically what they do anyway, so you might as well get something out of it.

Also the sheer amount of fast and tough units you can take is just nuts. I'm tooling around with a list that has two big units of hounds, two units of bikes, a soul grinder, two maulerfiends, a bloodthirster, and a daemon Prince. I don't care what army you're fighting, SOMETHING is making it to CC by turn 2.

But dont forget that by turn 2 you might have enough Tithe Points to summon a BT (If one isnt your Warlord already) you still have to drop down in turn 3 in order to charge turn 4, and only if you dont get blasted away. Personally I like the idea of multiple Maulerfiends rushing at enemies, but they are still pretty weak in CC against most ICs these days and equally as bad in CC against other MCs and Walkers.

They are hurt badly being the Engine of Destruction they claim to be in the eyes of Lore and GW standards for Chaos, given that they are only WS3. Basically anything WS4 will give you a hard time since you're trying to bank on your Fiends getting their Melta hits off, but in order for you to even do so you have to actually hit. Which brings up the issue of trying to run them with their Lashers to lessen the inevitable blow they will doubtingly suffer at the hands of being in CC with things like MCs or other walkers, or do you hope for even more luck by banking on a single 4+ to hit roll (Or 5+ depending on the enemy you're facing)

I guess I don't really look at the maulerfiend as something to throw at infantry and MC units though. I see them as being building and vehicle crackers. The hounds, bikes, and MC's are for fighting infantry and other MC's.

In my opinion soul grinders are all around better than maulerfiends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, everybody is forgetting the cheapest unit is 1 man spawn units for 32 points. Also, due to their speed and cc ability they are something your opponent has to deal with.

 herpguy wrote:
In my opinion soul grinders are all around better than maulerfiends.

Thats right! Soul Grinders can be taken in this codex, I keep thinking along the lines of the standard CSM codex. I think Soul Grinders and Maulerfiends serve different roles, though. Maulers are great at popping heavy armor or the odd building, where a Soul Grinder has the ranged benefit and +1 higher armor value.

Although, Maulers do get the 12" movement with no penalties for dangerous terrain (siege crawler).

The Ability to easily mix Heldrakes, Mauler Fiends, Bikers, and Fleshhounds into one army with a Army Wide rule of providing FNP and RAge + Furious Charge is incredibly good.

People don't seem to get that but this codex is similar to the Dark Eldar, in that you don't see the real benefits until the 2nd turn of the game where you can easily have more blood points.

A key point is that upgraded Characters in units are a good way to get Blood Points from your enemy shooting you because the rule currently as written just means that when they're slain they give a blood point.

Combine this with the fact that Chaos Space Marines get the following rules for 15 points a model.


Rage , Furious charge, Feel No Pain

When taking them in a Slaughter cult and you get a army that's very resilient has a high rate of attacks and can put out Anti-Tank like nobodies business.


It's a hidden boon and i don't think people realize what the capabilities of the Slaughter Cult are, but should also point out that it is not easy to get Heldrakes in the Blood host Detachment.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Bloodthirsters have wings, when you summon an FMC they are flying, not on the ground. So he has to land, wait, then charge.

This isn't true:

Bloodthirsters are summoned via Blood Tithe at the beginning of your turn. It doesn't say Movement Phase, it says Your Turn which is a very different thing from Movement Phase. Normal Deep Striking units happen at the start of the Movement Phase. Bloodthirsters are summoned before the start of your Movement Phase.

In the Movement Phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Did the Bloodthirster arrive in the Movement Phase?

No. It explicitly says it arrives before the Movement Phase.

Therefore the Deep Strike quote above is irrelevant to the issue, as it only applies to those units that arrive in the Movement Phase.

In fact, the quote only says that those that arrived in the Movement Phase cannot move any further. So the summoned Bloodthirster can not only change flight modes, but can also move normally. However they cannot charge still.

Sequence of events:

1) Bloodthirster is summoned at the Start of Your Turn and is counted at Swooping.

2) Movement Phase begins. You must declare the flight mode as the rules tell you. You can choose to change flight modes now.

That simple. The rule says nothing about Reserves, and the inclusion of the Movement Phase specifically in the Deep Strike rule makes it largely irrelevant to the Bloodthirster summoning.

Prove me wrong.

I've spent some time trying to make the book work, and just about everything in it is a sidegrade or nerf to what you can already do with CSM, Even the big winners like summoning BTs and army-wide FNP have little snags to make them undesirable.
The conclusion I have come to is that the Host superformation is not worth the investment. The mandatory deadweight of Possessed, Marked Troops and a Lord that doesn't have the AoBF, do enough damage that the free Tithe points are not worth pursuing. You don't need double-claims when the best result is the FNP, you don't need free points when the best result only needs 3, and you don't need the Relics when the stock ones are better.
To that end, the best use of this book seems to be an allied Gorepack into a Khorne CSM primary CAD, making extensive use of IA:13 units.
The result is that Daemonkin provides a truckload of 4++, HoW Flesh Hounds without paying the deadweight for Bloodletters or risking/paying for the Grimoire. You still create a decent amount of anti-air and -tank from the FW units, and your Lord still has an ass-kicking Axe. Plus he can now hide in Hounds rather than Unmarked Spawn.


Say as an 1850pt list:

Chaos Marine CAD

Chaos Lord- Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut, Sigil of Corruption, Axe of Blind Fury, Meltabombs
Cultists- 10
Cultists- 10
Helblade- Helstorm Autocannons
Helblade- Helstorm Autocannons
Dreadclaw Drop Pod- First War of Armageddon
Rapier Battery- 2 Guns, Hades Autocannons
Rapier Battery- 2 Guns, Hades Autocannons

Daemonkin Gorepack

Bikers- 2 Meltaguns
Bikers- 2 Meltaguns
Bikers- 2 Meltaguns
Flesh Hounds- 14
Flesh Hounds- 14
Flesh Hounds- 14

In this case, the Dreadclaw arrives as a 'beacon' that provides a 4++ invulnerable save to all nearby Flesh Hounds. The enemy likely only has a single turn to act before being buried in Hounds and so killing an unarmed Drop Pod is not necessarily a winning situation for them.
If the 6" range on the Dreadclaw turns out to be insufficient, it can always be replaced for a Maulerfiend or traded in alongside some Bikes for a Fire Raptor.
In any event, I would think this list to be stronger than anything produced purely from the Daemonkin book.

Yeah the gorepack is the best thing in the book in my eyes.

oohhh i've been trying so hard to get the armageddon legacy to work. sadly the dreadclaw can't take it as it has daemonic possession.

A fire raptor would be a better choice.

Huh, well I will be damned, ignatius is right. Since the unit is summoned during the start of turn phase BEFORE the movement phase, it can change flight modes. Now I dont think it can move any futher but still, pretty neat.

Also again, Chaos Space Marine units in this army are actually fairly good because of the 2 weapons and getting that mass number of attacks.

 Leth wrote:
Huh, well I will be damned, ignatius is right. Since the unit is summoned during the start of turn phase BEFORE the movement phase, it can change flight modes. Now I dont think it can move any futher but still, pretty neat.

No it can't. The fact it happens before the movement phase doesn't change anything. You change flight modes when the FMC moves and since it deep striked the summoned BT doesn't move that turn. No move means no changing flight mode

 Ignatius wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Bloodthirsters have wings, when you summon an FMC they are flying, not on the ground. So he has to land, wait, then charge.

This isn't true:

Bloodthirsters are summoned via Blood Tithe at the beginning of your turn. It doesn't say Movement Phase, it says Your Turn which is a very different thing from Movement Phase. Normal Deep Striking units happen at the start of the Movement Phase. Bloodthirsters are summoned before the start of your Movement Phase.

In the Movement Phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Did the Bloodthirster arrive in the Movement Phase?

No. It explicitly says it arrives before the Movement Phase.

Therefore the Deep Strike quote above is irrelevant to the issue, as it only applies to those units that arrive in the Movement Phase.

In fact, the quote only says that those that arrived in the Movement Phase cannot move any further. So the summoned Bloodthirster can not only change flight modes, but can also move normally. However they cannot charge still.

Sequence of events:

1) Bloodthirster is summoned at the Start of Your Turn and is counted at Swooping.

2) Movement Phase begins. You must declare the flight mode as the rules tell you. You can choose to change flight modes now.

That simple. The rule says nothing about Reserves, and the inclusion of the Movement Phase specifically in the Deep Strike rule makes it largely irrelevant to the Bloodthirster summoning.

Prove me wrong.

So you summon a Bloodthirster with blood points at the beginning of the turn, then you change flight mode, move some, run in the shooting phase, and wait for next turn to charge?

Zsolt wrote:

So you summon a Bloodthirster with blood points at the beginning of the turn, then you change flight mode, move some, run in the shooting phase, and wait for next turn to charge?

LOL, no. I don't really understand what Ignatius wants to say/do, since units do not move when they Deep Strike, but a FMC can only change modes at the start of its move:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

The argument that Ignatius is making is that since you didn't arrive in the movement phase, you can still move. The wording for deep strike is:

"Units that come in by deep strike cannot move any more in the movement phase in which they arrive"

My extension of that logically would be what you are saying, which is that they mean that you can't move during the movement phase of the turn that you deep strike in. That is HIWPI and how I assume that most tournaments will rule it. However, I can see tournaments allowing a FMC to change flight modes, as RAW that does seem kosher, so they would have to impose a non-RAW nerf specifically to this codex for that not to work, and I really don't see that happening.

 AtoMaki wrote:
LOL, no. I don't really understand what Ignatius wants to say/do, since units do not move when they Deep Strike, but a FMC can only change modes at the start of its move:

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

Indeed. If the rule had said "at the start of the movement phase", then that would change everything since units arriving from DS still get a movement phase, even if they don't/can't move. That isn't what it says, though.

 luke1705 wrote:
The argument that Ignatius is making is that since you didn't arrive in the movement phase, you can still move. The wording for deep strike is:

"Units that come in by deep strike cannot move any more in the movement phase in which they arrive"

Doh... You know, you cannot Deep Strike in the Movement phase at all, because reserves arrive at the beginning of your turn (the same time you spend your BT points). Luckily, the quote is wrong:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further

The rule specifically states that Deep Striking units in fact arrive during the Movement phase.

Is this a moment in which the Codex Supersedes the Rulebook? Cuz that wording and the wording from the Daemonkin book is absolutely horrendous.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Is this a moment in which the Codex Supersedes the Rulebook? Cuz that wording and the wording from the Daemonkin book is absolutely horrendous.

There is nothing to supersede, so no. If you spend 8 BT points to summon a Bloodthirster, then you deserve to get stuck with it for three turns. Learn to FnP/+1 A, n00b .