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Greetings and Salutations,
These things I think I shall keep short and sweet, so two simple questions this week for those who want to play along:
When does a Model gain access to the Special Rules listed on the Datasheet?
In what situations do they lose access to the Special Rules listed on the Datasheet?

You know, lets move things up a little and ask the same question but for wargear, that one was so beautiful to read when I was gone and is likely the same answer:
When does a Model gain access to the Rules attached to the Wargear listed on the Datasheet?
In what situations do they lose access to the Rules attached to the Wargear listed on the Datasheet?

There is one thing I would humbly request, and that is that we ignore the 'More then One Weapon' situation as it was well documented recently enough that people can go back and read all that needs to be said.
Now I will go silent unless directly poked, cause I don't want to lead the discussion on this baseline.

Regards,

Another overly vague question Jinx. What are you attempting to apply this to.

Are we talking formation special rules, or... what? Lay out the situation that brought up the question.

I don't know what you're asking

I think you're going to have to explain what you're trying to achieve with this line of questioning.

The Datasheet has a list of Special Rules granted to the Models in said Unit... when exactly does said Model have access to those Rules?
Pre-game?
After deployment?
At the start of turn 1?

Off the table?
In reserves?
When Embarked?
When a Casualty?

After the last turn are they still, technically, in play?

Some questions for Rules attached to pieces of war-gear.

The answer, as always with questions this broad, is "depends".

They always have the rule, unless something (including the rule's wording) tells us they don't (More Than One Weapon being another example).

Marneus Calgar always has Eternal Warrior, even when packed away in your closet. A Space Marine Captain with a Lightning Claw always has Shred, unless he's attacking with a different weapon. Illuminor Szeras always has a specific Warlord Trait, unless you've nominated someone else as your Warlord. Etc, etc, etc.

I will say that this is a general statement that can't necessarily be applied in every situation. You'd need to give specific rules examples if you have something in mind.

Jinx, stop trying to pretend you're the smartest person in the room.

I was hoping people would get curious with some of these questions and begin to probe for themselves, come to conclusions and then inform us what those conclusions are on their own merits. Not to mention I hate being the Opening Poster and the person dominating a thread at the same time, seems sort of masturbatory. Oh well, I guess I will just have to return to the default way things are handled here... bring up broken situations and then yell at people to provide Rule Quotes when they provide How I Would Play it responses as if they where the actual Rules.

The problem was simple:
What wording in the Special Rule, either the body of the Rule itself or those granting permission to access the Rule, prevent them from applying to Models removed as a Casualty?

No one cares enough to play your dumb game.

Clearly,
I guess I will have to condone myself with the fact Rule as Written allow me to have Feel No Pain on my Noise Marines even after the banner bearer is killed, and others shenanigans, as no one wants to provide a Rule which strip access to these Rules. Not to mention the numerous way to bring 'Unit Wide effects' while still being on a single Model, the fact they remain part of the Unit and still have access to Special Rules makes them a massive multiplier, as simply killing them is no longer an option to remove the multiplier.

Of course, does make my prime 'Character Hunter' useless... she used to be very good at picking off Models that grant 'Unit Wide' Special Rules or war-gear.

JinxDragon wrote:
I was hoping people would get curious with some of these questions and begin to probe for themselves, come to conclusions and then inform us what those conclusions are on their own merits. I guess I will just have to return to the default way things are handled here, bring up broken situations and then yell at people to provide Rule Quotes when they provide How I Would Play it responses as if they where the actual Rules.

The problem is simple:
What wording in the Special Rule itself prevents them from applying to a Model removed as a Casualty?
Same with Wargear?

Jinx, it entirely depends on which rule you're talking about. If Marneus Calgar is removed as a Casualty, he still has Eternal Warrior. Eternal Warrior just won't do anything outside the context of a model being on the table and taking a wound. The overwhelming majority of rules work this way. Shred is useless outside of combat or off the table. A unit with Stealth can't practically benefit from the +1 to cover save if they're in Ongoing Reserves. They still have Stealth... they still get +1 to cover save. They'll just never use it while in Ongoing Reserves.

Do you have an example of a rule you think would cause an issue when a model is removed as a casualty?

Kriswall:
Any Special Rule containing the 'One or Model in the Unit' wording would thus cause problems, if there is nothing which removes access when they are 'off the table.'
I am trying to find that something!

JinxDragon wrote:
Clearly,
I guess I will have to condone myself with the fact Rule as Written allow me to have Feel No Pain on my Noise Marines even after the banner bearer is killed, and others shenanigans, as no one wants to provide a Rule which strip access to these Rules. Not to mention the numerous way to bring 'Unit Wide effects' while still being on a single Model, the fact they remain part of the Unit and still have access to Special Rules makes them a massive multiplier, as simply killing them is no longer an option to remove the multiplier.

Of course, does make my prime 'Character Hunter' useless... she used to be very good at picking off Models that grant 'Unit Wide' Special Rules or war-gear.

Please read the "How do I know what special rules I have" section of the rulebook.

Your assertion fails on its face.

JinxDragon wrote:
Kriswall:
Any Special Rule containing the 'One or Model in the Unit' wording would thus cause problems, if there is nothing which removes access when they are 'off the table.'
I am trying to find that something!

Ah, I see what you're beginning to get at.

This connects back to your previous, 'is a dead model still considered part of a unit' question.

My take...

A model which has been removed as a casualty is still part of the Unit for army list purposes. HOWEVER, he's not currently in the Unit. He's off the table. He would still have access to his Special Rules... but again, they wouldn't do anything as he's been removed as a casualty and moved out of the unit and off the table. He's still part of the unit for something like VP calculations. He's just not "in the Unit".

Kriswall
Indeed, that is why I wanted to split the two apart without making it damn obvious. Trying to get people to focus on both sides of the problem before they consider how the two situations are interacting and try to dismiss the interaction itself. Didn't handle the matter all that great but hell, the presentation was part of the experiment itself and I got good enough information from it as well. Just reminds me why I don't open many threads, which is sad because there are so many basic problems people over look that I probably won't touch now.... Such as the lack of 'move around' instructions making it impossible to move around terrain without it taking a roughly three turns!

I do have a request before I proceed, as I am at work:
Can you PM me the wording of Tank Hunter and a few of the other so I can confirm some things... I don't think I am forgetting something, just want to make sure before I proceed.

JinxDragon wrote:
Kriswall
Indeed, that is why I wanted to split the two apart without making it damn obvious. Trying to get people to focus on both sides of the problem before they consider how the two situations are interacting and try to dismiss the interaction itself. Didn't handle the matter all that great but hell, the presentation was part of the experiment itself and I got good enough information from it as well. Just reminds me why I don't open many threads, which is sad because there are so many basic problems people over look that I probably won't touch now.... Such as the lack of 'move around' instructions making it impossible to move around terrain without it taking a roughly three turns!

I do have a request before I proceed, as I am at work:
Can you PM me the wording of Tank Hunter and a few of the other so I can confirm some things... I don't think I am forgetting something, just want to make sure before I proceed.

PM sent.

Thank you, as expected.
A unit that contains at least one model is what I expected...

Does the Unit contain Models after Death?
I would say Yes, Models do not cease to be part of the Unit as per last weeks pondering.

JinxDragon,

I can appreciate you wanting to break an argument down into its constituent parts. However, due to the complexity of the game and the many interactions contained therein, it is not an efficient method of communication, and looking at it in parts can lead to improper understandings. For example, the armour penetration roll is Strength + a D6 roll. No one would argue that. However, there are many situations where this is incorrect! If a model is modifying their strength, has a bonus to armour penetration rolls, has armourbane, or counts armour as being lower than the printed value, are all additional situations that might influence the end result.

Following this example, we're worried that you might show up and ask how armour penetration worked. Say we explained, as above, that it was the Strength + D6 roll. But then you might turn around and say that your opponent's Bright Lance armour penetration roll of 5 didn't penetrate or even glance the Leman Russ's front armour of 14, because Strength + D6 was 13. We'd then have to go back and re-explain how, as an exception to that rule, the Brightlance counts the vehicle's armour as being 12, and not 14, and so works. It makes the previously asked question pointless, and at worse causes issues when you go to apply the result in-game.


In this instance, your actual question that you and Kriswall discussed was a valid question! How do you distinguish a model from a unit when a model with a special rule confers a benefit to a unit, and then that model leaves the table? Where in the rules does it state that the unit loses the special rule? But just asking "when does a unit have a special rule?" is misleading. The basic idea is "well, always, whether it's on the table or in your display case, unless a rule says that it no longer has it, and even then it'll just be for the duration of the game". But obviously, if a model has a special rule that it confers to the unit, and the model is removed from the unit, then why shouldn't the model continue to apply its benefit? It's a vastly different question, even if the two may deal with similar-looking things.



As to answer that question, units only exist on the table, and in reserve. In your army list, they are dataslate entries. The dataslate entry's special rules apply at all times, even outside of a game. However, the dataslate entry's special rules won't (generally) be able to apply to anything until the game starts and the units are "created" to be placed onto the table or in reserves.

Yarium,
Thank you for your well written and thought out post, your break down of my attempted format is very adapt and accurate.

I do have to ask:
Any Rule Quotes to support the concept that Units only exist when they are on the table?

JinxDragon wrote:
Thank you, as expected.
A unit that contains at least one model is what I expected...

Does the Unit contain Models after Death?
I would say Yes, Models do not cease to be part of the Unit as per last weeks pondering.

Please don't quote part of the rule and pretend it proves your point.

Then quote the whole of the four or five related Rules, underline the part which negates the quoted Clause and explain why it does so.

How is the model part of the unit after death? It would give to maintain coherency, which you will find difficult.

JinxDragon wrote:
Then quote the whole of the four or five related Rules, underline the part which negates the quoted Clause and explain why it does so.

First, let's address the entire rule, and not the butchered version, shall we?

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule...

(snipped because you're trying to discuss this more general statement and not a specific rule)
Well, how do we know if a model has a special rule?

It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.

Awesome!
Does that mean Army List Entries are used by things not in play? Well, let's back up a bit. What's a model?

And what are Army List Entries?


Okay, so does the special rule in question exist on the Army List Entry? We'll go with your FNP example.

All models with the Mark of Slannesh in a unit equipped with an icon of excess have the Feel No Pain special rule

Poorly written as it is - the unit can't be equipped with an Icon, only a model in the unit can.

One model in the unit may take an icon of excess...

As opposed to

The unit may take the Veterans of the Long War special rule...

But let's roll with it.

For your assertion to be true, a model must remain part of a unit even while removed as a casualty. Agreed?

If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.

REMOVED AS A CASUALTY AND COMPLETELY DESTROYED
Models that are removed as casualties are removed from the table and placed to one side. When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been ‘completely destroyed’.
Models that are ‘removed from play’ by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the game rules are concerned.

The rulebook is pretty loose with "RFP" and "RFPaaC", mostly because it equates the terms here. It also uses another phrase to mean the same thing.

f at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

If a model has been removed from play as a casualty (because its Wounds have been reduced to zero) why are you still using it in play? Asserting that the unit still has an icon of excess even though it's been removed from play is absolutely using it in play.

To make a long story short (too late) your premise fails and as such any conclusion based on that premise also fails. Models that have been removed from play cannot be used in play - by definition.

I think the issue here is a fundamental one.

From the Forming a Unit section... "The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organized into 'units'."

So, if all models must belong to a unit, what happens when a model dies? Do you form a new unit for each model that is removed as a casualty? I would say no. I would say that nowhere in the rules are we told to form a new unit. As such, we're forced to admit that the model is still "organized" into that same, original unit.

I think this is a fundamental flaw in the game.

1. All models are organized into units.
2. When a model is removed as a casualty, we're not told to form a new unit.
3. Models removed as a casualty must still be organized into the same, original unit.
4. The unit still contains that model if that model is still organized into that unit.
5. We are told that models/units can gain special rules from an army list entry.
6. We are never told that models lose rules when they are removed as a casualty.
7. Special rules such as Shrouded should work for a unit even if the bearer has been removed as a casualty because the model still has the rule and the unit still contains the model (since the model hasn't been organized into a different unit)

Now, common sense says I'm wrong. This can't possibly be how the rules work. Maybe I'm missing some key piece of information. I hope so. This is a stupid loophole that I will never argue for in a real game example. I think it's just another example of extremely sloppy writing.

Please explain how models that are removed from play are allowed to effect play.

Once you can do that I'll agree it's sloppy writing.

JinxDragon wrote:

When does a Model gain access to the Special Rules listed on the Datasheet?

They don't 'gain access'. They have all the special rules listed on the datasheet the moment the models are organized into a legal unit using that datasheet.

JinxDragon wrote:

In what situations do they lose access to the Special Rules listed on the Datasheet?

Again, the don't loose access. They loose those special rules when we are told they loose those rules by any legal source.

JinxDragon wrote:

When does a Model gain access to the Rules attached to the Wargear listed on the Datasheet?

They don't. Again the wargear has the special rules the moment it is part of war gear carried by a member of a legal unit.

JinxDragon wrote:

In what situations do they lose access to the Rules attached to the Wargear listed on the Datasheet?

The model never looses the rule as it never had it in the 1st place. Instead the wargear looses the rule whenever we are told they loose the rule by any legal source.

 Kriswall wrote:
From the Forming a Unit section... "The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organized into 'units'."

So, if all models must belong to a unit, what happens when a model dies? .

It is removed from play, and so is functionally no longer a part of the army.

 insaniak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
From the Forming a Unit section... "The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organized into 'units'."

So, if all models must belong to a unit, what happens when a model dies? .

It is removed from play, and so is functionally no longer a part of the army.

A perfectly reasonable assumption, and extremely more then likely the RAI. Unfortunately the RAW makes no such assertion. If you look it this from a purely RAW perspective, and you absolutely should not, then a model removed as a casualty is still a model in your army, in that unit, and still has all his special rules.

In which case, as Nos pointed out before, your casualties and the remaining unit members will need to move to regain coherency, which is going to make playing out the rest of the game somewhat problematic.