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Some have questioned elsewhere on the forum as to exactly when units arrive from reserves- at the start of the movement phase, or the start of turn. 99% of the time this makes no difference, but as it can affect the sequencing of some effects that occur at the start of the turn, it's worth knowing.

So let's look at the rules and see if we can draw conclusions. This is my own interpretation.

Definitions of start of turn and movement phase

Rulebook, p17

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an event or action happens 'at the start of your turn'/ These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

The Turn summary table also makes clear, that you resolve your start of turn actions, then take your movement phase

Your movement phase is defined as: "you move any of your units which are capable of doing so."

p18
"In your turn, you can move any of your units- all of them if you wish - up to their maximum move distance."
"Models move up to 6" in the movement phase"
All clear so far. The movement phase is when things move. We know that there are other types of move, but these are all have their own definition (consolidation move, run move etc.) and the movement phase is for your normal move. All other instances of movement are defined specifically.
Ok so what about reserves?


p135 Arriving from reserve

"At the start of your second turn, you must roll a d6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve - These are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn."
Ok so the first line establishes that reserve rolls happen at the start of the turn. It also tells us that is a Reserve Roll is passed in turn two, the unit arrives this turn, but doesn't actually tell us when the unit is expected to arrive.

The next paragraph establishes what happens in turns three and four.

"At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn" again, arrives this turn.
"If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."
So this line is telling us that at the start of the fourth turn, the roll to see if a unit arrives is automatically passed.

The last paragraph establishes the sequencing.

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below" (next page) "Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on unit all arriving units are on the table"
So units are moving on using normal rules for movement, not any special move.
"The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."
This establishes a strict sequence, Roll for all Reserves (at start of turn), then move all arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. This tells us that units that arrive, must move before all other units, and cannot move again.
We aren't explicitly told when in this sequence the movement phase starts, but given that moves happen in the movement phase, it's obvious that this is true for reserve moves also.

P136 Moving on From Reserve,
"When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling players edge" so again, a standard move, which we logically assume is the 6" move we know from the movement phase. "
"A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve." So we have a blanket ban on charging that turn, and another element of sequencing, that arriving units cannot do anything that must be done at the start of turn, which makes sense as the start of turn is complete.

Ongoing Reserves
"Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves."
This is a bit odd as we haven't been told what re-enter play means, we aren't even told what leaving play means (not even on p85 which defines leaving combat airspace), but we are told to follow the normal rules for Reserves, so it's fairly easy to interpret what is meant, which is that you do not have to make a Reserve Roll at the start of the turn, it is automatically passed (As we would expect).

There are some other special rules which feature reserves:
p162, Deep Strike
"Roll for the arrival of Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...
"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

So we are told that Deep strikers arrive in the movement phase, and do not get to move further other than to disembark. This is exactly as we would expect.

p167, infiltrate, outflank.
"When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserves, the controlling player rolls.... Models move onto the table as described from reserves" - as you would expect.


This all makes sequential and logical sense, with no obvious contradictions.
Ok, sorry this was a bit long, but I hope people found my interpretation useful. I am confident that there will be other interpretations, but those I've seen so far rely upon misquoting small parts of the rules, without reading them through in entirety.

Please take the time to read the thread before posting your own interpretations.

Happy Gaming!

It doesn't look like it's explicitly stated, but I think your interpretation works. I'll certainly use it in HIWPI.

Reserves arrive at the start of the turn just as the rulebook clearly states.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Reserves arrive at the start of the turn just as the rulebook clearly states.

Yeah except it doesn't clearly state that or you would of course have provided a quote. Captyn_Bob has cited pretty much all the relevant rules and has presented a strong case for reserves moving on in the movement phase. Although is isn't explicitly stated (either way), the way the Reserves rules are written is very compatible with them arriving during the Movement Phase and there are no rules or conflicts suggesting that this isn't the case. It also doesn't make the rule about moving the reserves units first before your other units redundant.

"At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn" again, arrives this turn.
"If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."
So this line is telling us that at the start of the fourth turn, the roll to see if a unit arrives is automatically passed.

No. It's telling you it automatically arrives at the start of the turn.
It literally says that. Any other interpretation is deliberate misinterpretation.

It says at the start of you turn, why are you ignoring that part of the quote.


In the other thread, there was semantics about it being important when reserves arrive . The word arrive, was central to the argument. You can't take "arrive" to mean something different now, such as "passing the reserve roll", because then it would apply to the rest of the reserves.

Since the quote says it arrives at the start of your fourth turn, and the same of ongoing reserves,

Are these the rule or the exception? That is the only really relevant question here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

"At the start of your second turn, you must roll a d6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve - These are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn."
Ok so the first line establishes that reserve rolls happen at the start of the turn. It also tells us that is a Reserve Roll is passed in turn two, the unit arrives this turn, but doesn't actually tell us when the unit is expected to arrive.

Here you say, the reserve roll is separate to arrival. The argument here is that reserve rolls happen at the start, but arrivals in the movement phase.

That is in direct contradiction to the quote that it arrives at the start of the turn. You can't use 2 separate definitions of arrive...

harkequin wrote:

"At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn" again, arrives this turn.
"If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."
So this line is telling us that at the start of the fourth turn, the roll to see if a unit arrives is automatically passed.

No. It's telling you it automatically arrives at the start of the turn.
It literally says that. Any other interpretation is deliberate misinterpretation.

It says at the start of you turn, why are you ignoring that part of the quote.


In the other thread, there was semantics about it being important when reserves arrive . The word arrive, was central to the argument. You can't take "arrive" to mean something different now, such as "passing the reserve roll", because then it would apply to the rest of the reserves.

Since the quote says it arrives at the start of your fourth turn, and the same of ongoing reserves,

Are these the rule or the exception? That is the only really relevant question here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

"At the start of your second turn, you must roll a d6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve - These are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn."
Ok so the first line establishes that reserve rolls happen at the start of the turn. It also tells us that is a Reserve Roll is passed in turn two, the unit arrives this turn, but doesn't actually tell us when the unit is expected to arrive.

Here you say, the reserve roll is separate to arrival. The argument here is that reserve rolls happen at the start, but arrivals in the movement phase.

That is in direct contradiction to the quote that it arrives at the start of the turn. You can't use 2 separate definitions of arrive...

^ This. Reserves arrive at the start of the turn as the rules clearly state.

I get where he is coming from. " that unit arrives this turn" is not the same as 'that unit arrives immediately.' The RAW is clear about when you must roll in turns 2 and 3 but ambiguous as to when they actually arrive. The RAI might have been that the unit arrives during the moment phase as part of normal unit movement and then on turn 4 no roll is made and the units clearly arrive at the start of that turn.

I do not believe this to be the case however. The passage "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve." seems to imply a clarification on timing constraints that would only happen if the unit was arriving at the start of the turn. This passage is completely out of place if the unit arrived well after the start of the turn. Furthermore I doubt very much there is an intentional change between turns 3 & 4 as to when reserve units would arrive.

While I can't quote RAW that reserve units always arrive before the movement phase, I think the RAI is fairly clear.

A fair interpretation, but does require you to ignore the line in the deep strike rules , "in the movement phase during which it arrives"

Personally I think RAI is for all conventional moves to happen in the movement phase , but as always with RAI that's a guess.

The issue of sequencing works both ways , if all reserves arrive at the start of turn , why clarify (twice) that they move before other units.

A fair interpretation, but does require you to ignore the line in the deep strike rules , "in the movement phase during which it arrives"

You keep claiming this. That line has literally nothing to do with when reserves arrives. Saying reserves arrive at the start of the turn does not contradict that line. Saying reserves arrive during the movement phase does however contradict several rules that tell you when units arrive from reserve. Thus RaW can not be that they arrive in the movement phase. I know you desperately want your Blood Tithe Thruster to be a special flower so you can abuse poor wording by GW but it isn't and can't for many reasons. In this case reserves arrive at the start of the turn as the rules clearly state.

Please cease your personal attacks of bias and off topic ranting.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The last paragraph establishes the sequencing.

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below" (next page) "Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on unit all arriving units are on the table"
So units are moving on using normal rules for movement, not any special move.
"The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."
This establishes a strict sequence, Roll for all Reserves (at start of turn), then move all arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. This tells us that units that arrive, must move before all other units, and cannot move again.
We aren't explicitly told when in this sequence the movement phase starts, but given that moves happen in the movement phase, it's obvious that this is true for reserve moves also.

I would stop your interpretation right there: The RaW is clear and you are indeed correct.

Deploying a Unit is done (IMHO) during the movement phase. Which was the interpretation i was going for when arguing the Blood Tithe case.

However.
Arrival of a Unit is undoubtedly at the Start of the Turn (before the movement phase)

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below" (next page) "Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on unit all arriving units are on the table"

The above RaW cannot be more clear. The coloured text happens at the start of the Turn, as part of the
p135 Arriving from reserve.
But the underlines, as you are correctly saying, that moving the reserves (deployment), is *most probably* (cannot be sure) in the Movement phase, as per
P136 Moving on From Reserve.

Arrival =/= Deploying (moving on) can be supported by more RaW:
"When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling players edge"
"When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserves, the controlling player rolls.... Models move onto the table as described from reserves"
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows"

etc.

Arrival and "arriving from Reserves" (it's even a title in the BRB...) is definitely at the Start of the Turn.

Deployment and moving in from Reserves (also a separate BrB section) is probably in the movement phase. (I'd say it is, as you too are saying)



PS: as this is stemmed from the BTBT issue, the conclusion remains the same: Arrival of a Standard Deep Striking Unit is before the movement phase, same as Blood Tithe.

You make a good argument and I can't see any flaws in it. I wouldn't put too strong an emphasis on the word 'arrive' as it can be used in a number of ways.
If you don't put too strong an emphasis on the meaning of the word, then the deep strike statement "movement phase during which it arrives" is no longer a contradiction, and we are happy.
(Or rather, assume that a different author wrote the DS rules, and hadn't quite got what the reserves author was doing)

To be honest I've lost all interest in the BTBT discussion as its a rules lawyering mess, with too many high emotions on both sides. But I figure we can sort out arriving from reserves amicably, as its a core rulebook issue.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You make a good argument and I can't see any flaws in it. I wouldn't put too strong an emphasis on the word 'arrive' as it can be used in a number of ways.
If you don't put too strong an emphasis on the meaning of the word, then the deep strike statement "moving phase during which it arrives" is no longer a contradiction, and we are happy.

To be honest I've lost all interest in the BTBT discussion as its a rules lawyering mess, with too many high emotions on both sides. But I figure we can sort out arriving from reserves amicably, as its a core rulebook issue.

Oh course, but as i say: "Arrives" is defined in RaW. It is supported pretty much anytime reserves or rolls is mentioned.

The strongest argument, of course, being p135 Arriving from reserve.

If you asked "When are you arriving from reserves?"
The Rulebook would say: "Read p135 Arriving from reserve."

If you asked "When are you deploying/moving on from reserves?"
The Rulebook would say: "P136 Moving on From Reserve."

If you're trying to say that there is another form of arrival (another timing for arrival), then i'd ask you to quote the part of the Rulebook that defines this.
So far, it seems that your only other reference (in the Whole book) is this one rule:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further,"

But, as i have shown in all the other threads, think of the setting of that 1 Rule.
Where is that Rule?
Part of the "DEEP STRIKE" Special Rule. So it's specific to that one rule.

Is there context for that paragraph? Well, lets break down Deep Strike shall we? How does the Rule look / is written, in format?

DEEP STRIKE
Some Fluff
[Paragraph 1] How this rule is set up. Models who need the Rule to use it, etc...

Arriving by Deep Strike
[Paragraph 2] How to arrive, and how to deploy, in bullet points. <== Notice how this paragraph covers Arrival + Deployment. Surely all the timing needed is here?

[Group of 4 Paragraphs] Restrictions that your Units face when arriving <== Notice that the only important timing here is "what phase does what rule apply?" not "when are we actually arriving?", as that was the paragraph above, or elsewhere in the rulebook

Deep Strike and Transports
[etc]


Take a further look at [Group of 4 Paragraphs]:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from (...).
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count (...)
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

A bit of a RaI argument here, but can you not see the progression?
In the Movement phase during which they arrive,
In that turn’s Shooting phase,
In that turn’s Assault phase,

What could "That" (Turn) be referring to? Those rules, in a vacuum, would make 0 sense: "In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire"
Answer this question:
In what Turn "can these units fire"?

I think we agreed on the intent on both the arriving from reserves, and deployment move sections as well as the intent of the author of the deep strike section.

Clearly we are not rolling for arrival in the movement phase, so
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from "
Cannot be talking about arrival rolling. its logical it is actually talking about a deployment move, but has used inconsistent language.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I think we agreed on the intent on both the arriving from reserves, and deployment move sections as well as the intent of the author of the deep strike section.

Clearly we are not rolling for arrival in the movement phase, so
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from "
Cannot be talking about arrival rolling. its logical it is actually talking about a deployment move, but has used inconsistent language.

Of course, and by extension of the following 3 Paragraphs, i can easily see this writing in a vacuum (because of "In what Turn "can these units fire"?"):
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from (...).
In the Shooting phase during which they arrive, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count (...).
In the Assault phase during which they arrive,however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

Which is the logical step from "In that turn’s" reply to "What turn?": The one "during which they arrive".

Otherwise they would not work in a vacuum, just as you are taking "In the Movement phase during which they arrive" in a vacuum.

So in conclusion (not sure if you're agreeing yet): "When does a unit arrive from reserves?"
At the Start of the Turn.
(Proven in RaW)

I think we can all agree a unit arrives from reserve at the start of the turn as clearly stated in the rules.

I think we do agree, as long as arrival is synonymous with 'pass your Reeves roll' and indeed 'reenter play.'
In a real game this would represent you taking your models out of the box and putting them on the side.

This is a separate step to moving the reserves onto the board.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I think we do agree, as long as arrival is synonymous with 'pass your Reeves roll' and indeed 'reenter play.'
In a real game this would represent you taking your models out of the box and putting them on the side.

This is a separate step to moving the reserves onto the board.

That is indeed all that is defined in the rulebook for "Arrival": Rolling reserves rolls and *declaring arrival* (in a way).

Deployment and moving in from reserves (and Deep Strike deployment) can very much be in the Movement phase (before any other moves).

When you're told to do something in the rules, do you do it then or later at some point when you feel like it?

rigeld2 wrote:
When you're told to do something in the rules, do you do it then or later at some point when you feel like it?

Are you referring to arrival or deployment?

(You're question is a bit vague unless it's to OP ?)

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When you're told to do something in the rules, do you do it then or later at some point when you feel like it?

Are you referring to arrival or deployment?

(You're question is a bit vague unless it's to OP ?)

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

You're told to do something when reserves arrive. Does this mean you do it later, at some inexact point, when you feel like it?
Or does it mean do X when Y?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I think we do agree, as long as arrival is synonymous with 'pass your Reeves roll' and indeed 'reenter play.'
In a real game this would represent you taking your models out of the box and putting them on the side.

This is a separate step to moving the reserves onto the board.

So we agree that we that arrival is at the start of the turn.

When you shoot and successfully hit, are you free to wait until a later phase before you roll to wound? Are you free to do anything else (that doesn't specify it interrupts this process) and go back to roll to wound at a later time or phase? Or must you proceed directly to rolling to wound?

If the later is the case do you deploy from reserve at the start of the turn or do you get to wait until a different phase? If your answer is different to above. Why?

You are told to do all your reserve rolls first, and then move on your reserve units. This explicitly breaks the sequence into steps.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When you're told to do something in the rules, do you do it then or later at some point when you feel like it?

Are you referring to arrival or deployment?

(You're question is a bit vague unless it's to OP ?)

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

You're told to do something when reserves arrive. Does this mean you do it later, at some inexact point, when you feel like it?
Or does it mean do X when Y?

Same paragraph, further down:

Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

This implies a separation between "rolling for reserves" and "moving reserves".

Does the paragraph use the word "immediately"? And if you think this is implicit, how do you Roll for the arrival of Unit A, and immediately deploy, if you are explicitly forced to roll for the arrival of Units B and C first?
If you have to wait until after you roll for B and C, why can the movement phase not also start upon the first set of movement?

Have you also got some RaW about how "Moving On From Reserve" is not part of the Movement phase? (The quoted "as described below" in your quote above refers to this paragraph. You must prove so for that paragraph, not the rule in a vacuum)

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When you're told to do something in the rules, do you do it then or later at some point when you feel like it?

Are you referring to arrival or deployment?

(You're question is a bit vague unless it's to OP ?)

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

You're told to do something when reserves arrive. Does this mean you do it later, at some inexact point, when you feel like it?
Or does it mean do X when Y?

Same paragraph, further down:

Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

This implies a separation between "rolling for reserves" and "moving reserves".

Does the paragraph use the word "immediately"? And if you think this is implicit, how do you Roll for the arrival of Unit A, and immediately deploy, if you are explicitly forced to roll for the arrival of Units B and C first?
If you have to wait until after you roll for B and C, why can the movement phase not also start upon the first set of movement?

Because you're not told it does. You're assuming that it does with no actual rules support.

A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

Reinforcement that they are moved on in the start of turn rather than movement phase - otherwise it's a needless rule.

Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

So Ongoing Reserves re-enter play before the movement phase, differently from normal Reserves (using your argument)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You are told to do all your reserve rolls first, and then move on your reserve units. This explicitly breaks the sequence into steps.

That does not mean the second step is in a later phase.

That's your (unsupported with actual rules) assumption.

"Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

Is this a needless rule?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
"Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

Is this a needless rule?

No. It's clarifying that Reserves are moved on prior to the Movement phase - because that's when "any other units can move".

 FlingitNow wrote:

A fair interpretation, but does require you to ignore the line in the deep strike rules , "in the movement phase during which it arrives"

You keep claiming this. That line has literally nothing to do with when reserves arrives. Saying reserves arrive at the start of the turn does not contradict that line. Saying reserves arrive during the movement phase does however contradict several rules that tell you when units arrive from reserve. Thus RaW can not be that they arrive in the movement phase. I know you desperately want your Blood Tithe Thruster to be a special flower so you can abuse poor wording by GW but it isn't and can't for many reasons. In this case reserves arrive at the start of the turn as the rules clearly state.

Show me the rule under changing flight modes that, without combining several rules together to create your own new rule that you claim exists, says you cannot change flight mode on the turn it arrives after deepstrike? It only says you cannot change flight modes while falling back, thats it, that is the only 1 line specification in the FMC section.

If they intended for the FMC to not change flight modes after deepstrike they would have stated that, without it there is no rule for it.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

A fair interpretation, but does require you to ignore the line in the deep strike rules , "in the movement phase during which it arrives"

You keep claiming this. That line has literally nothing to do with when reserves arrives. Saying reserves arrive at the start of the turn does not contradict that line. Saying reserves arrive during the movement phase does however contradict several rules that tell you when units arrive from reserve. Thus RaW can not be that they arrive in the movement phase. I know you desperately want your Blood Tithe Thruster to be a special flower so you can abuse poor wording by GW but it isn't and can't for many reasons. In this case reserves arrive at the start of the turn as the rules clearly state.

Show me the rule under changing flight modes that, without combining several rules together to create your own new rule that you claim exists, says you cannot change flight mode on the turn it arrives after deepstrike? It only says you cannot change flight modes while falling back, thats it, that is the only 1 line specification in the FMC section.

If they intended for the FMC to not change flight modes after deepstrike they would have stated that, without it there is no rule for it.

That's not how rules work. Do you believe you can move the turn you arrive by deep strike (and therefore must move at least 12" if you don't change flight mode)? We know that you must move in order that you can change flight mode by the flight mode rules (unless you have another rule telling you how to change flight mode).

Can we not discuss FMCs moving in the reserves thread.