Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 FlingitNow wrote:
That's not how rules work. Do you believe you can move the turn you arrive by deep strike (and therefore must move at least 12" if you don't change flight mode)? We know that you must move in order that you can change flight mode by the flight mode rules (unless you have another rule telling you how to change flight mode).

As per the FMC rules

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always
counts as being in Swooping mode."

So, as it arrives it is in swooping mode and therefor subject to such rules as interceptor.

Under Flight Modes
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until
the start of its next turn."

"Must declare weather it is swooping or gliding" word by word means that the models controller can declare swooping OR gliding, this happens at the start of its move right after it arrives.

Edit - deleted this part because it didn't make any sense


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer the question of when does a unit arrive from reserve?

At the start of your turn before any other units move. (thats what it says in Arriving from Reserve)

So per your quote we know 2 things:

1) You declare mode before moving
2) After doing this you are stuck in this mode until the start of your next turn

Therefore you must be able to move to change flight mode and we know you start swooping when you DS. Therefore as DS is moving declaring swoop mode before DSing as the rules force you to do keeps you in that mode until the start of your next turn. Further more you can no more redeclare than you can make a 12" move in the following movement phase (note the DS restriction on that action).

 FlingitNow wrote:
So per your quote we know 2 things:

1) You declare mode before moving
2) After doing this you are stuck in this mode until the start of your next turn

Therefore you must be able to move to change flight mode and we know you start swooping when you DS. Therefore as DS is moving declaring swoop mode before DSing as the rules force you to do keeps you in that mode until the start of your next turn. Further more you can no more redeclare than you can make a 12" move in the following movement phase (note the DS restriction on that action).

Ah but we both know you are combining and interpreting 2 rules from different sections, let me lay out the rules for you without any interpretation or combining and using quotes:

FMC Depoyment - "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

FMC Flight Modes - Changing Flight Mode - "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

arriving and counts

is different than

moving and declaring

So it arrives as swooping then you must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. (2 different rules)

Deep striking is moving and you count as (which is the same as are) swooping. Or do you believe that rule serves no function? That you start as swooping and then immediately declare your flight mode whilst still deepstriking, thus ignoring that you have to be swooping whilst deepstriking? Or are you moving after deep striking and changing your flight mode then breaking both the restriction on moving and the length of the initial declaration?

 chaosmarauder wrote:
So it arrives as swooping then you must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. (2 different rules)

Declaring can only be done before it moves.

rigeld2 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
So it arrives as swooping then you must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. (2 different rules)

Declaring can only be done before it moves.

Or another interpretation is:

It arrives, you declare that it is gliding until the start of your next turn (as per Changing Flight Mode)

For the purpose of any rules during the arrival, it "counts as having arrived in swooping mode"

If the rule says you roll for the reserves to come on at the start of the turn, then it's at the start of the turn. I can't think of any examples where you roll for something that doesn't immediately happen after the roll occurs. I'm struggling to find a reason anyone wouldn't grasp reserves arriving in a part of the turn before any phases go underway. Just seems like intentionally obfuscating completely understandable rules for the hell of it.

I also see people saying that Deep Strike is "moving." No it's not. It's deployment. The reason you can't move after a deep strike is because we're explicitly told so in the Deep Strike rules about how to treat that unit in the turn it arrives from reserves.

That's why you can't change flight modes for FMCs the turn it arrives from Deep Strike. It doesn't get to make a move during the movement phase as a result of what we're told in the Deep Strike rule, therefore it never gets to the "At the start of it's move" part of the changing flight modes rule until a subsequent turn.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
So it arrives as swooping then you must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. (2 different rules)

Declaring can only be done before it moves.

Or another interpretation is:

It arrives, you declare that it is gliding until the start of your next turn (as per Changing Flight Mode)

For the purpose of any rules during the arrival, it "counts as having arrived in swooping mode"

How can you interpret "before it's move" as anything but "before it's move"? You can't declare after it's moved, because the rule says before.
And since the Deep Strike is its move, you were forced to declare before it, not after.

Please don't make things up.

This thread has gotten off topic, like way off topic.

Per the RAW, we know only a handful of things.

Reserves are rolled for at the start of the turns 2 and 3.
Reserves arrive 'this turn' if the roll was successful on turns 2 & 3.
Reserves arrive at the start of turn 4.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units ..." infers that deep striking units will arrive during the movement phase.
Units in ongoing reserves always enter play at the start of the turn.

Ignoring the deep striking rule, the RAI seem to be that normal reserve units arrive at the start of the turn, as I explained in my earlier post.
The deep strike rule implies that deep striking units would instead arrive during the movement phase. This would apply only to deep strike units and has no baring on other reserve units. It would be possible for units arriving from normal reserves to arrive at the start of the turn, while units arriving from deep strike reserves would arrive during the movement phase. There is nothing to support this beyond the single line quoted above. Another problem with that is turn 4. On Turn 4 the units held in reserve will arrive at the start of the turn. This is the only time when a unit in reserves arrives that is not ambiguous. If the a deep striking unit was held in reserves and arrived at the start of turn 4 the timing of its arrival contradicts the inferred timing set up by the deep strike rule.

What does this mean? In my opinion the quoted line from the deep strike rule is a typo and that RAI is that all reserves, deep striking or otherwise, arrive at the start of the turn. Its my opinion that line should read "In the movement phase during the turn in which they arrive, Deep striking units...". The alternative is that there is a strange hodgepodge of when units arrive.

Decent interpretation.

I think I prefer BlackTalons interpretation, that 'arriving' in the context of the Section "Arriving from reserves" is all about determining which units are being made ready to move on from reserves that turn. This is consistent in that section. Then Moving On from Reserve, is its own section, which talks about movement on, which can be assumed to be the movemtn phase (but agreed not explicitly stated)

Then the deep strike section, uses the term 'arrive' in the movement phase, clearly erroneously, but it could say "movement phase in which it deploys" and be consistent.

 SRSFACE wrote:
If the rule says you roll for the reserves to come on at the start of the turn, then it's at the start of the turn. I can't think of any examples where you roll for something that doesn't immediately happen after the roll occurs. I'm struggling to find a reason anyone wouldn't grasp reserves arriving in a part of the turn before any phases go underway. Just seems like intentionally obfuscating completely understandable rules for the hell of it.

I also see people saying that Deep Strike is "moving." No it's not. It's deployment. The reason you can't move after a deep strike is because we're explicitly told so in the Deep Strike rules about how to treat that unit in the turn it arrives from reserves.

That's why you can't change flight modes for FMCs the turn it arrives from Deep Strike. It doesn't get to make a move during the movement phase as a result of what we're told in the Deep Strike rule, therefore it never gets to the "At the start of it's move" part of the changing flight modes rule until a subsequent turn.

People want reserves to arrive in the movement phase so they can claim blood tithe summoned FMCs are special flowers that get to move the turn the arrive.

Also deep striking is moving see the DS rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
If the rule says you roll for the reserves to come on at the start of the turn, then it's at the start of the turn. I can't think of any examples where you roll for something that doesn't immediately happen after the roll occurs. I'm struggling to find a reason anyone wouldn't grasp reserves arriving in a part of the turn before any phases go underway. Just seems like intentionally obfuscating completely understandable rules for the hell of it.

I also see people saying that Deep Strike is "moving." No it's not. It's deployment. The reason you can't move after a deep strike is because we're explicitly told so in the Deep Strike rules about how to treat that unit in the turn it arrives from reserves.

That's why you can't change flight modes for FMCs the turn it arrives from Deep Strike. It doesn't get to make a move during the movement phase as a result of what we're told in the Deep Strike rule, therefore it never gets to the "At the start of it's move" part of the changing flight modes rule until a subsequent turn.

People want reserves to arrive in the movement phase so they can claim blood tithe summoned FMCs are special flowers that get to move the turn the arrive.

Also deep striking is moving see the DS rules.

And some people want reserves to not arrive in the movement phase so they don't. Special flowers hah! Khorne would cringe on his throne!

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Decent interpretation.

I think I prefer BlackTalons interpretation, that 'arriving' in the context of the Section "Arriving from reserves" is all about determining which units are being made ready to move on from reserves that turn. This is consistent in that section. Then Moving On from Reserve, is its own section, which talks about movement on, which can be assumed to be the movemtn phase (but agreed not explicitly stated)

Then the deep strike section, uses the term 'arrive' in the movement phase, clearly erroneously, but it could say "movement phase in which it deploys" and be consistent.

Except that units deploy when they arrive, not at some later time.

Rule to back that up?

Edit:
Totally found it.

And the rules want reserves to not arrive in the movement phase so they don't. Special flowers hah! Khorne would cringe on his throne!

FTFY

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Rule to back that up?

Edit:
Totally found it.

I was going to say I've quoted it about a dozen times, but you apparently already found it.

As to deep striking being movement... The DS are not clear on this. There are two lines that indicate opposite viewpoints. First we are told that deep striking units cannot move any further then to disembark from a deep striking transport. This 'any further' implies they already moved. Just one paragraph later we are told "In that turn's shooting phase, these units...count as having moved in the previous movement phase." and that implies that they did not move, otherwise we would not need to be told to count them as something that did.

 FlingitNow wrote:

And the rules want reserves to not arrive in the movement phase so they don't. Special flowers hah! Khorne would cringe on his throne!

FTFY

You can say what you want, but you are the one derailing this thread by continuously bringing up your own agenda on the Blood tithe, which is not what this thread is about, move on. Or hash it out on the actual blood tithe thread.

Its simple really:

Reserves is at the start of the turn.

You deep strike (or not) and move reserves onto the table.

At the start of your move (not prior - it clearly says at the start) you declare your FMC is gliding until the start of its next turn.

Under FMC deployment it says it counts as being in swooping mode - this is for INTERCEPTOR so that if your FMC is gliding it is still 6 to hit!

Its not a nerf to be FMC deep striking, its actually a bonus so that interceptor is hard to hit it.

 DJGietzen wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Decent interpretation.

I think I prefer BlackTalons interpretation, that 'arriving' in the context of the Section "Arriving from reserves" is all about determining which units are being made ready to move on from reserves that turn. This is consistent in that section. Then Moving On from Reserve, is its own section, which talks about movement on, which can be assumed to be the movemtn phase (but agreed not explicitly stated)

Then the deep strike section, uses the term 'arrive' in the movement phase, clearly erroneously, but it could say "movement phase in which it deploys" and be consistent.

Except that units deploy when they arrive, not at some later time.

I think you're probably right here. But your interpretation does still involve assuming a typo in the rules.

Which brings me back to my original interpretation which doesn't involve assuming there are mistakes in the rule, just reading each line as they are intended to be read.

But I'm confident I can't persuade most of you guys about that. And I'm no longer going to try. It doesn't make a difference in game anyway. Play how you think it should be played

If there's one thing I've learned, its that you have to do all your reserves rolls before you do all you're moves, which I've seen done wrong so many times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Its simple really:

Reserves is at the start of the turn.

You deep strike (or not) and move reserves onto the table.

At the start of your move (not prior - it clearly says at the start) you declare your FMC is gliding until the start of its next turn.

Under FMC deployment it says it counts as being in swooping mode - this is for INTERCEPTOR so that if your FMC is gliding it is still 6 to hit!

Its not a nerf to be FMC deep striking, its actually a bonus so that interceptor is hard to hit it.

Sorry Marauder but I don't agree. (and you already know you're wrong about interceptor). But its a perfectly reasonable way to play until an FAQ comes out.

DJGietzen wrote:As to deep striking being movement... The DS are not clear on this. There are two lines that indicate opposite viewpoints. First we are told that deep striking units cannot move any further then to disembark from a deep striking transport. This 'any further' implies they already moved. Just one paragraph later we are told "In that turn's shooting phase, these units...count as having moved in the previous movement phase." and that implies that they did not move, otherwise we would not need to be told to count them as something that did.

It's worded that way because a unit can move, but individual models can stay stationary, especially for shooting purposes.

chaosmarauder wrote:Its simple really:

Reserves is at the start of the turn.

You deep strike (or not) and move reserves onto the table.

At the start of your move (not prior - it clearly says at the start) you declare your FMC is gliding until the start of its next turn.

Incorrect. At the start of the model's move, not your move. Which means at the start of the Deep Strike - since that is that model's move.
And what are you told about its movement mode?

Under FMC deployment it says it counts as being in swooping mode - this is for INTERCEPTOR so that if your FMC is gliding it is still 6 to hit!

You literally invented this. It has no basis in actual rules, at all.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Its simple really:

Reserves is at the start of the turn.

You deep strike (or not) and move reserves onto the table.

At the start of your move (not prior - it clearly says at the start) you declare your FMC is gliding until the start of its next turn.

Under FMC deployment it says it counts as being in swooping mode - this is for INTERCEPTOR so that if your FMC is gliding it is still 6 to hit!

Its not a nerf to be FMC deep striking, its actually a bonus so that interceptor is hard to hit it.

Sorry Marauder but I don't agree. (and you already know you're wrong about interceptor). But its a perfectly reasonable way to play until an FAQ comes out.

I have changed my mind about how interceptor/FMC works and it looks like the FMC deployment rule is there to protect a FMC when it deploys from deep strike reserves and chooses glide mode.
Otherwise, it would not need to use the phrase 'counts as'.
You don't need to say a FMC 'counts as' swooping, if it was swooping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I agree to disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

DJGietzen wrote:As to deep striking being movement... The DS are not clear on this. There are two lines that indicate opposite viewpoints. First we are told that deep striking units cannot move any further then to disembark from a deep striking transport. This 'any further' implies they already moved. Just one paragraph later we are told "In that turn's shooting phase, these units...count as having moved in the previous movement phase." and that implies that they did not move, otherwise we would not need to be told to count them as something that did.

It's worded that way because a unit can move, but individual models can stay stationary, especially for shooting purposes.

chaosmarauder wrote:Its simple really:

Reserves is at the start of the turn.

You deep strike (or not) and move reserves onto the table.

At the start of your move (not prior - it clearly says at the start) you declare your FMC is gliding until the start of its next turn.

Incorrect. At the start of the model's move, not your move. Which means at the start of the Deep Strike - since that is that model's move.
And what are you told about its movement mode?

Under FMC deployment it says it counts as being in swooping mode - this is for INTERCEPTOR so that if your FMC is gliding it is still 6 to hit!

You literally invented this. It has no basis in actual rules, at all.

Ok no basis in actual rules at all is a bit of an exageration.

Interceptor can shoot at deep striking units in the movement phase.

If you arrive by deep strike in swooping mode, it would be 6 to hit.

If you arrived in gliding mode it would be whatever your ballistic skill is to hit.

However, the FMC deployment rule says if you arrived from deep strike reserves you count as being in swooping mode.

So therefor, if you deep striked in and had chosen gliding mode, it would still be 6 to hit because the FMC still counts as being in swooping mode.

It doesnt mention interceptor. It says counts as swooping, this is for ALL purposes, unless otherwise specified.
There are no other specifications

This means it also counts as swooping for the purposes of moving, and changing flight modes next turn.

rigeld2 wrote:

DJGietzen wrote:As to deep striking being movement... The DS are not clear on this. There are two lines that indicate opposite viewpoints. First we are told that deep striking units cannot move any further then to disembark from a deep striking transport. This 'any further' implies they already moved. Just one paragraph later we are told "In that turn's shooting phase, these units...count as having moved in the previous movement phase." and that implies that they did not move, otherwise we would not need to be told to count them as something that did.

It's worded that way because a unit can move, but individual models can stay stationary, especially for shooting purposes.

I fail to see how that addresses the incongruity of the two statements I mentioned. Multiple models or no, the 1st statement implies all models in the unit have already moved. This I believe is the justification for the belief that deep striking is movement. If deep striking is movement then, in the shooting phase, all the models that arrived via deep strike would have actually moved and not need to be counted as having moved.

If deep striking is not movement, the phrase 'any further' is erroneous. If it is movement, then the instruction to count them as having moved is erroneous.

DJGietzen, it's (not) movement in as much a vehicle pivoting is (not) movement. In other words it's movement, except when it isn't.

 DJGietzen wrote:
As to deep striking being movement... The DS are not clear on this. There are two lines that indicate opposite viewpoints. First we are told that deep striking units cannot move any further then to disembark from a deep striking transport. This 'any further' implies they already moved. Just one paragraph later we are told "In that turn's shooting phase, these units...count as having moved in the previous movement phase." and that implies that they did not move, otherwise we would not need to be told to count them as something that did.

"Any further" doesn't necessarily denote they would have "moved," simply that they cannot move. Rules also reflect the fluff of what it's supposed to represent, and a unit that is deep striking from a fluff standpoint most certainly moved to get there.

I'm reading through the Deep Strike rules again and again and I don't see anything that says it's "movement" as defined by the phase. Doesn't really matter if it is a movement or not, as that wouldn't have any bearing on all the rules we're told about how to utilize it.

Also, I'm reading the rules for arriving from Reserves simply because it's the core thing that needs to be sussed out for the right answer. It says guys move onto the table, then you get to move your other units like normal. I guess I can see people saying that means it's part of the movement phase as a result of that.

Either way, though, someone trying to claim FMCs can change flight modes after arriving from Deep Strike is just demonstrably false. Either arriving from reserves in general counts as movement, and therefore you would not have a point in which you could claim you're changing flight modes, or you aren't allowed to make a movement with the unit as per the rules of Deep Strike, and have the same result. That's something I think we can all agree on, yes?

I would say arriving from reserves is movement (in the movement phase , although it rarely matters)

This is further reinforced by the restriction in the deep strike rules, that having moved by deep strike you cannot move further . This would also catch other movement phase deep strike shenanigans such as veil of darkness.

 SRSFACE wrote:
"Any further" doesn't necessarily denote they would have "moved," simply that they cannot move. Rules also reflect the fluff of what it's supposed to represent, and a unit that is deep striking from a fluff standpoint most certainly moved to get there.

I know of no other way to read 'any further' then to limit something that has already begun. Perhaps your right and its just a poor choice of words influenced by the fluff, perhaps not. Its not clear.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I would say arriving from reserves is movement (in the movement phase , although it rarely matters).

And what about reserves that arrive on turn 4? Or units returning from ongoing resevers. There is zero doubt as to when these units arrive and its not in the movement phase.

I've given my interpretation in the first post. I would say there is non-zero doubt

Ah, I see. Your reading of the 4th turn clause is flawed. The roll is'nt automatically passed on turn 4 because there is no role on turn 4. The units automatically arrive at the start of turn 4 because you rolled a 3 or less on turn 3.