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Lets talk about extra credits. It's a youtube channel that talks about games. Making games, playing games, what games mean. It has so much continent on different aspect of games that you really should get extra credit for watching it. Really neat channel. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg

I wanted to do a thread about their latest video, but I figured I would want to talk about some of their other videos along the way, but first humane design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GArkyxP8-n0. Thew topic is actually summed up in the channels tag line. Games matter, they have a impact of their players and as uncle Ben would say with power comes responsibility. You want games to make your life better, not worse. (You can watch the video for a better explanation)

What is your take on this? Do games have power? Do they have a responsibility? Do they live up to that responsibility?

nomotog wrote:
I wanted to do a thread about their latest video, but I figured I would want to talk about some of their other videos along the way, but first humane design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GArkyxP8-n0. Thew topic is actually summed up in the channels tag line. Games matter, they have a impact of their players and as uncle Ben would say with power comes responsibility. You want games to make your life better, not worse. (You can watch the video for a better explanation)

What is your take on this? Do games have power? Do they have a responsibility? Do they live up to that responsibility?

I think they do, even if not necessarily a huge one. But GamerGate-oriented people will shred you to ribbons for suggesting so .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I wanted to do a thread about their latest video, but I figured I would want to talk about some of their other videos along the way, but first humane design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GArkyxP8-n0. Thew topic is actually summed up in the channels tag line. Games matter, they have a impact of their players and as uncle Ben would say with power comes responsibility. You want games to make your life better, not worse. (You can watch the video for a better explanation)

What is your take on this? Do games have power? Do they have a responsibility? Do they live up to that responsibility?

I think they do, even if not necessarily a huge one. But GamerGate-oriented people will shred you to ribbons for suggesting so .

Not true, I agree entirely with you, they clearly affect you in some way, its just not as big as most people seem to think.

But I am on the side of the GamerGate people. I'm not as vocal as most because I don't care that much, but I doubt most people would try and argue that games don't affect you at all, that isn't even what GG is about is it?

In my understanding, GG is about sexism. Or rather, the claim that sexism is rife in the games industry, and it blatantly isn't. What it is full of is people that love to play the victim, which basically society as a whole is absolutely packed full of. Look at all the whiplash claims, the "I spilled coffee down my front and its your fault" claims and all of the other tens of millions of fake "give me money because... " claims. So I'm certainly not sexist or holding it against anyone, you cant just lay the blame on a few businesswomen who pretend to be victims to make money.

To answer the question again, yes they have some responsibility, but its not a matter for legislation considering all of the studies suggest the impact is tiny.

If people want to make "High School Shooting - The Game" I think they should be allowed, I just wont be buying it, and I think 90% of people would say the same.

.....I used to follow them, when they where on youtube, the escapist and after.
then they got preachy, like stupid preachy. Like games matter more than they really do.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
.....I used to follow them, when they where on youtube, the escapist and after.
then they got preachy, like stupid preachy. Like games matter more than they really do.

Ya this video is full preach, so you know make of that what you will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I wanted to do a thread about their latest video, but I figured I would want to talk about some of their other videos along the way, but first humane design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GArkyxP8-n0. Thew topic is actually summed up in the channels tag line. Games matter, they have a impact of their players and as uncle Ben would say with power comes responsibility. You want games to make your life better, not worse. (You can watch the video for a better explanation)

What is your take on this? Do games have power? Do they have a responsibility? Do they live up to that responsibility?

I think they do, even if not necessarily a huge one. But GamerGate-oriented people will shred you to ribbons for suggesting so .

Not true, I agree entirely with you, they clearly affect you in some way, its just not as big as most people seem to think.

But I am on the side of the GamerGate people. I'm not as vocal as most because I don't care that much, but I doubt most people would try and argue that games don't affect you at all, that isn't even what GG is about is it?

In my understanding, GG is about sexism. Or rather, the claim that sexism is rife in the games industry, and it blatantly isn't. What it is full of is people that love to play the victim, which basically society as a whole is absolutely packed full of. Look at all the whiplash claims, the "I spilled coffee down my front and its your fault" claims and all of the other tens of millions of fake "give me money because... " claims. So I'm certainly not sexist or holding it against anyone, you cant just lay the blame on a few businesswomen who pretend to be victims to make money.

To answer the question again, yes they have some responsibility, but its not a matter for legislation considering all of the studies suggest the impact is tiny.

If people want to make "High School Shooting - The Game" I think they should be allowed, I just wont be buying it, and I think 90% of people would say the same.

The video focus mostly on skinner box games and only lightly touches on the idea of games with questionable messages. Like it dose try really hard not to mention it. (No mention of sexism in the video.) Skinner boxes are kind of evil. Like when people sink unreasonable sums of money into a freamum game that isn't worth any of it, or when people neglect important things to play WoW. It's not a good thing when that happens, but is it the developers responsibility? What role, if any do they play?

(I'm not too worried about being ripped apart. I mean It happens some times when you take a stance, or state an option.)

I've always loved them. I generally agree with what they say, and even if I don't, it still gets me thinking. If you are at all interested in games, they're a good watch.

I watched them when they were on PATV, tried some of their youtube stuff and wasn't a fan any longer.

Still subscribed to them, but hardly watch anymore. The preachiness has been getting on my nerves, Im afraid.

Same here, used to watch them when they were on PATV and the Escapist, but they were banging on the desk a bit too much and I just quit watching them.

 mattyrm wrote:
that isn't even what GG is about is it?

GG is about anything and everything and nothing.

 mattyrm wrote:
Or rather, the claim that sexism is rife in the games industry, and it blatantly isn't.

How did you came to the conclusion it blatantly is not? Is it magically immune contrarily to the rest of society, or do you believe society has eradicated sexism?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How did you came to the conclusion it blatantly is not? Is it magically immune contrarily to the rest of society, or do you believe society has eradicated sexism?

Ok then, it blatantly isn't any more sexist than life in general.

And I'm a realist and a pragmatist with a generally happy outlook on life, so while Im well aware we haven't eradicated things like sexism and racism we are doing pretty awesome. Give it 50 more years, we will probably look back at some of the gak that goes on and say "I cant believe we did that" but considering where we used to be, only a few decades ago, I think society is ticking along nicely, and I think that its ridiculous to suggest that the gaming industry has anything massively wrong with it.

I also KNOW (because I can read and hear and see) that the likes of Anita Sarkeesian are proven liars that will say anything and make anything as long as there is money to be made. I don't believe even she agrees with half of the gak she says, and you are never going to convince any even remotely impartial observer or either gender that the world is going to burn because Mario rescues a Princess occasionally.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think they do, even if not necessarily a huge one. But GamerGate-oriented people will shred you to ribbons for suggesting so .

Have you considered that you're obsessed with GamerGate, Hybrid? This thread should have nothing to do with GamerGate yet you mentioned it in the first response. Take a break maybe?

On topic, I don't agree that games should aim to bring joy to the player and make their life better, that limits games from telling stories like Silent Hill 2. That game made me feel terrible, but it was a powerful experience I don't regret.

I quite liked their video on Sexual Diversity though, which has nothing to do with Kanji being my favourite character in Persona 4

Sorry, but I immediately closed the video when he said it was about "humane game design". I mean, come on.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sorry, but I immediately closed the video when he said it was about "humane game design". I mean, come on.

"No animals were harmed during the shooting off this fictional digital chicken"

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sorry, but I immediately closed the video when he said it was about "humane game design". I mean, come on.

Why...?

You can't go right with that term. "Humane" in an economical sense refers to working conditions and the worker's situation in general. Are there game developers forcefully infused with chemical gases, being forced to work for more than 10 hours per day in the dark at the lowest possible wage?

I just guess that he's going to ramble about the usual "Bohoo, games have offensive content so people should feel bad if buying those" leftist bullcrap and I have heard enough of that special piece of mindless rambling fosho.

Actually, nothing like that. It's about stuff like skinner box games an alike. You should watch it before jumping to conclusions.

There videos are mostly about game design, not content.

 mattyrm wrote:
In my understanding, GG is about sexism. Or rather, the claim that sexism is rife in the games industry, and it blatantly isn't.

You're still immune to reality then?

Can we start a new thread if we want to talk about GG, I'd really like EC to get some more viewership, and people tend to avoid anything GG related like the plague.

I guess I'll say I rather liked that episode. Not sure it's controversial though?

It's not for players. Nobody likes games that purposely extend playtime, or keep you playing just to make more money. Many game companies love them however, as it makes them lots of money.

Used to watch them regularly. But stopped when they started slandering people like Total Biscuit. I just can't support people who behave like that. The only part of their output I'm interested in now is their Extra History series, but even that, I haven't watched for a few months now.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's not for players. Nobody likes games that purposely extend playtime, or keep you playing just to make more money. Many game companies love them however, as it makes them lots of money.

One of the more crazy aspects about gamers is that no matter how predatory a element is, you will find people to defend it as good. Like if you tried to argue about loot drops shouldn't be so low in mmos you would get ripped to shreds by the fans who defend these time wasting mechanics.

 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
In my understanding, GG is about sexism. Or rather, the claim that sexism is rife in the games industry, and it blatantly isn't.

You're still immune to reality then?

Sorry, by blatantly isn't I simply mean no more than any other industry. Obviously racism, sexism, and a gak load of other-isms still exist because we are just a bunch of chimps, but it isn't "rife" its just there.

You cant say it is "rife" in the gaming industry, otherwise you are saying it is "rife" in life in general, and as I said earlier, I think we are doing pretty good. gak, we cheapen the term if we call the west "rife" with sexism.

If you want to see what rife looks like, check out Saudi Arabia.

 mattyrm wrote:
And I'm a realist and a pragmatist with a generally happy outlook on life, so while Im well aware we haven't eradicated things like sexism and racism we are doing pretty awesome. Give it 50 more years, we will probably look back at some of the gak that goes on and say "I cant believe we did that" but considering where we used to be, only a few decades ago, I think society is ticking along nicely

Yeah, but that will not happen out of the blue. That will happen because some people will make it happen.

 mattyrm wrote:
I also KNOW (because I can read and hear and see) that the likes of Anita Sarkeesian are proven liars that will say anything and make anything as long as there is money to be made. I don't believe even she agrees with half of the gak she says, and you are never going to convince any even remotely impartial observer or either gender that the world is going to burn because Mario rescues a Princess occasionally.

The think is I do not need to trust her on anything, because every fact she quotes is common knowledge for basically anyone who plays video games. So, I just have to listen to her reasoning, and see how much I agree with them. I mostly do, though I think her points about NPC were a bit weak.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, nothing like that. It's about stuff like skinner box games an alike. You should watch it before jumping to conclusions.

There videos are mostly about game design, not content.

I'm taking your word for it. Else I'm charging you for those 6 minutes #

/e: Watched the video, and its quality is terrible. First of all, he just claims that games are art. No explanation whatsoever, just claims it. Claim without backup? Stillborn claim. He goes on to talk about primary motivations for games with...zero facts. Nothing to back it up. He just throws it in the room. DotA 2 does not have a rewarding system that keeps players going? Ask any DotA player how much they care for their MMR. Any evaluation on what actually motivates DotA 2 players? Nope. Stillborn claim #2. MOBAs don't punish you for having more important things to do? They don't punish you for e.g. suddenly having visit over? Stillborn point #3. Could go on, but all in all, the video has one fundamental problem: it puts the entire blame on the game and not the players. It's the same problem with almost everyone crying about how bad some games are and I am sick and tired of it. The video creator still is trapped in his world of love feeding people and not money.

Players are responsible for where the gaming industry is going. It's 100% the players. Hate on Call of Duty as much as you want, if millions of people buy it, then somehow, those millions seem to like the game. If people wouldn't buy the game, the game would not be produced.

...and let's not start about the constant misuse of the term "humane".

I never liked the argument that it's OK because they make money. Just because farmvil made millions by training and abusing their player, that didn't justify that abuse. It kind of just makes things worse because it rewards bad behavior.

A game cannot "abuse" anyone. People playing WoW for 18 hours per day /choose/ to do so.

 Sigvatr wrote:
A game cannot "abuse" anyone. People playing WoW for 18 hours per day /choose/ to do so.

Some people just have addictive personalities, people can grow addicted to gambling, food, exercise, or various things.

If someone is addicted to Carrots and eating twenty pounds per day people aren't suddenly going to demonize the carrot industry.

Precisely. People who get "addicted" to games (and that's not possible, just to make sure that's through) do it because of other problems. Those are to blame and get tackled, not video games.