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Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Article:
http://www.thestranger.com/features/feature/2015/04/15/22062331/i-sat-in-on-my-sons-sex-ed-class-and-i-was-shocked-by-what-i-heard
Spoiler:
I Sat In on My Son’s Sex-Ed Class, and I Was Shocked by What I Heard
My Son Responded by Standing Up to the Teacher’s Arguments with Science

Until yesterday, I only ever found out what happened in my son’s sex-ed classes by asking him about it. That was painful enough. In elementary school, he apparently learned that HIV is hereditary because you get it from your mother. In middle school, he had to help the teacher explain something about sex anatomy when the teacher was stumped and my son happened to know the facts. (I am a sex researcher and I work on intersex; he knows a lot about sex anatomy.)

Now he’s a freshman in high school, and his sex ed is being taught in a health class by a gym teacher in conjunction with some “special helpers.” Two evenings ago, as we were driving back from the vet with a pet rat suffering from a bad foot, my son broke it to me: They are teaching sexual abstinence in the class. It’s not abstinence only, but it may as well be.

I told my son why I think teaching teenagers abstinence is stupid, channeling all I’ve come to understand thanks to years of listening to the Savage Lovecast: (1) Sex is pleasurable, and there’s no good reason you should deny it to yourself if you have a consenting partner and you’re on the same page. (2) Marrying someone who you haven’t had sex with is a potential disaster. How do you know if you’re sexually compatible? (3) Whomever you love enough to marry deserves to have you well-practiced at sex before you marry.

My son nodded at all this. He then remarked to me that in class, he had turned to his classmate and said, “I can see I’m going to be spending some time with Google Scholar tonight.” Having heard previously from me about the ineffectiveness of abstinence education, he wanted to gather some data about it that he could present to the teachers. (What can I say? We’re a household of data geeks.)

So he and I sat down over dinner and did some looking together. We didn’t spend a ton of time on it because I had to run to a local government meeting after dinner, but we found a page that seemed to sum up nicely a lot of the potential problems with abstinence education and virginity pledges. I offered to come to class to see what they were teaching if he wanted me to—but only if he wanted me to.

While I was off at my meeting, he decided to use my home office to print off copies of that webpage. When I got home, he told me he was thinking of giving one to his teacher, one to the guest teacher, and one to the principal.


In the morning, I asked him whether he wanted me to come to class. He said he did. I told him I was just going to sit quietly and observe, although I brought my computer so I could take notes. The regular class teacher was very nice, as my son had described him. That teacher gave me a seat in the back corner where I could watch without being in the way.

The visiting sex-ed presenter—let’s call her Ms. Thomas—started class by asking if there were any questions from last time. My son’s hand shot up. He asked her if her teaching of sexual practices was evidence-based.

Looking startled, she said yes.

“Then why are you teaching abstinence when it doesn’t decrease the amount of premarital sex and increases dangerous practices, including sex without contraception?” he said. He gave his teacher a copy of what he had brought.

“That’s not true,” she said. “You can look up anything on the internet.” She referred him instead to the National Abstinence Education Association’s website. (When I got home, I discovered it is a 501(c)(4) organization—a lobbying group that does things like trying to stop “anti-abstinence justices” from getting federal judgeships.)

The class started to murmur at my son’s attempt to challenge this visiting educator. To be honest, it didn’t strike me at first as particularly dramatic. He’s been raised to believe authority rests in good studies, not in individual humans, and he’s been challenging us since he was 2 years old. (“The earth does NOT move! The sun goes UP and DOWN!”) We’ve never said to him, “Don’t challenge me, boy!” We’ve always said, “What’s your evidence? I’ll show you mine.”

But Ms. Thomas didn’t want to discuss evidence. She wanted to move on, and move on she did. The kids were told they were going to continue to talk about “stories of abstinence” and “non-abstinence stories that led to consequences.”

And so we were presented with a visiting guy I’m going to call Jerry. Jerry told us a genuinely sad story of how he was raised by an alcoholic father and how Jerry got into alcohol and drugs at a young age. He hooked up with a girl “whose mother had put her on birth control.” But it failed, and she got pregnant. Jerry said that he and his girl didn’t tell their parents as the pregnancy progressed.

Hold on a second: Her mother gave her birth control but would be shocked that she had sex? Clearly Jerry’s lesson here—the reason he needed to drop that the girl had been on birth control but that when she got pregnant, they didn’t tell her mother—was supposed to be this: Birth control fails. It fails all the time. And sex is so shameful that if you get pregnant, you can’t get prenatal care. You have to hide the pregnancy. In shame.

Jerry told us that once the girl “showed” and everyone found out, other kids mocked her and friends deserted her. If I followed this disaster story correctly, Jerry later went on to knock up another girl. Same basic story of another child they weren’t ready for. Failure to finish school, failure to be employed, more drugs, more sex. One of his friends overdosed and was “a vegetable,” according to Jerry, for 11 years.

The upshot? Sex is just one disastrous component of “a bad lifestyle.”

But then—then!—Jerry met a beautiful girl he liked so much. And she had been raised in “the abstinence lifestyle.” He decided to put it back in his pants and woo her. He told us he “put her on a pedestal.” After two long, chaste years, he married her. And then he fethed her. And they now have two kids.

The lesson Jerry wanted to impart? This: “You’ll find a good girl. If you find one who says ‘no,’ that’s the one you want.”

He actually said that. If a girl says no, “that’s the one you want.”

Silly me! I have been teaching my son that if a girl says no, you exit politely and get the hell out of her space.

Now Ms. Thomas was up. She wanted to talk about birth control. I thought this was promising—it suggested a recognition that you can have sex without wanting a baby. But her message was also one of sexual doom: “It is absolutely better to use something rather than nothing if you have sex,” she said. “But condoms fail.”

Condoms fail 18 percent of the time, according to this woman. She said stats on that vary, but she went with that big number anyway. She told the story of a couple of teens who came across a box of condoms in which every condom had a pinhole leak. They knew this because they filled them all with water first. (They must have been super turned on!) According to Ms. Thomas, the FDA allows condom manufacturers to have a failure rate of 1 box in 400. You, son—you might be the buyer of box 400.

(Condoms do have a high failure rate—18 percent—when used improperly, according to the CDC, which is why a sex education class should cover how to use a condom correctly! Correct usage of condoms brings failure rate down to 2 percent, a lower failure rate than most hormonal birth control methods.)

At this point, it became clear to me that while this was not technically abstinence-only sex education, it was terror-based sex education. By now, we had learned that sex is associated with drug abuse, drug overdose, disease, unwanted pregnancy—pretty much every horror you can name except shingles and Lawrence Welk.

And that good girls say “no,” and you don’t want you no slut who says “yes.”

Ms. Thomas’s dire warnings continued: “It takes only one sperm to fertilize an egg. It takes only one act of sex to get pregnant.”

I wanted to raise my hand and blurt out, “Not if it’s anal or oral!”

She moved on to a “game.” The game involved everyone getting a number from one to six. She rolled the dice. If your number came up, your condom failed. But your condom didn’t just fail. A pregnancy resulted. And from the pregnancy came a baby. When your number came up, you raised your hand and Ms. Thomas handed you a paper baby.

It took all my willpower not to go up to the regular teacher at this point and ask if there weren’t some scissors in his desk we could use to hand around for paper abortions to prevent all these unwanted paper babies. But I didn’t. Within a few minutes, the entire class was preggers. Even the boys.

The bell rang. The kids hastened to clear the room to get to their next class. I went up to try to calmly talk to these people. I failed. I started screaming and swearing. I feel bad about that. I’m glad my son takes after his father and doesn’t start yelling and swearing in such situations.

But what I’d just seen was worse than anything I’d expected in a progressive school district in a liberal college town. I mean, here’s what these visiting “educators” were telling those kids: Condoms fail. They fail so often, they are pointless. There is no birth control except condoms. So if you have sex, you will end up with a pregnancy, and there is no abortion—you have to have that baby. And you will be shamed.

And what about that bit about wanting a “good girl” who says “no”? What year is this?


I remember when a friend of mine whose daughter is gay and was also going to my son’s school tried to nudge me to pay attention to sex ed, but I had told her I was too busy. Another friend had told me about a “Gender Equity” club forming at the high school, a group of students trying to agitate for positive change in sexuality and gender issues. I had reacted again with “I’m too busy.” Honestly, I’m sure that after my son’s no-means-yes sex-ed class ended, I was yelling and swearing at the visiting teachers partly out of sheer guilt.

Once home, I worried about how my kid was doing after challenging Ms. Thomas and being rebuffed. But I shouldn’t have been worried; he came home five hours later with a smile.

“The news got to the locker commons before I even got there,” he said.

What news? The news that he had challenged the teachers with information. I had missed that he hadn’t just said what he’d said—he’d also passed information around to all his classmates so they could read what he’d found out about abstinence education and virginity pledges and how they don’t really help.

At this point, I confessed to him that I had tweeted about the whole thing and it had gone national while he was at school. He cracked up. He especially enjoyed hearing about the math geeks on Twitter who were trying to calculate what the odds were that a classroom of 20 kids could all have condoms fail and get pregnant in a few dice rolls. It came to about one in three billion.

We went for ice cream and, on the way home, swung by the drugstore. I bought him a box of condoms.

“You know what my friends and I are going to do with those. We’re just going to use those to make water balloons and to cover stuff as a joke,” he said.

“Then we’ll get the nonlubricated kind,” I answered.

Back at home, he went on to the medical literature and found a meta-analysis of 13 studies on abstinence education in the BMJ. He went over it with his father, who is a physician. I gave him the information on the website Ms. Thomas had referred him to—showing him it is a political lobbying group. And I noticed for the first time that my son was wearing a shirt my brother gave him: “Stand back—I’m going to try science.”

His father warned him: “Tomorrow, you can’t expect the adults in the room to act rational. They have their emotions tied up with this, and whatever evidence you bring isn’t going to convince them. Just be prepared for that.”

Our son said he was prepared, and that convincing them wasn’t his goal. His goal was to teach the other kids some of the truth, and also to let them know it’s okay to challenge authority.

Me? I’m kicking myself now for not having gone to all those school-board meetings where they talked about the sex-ed curriculum. But I wonder if it would have mattered. Because whatever they write in the curriculum plan, what matters is where the rubber meets Ms. Thomas.

I am sure, when the school board approved this curriculum that included condom use, Jerry’s story was not run by them—especially not the slut-shaming bit about “good girls.” Nor, probably, were the other visitors earlier in the week run past the school board. (And just to be clear, some of them were good. My son tells me they had someone in to talk personally about abusive relationships, and that it was very useful and powerful.)

Liberal parents like me, the mistake we make is thinking of ourselves as the kind of people who don’t interfere in public schools. As a consequence, the only people who do interfere with sex-ed curricula are the conservatives. If people like me—people who want to see sex ed include teaching about masturbation, the pleasure urge, the existence of LGBT people—don’t show up and push our side, the “middle ground” turns out to be damned near the right.

We’re going to need more than my kid and his printouts to teach this generation right. recommended

Alice Dreger is author of the new book Galileo’s Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and the Search for Justice in Science (named one of the “best books of the month” in nonfiction by Amazon). The principal from her son’s high school has called to officially inform her she will now be subject to special monitoring at her son’s school, allegedly for saying “feth” in front of “children” after class ended.


And the tweets:
https://storify.com/metkat_meanie/livetweeting-abstinance-sex-ed

So, good to see that scare tactics which have had such a positive effect on drug use are still being employed in the classroom.

Oh, here's a link to the evidence the mother and son found, in case people are interested:
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/publications-a-z/409-the-truth-about-abstinence-only-programs

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/17 01:13:53


 
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Manchu wrote:


Gotta say, the mom here sounds like a serious donkey-cave.


How so?

I mean yeah, she shouldn't have lost her temper but apart from that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/17 01:56:38


 
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
Gotta say, the mom here sounds like a serious donkey-cave.
How so?

I mean yeah, she shouldn't have lost her temper but apart from that?
It's not surprising that she lost her temper considering she was looking for a fight. The proper thing to do in such a situation is not follow your kid into a class and make a scene. If your kids tell you they are getting taught something you consider ridiculous about sex ed, the adult thing to do would be clear that up with your kid at your home. With the example she sets, it's no wonder her kids walk into classes with statistics printed from the internet. That kids will probably grow up to be an donkey-cave, too. Like maybe a journalist that tracks down people in small town's to report on their "backward" attitudes.
 ph34r wrote:
A whole lot of the population must be donkey-caves if they don't want their children lied to about things that could seriously impact the course of their entire lives
The mom was only there because the kid already thought the material was stupid. This kid was in no danger of getting confused by the hamfisted messages from these "educators." Mom and kid were just spoiling to get on a high horse.


Her child asked her to come to the class to see what was being taught. As a parent she was well within her rights to go along and observe, as per the schools rules.

And the kid doesn't want his friends and classmates to be mislead by idiots with an agenda to push, so he brings in scientific evidence to show how these people are wrong. That makes him an donkey-cave? Sounds like a good, smart kid who's been taught that evidence is needed to support a point of view and who doesn't want his friends to end up pregnant or infected with STI's to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/17 14:14:19


 
Made in gb
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Bristol

 Frazzled wrote:

And the kid doesn't want his friends and classmates to be mislead by idiots with an agenda to push, so he brings in scientific evidence to show how these people are wrong. That makes him an donkey-cave?


Yes, yes it does. Like his mother he's trying to pick a fight with a teacher. News flash, no one gives a . In fact, almost no one was probably awake in the class until he started being a butthead. If you disagree with something in class...too bad. Be quiet, regurgiate the nonsense, get an A. if not, get an F. But just shut up already. No one cares what you think dill weed.


So asking a teacher to back up their claims with evidence is picking a fight? Guess I shouldn't have corrected my GCSE science teacher on Newton's Laws, then...

As for people probably not being awake, now the kid is an donkey-cave for actually resulting in his peers engage with their education in this topic?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/17 14:59:57


 
Made in gb
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Bristol

 kronk wrote:
The article's narrative: My son took a proactive approach to taking his education in his own hands and stood up to the hierarchy "Footloose Style" for his good and the good of all his classmates. I'm so proud.

The actual story: Know-it-all, helicopter parent with a bone to pick disrupts a teacher while he's conducting the sex-ed program he's legally not allowed to alter for risk of losing his fething job.

Should the school teach abstinence only? feth no. That's dumb.

Is it the teacher's fault? feth no. That's the politicians getting involved in the fething schools.

Do I have any respect for this lady? feth no. She should pick on the school board, the state legislature, or even the principal. But leave the fething teacher alone. What-A-Bitch, indeed.


1) She did not disrupt the class, she only spoke to the teacher after the class had finished.
2) Her child took it upon himself to research the topic beforehand, any competent teacher worth their pay would not just wave away a child actually engaging in the subject at hand, even if that child had a viewpoint which was contrary to their own. An incompetent teacher has no place in the classroom.
3) It was not a normal teacher but two guest speakers, brought in to basically tell a load of anecdotes with no scientific basis or evidence to any of it.

For example, their claim that the FDA allows 1 out of every 400 boxes of condoms to be completely defective, which is a 0.25% chance of getting a pack of completely defective condoms. This is completely false.

The FDA requires at least 996 out of every 1000 condoms on average to pass a water leak test. So there's a 0.4% chance of a single condom being defective. Now, lets assume now that the person is buying a small pack of condoms (lets say 3). There is a 6.4*10^-6 percent chance of all three of those condoms being defective. For a box of 10, there's a 1.05*10^-22 percent chance of all of those condoms being defective. As an example of how small that chance is, the current estimates for the number of stars in the observable universe is around the 10^22 mark, so you have a 1/(all the stars in the observable universe) percent chance of getting a box of 10 condoms which are all defective.

The "teachers" statement is completely wrong and deserves to be challenged. If your abstinence education has to be based on lies then it should not be taught. Period.

Then there's telling children that if they get pregnant they'll have to hide it from their parents, all their friends will leave them etc.

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2015/04/17 16:04:48


 
Made in gb
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Bristol

 cincydooley wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The FDA requires at least 996 out of every 1000 condoms on average to pass a water leak test. So there's a 0.4% chance of a single condom being defective. Now, lets assume now that the person is buying a small pack of condoms (lets say 3). There is a 6.4*10^-6 percent chance of all three of those condoms being defective. For a box of 10, there's a 1.05*10^-22 percent chance of all of those condoms being defective. As an example of how small that chance is, the current estimates for the number of stars in the observable universe is around the 10^22 mark, so you have a 1/(all the stars in the observable universe) percent chance of getting a box of 10 condoms which are all defective.


So what you're saying is that statistics and numbers can be manipulated to fit a narrative?!?! You're kidding me!

When it comes to Abstinence, I'll paraphrase the great Wayne Gretzky.

"You don't make babies 100% of the times you abstain from sex."

Regardless, it isn't hard to not have a kid. And if having an 8lb tiny screaming monster that you're responsible for isn't enough of a deterrent, will anything be?

Well in this case they're not manipulated. They're just plain false

And all comprehensive sex-ed courses include that not having sex is the only 100% effective way of not having a baby (unless you're having anal or oral sex). Nobody is arguing with that.
But when you use a condom properly there is a 2% chance of failure, when you take the pill properly there is a 1% (or less) chance of failure. Combine these two methods and there's a 1 in 5000 chance of a pregnancy.

People know how to not have sex, that doesn't need to be taught, most children have quite a lot of experience at it. People need to be taught how to properly use contraception, about consent, about relationships and domestic abuse and so on. This is stuff that children don't know and which will protect their health when they do decide to have sex and enter relationships.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/17 16:36:20


 
Made in gb
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Bristol

 Peregrine wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
This kind of bully culture is really becoming the dominant mode.


Since when is opposing blatant lying and scare tactics "bully culture"?


Indeed, if anything the speakers attempts to belittle the kid ("You can look anything up on the internet") and the scare stories with absolutely no evidence are real bully tactics, designed to make sure that the kids just shut up and do what they're told or else
Made in gb
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Bristol

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I agree with Manchu on this issue.

The important part of good quality sexuality education is the teaching of relationship values not just contraceptive methods, as is done in The Netherlands which has a very good success rate of later first intercourse and lower rate of teenage pregnancies than countries that tend to rely on pure abstinence education or mechanical risk education, or no education.


Right, but when you have the people who are lying about how effective contraception is and only mentioning one form (condoms) whilst basically ignoring:
1) either type of the pill (admittedly they mentioned the pill in one of their scare stories but completely failed to mention that, when taken correctly, it has less than 1% rate of failure)
2) the injection
3) the implant
4) IUDs

or in other words, every type of contraception that is available to women, whilst at the same time completely fething up the whole idea of how a healthy relationship will go (if she says no then she's the one you want and you should put her on a pedestal) then that is in no way conducive to any kind of effective education program on the mechanics or the values aspect.

The whole sex-ed course would be better without this lesson ever having taken place as no information of any worth to the children came out of it.

Also, on the subject of consent, apparently the only lesson the kids had on it was a policeman coming into the class to tell them not to rape.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
I find it totally improbable that the guest speakers in question went to the classroom with the intent to lie to kids. "Today I am going to lie to some kids on behalf of my GOP masters." That just doesn't make sense, except as a piece of culture war rhetoric. What probably happened, as far as the numbers sideshow goes, is these people saw some data somewhere that they believed because it shored up their preexisting values. That is how most people deal with statistics, even people with lots of education. Far from being liars, it is probable that these guest speakers are motivated by the notion that they tell kids the truth about sex. I mean, the only reason to assume bad faith on their part is because you already think they are bad people ... probably because you think they have bad values.


So, they lied. If you're going to go and teach some kids about a topic which can potentially have a huge impact on their lives then you should probably make sure your information is accurate, rather than just supporting your preconceived ideas.
They failed to mention that sex is pleasurable, that combining forms of contraception is the safest way to have sex, that proper use of condoms brings the failure rate down to 2%, not 18%, that it is okay to have sex if you and your partner choose to, that there are support programs for pregnant women so they don't need to be ashamed to tell people if they are pregnant etc.

They offered no constructive information about sex, at all.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/18 14:15:12


 
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Bristol

 Scrabb wrote:
@Peregrine. I think I found a misunderstanding in your battle with Manchu.

 Peregrine wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
Culture warriors always present ideological battles as their FACTS versus their opponents' OPINIONS.


And now we're right back to you denying that the school was blatantly lying. Failure rates for birth control are not an opinion, and the school lied about them. No amount of "SJW CULTURE WAR BULLYING" complaining is going to change this.


Manchu was accusing the mother of making those claims, not making said claim against the mother.

Again, Manchu never said the mother didn't have any facts to bring to the table.




Except he repeatedly said that this was an ideological argument, rather than factual. It is only ideological on the side of the abstinence teacher, the mother and son both have arguments based on facts.

If one side is arguing with facts and the other is not, that does not make the factual argument an ideological one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The point about Manchu's argument is that the mother basically did a grandstand play aimed at her own audience. She wasn't primarily interested in finding out about the curriculum or getting it changed, she wanted just to pander to various pre-conceptions.

I agree that the abstinence programme is basically useless, and the version presented was tantamount in various areas to blatant lies. However to oppose it any way you like does not necessarily put you on the side of the angels.

If you truly care about children's health and life skills, you need to tackle the issue in a non-confrontational way as you will never achieve buy-in from opponents by slagging them off as idiots and fanatics.


These opponents will never buy-in anyway. When actually presented with evidence which disagreed with her preconceived conclusions what did the speaker do? Dismiss it out of hand without even looking at it.

By confronting the issue in a public way you can show this and put the actual facts out there at the same time.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/18 17:48:55


 
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Bristol

 Kilkrazy wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
... lots of quoted text...
These opponents will never buy-in anyway. When actually presented with evidence which disagreed with her preconceived conclusions what did the speaker do? Dismiss it out of hand without even looking at it.

By confronting the issue in a public way you can show this and put the actual facts out there at the same time.


The teacher is not the person who needs to be engaged with. The professor needs to engage with the school governors and parents to change their minds about the best curriculum to achieve the desired outcome.

This is not going to be done by Tweeting smarmily about the stupid provincial sex ed class, however "public" the Twitter forum theoretically may be.


And yet doing so has got this issue a lot of attention. The problem goes way beyond the individual school. It goes to the government which is giving schools extra funding as long as they put these abstinence classes in the curriculum, rather than just giving that funding to a sex-ed curriculum that actually works.
Made in gb
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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
The premise of driving education is not that kids are already driving. But that is a premise of sex education.


No, it isn't. The premise (to continue your driving analogy) is that they will be driving in the future (which there is a good chance they will) and if you give them preliminary advice and, most importantly, accurate information (automatic vs manual gearbox, diesel vs petrol, the highway code etc.) you will make it much easier and safer for them when they actually come to driving that first time.

It is idiotic to say that sex education assumes that they are already sexually active and if that were the case then abstinence teaching would be even more of a waste of time and taxpayer money

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/04/18 21:23:28


 
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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It is idiotic to assume that sex education assumes that they are already sexually active
Why?


Because that is not how it is taught.

You don't need to think that someone is already sexually active to think that they might, in the future, want to know how to put a condom on or what types of contraception are available and how effective they are, or warning signs of an abusive relationship and what constitutes consent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:


My question goes to the legality: Minors are incapable of consent and therefore any intercourse they have is illicit. So has the lesson changed from "don't have sex until you are married" to "don't have sex until you are eighteen years old" or whatever the jurisdiction recognizes as the age of majority?


A lot of these children will have underage sex. Is it better that they know about contraception and how to stay safe when doing so or that they feel they must hide it and so expose themselves to more risk?

Also, these lessons will often also cover physical and emotional changes that they will undergo or are undergoing during puberty.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/18 21:29:47


 
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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
A lot of these children will have underage sex.
Well obviously. Hence my question when it comes to teaching about consent.


Because even if they do not have underage sex, it would probably be worth their while to be taught that someone who is very drunk is not in a fit state to give consent, or that if someone pressures you into having sex then that does not mean that you gave consent etc.

In response to your earlier question about age of consent laws, these classes will typically, in my experience, say that you should not have sex until you personally feel that you are ready. If you are in a relationship with someone and you want to have sex with that person then you should wait until you are both ready.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/18 21:35:29


 
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Bristol

 Asherian Command wrote:
In school systems they will allow people into the school if they are passed through and are wearing an identification badge that identifies them properly as a Visitor. Every school has this and parents are allowed to enter into a school if there kids are aware of it and the school has been properly informed.

On the sex educational thing. I agree with the mother but believe it could of been handled much better. The fact that sexual abistience is still taught and is still a thing. Makes me remind myself that it doesn't work.... At all.Maybe 5% of people actually follow that line of thinking and they are mostly from religious strict orders.


Yeah, most research on abstinence only education has found that it delays sexual activity by about 6 to 12 months. However it also made it that once they did become sexually active they were less likely to use contraception.

The states with abstinence only education are also more likely to have higher rates of teenage pregnancy and repeat teenage pregnancy (ie the same person has got pregnant twice).
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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
 skyth wrote:
The thing is, the report cooberates other stories that have been told.
Stories about these speakers? Please post them.

You guys keep talking about abstinence-only education. Did you just miss that this story is not about that or are you "blatantly lying" and/or "spreading false information about a subject out of ignorance or malice"?


Even within a comprehensive program this sort of abstinence lesson has no place. It is based on incorrect data, hearsay, scare stories and is deeply misleading and aimed at shaming and scaring children into not having sex.

None of those tactics have worked in curtailing drug use so why would they work in curtailing sex?
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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
You guys keep talking about abstinence-only education. Did you just miss that this story is not about that or are you "blatantly lying" and/or "spreading false information about a subject out of ignorance or malice"?
Even within a comprehensive program this sort of abstinence lesson has no place.
Fine but again why are acting (blatantly lying?) as if this story is about abstinence-only education?


Because this abstinence lesson took that approach. Hence why, in this lesson, they totally ignored all forms of contraception but 2. They used the failure rate of an incorrectly used condom to try to justify condom use as not being reliable (along with a completely bs story about an entire pack of condoms being leaky which, as I pointed out earlier, has a probability of 1 divided by all the stars in the universe of occurring) and had a completely anecdotal, with no supporting evidence, story about a girl who got pregnant while on the pill.

The pill has, when taken correctly, a failure rate of less than or equal to 1%. Condoms have a failure rate, when used correctly, of about 2%. They didn't mention, at all, combining these forms or even mention IUDs, the implant or injections. Or the emergency contraception pill.

In the point of view of the talk the only contraception was condoms with an inflated 1/5 chance of failure and if it broke you would get pregnant and you had to have that baby so the only way to not ruin your life was to not have sex.

All that needs to be said about abstinence in sex-ed is this: "Not having sex is the only 100% effective way of not getting pregnant or catching an infection from sexual contact." That's it. No paper babies, no scare stories. Give the kids the facts, not bs political agenda and religious ideology.

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
The guest speaker came to talk about abstinence. That doesn't make the school program abstinence-only sex education.


But the guest speakers talk was not based on facts or evidence. I stand by my statement that a sex-ed course without that lesson is qualitatively better than one with it, due to the misinformation spread by the speaker which can foster distrust of the whole of sex-ed.


It's like having someone say that if you smoke a joint then you will instantly die. Kid then smokes pot and doesn't die. Why should the kid trust anything else that person said about other drugs when they wouldn't even give them the basic facts about pot?

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
Again, fine. My question is about why you are misrepresenting this story as being about abstinence-only education.


Where have I ever claimed that this is about abstinence-only? Where did the article claim it was abstinence-only? Nobody has claimed that.

People have pointed out that abstinence-only education has a higher rate of failure, both in cases of pregnancy and STD prevention, than a comprehensive course. Considering that the groups that give these abstinence talks are typically going to be very similar whether it is abstinence-only or if they're just a speaker as part of a more comprehensive course, I think their impact should be considered.

I have always maintained, throughout this whole thread, that a comprehensive sex-ed course which covers relationships and the mechanics is the best thing for young people. These kinds of abstinence talks, whether on their own or as part of a broader course, offer nothing of value to the young people. They only serve to muddy the issue by introducing incorrect data, emotionally charged anecdotes and to create distrust between young people and the teachers.

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I pointed out that abstinence-only education has a failure rate greater than comprehensive sex-ed. With that in mind, abstinence education adds nothing to a comprehensive sex-ed course and could in fact detract from it.
Ah the heart of the matter. You make an argument about abstinence-only education and then pretend it also applies to any sex education program that mentions abstinence, as if that program was also abstinence-only.


No, any comprehensive sex-ed course will already include the required information about abstinence which is basically: "Not having sex is the only 100% effective way of not getting pregnant or catching an infection from sexual contact."

It takes one sentence to go over the benefits of abstinence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hordini wrote:



So abstinence-only education has a failure rate greater than comprehensive sex-ed. How does it follow that abstinence education adds nothing to a comprehensive sex-ed course? Is a sex-ed course really comprehensive if it doesn't include some talk of abstinence?


Because these abstinence talks are not based on scientific evidence (as demonstrated clearly many times throughout this thread by debunking the claims of the abstinence speaker). A comprehensive course will already have covered abstinence in an impartial and scientifically accurate way which doesn't rely on spreading misinformation about the effectiveness of contraception, or scaring children into thinking that if they get pregnant all of their friends will abandon them and they'll have to struggle through on their own.

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
Abstinence is not really as simple as not having sex; it is choosing not to have sex when you otherwise could. As demonstrated ITT, sex education is principally a matter of values.


And knowing how to have safe sex does not make you any more likely to have sex in the first place. It just means that when you do, you are more informed.

Sex-ed is only a matter of values for those who wish to impose their values onto the children, which is typically the abstinence crowd.

No-one on the comprehensive side is saying that we should encourage kids to have sex. Just that they should be taught how to have sex and be in an adult relationship safely when they do decide to take that step.

So I guess it does come down to values. One side values children making their own decisions based on facts and reasoning, the other side values making children do what they want based on lies and scare stories.

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
One side values children making their own decisions based on facts and reasoning, the other side values making children do what they want based on lies and scare stories.
More culture war rhetorical nonsense ...


If your culture is "lie to children so they do what they're told" (and yes, the speaker did lie to them) then it deserves to have war declared on it. How is giving the children the facts and telling them to make their own decision war against anybody's culture unless that culture assumes that they cannot make that decision themselves? If these people are so worried about their children's values and assume that they will sleep around unless you scare them out of it, then they have absolutely no faith or trust in their children choosing to uphold those values on their own. In which case the kid never truly held those values to begin with.

Consent is not about values but about respect. Considering that those who are pro-abstinence are also often those who come out with things like "legitimate rape" and magical female bodily functions that can identify rape and so don't get pregnant I don't think anybody really wants them to be determining what constitutes consent and teaching that to kids.

Keep religion and politics out of the classroom when it comes to sex and science.

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
Consent is about respect ... and not values? Oh dear ...


Yes. You don't need to value sex after marriage or after a certain age or whatever over just plain sex whenever the person feels they are ready, to teach about consent (ie both partners must be in a fit state to give consent, these things are not consent etc.)

Consent is built upon a mutual respect shared between the two sexual partners which will result in neither side taking advantage of the other. A blanket "say no sex without marriage" does not carry that message. At all.

For example, in the dudes story he said that he chose abstinence to stay with his girlfriend until they married (and then they had sex). What is the difference between that and a teenager staying with their girlfriend until they feel ready to have sex, whether they're married or not? In both cases one partner has respected the feelings and wishes of the other. So why then add in that whole "wait until you find someone who says no" thing in there too, which the speaker did? That is purely about attempting to impose your own religious beliefs onto others and demean those who do not follow them by implying that if someone wants to have sex, they're not worth it.

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Bristol

I still think the most hilarious thing was when Sarah Palin was standing giving a speech about how she supports abstinence only education and how it works whilst her unmarried teenage daughter was standing behind her, pregnant.

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Bristol

 cincydooley wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Or that abstinence-only "education" is complete nonsense that has been pretty clearly shown to be ineffective and is only taught because of right-wing ideology?


Now you're just being disingenuous.

Less effective? Yup. Ineffective? Nope.

Further, the school isn't even teaching abstinence only sex ed. So, you know, there's that.

You obvious, militant bias makes you really hard to engage in a conversation. It's a shame, really.


No, it really is ineffective if we're going off the viewpoint that sex ed should be about keeping young people safe in their sex lives and sexual relationships, rather than making sure they don't have any. It delays sexual activity by 6 to 12 months but also increases the chance that they will have unsafe sex when they do become sexually active.

Which in turn leads to more teenage pregnancies and the continued proliferation of STDs which has been leading to some (such as gonorrhoea) to become resistant to the common treatment antibiotics such as penicillin.

The school may not be abstinence only, but the guest speakers definitely were. What happens when students ask why their regular teacher told them that condoms only fail 2% of the time when the guest speaker said they fail 18% of the time?

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
You obvious, militant bias makes you really hard to engage in a conversation. It's a shame, really.
And that is not the only problem with being fanatical. His arguments are not only polarizing but premised upon the preexisting notion that every conversation is a battle between indisputable truth and shameless lies. Zealots have always claimed they are only standing up for what is right when they burn witches. But it sure seems lime they are really in it to burn people.


This battle is. The kid and his mum had factual evidence. The speakers had none.

Also, people burned witches based on unscientific beliefs and nothing more than anecdotal hearsay, "confirmed" by performing tests designed to prove what they already knew (retractable pins and the such). So in this scenario the witch burners would be the guest speakers whose entire ideology is based on nothing more than anecdotes and misrepresented data.

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Bristol

 Manchu wrote:
It never starts with murder. The first step is moral denigration to dehumanize. You have to portray the enemy as something like shameless liars attacking children. You have to make sure everyone feels comfortable hurling vitriol around. You need to get to the point where it is a matter of good against evil. In the past, this led to stoning, burning, lynching, etch. These days, it is about public shaming, trying to get people fired, and of course playing into the vanity and self-righteousness of the culture warriors who are so outraged.


Wow...

1) Nobody is advocating murder
2) Nobody is dehumanizing anybody. These people are very much human. They're just idiots, like many humans.
3) If you don't want to be portrayed as lying to children then you probably shouldn't lie to children.
4) Stoning, burning and lynching were all perpetrated based on religion or bigotry, which are never based on scientific, factual evidence. They often are claimed to be but are always proven false.
5) If you can be "shamed" by having your viewpoint be proven wrong by scientific evidence then you shouldn't be saying that thing in the first place, especially if you are meant to be educating people.

If you actually feel like commenting on the topic, perhaps by showing how the talk contained factual information which was not misrepresented in any way, then that would be great. Otherwise could you take your nonsensical "culture war" rants into their own topic? Thank you.

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Bristol

Spoiler:
 cincydooley wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The school may not be abstinence only, but the guest speakers definitely were. What happens when students ask why their regular teacher told them that condoms only fail 2% of the time when the guest speaker said they fail 18% of the time?


Which is with "perfect usage."

Planned Parenthood cites that 40% of COLLEGE AGE MALES use condoms incorrectly.

And again, from Planned Parenthood:


Condoms are an effective, inexpensive form of birth control. Of 100 women whose partners use condoms inconsistently or imperfectly, 18 will become pregnant in the first year of use.


I'll assume that's where the 18% comes from.

But if you want to assume that 100% of teenagers are using their condoms correctly, you're perfectly entitled to believe that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:

5) If you can be "shamed" by having your viewpoint be proven wrong by scientific evidence then you shouldn't be saying that thing in the first place, especially if you are meant to be educating people.


So what happens when the 18% statistic exists? And is supplied, freely, by Planned Parenthood?


The 18% which is when it is used incorrectly? Well I guess that's why we have sex ed to teach people how to put one on properly (make sure condom is right way up (should be like a sombrero), pinch tip, unroll over penis, let go of tip, done http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception-guide/pages/how-do-i-use-condom.aspx) which brings the effectiveness up to 98%

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception-guide/pages/male-condoms.aspx
If used correctly every time you have sex, male condoms are 98% effective. This means that two out of 100 women using male condoms as contraception will become pregnant in one year.


And then it's not like there are other alternatives to male condoms...

On the 40% of college males thing. Well that is just highlighting the massive need for a comprehensive sex ed program to bring that number down. Teaching a man abstinence is not gonna make him better at putting a condom on. Teaching him how to do it better, is.

As to the 18%. That figure was given without the information that it was only when used incorrectly. If I missed out that piece of information when citing numbers in a scientific paper my work wouldn't even make it to print.

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Bristol

 cincydooley wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:


On the 40% of college males thing. Well that is just highlighting the massive need for a comprehensive sex ed program to bring that number down. Teaching a man abstinence is not gonna make him better at putting a condom on. Teaching him how to do it better, is.



I guess we'll have to teach them how to not be drunk, high, or excited to get laid, too!


That makes it more difficult, yes and raises the point about how to best curb people from getting so horrendously off their face that they lose all sense of risk management. On the other hand, if they're totally wankered then their equipment probably won't work either so the problem fixes itself

And really, tell a drunk/high person that a condom is a sombrero for their penis and they're gonna want to see that gak!
Then it's just pinch, roll, let go



As to the 18%. That figure was given without the information that it was only when used incorrectly. If I missed out that piece of information when citing numbers in a scientific paper my work wouldn't even make it to print.


I'm really impressed at your confidence in teenagers to put condoms on correctly


First hand experience, both when drunk and sober

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Bristol

 Peregrine wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
So what about all the people that don't want to use condoms?


They aren't included in the 18%.


And won't get sex if their partner wants them to use one. At least not if they understand consent.
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Bristol

I wouldn't really recommend using anything from the last article as an argument.

At the bottom she refers you to two other articles she's written and provides no citation of scientific references to support her hypothesis. In fact, most of the links she puts in her article link to more of her articles which are, again, lacking in scientific references.

Also, the American College of Pediatrics is very clearly a conservative organisation, as can be seen in their About us page and in their opposition to same-sex families, emergency contraception (morning after pill) for teenagers and abortion for teenagers whilst supporting a doctors right to conscience (refuse treatment based on personal beliefs, regardless of if it is the best course of action for the patient), abstinence-only approach to sex-ed and parental notification in adolescent cases (effectively nullifying doctor-patient confidentiality for teenagers).

The first link is not only looking at sexual behaviour but also drug and alcohol abuse. They found that those whose brains were wired to be high risk takers were more likely to engage in sexual activity, drug and alcohol use, which would affect their mental development.

In fact, that first report did not actually look at data concerning sexual activity on its own but rather the combined effects of multiple risky behaviours. This can clearly be seen in the citations, the majority of which are about the effects of drugs and alcohol on brain development, not sexual activity.

It appears that she has taken that data and extrapolated it to include sexual activity, due to similarity in chemical releases from the behaviour.

The second report says, very clearly in its abstract:
There was no significant association between number of sex partners and later anxiety and depression. Increasing numbers of sex partners were associated with increasing risk of substance dependence disorder at all three ages.

The report did not claim that the link was causal. In fact it only suggested further study to investigate the link.

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