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2015/04/20 00:05:12
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I still think the most hilarious thing was when Sarah Palin was standing giving a speech about how she supports abstinence only education and how it works whilst her unmarried teenage daughter was standing behind her, pregnant.
And?
Peregrine, it's really hard to take you seriously when you grind that axe so hard with your heavily chipped shoulders.
2015/04/20 00:06:51
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
cincydooley wrote: Peregrine, it's really hard to take you seriously when you grind that axe so hard with your heavily chipped shoulders.
What axe, that lying to students is wrong? Or that abstinence-only "education" is complete nonsense that has been pretty clearly shown to be ineffective and is only taught because of right-wing ideology?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:07:39
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 00:10:08
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Peregrine wrote: Or that abstinence-only "education" is complete nonsense that has been pretty clearly shown to be ineffective and is only taught because of right-wing ideology?
Now you're just being disingenuous.
Less effective? Yup. Ineffective? Nope.
Further, the school isn't even teaching abstinence only sex ed. So, you know, there's that.
You obvious, militant bias makes you really hard to engage in a conversation. It's a shame, really.
2015/04/20 00:14:23
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Not bad, except the part about facts. Now how is what I quoted Malus posting a criticism of either the position that the mom should not have had a tantrum in front of the kid or that her tantrum, smug tweets, and ideological screed of a blog post loaded down with ad hominem not culture war bullying?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:21:45
It's so much less effective that calling it "ineffective" is entirely appropriate. If you're sick and you buy medicine that works 1% of the time you're not going to hesitate to label it "ineffective". If the best argument you have is nitpicking the difference between "ineffective" and "less effective by a huge margin" then I think it's safe to say you've lost the debate.
Further, the school isn't even teaching abstinence only sex ed.
The speakers were. The fact that the school might have, at some other time, presented better information doesn't change the fact that dangerously inaccurate information was taught in the first place.
You obvious, militant bias makes you really hard to engage in a conversation. It's a shame, really.
I see, so acknowledging that the evidence is very clear in this situation is "militant bias"? Would it also be "militant bias" to argue against flat-earth theory or mind control in the chemtrails without adding constant disclaimers about how the other side makes some very good points and we should respect their opinions?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 00:18:21
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
cincydooley wrote: You obvious, militant bias makes you really hard to engage in a conversation. It's a shame, really.
And that is not the only problem with being fanatical. His arguments are not only polarizing but premised upon the preexisting notion that every conversation is a battle between indisputable truth and shameless lies. Zealots have always claimed they are only standing up for what is right when they burn witches. But it sure seems like they are really in it to burn people. Note for example mom was already tweeting insults before she started listening to the speakers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:19:50
Peregrine wrote: Or that abstinence-only "education" is complete nonsense that has been pretty clearly shown to be ineffective and is only taught because of right-wing ideology?
Now you're just being disingenuous.
Less effective? Yup. Ineffective? Nope.
Further, the school isn't even teaching abstinence only sex ed. So, you know, there's that.
You obvious, militant bias makes you really hard to engage in a conversation. It's a shame, really.
No, it really is ineffective if we're going off the viewpoint that sex ed should be about keeping young people safe in their sex lives and sexual relationships, rather than making sure they don't have any. It delays sexual activity by 6 to 12 months but also increases the chance that they will have unsafe sex when they do become sexually active.
Which in turn leads to more teenage pregnancies and the continued proliferation of STDs which has been leading to some (such as gonorrhoea) to become resistant to the common treatment antibiotics such as penicillin.
The school may not be abstinence only, but the guest speakers definitely were. What happens when students ask why their regular teacher told them that condoms only fail 2% of the time when the guest speaker said they fail 18% of the time?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:25:32
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/04/20 00:21:18
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Manchu wrote: His arguments are not only polarizing but premised upon the preexisting notion that every conversation is a battle between indisputable truth and shameless lies/
In this case it is. Birth control failure rates are not something that is up for debate. The speakers were either shameless liars or so willfully ignorant that it might as well be lying. It's not my fault that conservative zealots keep taking positions that are so clearly wrong (see also: evolution, gay marriage, etc).
Zealots have always claimed they are only standing up for what is right when they burn witches. But it sure seems lime they are really in it to burn people.
I see, so now we're going to pretend that the poor oppressed abstinence-only idiots are the equivalent of murdered witches?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 00:21:50
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
cincydooley wrote: You obvious, militant bias makes you really hard to engage in a conversation. It's a shame, really.
And that is not the only problem with being fanatical. His arguments are not only polarizing but premised upon the preexisting notion that every conversation is a battle between indisputable truth and shameless lies. Zealots have always claimed they are only standing up for what is right when they burn witches. But it sure seems lime they are really in it to burn people.
This battle is. The kid and his mum had factual evidence. The speakers had none.
Also, people burned witches based on unscientific beliefs and nothing more than anecdotal hearsay, "confirmed" by performing tests designed to prove what they already knew (retractable pins and the such). So in this scenario the witch burners would be the guest speakers whose entire ideology is based on nothing more than anecdotes and misrepresented data.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:23:36
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/04/20 00:27:50
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
It never starts with murder. The first step is moral denigration to dehumanize. You have to portray the enemy as something like shameless liars attacking children. You have to make sure everyone feels comfortable hurling vitriol around. You need to get to the point where it is a matter of good against evil. In the past, this led to stoning, burning, lynching, etch. These days, it is about public shaming, harassment, trying to get people fired, and of course playing into the vanity and self-righteousness of the culture warriors who are so outraged.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:29:01
Manchu wrote: It never starts with murder. The first step is moral denigration to dehumanize. You have to portray the enemy as something like shameless liars attacking children. You have to make sure everyone feels comfortable hurling vitriol around. You need to get to the point where it is a matter of good against evil. In the past, this led to stoning, burning, lynching, etch. These days, it is about public shaming, trying to get people fired, and of course playing into the vanity and self-righteousness of the culture warriors who are so outraged.
Wow...
1) Nobody is advocating murder 2) Nobody is dehumanizing anybody. These people are very much human. They're just idiots, like many humans. 3) If you don't want to be portrayed as lying to children then you probably shouldn't lie to children. 4) Stoning, burning and lynching were all perpetrated based on religion or bigotry, which are never based on scientific, factual evidence. They often are claimed to be but are always proven false. 5) If you can be "shamed" by having your viewpoint be proven wrong by scientific evidence then you shouldn't be saying that thing in the first place, especially if you are meant to be educating people.
If you actually feel like commenting on the topic, perhaps by showing how the talk contained factual information which was not misrepresented in any way, then that would be great. Otherwise could you take your nonsensical "culture war" rants into their own topic? Thank you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:38:55
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/04/20 00:38:27
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
The school may not be abstinence only, but the guest speakers definitely were. What happens when students ask why their regular teacher told them that condoms only fail 2% of the time when the guest speaker said they fail 18% of the time?
Which is with "perfect usage."
Planned Parenthood cites that 40% of COLLEGE AGE MALES use condoms incorrectly.
And again, from Planned Parenthood:
Condoms are an effective, inexpensive form of birth control. Of 100 women whose partners use condoms inconsistently or imperfectly, 18 will become pregnant in the first year of use.
I'll assume that's where the 18% comes from.
But if you want to assume that 100% of teenagers are using their condoms correctly, you're perfectly entitled to believe that.
5) If you can be "shamed" by having your viewpoint be proven wrong by scientific evidence then you shouldn't be saying that thing in the first place, especially if you are meant to be educating people.
So what happens when the 18% statistic exists? And is supplied, freely, by Planned Parenthood?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:39:46
2015/04/20 00:39:55
Subject: Re:Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Manchu wrote: It never starts with murder. The first step is moral denigration to dehumanize. You have to portray the enemy as something like shameless liars attacking children. You have to make sure everyone feels comfortable hurling vitriol around. You need to get to the point where it is a matter of good against evil. In the past, this led to stoning, burning, lynching, etch. These days, it is about public shaming, harassment, trying to get people fired, and of course playing into the vanity and self-righteousness of the culture warriors who are so outraged.
Wow. Are you trying to become a parody of yourself?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 00:44:25
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
The school may not be abstinence only, but the guest speakers definitely were. What happens when students ask why their regular teacher told them that condoms only fail 2% of the time when the guest speaker said they fail 18% of the time?
Which is with "perfect usage."
Planned Parenthood cites that 40% of COLLEGE AGE MALES use condoms incorrectly.
And again, from Planned Parenthood:
Condoms are an effective, inexpensive form of birth control. Of 100 women whose partners use condoms inconsistently or imperfectly, 18 will become pregnant in the first year of use.
I'll assume that's where the 18% comes from.
But if you want to assume that 100% of teenagers are using their condoms correctly, you're perfectly entitled to believe that.
5) If you can be "shamed" by having your viewpoint be proven wrong by scientific evidence then you shouldn't be saying that thing in the first place, especially if you are meant to be educating people.
So what happens when the 18% statistic exists? And is supplied, freely, by Planned Parenthood?
The 18% which is when it is used incorrectly? Well I guess that's why we have sex ed to teach people how to put one on properly (make sure condom is right way up (should be like a sombrero), pinch tip, unroll over penis, let go of tip, done http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception-guide/pages/how-do-i-use-condom.aspx) which brings the effectiveness up to 98%
If used correctly every time you have sex, male condoms are 98% effective. This means that two out of 100 women using male condoms as contraception will become pregnant in one year.
And then it's not like there are other alternatives to male condoms...
On the 40% of college males thing. Well that is just highlighting the massive need for a comprehensive sex ed program to bring that number down. Teaching a man abstinence is not gonna make him better at putting a condom on. Teaching him how to do it better, is.
As to the 18%. That figure was given without the information that it was only when used incorrectly. If I missed out that piece of information when citing numbers in a scientific paper my work wouldn't even make it to print.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:51:15
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/04/20 00:45:34
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Otherwise could you take your nonsensical "culture war" rants into their own topic?
Culture war is on topic ... considering this is a thread about a woman having an ideological dispute with guest speakers at her son's school. Did you even read the mom's editorial? Or ... this thread? The woman spends nearly all of the article decrying the values of the speakers in contrast to her own sex positive values. You and Peregrine have desperately blown the question of stats beyond all proportion to its importance to the mom's arguments because you want to make it a debate between yourself and advocates of abstinence-only education, which NO ONE either in the situation in Michigan or in this thread actually supports.
Peregrine wrote: Wow. Are you trying to become a parody of yourself?
This is my thought every time you deny being a culture warrior ... and then decry the guest speakers as BLATANT SHAMELESS LIARS and your declare continued commitment to the INDISPUTABLE TRUTH.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:51:24
cincydooley wrote: So what happens when the 18% statistic exists? And is supplied, freely, by Planned Parenthood?
1) The speakers presented it as an inherent failure rate, not poor usgage. "Condoms fail 18 percent of the time, according to this woman."
2) The 18% failure rate includes failures like "let's not bother with one tonight", and potentially even deliberately having a baby. So the actual failure rate for people who are making a serious effort to do it right is going to be less than 18%, even if it isn't quite the perfect rate.
3) The failure rate for incorrect use is something that probably depends very heavily on being taught how to do it right. So essentially the speakers are saying "the failure rate is 18%, and we'd like it to be higher".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: This is my thought every time you deny being a culture warrior ... and then decry the guest speakers and their BLATANT SHAMELESS LIARS and your declare continued commitment to the INDISPUTABLE TRUTH.
Yes, because the speakers are lying. Seriously, this is not a subject that's open for debate. Your ridiculous attempt at a slippery slope leading to murder is off in its own special category.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/20 00:52:26
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 00:53:55
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Manchu wrote: The woman spends nearly all of the article decrying the values of the speakers in contrast to her own sex positive values.
Well yes, since trying to understand and explain the reasons why they're lying is much more interesting than a one-sentence statement that it's a lie and a link to the evidence.
You and Peregrine have desperately blown the question of stats beyond all proportion to its importance to the mom's arguments because you want to make it a debate between yourself and advocates of abstinence-only education, which NO ONE either in the situation in Michigan or in this thread actually supports.
Nobody except the speakers the school invited, you mean.
And no, I haven't blown it out of proportion, you just want to minimize its importance because it's easier to portray this as a case of "culture war bullying" if the factual argument (which the speakers indisputably lose and deserve to be criticized for) is only a tiny part of the issue. And TBH I suspect you have religious reasons for doing this, but I know you're never going to admit it.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 00:56:15
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
On the 40% of college males thing. Well that is just highlighting the massive need for a comprehensive sex ed program to bring that number down. Teaching a man abstinence is not gonna make him better at putting a condom on. Teaching him how to do it better, is.
I guess we'll have to teach them how to not be drunk, high, or excited to get laid, too!
As to the 18%. That figure was given without the information that it was only when used incorrectly. If I missed out that piece of information when citing numbers in a scientific paper my work wouldn't even make it to print.
I'm really impressed at your confidence in teenagers to put condoms on correctly
2015/04/20 00:57:42
Subject: Re:Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Manchu wrote: So in addition to being BLATANT SHAMELESS LIARS, they also want more kids having unplanned pregnancies and developing STIs ... ?
Maybe not explicitly*, but that's the inevitable and entirely predictable result. I'd say it's more accurate that they want the failure rate to be as high as possible to scare people into being obedient Christians, and the lives destroyed in the process are just an unfortunate side effect. Their ideal world is one in which the failure rate is 90% and hardly anyone has sex outside of marriage because they're too afraid of the consequences.
*Some abstinence-only zealots do view that as well-deserved punishment for sin, but I'll concede that it's possible to support abstinence-only "education" without being quite that insane.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 00:59:04
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
On the 40% of college males thing. Well that is just highlighting the massive need for a comprehensive sex ed program to bring that number down. Teaching a man abstinence is not gonna make him better at putting a condom on. Teaching him how to do it better, is.
I guess we'll have to teach them how to not be drunk, high, or excited to get laid, too!
That makes it more difficult, yes and raises the point about how to best curb people from getting so horrendously off their face that they lose all sense of risk management. On the other hand, if they're totally wankered then their equipment probably won't work either so the problem fixes itself
And really, tell a drunk/high person that a condom is a sombrero for their penis and they're gonna want to see that gak! Then it's just pinch, roll, let go
As to the 18%. That figure was given without the information that it was only when used incorrectly. If I missed out that piece of information when citing numbers in a scientific paper my work wouldn't even make it to print.
I'm really impressed at your confidence in teenagers to put condoms on correctly
First hand experience, both when drunk and sober
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/20 01:22:40
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/04/20 00:59:21
Subject: Re:Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Manchu wrote: Now that you have made it about my religion, are you ready to admit you are a culture warrior?
So now speculating about a person's reasons for holding a particular position is "culture war"? Who knew that such a simple little term could have such a broad definition...
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2015/04/20 01:02:32
Subject: Re:Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
Manchu wrote: Now that you have made it about my religion, are you ready to admit you are a culture warrior?
So now speculating about a person's reasons for holding a particular position is "culture war"? Who knew that such a simple little term could have such a broad definition...
When it comes to religions and anyone who disagrees with your rather leftist view, Peregrine, you're incredibly condescending. It's quite a bummer.
Isn't there a meme about that?
2015/04/20 01:02:56
Subject: Professor attends and live tweets sons Sex Education Class. Hilarity Ensues.
You are attacking my argument explicitly on the basis of my religion (or rather your bizarre misunderstanding of my religious beliefs). That is pretty much the definition of culture war.
