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Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Street Judge


[MOD EDIT- Alpharius]

A nicely written, concise version of a State of the Robotech Union, as of 06-10-2016:

 Forar wrote:
 Eilif wrote:
Hey Folks,
I was curious about this game since a buddy of mine picked up some of the figs. Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but can someone satisfy my morbid curiosity and let me know where the game and the kickstarter currently stands.

Hrm, how to sum this up...

- Campaign finished May 2013. They were allegedly '98% done'
- Delivery target was Dec 2013, but PB expressed such confidence that they might even deliver in Oct or Nov.
- Jan 2014 they admit it'll have to be done in two waves.
- Spring/Summer 2014 wave one goes from design to production.
- Wave one begins shipping to NA backers/retail Oct/Nov 2014.
- The Rest of the World waits for months, they finally (allegedly) finish delivery of wave 1 in Q1 or Q2'ish (exact isn't really pertinent; they took way too long).
- Feb 2015 we see 5 sprue breakdowns for wave 2 figures.
- March 2015 at the "Palladium Open House" they announce that they're aiming to deliver wave 2 in late 2015. Obviously this gets missed as well. That eventually shifts to "Q1 or Q2 2016" (there are a bunch of variations here, it's not an exhaustive list), until at Anime North recently someone working with PB states that 2016 is not happening.
- June 2015: they post two GIANT 'updates' that don't actually update us on anything, bring the specter of a scale change for future figure lines up as a distraction, and blame/throw under the bus everyone they can while declaring themselves the saviour of anime in north america.
- We don't see any progress on wave 2 until Feb/March'ish 2016, literally a year since (four 3D printed prototypes and a resin/metal prototype of a non-game piece that was available as an add on during the campaign).
- Allegedly PB have been 'in talks' to 'trim the parts count' for like 1.5-2 years, and frankly I have zero faith in them delivering in 2017, so this '7 month project' has ballooned out to over 3.5 years with no end in sight.

It is, in a word, a clusterfeth. That isn't even touching on the lacking communications, lies (active and in retrospect), and dozens of other aspects that make this the worst experience I've had on Kickstarter, especially with the amount of money they took in and what my friends and I contributed.

Again, this is a *very* brief overview. The particulars are long enough I could write a book about them, from the 'vote' to sell at Gencon to the Customs debacle to "Spartangate" and beyond. It's basically the pinnacle of "making it big with a KS campaign and then pissing away almost all good will and nostalgia they had going for them".


Kevin Siembieda of Palladium Books wants to re-start the conversation of RRT ...
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Update – June 6, 2015

By Kevin Siembieda

As you know, we have been wanting and needing to post this massive Update for weeks. I realized it was something that needed to be done back in April. But as always, there is so much to do all the time.

Attending AdeptiCon, hosting a Robotech® RPG Tactics™ tournament at the Palladium Open House and talking with more and more of our Kickstarter backers, and wargamers in general, especially over the last 6-8 months, has helped to crystallize a number of plans we’ve been kicking around for awhile.

One is to restart the conversation about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ with our Kickstarter backers. And that’s exactly what this post is all about. I apologize for the length of this Update, but there is a lot to talk about, both past and present. And I hope I answered many of the questions that have been circulating for a while.

It is rare that I ever wish I could hit a reset button and do something all over again. Differently. Better. The Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter and the related RRT launch is one such time I wish we could get a do-over.

There is no “reset button” or “do-over” that can undo everything and let us start again, back to 2013, with the knowledge we have today. But we can start again, with you, if you’ll let us.

I’ll go into the specifics of the news and developments with Robotech® RPG Tactics™, upcoming products, and the future for this game line in a moment, but the bottom line is: We simply were not prepared for the full scope and magnitude of such a large and successful Kickstarter, nor manufacturing in China. The learning curve has been considerable and has contributed to some of the delays, while other delays have been to do the game right. Palladium is getting up to speed and, of course, intends to fulfill this Kickstarter, as well as do so much more.

We were lost the woods for a while when we started this venture. We were full of ideas and good intentions, but with scarcely a clue about the magnitude of the undertaking awaiting us. We were smart enough from the beginning to know that we’d need some expert help. Someone with experience with Kickstarters, sculpting, and making this type of game, which is why we joined forces with Ninja Division (the creative people behind Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios).
I have broken the rest of this into parts for readability:
Who is Palladium Books®?
We’ve only recently come to realize that many of you from the wargaming community don’t really know much, if anything, about Palladium Books. That became evident with some of the wild speculation about us and the future of the RRT product line. Again, this is something we probably should have realized, but we did not.

Palladium Books has been a force in the role-playing market for more than three decades, but we didn’t think about the fact that many of our Kickstarter backers may never have heard of us. After all, the role-playing game and tabletop wargame game markets do not have a lot of crossover. That has changed and continues to change in recent years, but the fact is, for many of you, Palladium Books is a blank slate. An unknown quantity.

Please allow me introduce ourselves. Palladium Books is an established company. Not some fly-by-night startup. We have been creating and publishing role-playing games since 1981. That’s 34 years, folks, and we have no intention of going away.

Our two biggest licensed RPGs have been Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Robotech®. Our biggest and best selling RPG is Rifts®, and it has even been optioned for development into a live action motion picture. We don’t know if that will ever happen as the IP has been sitting in development hell for 13 years, but we remain hopeful.

I’m going to focus on Palladium’s history with Robotech® because that’s what’s important to most of you. Palladium released The Robotech® RPG waaaay back in 1986. We worked to get this license because we were ALL big fans of the Robotech® animated TV series. The guys writing the novels used our books for reference. Many of us at Palladium collected the Bandai toys and model kits, Robotech® books and, well . . . everything we could find for Robotech®. We acquired the license because we loved the property.

The Robotech® RPG (1986) was an instant smash hit. Sourcebooks followed. We’d also release Robotech® II: The Sentinels® RPG (1987) and the Macross® II RPG (1992). In 1989, I knew fans wanted Robotech® on VHS videocassettes. When LIVE Entertainment dropped the ball by editing the episodes of Macross they had released, and earned the ire of fans everywhere, they contacted Palladium Books and generously offered us the rights to release Robotech® on VHS tapes, uncut. I jumped at the opportunity even though nobody else saw the market potential. As a dyed-in-the-wool Robotech® fan, I knew other fans were dying for Robotech® to be done right on VHS. My distributors and advisers were not so sure. This was back in the day when “Japanamation” was a new concept and anime in the English language was a rare thing. I took the plunge anyway. Of our 72 distributors back in the day, only ONE placed an order. And it was for something like 26 copies. Things looked bleak.

I came up with a new strategy and went to a direct mail campaign with ads in Dragon Magazine and other print mediums. (The Internet was just in its infancy in 1989.) The demand was immediate and tremendous. Within 6 weeks, Palladium had distributors begging for Robotech® on VHS videocassettes. The release of the beloved Robotech® animated series on VHS was a huge success for Palladium.

Palladium Books® was the first company to offer the entire Robotech® series on videotape in North America, including the three episodes of Robotech® II: The Sentinels®. We topped the “anime” best seller charts with every release. At one point we had eight of the top 10 slots. Back then, people considered us a pioneer in bringing “anime” to North America. For a very short while, I guess we were pivotal to those early days. The thing is, we did it because we loved the Robotech® TV show and knew our fellow fans wanted it.

We would have continued to sell the tapes except that the mastermind behind Robotech®, Carl Macek and his company, Streamline Entertainment, outbid us. Carl also had plans to get Robotech® back into television syndication which trumped anything Palladium could offer. Sadly, his attempts to re-syndicate the show were very limited and short-lived.

For many years, Palladium Books was at the forefront of helping to keep Robotech® available to fans. We let the Robotech® license go after 15 years (2001), because we felt we had done what we could with it, at the time, and because we could not support the plans to abandon the original Robotech® anime in favor of exclusively focusing on the ill-fated Robotech® 3000, which was the intention of the powers that be at Harmony Gold at that time. Robotech® 3000 was supposed to be a new Robotech® animated series, but it never happened. Some years later we found ourselves missing Robotech®. When the opportunity arose for us to reacquire the Robotech® license (2007) under a new regime at Harmony Gold USA, Inc. – guys who were fans themselves and who loved the entire series – we again jumped at the chance.

For us, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ isn’t just about the potential money we might make, this is a dream job. It’s the culmination of everything we could ever want. This is a passion. We want this game to be freakin’ awesome. We want to wow and woo you. We want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to be a great experience.

We are the very same guys who did the Robotech® role-playing games and brought you the Robotech® series on VHS videocassettes when no one else even realized there was a market for such products. We love Robotech®. We want to make great Robotech® products to share with all our fellow Robotech® fanatics around the world! The Macross Saga portion of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) is just the beginning. Just as we did with the original games and videotapes, we intend to bring you every aspect and era of Robotech® for the RRT game line! If you saw it in the TV show, we want to provide it as a game piece for Robotech® RPG Tactics™. After all, every new mecha, vehicle and combat unit adds to your gaming experience and broadens the scope of combat!

And we are just getting started.

We haven’t talked about our passion or plans for the future, because we haven’t even satisfied our current commitments with RRT Wave 2, though we are getting there.

We didn’t share with you who Palladium is or our history with Robotech®, because it just didn’t dawn on us to do so. We just sorta figured everyone knew who we were. I know, stupid, but we didn’t think of it. And once the Kickstarter had ended with such a resounding success, we found ourselves on a runaway train and hanging on for dear life. And not just on a train ride. Think of the old Westerns or that moment in Indiana Jones where he’s fighting on that speeding truck and trying not to fall to his doom. That was us and RRT after the Kickstarter. Read on for the gory details.
The Advent of Robotech® RPG Tactics™
It is our love of Robotech® and the desire to bring it to fans in new and exciting ways that prompted us to create Robotech® RPG Tactics™.

The ideas started to percolate in the beginning of 2012, after I found out Harmony Gold was open to letting Palladium do game pieces for our existing RPG game license.

In 2012, my original plan was to only make game pieces to sell as an add-on to the existing role-playing game market. Research is 90% of everything in business, so we started to quietly talk with fans to find out whether they had any interest in Robotech® game pieces. They did. That led us to recognize the growing excitement for tabletop games and wargames, and we started to consider releasing the game pieces as part of a bigger, new Robotech® game. I also had Thomas Roache, Carmen Bellaire and others pitching us on the idea of creating an entirely new game that placed an emphasis on the use of the game pieces as well as offering them to the existing RPG player base and collectors. The more I researched and talked with fans, distributors and industry people, the more excited I became about all of it.

I felt we needed to keep the game pieces simple and easy to put together. No more than 8-10 parts, especially if we were to make the new Robotech® game and pieces appealing to a wide audience. I even rejected one potential partner, early on, because he insisted that to make the mecha highly detailed – the way fans insisted they wanted – the pieces would have to have 16-20 parts. That to me was not acceptable. Turns out he was right, especially via the manufacturing method we ended up using. I wish I had stuck to my guns on that small piece count and simplicity, but I’m getting ahead of myself.

First, I want to thank Thomas Roache for his persistence and passion that opened my eyes to the possibilities. Honestly, I don’t know if Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would exist if it were not for Tom and his efforts to rally an online movement for Palladium to even consider something like this. It was also Tom who first suggested Palladium talk to Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division about working with us to make the game pieces and it was Ninja Division, Tom and Carmen Bellaire who helped convince us that doing a new game would be the way to go with this project. Tom’s insights and suggestions continue to this very day. Since then we’ve added other fan consultants, guys like Bad_Syntax, Mike Arnold, David Chase Murphy, and many, many others who have offered constructive suggestions and help. That number would grow to immense proportions after the Kickstarter as we would have an army of fans to bounce ideas off on and get suggestions from. I always make a point to speak with dozens of backers and fans at every convention. Everyone we have spoken with has been a huge help. And that dialogue will continue, hopefully on an even larger scale as we move forward to expand the Robotech® universe.

We thought we had all our bases covered. And we did. But only to a point. The thing is, when you are new to something – something massive – and go into it blind, you don’t even necessarily know the right questions to ask or what you should be doing. You have just leaped off the proverbial cliff and have no idea how far the drop is or what you are going to land in. We thought we did. But we didn’t.

What we all knew for sure is that we had a lot to familiarize ourselves with and master, but we had no idea how huge of an amount that was, nor the vast scope of related things we’d also need to learn. It was immense and overwhelming at times. Ninja Division was there to help and we could NOT have done this without them. But they had their own projects to launch and manage, and other commitments to deal with. We understand that, but it meant there were times where we could have used more input. Other times we were scrambling to take care of whatever the new challenges were, and sometimes while learning exactly how do that.

As it turned out, none of us at Palladium Books nor Ninja Division were truly prepared for EVERYTHING to come.

Here’s just one simple example. The first container of RRT games is about to ship from China in July of 2014. As in, it will be ready to ship in 10 days. We are happy as can be. We assumed Ninja Division would handle the importing as Palladium has NO experience in this whatsoever and had informed them of this. Or if not ND, the Manufacturing Broker that Ninja Division brought in on this project. So we were left dazed and scrambling, again, when the Ninjas told us, “Sorry, you need to deal with this directly and on your own. We can’t help you, because we don’t know this stuff either and you need to take care of all the paperwork, we can’t do it for you.” They couldn’t recommend a broker, either; presumably because this end of the business was new to them too. When we asked ND if the Manufacturing Broker could handle it for us, they said, no. We later learned that the company could have done it, but apparently ND didn’t know that at the time.

Palladium had absolutely no knowledge about overseas shipping, export or import. Nothing about the paperwork. Nothing about the cost. Nothing about . . . well, any aspect of overseas shipping. (The Ninjas had given us an estimated cost for shipping, but the real costs would be more than double that estimate.) Suddenly, we have 10 days to find a shipping broker and figure all of this out. The first few days go toward reaching out to people we know and seeing if they could refer an import broker. We pick the one that appears on the list of two companies we know and trust, and give them a call. They turn out to be quite understanding, patient and helpful. They explain the process, help us figure out the “codes” and “classifications” of the “goods” being imported, help us fill out the paperwork, and the whole nine yards.

Of course, nothing is easy. Here are the highlights of things we learned about shipping when we had to deal with the importing of RRT: Palletize the shipment at the factory in China or in the States? Become aware that only certain types of pallets can be used and they need a certificate showing they have been treated against various types of insects to pass US Customs. Having that document is a must. Being lost in the woods, we don’t realize that the shipment must be made ready on a particular day, and that the factory or our broker must arrange for the shipment to be trucked from the factory to the docks (an additional cost), and do so by a certain time on that particular day so it can be loaded onto the scheduled ship. And that shipment must be scheduled for that specific vessel 2-3 weeks in advance. If there is a delay at the factory and you miss the scheduled ship, add a week or two (sometimes longer) till the next container ship is available. And then there may be port charges for cargo that sits at port for more than a few days. Assuming your shipment gets to the port on time, you are okay, except the vessel may be behind schedule one to several days, or is delayed at port after being loaded for one to several days. Once out to sea, it’s 3-4 weeks before it arrives.

When the ship arrives at a US port it does NOT automatically pull up to a dock and start to unload. It has to wait for a dock to open up and get clearance to proceed to dock. That’s normally 1-3 days. Then you have to wait a few days for it to clear US Customs without being tagged for inspection. Our first shipment got tagged, which is why we could not start shipping to backers as early as we had planned, nor have any product at the 2014 Gen Con Indy. If tagged for Customs inspection – which being a first time importer from China, we were – you are looking at another “5-7 business days” before it is cleared. (Our container was cleared, no problems, after six or seven days, plus the weekend when it just sat.) After passing US Customs, the shipment waits another few days before it can be picked up by truck and delivered to Palladium in Westland, Michigan. Or a few days to deliver it by truck to the train depot for delivery by train to the Detroit terminal, and then picked up by a truck and delivered to the Palladium warehouse. Delivery by train is a couple thousand dollars less expensive (multiply that by 10 containers and it’s a considerable savings), but it adds an extra 4-6 days vs truck. In an effort to expedite shipping to our Kickstarter backers, we had the first few shipments trucked to us. Once a truck is scheduled, you are stuck with it, even if there are delays at port. And, btw, you might be charged for cargo sitting in port even if the delay is not your fault. The “work slowdown” and subsequent strike at ports across the USA would make matters even more complicated, causing horrendous delays throughout the shipping of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. It was a nightmare, and from what we heard, we missed the worst delays that came later. Wow. And then one container got put on the train, made it to Detroit, and then got put back on the train and sent all over the place, starting with Chicago and ending up in Mexico – yes, Mexico – before it finally arrived at Palladium! Wild and completely out of our control.

Out of the blue, we had to become fluent with all of this, and more, the hard way. And that’s just to receive the product from China. Shipping from the Palladium warehouse across North America and around the world was a whole other animal. And a whole other batch of things to put into place, master and manage. At this point, Wayne and Julius know a lot more about logistics and shipping than they ever imagined. But again, I digress.

And that’s on top of all the things we had to handle with regard to the actual RRT game design, writing, packaging, 3D sculpting, mold making, engineering, manufacturing, advertising and managing the Kickstarter. Whew. Ninja Division was there to show us the ropes and handle the key components, but there were mountains of material for Palladium to review, corrections and changes to be made, things to catch and other work to be done before final approvals. That’s why I used importing of goods as an example, above, because it sounds simple, and compared to some of the other demands and challenges, it was.
The birth of Robotech® RPG Tactics™
When we embarked on this journey (early 2012 and long before we announced any plans), we knew we wanted to take Robotech® in a dynamic, new direction with game pieces for role-players, wargamers and collectors alike. The more we discussed the possibilities with Palladium game designer Carmen Bellaire, Thomas Roache and others, the more we gravitated toward doing a completely new, kick-ass game. Something epic in scope that included beautifully detailed game pieces that would delight Robotech® fans. We quietly began researching and exploring all possibilities. We listened to fans and began conceptualizing what needed to be done.

As Robotech® fans ourselves, and after several months of research, we had a very good idea of what fans wanted and what we wanted to do. Of course, we listened to the fans. They wanted 1/285 scale, highly detailed game pieces. Sounded good to us. Harmony Gold concurred. The trick was the actual execution.

That’s where Ninja Division came in. We spoke with a number of people as we moved forward to make Robotech® game pieces, but after speaking with John Cadice of Soda Pop Miniatures (and soon after, Kai, David and other members of the team that would become Ninja Division), we felt we had found the right group of people to make this game happen. They were supremely confident, smart, and self-professed Robotech® fans eager to embrace a project like this. The quality of the products they had produced themselves and in concert with other game publishers was excellent. Super Dungeon Explore was a hot new release at the time, Helldorado was another, and Relic Knights was being developed and looked fabulous. Both Carmen Bellaire and Tom Roache were ecstatic over the choice to work with these guys to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Everyone we spoke to, including distributors and industry people, agreed that Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios were the right choice to team up with. These guys certainly had the anime style down. Everyone seemed to have positive feedback about these “impressive new guys.” We liked them and liked what they had to say. They explained they had the knowledge, the experience and were ready to start work immediately. We just had to trust them. We did, so we took the plunge.

It was on!

Ninja Division got to work. Palladium Books ponied up $40,000 to get the ball rolling. It was a risk, because if the Kickstarter flopped, we’d be screwed. ND got the 3D sculptors sculpting, the game design and writing into development, key art and packaging into production, and other pre-production elements rockin’ and rollin’. Lacking experience with 3D sculpting and manufacturing in China, Palladium felt it wise to leave most of the technical decisions up to Ninja Division, with Palladium approving sculpts, artwork, packaging, etc., before it would be sent to Harmony Gold for final approval. The game rules we developed together, as we had very strong ideas about what the game needed to be, and what Robotech® fans wanted.
The Kickstarter
The guys at Ninja Division had the technical knowhow, the connections and the people to help Palladium make this product, now all we needed was the money to do it. And that was a problem.

When we started to get serious about Robotech® RPG Tactics™, talks naturally segued into how do we afford all this? Ninja Division estimated the cost to be between $550,000 and $900,000 to make the game and expansion packs we all wanted to see made. And not just enough to provide to the Kickstarter backers, but enough to get the game into the retail market. That was an impossible amount of money for Palladium. “Not if you launch it via Kickstarter.” That was what everybody was telling us, the Ninjas included. All of them were right.

It was my friend Jolly Blackburn, creator of Knights of the Dinner Table, who first told me about Kickstarter and that I should look into it. A couple weeks later, out of the blue, Carmen Bellaire began ranting about the value of Kickstarter and that it was something Palladium needed to look into. This was before Robotech® RPG Tactics™ was even an idea.

Carmen was the first to restart the Kickstarter conversation, saying we should fund the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ project via Kickstarter. That it would be easy. Tom Roache concurred. We were hesitant. It sounded great, but we knew it had to be a lot more demanding and difficult than it sounded. And it had to be done right to be successful.

Doing a Kickstarter and needing that amount of money was scary. Exciting, but scary. And Palladium had NO experience in doing one or knowing how to handle it.

Enter Ninja Division. At the time, Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios had done something like eight Kickstarters between them, and had the experience we lacked in all areas. The Ninjas said they could handle the Kickstarter 100%, from start to finish. From the graphics, writing and the video presentation, to the stretch goals and Q&A. This was a huge relief, as we knew nothing about doing a Kickstarter. We let the Ninjas run with it, sat back and watched in awe. Of course, we made some suggestions and did some editing, but this was Ninja Division’s show. We trusted their expertise and what needed to be done. And look as the result, wow. The Kickstarter was a tremendous success and there was much rejoicing.

But nothing is easy. I had big concerns about costs all around. I badly wanted to include additional shipping fees in the Kickstarter. Something that almost everyone does today, but back then, we were strongly advised not to. We were told that nobody (back then) charged shipping and that if we charged a shipping fee in addition to the backer pledge levels, it would severely reduce the chances of a successful Kickstarter. This was the subject of many discussions. I finally acquiesced, but it would be something that would haunt us later, as shipping worldwide would be in the neighborhood of $150,000 all by itself. Just for Wave One! Yeah, shipping is brutal, especially with the advent of “dimensional weight” – the larger the package, regardless of weight, the more it costs. The Ninjas said they factored shipping into the pledge levels, but final costs would be greater than their estimates across the board.

Remember that runaway train I spoke of early? When the Kickstarter ended, that train took off with us on it, and it immediately started to rocket out of control.

First, not knowing anything about Kickstarters, we did not realize the real job of managing a Kickstarter begins AFTER the Kickstarter is funded. We thought that when Ninja Division said it would handle the Kickstarter from start to finish, that they would be handling everything. Again, we didn’t know what “everything” entailed.

As it turned out, they meant “finish” as a successful funding. Again, not knowing exactly what’s involved and with miscommunication by both parties, Palladium did not realize it would be our responsibility to handle the thousands of emails and questions that would follow the successful funding of the Kickstarter. Remember, we were still figuring out and learning everything about Kickstarters, including establishing the BackerKit storefront to manage the pledges of our 5,000+ backers, among many other things. Consequently, something like six weeks went by without Palladium answering a single question or email on the Kickstarter page. It was only when one of the Ninjas reached out to Palladium, asking why were we ignoring the backers on the Kickstarter page, and the discussion that followed, that we at Palladium realized it was our job to manage the page. We jumped right on it, but by then, backers were frustrated and we had a thousand plus emails to answer, plus regular posts and updates to make. Like I said, it was crazy as that express train was rocketing down the tracks with more unexpected challenges and surprises to come.
Second, we discovered we were not “98% done” and ready for manufacturing. This was a huge surprise, the details and depths of which we did not come to fully understand till some months after we had missed our 2013 Fall Release. I’ve caught a lot of flack for saying we were 98% done, but that’s what we thought. All of us.
Our past experience was the old school method of making game pieces in which once you have your sculpts – in this case, the 3D renders – you make your mold and you start spitting out and packaging pieces. 98% of the 3D sculpts were done. The rules, done. The artwork, done. Final book layout easy, breezy and something that should be done in a matter of days; a no-brainer. Game card designs, mostly finished. When we launched and finished the Kickstarter, we truly thought we were 98% DONE. Here’s something you’ll laugh at, when we first estimated a November 2013 release, we actually thought we were being cautious. There was no doubt in our minds at Palladium that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would ship that Fall. December at the latest. We spent money on ads saying as much.

Boy, were we wrong.

It turns out the type of manufacturing we’re doing is fairly new to the hobby game industry. There are serious conversion and incompatibility issues in converting the 3D models done by the sculptors to what needs to be done in China to make the molds and go into manufacturing. This is not just something Palladium and Ninja Division ran into, it’s true for EVERYONE using this type of manufacturing process. Only we didn’t know that at the time. Neither did Ninja Division, who were only starting to get the picture after the Kickstarter ended and they sent the first digital files over. (Or if they did, they didn’t realize the conversion process would be as arduous.) It would take Palladium months to grasp exactly what the situation was. Mainly because at that time, we weren’t directly involved in the conversations with the factory and the Manufacturing Broker. As the seemingly inexplicable delays went on, it seemed insane to us. How could someone not have made a conversion program for these incompatible files (3D sculpts versus what the manufacturer/factory needs)? However, we have since had this confirmed by the folks at Dust and several other game companies that this is, indeed, the case, and there is no way around it at the present time. Crazy, right?

As I understand it, the engineers in China have to completely rebuild, and recreate EACH 3D file, using the 3D sculpts as a base from which to start, and even that is mainly just reference for the pose. They have to, in effect, completely redesign a completely new digital model to manufacturing specifications. To complicate matters further, the engineers in China have to adjust the 3D sculpts further to take into consideration the manufacturing process and the types of metal molds that are required. That makes certain undercuts and details impossible, and requires different approaches and more numerous pieces to make the detailed game pieces all of us Robotech® fans wanted.

This created a tremendous amount of additional work and delays complicated by the language barrier and the way things are done in China. The increase in the number of pieces, and more tiny parts than any of us expected, has become something of an issue as well. Making some mecha more of a pain in the neck to build than others. That said, the mecha in Robotech® RPG Tactics™ look gorgeous when built and even more gorgeous when beautifully painted. We have seen hundreds of amazing finished pieces. And even the perceived level of difficulty and time to build them are a matter of debate depending on the level of experience and temperament of the model builder/gamer. A lot of people seem to think the Destroids are a bitch. Then I talk to someone with an army of painted Veritechs and Destroids who tell me it wasn’t that bad. Such is the nature of this hobby. I know a couple of people, for example, who could cobble Destroids together in 20-30 minutes and they look great. But both of the guys that I personally know, are either experienced model builders or experienced wargamers.

I’m personally disappointed by the large number of parts, because it makes the point of entry difficult for gamers new to this hobby. It’s even worse for collectors who just want a cool mecha to slap together in five minutes and put on their shelf. I understand that, because I’m one of those guys. Though I’m an artist, I’m not great at building or painting what amounts to tiny model kits. I’m that collector or gamer who is disappointed by the complexity and work required to build these pieces. I would need someone to build (and paint) them for me and that becomes expensive very quickly. Though, man, do they look great painted. Palladium and Ninja Division went this route because we were trying to please you and provide you with the product we thought you wanted.

To make a long story short, we thought we were on top of things. We thought Robotech® RPG Tactics™ would be ready to ship by the Fall of 2013, only six months after the Kickstarter. The problem was, we didn’t know as much as we thought. And that included Ninja Division when it came to all the ins-and-outs of manufacturing in China, 3D file conversions and the amount of time required for all of it. The commitments to the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter are truly massive, with a tremendous number of moving parts, as Ninja Division puts it, and it all takes time to coordinate to make it right. We hate that it is all taking so long, but we have never stopped working on trying to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ something great.

There are many other things I could discuss, but they would take up another 20 pages and are all water under the bridge. We’re all about moving forward, unleashing RRT Wave Two and doing much more with Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to broaden the scope of the game and options for fun.

Palladium Books is committed to the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game line, not just as a Kickstarter project, but as a long term, continuing game line that will become epic as we proceed. The massive undertaking and our lack of experience have delayed some parts of our planned releases, but Palladium remains committed to this great property and the RRT game line. It’s just going to take longer to fully launch. We’ll need your support and time to nurture and grow it. Once Wave Two is released, we can continue to expand the Macross setting as well as doing the other Robotech® generations of settings and factions, and we believe the momentum will surge and we should be able to keep building upon all aspects of the game. A great game.
Wow, we hit the character limit for Kickstarter Update posts, so this will have to be split into two. Please continue on to the next Update.
Doing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ right
From the very beginning we have tried to do Robotech® right and make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ great. Remember, we are those same fan boys who have been publishing Robotech® products for decades. We have had industry experts like Ninja Division onboard from the start, and we’ve listened to Robotech® fans and our Kickstarter backers while working hard to make everyone happy. We’ve come to understand more about you and what you need and want for this product. We continue to listen to you and we are making the changes and moving forward in the manner we think you will want to see.

You can’t make everyone happy. Everyone has an opinion, and opinions vary. Sometimes a lot. Which voices and opinions do you listen to? Who do you let make the final judgement on decisions? Everyone can’t be right when there are several differing points of view.

Don’t worry, we’re on that too. We’ve learned valuable lessons from the past and we continue to learn about this game market and the specific wants of our backers and gamers. Carmen Bellaire and I will be taking a much more direct hand in future products. We have also developed a network of industry people and trusted fan advisors from our Kickstarter backers.

Let’s face it, we all got what (we thought) we wanted: “highly detailed, 1/285th scale (6mm) game pieces.” That’s what everyone wanted and was shouting from the rafters. Us included!
Well, that’s what we have, and it is not exactly what we all wanted, after all. What none of us realized is that to preserve all that detail and posability there would be a lot of parts and pieces to put together. Ninja Division felt that would be okay. Honestly, I’m not sure what the alternative would be, but we are looking into them for ALL FUTURE game pieces and expansion packs after RRT Wave Two. Heck, we’ve been looking at ways to try to reduce the number of pieces in RRT Wave Two, but that’s taking much longer than we hoped and is yielding minimal results.

We are working on it. The smaller size of future mecha in the later eras of Robotech® will have some impact on that issue. Plus, we now realize – as do many of you – that sacrificing some detail to have fewer pieces and easy ways to build the mecha is the way to go in the future.
Our greatest asset is you, we know that

In the end, you, our Kickstarter backers and Robotech® fans, have been our greatest resource and biggest help in figuring all this out. You, more than anyone, have helped guide us through the last two years. You’ve helped us come to a clearer understanding of what you need and want. Some of you even came to the Palladium warehouse to help us pack and ship to other backers. And boy, do we appreciate everything. It has been you who have helped point us in different directions, shared your knowledge and experiences, suggested painters and manufacturers, and offered up many excellent ideas and suggestions, many of which we intend to run with. We are constantly amazed at your willingness to share your thoughts and help. We have met hundreds of you at conventions, events, and at our office. Many others, even some close and frequent contacts, are faceless voices from the Internet, but just as important as anyone we have met in person. All of you guys have been awesome. Please, keep the suggestions coming! We want your input as we complete RRT Wave Two and move on to other eras and settings for Robotech®. We are listening, we always have. We just have not always been in a position to move as quickly as any of us would like.

We have learned a hell of a lot these past two years, and you have been a big part of that. We continue to fine-tune our knowledge and plans for RRT Wave Two and the Robotech® generations yet to come. We welcome the constructive input and want you to point out things that you think we should consider.
The Future of Robotech® RPG Tactics™
We plan to do it all. Every mecha, combat vehicle, alien, battle setting and avenue of adventure in the Robotech® universe. And that’s from every era: The Macross Saga, The Masters Saga, New Generation, Shadow Chronicles and MORE such as the Malcontent Uprisings, the Unification War, and the Zentraedi vs the Regent’s Invid hordes and the Inorganics. If you saw it in the anime, we want to eventually include it in the expanding universe of Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
And we want your involvement every step of the way!

Size matters. For example, the size of the mecha in other eras of Robotech®. Do we keep the 6mm scale as we original planned and talked about in the Kickstarter and early postings, or do we scale them up a bit, say from 6mm to 15mm?

The knee-jerk reaction from me and the Palladium crew, as well as those of you we have heard from, is to keep the game pieces at the 6mm scale! But is it really a good idea? I want everyone to take a moment and really think about this. Remember, we all thought we wanted lots of details on the game pieces and look at what we have, mecha with a lot of small pieces to build. Some people are not very happy with that. I think we are all figuring things out as we go along, and we need a conversation about whether we really should maintain the 6mm scale for future, smaller mecha and vehicles.

When any of us imagine everything to scale in our heads, it all looks marvelous. But when you see these game pieces in real life, at real 6mm scale – the size difference is shocking and disappointing. The 6mm pieces are tiny and unimpressive. Unless you hold them up close, you can’t make out any details. They might as well be ants glued to a base. You could glue the rump of an ant to a base and you could not tell the difference between it and the actual piece sitting on the table unless you looked really close. I’m completely serious. You could glue little bits of plastic or metal shavings to a base and at the 6mm scale, a Cyclone doesn’t look much different. Even the Invid, when in scale with Macross, are tiny, like the head of an eraser on a pencil.

Consider this: When we recollect Robotech® images, it is always by the era/Robotech War. In the anime and in comic books, all the figures from that era are in scale with each other. And they work fine that way when contained to just the Macross Saga or just New Generation. But when you combine ALL ERAs at the same scale, and put them together, Southern Cross/Masters Saga, New Generation, and Shadow Chronicles, the mecha are just plain tiny at 6 mm.

Stand them next to the Macross mecha, and the later generations of tiny mecha suck from a purely visual perspective.

We’ve had some ambitious Robotech® RPG Tactics™ fans make, at their own expense, a Logan, Hover Tank, Bioroids, Cyclones and Invid via 3D printing, so we’ve seen them, and they are tiny, especially the mecha from the later Robotech® generations.

More important, I have seen RRT gamers who were absolutely insistent upon keeping the 6mm scale and ready to fight you over it — UNTIL they see the actual figures, in scale, together. Almost immediately and without fail, they suddenly have a change of heart and say, “I don’t know, maybe you should scale them up to 15mm.”

The Palladium crew and I are starting to think the same thing, that to have visually effective game pieces (and pieces that are fun to paint), they need to be 15mm. Here is why:
You need to ask yourself, what is it you want from these future game pieces?

- Are you looking for something fun to paint and pose? If so, you don’t want 6mm figures. There is little to paint and nothing to pose.
- Are you looking for something that looks cool on the battlefield? If so, you don’t want 6mm figures. They are just colored specs on a base.
- Are you looking for something that looks cool to put on your shelf? If so, 6mm figures are most definitely not it. They are just colored specs on a base.

Half the fun is painting these bad boys, and you’ve got virtually nothing or little to paint on many of these 6mm scale figures. This has been driven home to me by several professional and amateur painters who have come up to me and Wayne with increasing frequency to point out that there is nothing to paint on a 6mm figure. Some have even shown us examples.

FYI: At 15mm, the later era Robotech® mecha and vehicles like Cyclones still look proportionately and appropriately small, but offer enough size to have good detail, be fun to paint and look great on terrain or your shelf. Again, a few fans and a couple of our painters have actually gone to the trouble to make and show us how this looks in scale.

So again, I NEED you guys to really think about what you want from these next generations of Robotech® pieces. If you want something fun to paint and have recognizable detail, I think 15mm is the way to go. PLEASE let us know what you think. Ultimately, we will try to provide what the majority (if not all) of you want.

Note: To me, the ideal solution is to offer both scales in each expansion pack or blister pack; a tiny 6mm and a 15mm mecha. HOWEVER, I do NOT know if that would be cost effective or practical depending on the method of manufacturing we use make them. I mean, why provide figures the buyer may not want and may never use, especially if it increases the cost of the pack. So please do NOT decide that is the solution. It’s one possibility Palladium will investigate. Assuming we cannot offer both sizes in the same package at a reasonable price, which ONE size would you most prefer?
Wave Two – by the end of 2015?
We want Wave Two out yesterday. Or even better, last year. That can’t happen. We are shooting for the end of 2015 and will do EVERYTHING we can to make that a reality. But as I hope you are beginning to understand, things are not always under our absolute control.

To be honest, we have been so savaged for the many delays and changing release dates in the past, that we are afraid to offer release dates or certain details until we are sure of them. That has resulted in fewer updates over the past few months. In fact, I have had several advisors tell me not to even say that we are trying hard for an end of 2015 release for Wave Two. But we really are. That’s what I want more than anything. If we can make it happen, we will. Again, going into all the reasons for the delays or why we might not be able to make a release date is excruciating and we are not going to put ourselves or you through that pain. We just aren’t. We will, of course, release what we consider to be reasonable information and data as we get it. And we’ll try to do so more often. PLEASE remember this is all a work in progress. Things change.

We hope that you realize Wave Two and all future releases mean money for Palladium and its partners, as well as a vibrant future for the game line, so if we can get product out faster we most certainly will! End of year is the plan. If we can do it sooner, even better! But no promises. And might it be later? Maybe. We don’t know yet. When we have a much clearer idea for a release date we will post it!
Until then, we have some cool stuff coming your way
We more than anyone know how murderous that wait for RRT Wave Two is for everyone. Well, we hope to soften the wait and keep you energized by doing a number of things that we hope will make it a little less painful and demonstrate Palladium’s commitment to Robotech® RPG Tactics™. In fact, we are dedicating a huge part of our time and focus over the next several months to getting RRT WAVE TWO finished by the end of the year (no promises) as well as the many things we’re listing below!

More online support with a basic set of the rules available in the PDF format – we just want to make some clarifications to the rules first. This should include paper miniatures to use to try the game out.

Additional factions and mecha cards, Force Cards, charts and other good stuff will be made available for free online in the weeks ahead. Carmen and others have been working on this material for awhile now. Unfortunately, we are all juggling other commitments, but we hope to devote much more time to making them available in the next couple of months.
Three new Convention Exclusives – Debut at Gen Con Indy, 2015 – and available to our Kickstarter backers online
See, we learn from you. We are releasing three new Convention Exclusives at Gen Con Indy, but are also taking measures to make sure YOU, our Kickstarter backers, can also get them without having to go to that particular convention or anywhere. Just a few clicks on the computer will enable you to order these and many other items to expand your RRT gaming experience.

Wayne has spent the last week working out the best way of making the 3 new convention exclusives (and other good stuff) available to our Kickstarter backers ONLINE. That means you do NOT have to make it to Gen Con Indy or whatever other conventions these items may be made available. And Palladium does not do many conventions. These exclusives will ONLY BE OFFERED at conventions AND TO OUR KICKSTARTER BACKERS. They are not being made available to retail stores. So you may want to talk to your friends who aren’t part of the Kickstarter and order some for them if they want any.

For ordering instructions, click here.

You will have to pay for shipping. That’s not much in the USA, probably around $6-12 per group of three (varies with geographic location). Our online shipping calculator will inform you of the cost, but it does start to get a bit pricey to ship to Canada and overseas, and purchasers outside the USA are responsible for any applicable Customs fees, taxes, broker fees and duty.
The manufacturer working with Palladium on these is legendary GHQ, right here in the USA. We’ve been talking with GHQ since March and they have agreed to manufacture our exclusives and help us offer a number of other Robotech® RPG Tactics™ items to our backers long before they are made available to retail outlets. All are cast in 100% Britannia pewter and will have the GHQ stamp of quality.

NEW Convention Exclusives – Must place your order by July 15, 2015

1. Miriya’s Super Valkyrie in Guardian Mode. We thought this was the perfect companion to Miriya in her Female Power Armor offered in 2013. A sleek, dynamic item. $22 plus shipping.
2. Breetai ready for combat. This is Commander Breetai in a suit of Zentraedi Heavy Body Armor. His right hand opened enough to place a weapon, Micronian or the severed head of a Valkyrie or other bit of wreckage. $22 plus shipping.
3. Grell’s Male Power Armor. Includes a Grell character card for use as a Malcontent. $22 plus shipping.

● ALL 3 RRT Convention Exclusives are being manufactured by GHQ in the USA. Most of you should be well acquainted with the quality of GHQ’s Micro Armour and attention to detail.
● All are cast in 100% Britannia Pewter by GHQ and each comes packaged on a Robotech® blister card.
● All 3 will be made to order based on what our Kickstarter backers want, plus 1,500-2,000 more for Palladium’s use as “convention exclusives.” The first convention where they will be offered is the 2015 Gen Con Indy. They may also be available at a couple of trade shows and the 2016 AdeptiCon.
● All pre-orders must be placed by July 15, 2015. Once we have numbers, GHQ will manufacture them and we will ship them as soon as they arrive at the Palladium warehouse, guaranteed. Since GHQ is the manufacturer here in the USA, turnaround should be quick, probably shipping at the end of August. GHQ cannot provide us with an exact date until they know how many they’ll need to make, so please get those orders in soon. These three new Convention Exclusives will be first made available at Gen Con Indy, while supplies last. As a backer, however, you can order them from the comfort of your home.

And because you didn’t get the chance before due to Palladium’s own lack of understanding, and the fact that we continually get requests from our Kickstarter backers for them, we will also be taking orders at the same time for the 2013 Max and Miriya Convention Exclusives. Available only to RRT Kickstarter backers and at select conventions. Orders must be placed by July 15, 2015. Both are 100% pewter.

4. Max Sterling’s VF-1J Valkyrie in Battloid Mode; a couple different poses are possible. $22 plus shipping.
5. Miriya’s Female Power Armor; a couple different poses are possible. $22 plus shipping.
MORE! Something NEW – first for you

Our teaming up with GHQ as a manufacturer in the USA makes all sorts of things suddenly possible, with quick turnarounds and release dates we should be able to hit on target – give or take a week or two, not months. And they require minimal time from Palladium, which means we can remain focused on RRT Wave Two and the big push to do much more AFTER the release of the RRT Wave Two items.
Earth Defenders Blister Packs
We have been working with GHQ and Carmen Bellaire with input from Mike Arnold and Thomas Roache to expand the range of combat on the battlefield. This should help provide more fun and options while we all wait for RRT Wave Two. Plus, these Earth Defenders are the type of vehicles and troops that gamers interested in the Macross Malcontents can also use to develop and play that faction. We have put together what we all agree are six fun Earth Defender Blister Packs.
Note: Like the Convention Exclusives, we are initially only making these items available to our Kickstarter backers and various conventions. Depending on your level of interest and input from our distributors and retailers, we’ll make these available to retail (probably at a bit higher price) at a later date.

Limited initial availability. We are making numbers to satisfy only what YOU order, plus some small additional percentage as tournament prizes, displays, promotion, some reorders by Kickstarter backers, and similar uses before we decide to also make them available in retail. That means you have a limited window of time to make your acquisitions.

Taking initial orders for Earth Defender Packs NOW through July 15, 2015.

1. Apache Combat Helicopter (1) – Includes flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping.
2. A-10 Warthog Jet (1) with big gun for ground attack, plus flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack.
3. T-55MV Tanks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10.
4. Cougar 6x6 APCs (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping.
5. Convoy Trucks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping.
6. Infantry Troops (8 troops per base for 24 or 32 total figs; some heavy weapons), 3-4 cards and 3-4 bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping. Note: The packs may cost more in retail.
7. GHQ is champing at the bit to make new Robotech® Macross Saga® vehicles (with their stat cards included in each blister pack), such as the Comanchero Helicopter, Cat’s Eye Recon and others in the months ahead. GHQ and Palladium can start making these available over the next few months, provided it is something you would like to see. Please let us know and we’ll jump on it. Cost of the Comanchero (1 fig) to Kickstarter backers: $12 plus shipping (1 vehicle per blister pack). Other vehicles yet to be determined. Note: The cost of all these packs is likely to be more when we release them in retail stores.

● The Invid could be coming soon to our RRT Backers. If you want us to, we are also considering releasing the Invid, Inorganics and Regent, later this year (or early next year?), along with the stats and a scenario book so that you have the Regent’s Invid as a new faction to battle the Zentraedi. This would be separate from the New Generation/Invid Invasion story line.
Why the Invid? Because it works with the Zentraedi forces already available with Wave One. The Robotech® Masters created the Zentraedi specifically to fight the Invid and to conquer other alien worlds! You already have the Zentraedi war machine, now you’d have the Regent’s Invid forces too as a faction to fight them. And the Zentraedi/Invid Wars predate the Macross Saga events of the First Robotech War in the time-line. It feels like a perfect fit! Like I said, we want to bring Robotech® to life and provide EVERYTHING you could want from this expanding game line. By the way, this was the suggestion of a Kickstarter backer at Gen Con last year, and I loved it. Cost yet to be determined at a later date. We need to know if you are even interested in the first place, before we contract with sculptors. If you are, we’d make the Invid faction available at a later date.
● You get it all first! All of these items are being made available to you, our Kickstarter backers, weeks and in many cases, months before any of it is ever made available at retail. It makes sense since you represent our core audience and most dedicated supporters. We hope you like the ideas as much as we do.
● We thought this would be a GREAT way to keep the excitement for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ strong, give you more to play with, and make sure our most stalwart supporters get first crack at some of the new stuff on the drawing boards.
● The idea to do this is based on conversations with a number of Kickstarter backers at AdeptiCon whom we talked with in confidence. (Thank you, fellas for keeping our secret and for your invaluable input.) And the addition of GHQ to Palladium’s growing range of resources and expertise.
● Best of all, none of this affects or slows down the development or release of RRT Wave Two items whatsoever. GHQ is doing most of the work, costs are comparatively small because we can manufacture to order, and being made in the USA, we can kick them out fast. There’s no waiting months and months for manufacture or shipping. And being made by GHQ, you know the quality will be top-notch.
● Harmony Gold USA has approved all of this. It’s just a matter of whether or not you want any of these Robotech® RPG Tactics™ items. Let us know. Order by July 15, 2015.
What else can you expect?

A lot. We have a great many plans for the future of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We will reveal them at a later date. Our top priority right now is getting RRT Wave Two into your hands.

Better communication and more support for RRT. We have always listened to you, but I hope we’ll be able to maintain better and more frequent contact on the Kickstarter page. I hope this conversation, news and items make you happy. We would have posted sooner, but we wanted to make sure we could come through with everything we are offering.

We’re listening and aiming to please. We hope you hang in there with us, because Palladium is dedicated to you and Robotech®.
And here's the original KS thread for reference:


This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2018/04/14 05:44:34

Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran

Toronto, Ontario

Oh wow, 2 years in and now we have that new thread smell.

Mmmmm, oh, wait, yuck, don't breathe that in too deeply guys.
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka

Sacramento, CA


Just wow.

Cant wait for Gen Con.

-Emily Whitehouse| On The Lamb Games
Made in au
Expendable Defender Destroid Rookie


I don't understand the point of all this, I suppose I'll have to wait for the next update, but it seems like big K is getting ready to throw ND under a bus, cry poor or both.

Made in us
Street Judge


I have tried to break the update up a bit so people can navigate it more easily.

Made in us
Fixture of Dakka

Sacramento, CA

Update part 2: First Blood is up now as well.

Highlights include:
fething Shocker - Mechs from completely unrelated series don't scale well with each other.

And a quest for more money.

-Emily Whitehouse| On The Lamb Games
Made in us
Street Judge


Some thoughts ... on Part 1

I don't think Kevin has a clear understanding of how and why this KS ran into trouble.

His narrative seems to be that PB was swindled or at least befuddled by Ninja Division. Keep in mind his lead in is all about how PB is so established and experienced. It's one thing for Kevin and others at PB to not understand Kickstarter or international manufacturing and shipping. But what is his excuse for failing to establish a partnership with Ninja Division with clearly-defined responsibilities and obligations?

Did Kevin really sign a contract with John Cadice that simply said "Ninja Division will handle everything from start to finish"?

I don't think Kevin has effectively re-started the conversation. This is a continuation of the same old blame game. I appreciate that Kevin and others at PB are truly fans of Robotech. Even if you don't like their games, looking through any of their Robotech RPG products conclusively proves that Kevin and by extension PB care a lot more about Robotech than simply wringing dollars out of the license. To me, there is no credible question as to Kevin's love of this property.

But his management of the project, up to and including this latest update, has not lived up to his passion for the IP. Sadly, this is not a fresh start so much as a re-run.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cyporiean wrote:
Update part 2: First Blood is up now as well.
I will stitch it into the OP.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 06:11:25

Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran

Toronto, Ontario

Edit: nevermind, I should've finished the update before posting. Nothing to see here folks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 06:04:35

Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut

SoCal, USA!

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think Kevin has effectively re-started the conversation. This is a continuation of the same old blame game.


As I was reading it, the whole time, I'm going WTF? Nobody at PB has the slightest clue or is responsible for the mess that has their name all over it?

For Part 2, I'm glad that they're trying to get Wave 2 out for Holiday 2015. That is about the only good news here.

As for the questions of scale for other RT stuff, I don't really care. I just want my Destroid Monster. If it's detailed and many pieces, that's fine, because I'm only building one, once, so it might as well look great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 06:15:05

Made in us
Street Judge


Some thoughts ... on Part 2

The scale debate seems to be over even before Kevin bothered to ask KS supporters about it. IMO it is obvious that Southern Cross and especially New Generation need to be in a larger scale. But of course this is not obvious to everyone. The real issue is, Kevin has clearly already made a decision here. It is IMO the right decision. It just kind of rankles that he's framing an attempt to explain the decision he already made as an invitation to discuss what the right decision should be.

That style is behind a lot of the troubles with this KS.

Similarly, here we have promises for all kinds of new stuff from GHQ ...

... but where is the evidence? Where are the scultps? Are they complete? If so, why not show them? If not, why not and when will the be done? If there are sculpts, are the molds ready? If so, where are the samples? Anything painted? If not, why not?

There may be very good reasons for not having any of this information to go along with the promises.

But KS backers don't know those reasons.

Explaining this sort of thing is called transparency. My take-away from Part 2 is this "re-started" conversation is probably not going to involve much transparency beyond "here's my decision and why I made it" despite the lip service to those of us who gave him so much money years ago.

Thinking over Parts 1 and 2, my overall conclusion is ...

Did anyone edit this update/these updates? I mean, someone outside of the same old confidants. My feeling is, PB continues to be a closed system and this update shows Kevin is not actually open to perspectives beyond his inner circle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 06:36:00

Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut


So he was apparently the unsung champion of low piece count models, yet we have how many parts on each model?

I sure as heck hope he's not referring to me as the unnamed potential partner because the Tomahawk I presented to him was only 8 parts, the defender 7, and the spartan would have been 6, the majority of the models I was proposing were under 10 parts. The only models that had a high-ish count were the battle pods and only because they have a ton of lasers. I could have gotten the production pod down to about 12-13 parts. How many parts are the simplest plastic kits?

Evidently Kevin feels all the early interest was exclusively generated by Tom and his dozen or so blog readers, certainly none of it had anything to do with the models I'd been promoting nor the face book page I organized that was actively being followed by over 2.5k people. Nice revisionist history Kevin.

Love the quip about research being crucial to everything, yet at every turn they are as wide eyed as a babe in the woods. Tell us again how much you researched the gak out of things when you were blindsided time and time again about the process then cry but we're only rpg book guys how are we to know?

19 pages of excuses and blame game.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 07:55:33

Paulson Games parts are now at:
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka

Sacramento, CA

I'd love to hear what's going on with the resin kits (ie the SDF1), it's not like there is crazy steel molding issues that need to be worked out for them. I think that by now Paulson and I could have easily cranked out 1 for each backer... Each.

-Emily Whitehouse| On The Lamb Games
Made in sg
Regular Dakkanaut

Am a backer. The two-parter just made me mad enough to have to comment on it.

What PB did right: They communicated -- that's one; they firmed a date for Wave 2, that's good. They are initiating discussion on the scale problem, that's good too.

What they didn't get right:

1. If they are really, really listening to the backers, then they should know that in their comms, tell them FIRST about the intention to deliver the rest of the deliverables. If the update has prioritized to say up front: "We are going to do our damn best to deliver by Dec 2015, these are our milestone dates..." I'd be a lot less angry.

Instead, we got the relevant in a small blurb buried in the wall of text, which in summary: "We are going to do our damn best to deliver by Dec 2015, but no promises." Not quite good enough, but something. Not reassuring at all, but at least a date.

2. Instead of a proper plan to move forward, we get a recap with a distinct whiff of "Not my fault". Look, from a professional standpoint I'm always willing to listen to the screwup stories, they can be very interesting... but not as the bulk of an update. From a corp-communications perspective, this is a major fail.

3. The whole sordid tale about the 3D file formats issue sounds more like somebody leading either ND, PB or both around by the nose. Something stinks in there, really.

Frankly I have no issue with companies having no experience with international commerce or wargaming, or kickstarters, everyone has to start somewhere. But... being honest about the mistakes is one of the biggest things to gain from this exercise, learning the right lessons, etc. I'm not sure that's being achieved here. Hence, I'm not sure the future would be any brighter.

4. With regards to the scale issue.. no surprises from anybody in the wargaming side I think. But, can they like get a proper strategic plan first? If, the company feel strongly that we should move towards 15mm, then why initiate the Invid-Zentraedi discussion? That'd lock everyone back into 6mm, unless PB wants us to rebuy all the Macross stuff that we have now, just in 15mm. Can they make up their bloody minds?

5. Asking us for more money: Ah duh. Not bothered; it's the job of companies to ask us the consumers for more money. Each of us just have to decide whether to toss money into it or not.

Overall: The update isn't great. The back story is good to have but I'd expect some backshots from ND in near future -- if this turns into another Dust the Kickstarter laundry session, I guess I'd have to break out the popcorn. There is a date for Wave 2, which is good, but very little assurance that it'd get there smoothly. Any discussion of future Robotech stuff is moot.

Personal opinion is that we'd get our Wave 2, and it may be sucky to assemble, but we'd get there. Beyond that, I'm not sure anyone wants to back for SC or Mospeda stuff, given the track record.
Made in us
Street Judge


 paulson games wrote:
How many parts are the simplest plastic kits?.
Regults are 15 parts not counting the base. By comparison a Glaug has 24 parts.

I don't mind the part count at all. To me, this part of the saga has been a non-debate.

Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander


Long story short:

PB thought they could kick back and do no work and rake in a ton of money. When they discovered they would actually have to do some work to earn that money, they fell flat on their faces. Then proceeded to get swindled by the Chinese with fake stories about how "simple" miniatures couldn't be done.

Oh, yeah - and they think we'll buy more stuff from them.

My favorite line

Palladium Books is an established company. Not some fly-by-night startup. We have been creating and publishing role-playing games since 1981. That’s 34 years, folks, and we have no intention of going away.

Yeah, ya'll are about as relevant and established as Radio Shack.


It never ends well 
Made in us
Street Judge


 Lynx7725 wrote:
they firmed a date for Wave 2
PLEASE do not leave this thread thinking that. PB did not actually firm up the Wave 2 release date. All we have here is Kevin's passionately-felt hope that Wave 2 might be ready by the end of 2015 ... and he took the trouble to say he posted that much (his hopes!) against the advice of his inner circle.
 Lynx7725 wrote:
They are initiating discussion on the scale problem
As I mentioned above, it really seems like Kevin has already had this discussion with the inner circle and come to a decision. The remaining "discussion" seems to be whether there is enough demand for 6mm stuff to include them along with 15mm kits ... which will create cover for delays and mistakes as Kevin is already talking about how this will be complicated and drive up costs. If these kits are so tiny and devoid of meaningful detail, one wonders how producing them will be such a burden. And if designing them and manufacturing them and distributing them will be a significant burden, then we arrive back at the decision already made: the rest of the Saga will be in 15mm. And that's not a very meaningful discussion, IMO.
 Stormonu wrote:
This bears repeating, honestly. Maybe there will be a Part 3?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 06:46:01

Made in sg
Regular Dakkanaut

 Manchu wrote:
 Lynx7725 wrote:
they firmed a date for Wave 2
PLEASE do not leave this thread thinking that. PB did not actually firm up the Wave 2 release date. All we have here is Kevin's passionately-felt hope that Wave 2 might be ready by the end of 2015 ... and he took the trouble to say he posted that much (his hopes!) against the advice of his inner circle.

Ok, let me rephrase that. They said they want to.. and then said no promises. So no, I won't treat it as a firmed date.

I'm more lenient than most here though, I'll just take it as a target date and move on.

Frankly, do I think PB wants to make an effort to hit that date? Yes.

Do I think they will hit the date? Signs point to no, since they never really displayed any positive project management capabilities to date.

Do I think Wave 2 will eventually appear? Yes, but don't hold your breath.

 Manchu wrote:
As I mentioned above, it really seems like Kevin has already had this discussion with the inner circle and come to a decision. The remaining "discussion" seems to be whether there is enough demand for 6mm stuff to include them along with 15mm kits ... which will create cover for delays and mistakes as Kevin is already talking about how this will be complicated and drive up costs. If these kits are so tiny and devoid of meaningful detail, one wonders how producing them will be such a burden. And if designing them and manufacturing them and distributing them will be a significant burden, then we arrive back at the decision already made: the rest of the Saga will be in 15mm. And that's not a very meaningful discussion, IMO.

Actually we know he had an internal discussion; reports out of the open house clearly indicates that they are thinking of this problem. I don't disagree with you that this brand of "discussion" is not really much of one, but from a house that's notoriously intractable in discussing anything, it's already a big step forward. I suppose what I meant was, "relatively speaking to previous PB conduct, this is a great thing".

What really really annoys me is that if they really want to do Invid-Zent, an area which I think has a lot of potential, they have to keep things at 6mm or those Zent mechas are going to go massive. Just imagine having to put together and transport Battlepods that are twice the height and dimensions, in order to fight 15mm fights. If they are thinking about rescaling, and thinking about this too, can they put the two together and consider the whole picture instead?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 06:58:12

Made in us
Street Judge


The issue I meant to point out is, the scale discussion is exactly as you said -- internal. What role do the backers actually play? Accepting the decision made internally and Kevin's explanations for it.

Made in sg
Regular Dakkanaut

 Manchu wrote:
The issue I meant to point out is, the scale discussion is exactly as you said -- internal. What role do the backers actually play? Accepting the decision made internally and Kevin's explanations for it.

Shrug. It's like with most company decisions.. If they are listening, then what the backers can do is to state their opinions calmly and rationally, and then they take it up internally again. If they are not listening, then me ranting about it won't do anything except drive my blood pressure up.

At least, PB opened the door a crack. I'll just drop a note at the Kickstarter and be done with it. Hey, maybe my opinion is in the minority and the majority actually wants something different...
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander


Well, scale change won't matter to me, I'm not buying any of it after this fiasco we currently have on our hands.

Which is a shame, if this thing had been handled better I would have leaped at all the stuff they were offering (especially Sentinel stuff, like organics).

But, if I were to throw out my opinion, I'd like to have seen the entire line resized at 12mm (or larger). Something on the size of Wizkid's Mechwarrior Dark Age cliks game (I think that's N or Z scale?) The current scale is TOO small to feasibly support both SC and Invid stuff, especially single figure cyclones.

It never ends well 
Made in au
Dakka Veteran

 Manchu wrote:
The issue I meant to point out is, the scale discussion is exactly as you said -- internal. What role do the backers actually play? Accepting the decision made internally and Kevin's explanations for it.
Maybe, like with last year's GenCon sale, they'll have another "vote". In that they've already made their decision, but they want the veneer of it being the backer's choice.

It's a tired old callback, but it's not as if it'd be the only one. In the Invid section,
You get it all first! All of these items are being made available to you, our Kickstarter backers, weeks and in many cases, months before any of it is ever made available at retail. It makes sense since you represent our core audience and most dedicated supporters. We hope you like the ideas as much as we do.
That they'd have the balls to say this again, even if the situation is admittedly different, just speaks to "We have learnt nothing whatsoever about communicating with our backers.".

Basically, for me, the project shows a woeful lack of planning. Mr Paulson was able to put together prototypes to show what was possible at the scale. That NOONE in the PB braintrust thought to do either the Tomahawk or Regult start to finish (design, prototype, mold production, test sprues), to see what was possible, and how it all went together, would have solved 98% of the design and integration issues. But that would have required a little investment. So feth that.

Let alone doing the most basic of checking into how shipping from China works. You don't need to be experts, and some lessons could be learned. But speaking to someone with actual experience, and most of those problems would have been solved, or minimised, instead of waiting until the crap was on the docks in China before realising "Oh crap, now what?".

Most of the rest was covered by other commenters. The TLDR for those who don't want to waste their time.
Ninja Division checking out the bus suspension up close, check.
Kevin an unheralded genius, check.
Kevin an unprecedented visionary, check. Twice.
Vague commitment to wave two, check.
Zero actual progress shown on wave two, check.
Option to give them money for stuff of varying levels of interest, check.
Exactly what I expected after 3 months of "soon", and hearing it'd be 19 pages? Check.

Seriously, I feel like the principal in that scene from Billy Madison.

"Mr. Siembieda, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Made in us
Been Around the Block

Wow... just wow... $22 for one figure is simply crazy. I'd have been interested in maybe paying $22 for all three poses of Max/Myria, but $22 for a guardian. Nutty.... Especially when all one needs to do make either character is simply paint them blue or red. sheesh....

I think much of the backers' angst could have been avoided with more frequent updates. I backed the Incursion game and the creators were wicked good about posting updates, good, bad or ugly, they were posting something. Just throw us a bone...
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut

This update was a sheer utter waste of time. I can't believe they actually wasted time writing this crap down

My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
Made in au
Screaming Shining Spear

Adelaide, Australia

Palladium are so bad they actually make GW look like Apple

Craftworld Yme-Loc Eldar ╬ Forge Fathers & Enforcers • Elves & Ogres & Nature & Undead • Deadzone • Dreadball & Xtreme • Mars Attacks!
Republique of France • Terran Alliance & Dindrenzi ╬ British Army & Wehrmacht (FoW) ╬ Robotech ╬ NorAm ╬ Ash and Oak & Scylla ╬ Ten Thunders ╬ Star Wars: Armada • X-Wing ╬ Shaltari & PHR

Databse of all my armies and minis 
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut

They're delusional is what they are. They think that after 1 year of delays, and then several months of NOT shipping to ROW customers, that suddenly a 'proper' introduction of Palladium is going to make things alright?

My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
Made in au
Dakka Veteran

Sining wrote:
This update was a sheer utter waste of time. I can't believe they actually wasted time writing this crap down
The worst part isn't that they wasted their time. It's that this was what they spent three months hyping and building towards.

Sure, they covered the obvious (the GHQ partnership). But while they omitted the even more obvious (actual visual progress of Wave 2), there's other things that they also failed to mention. They had a throwaway line on Adepticon and the Open House. Why no details from that? The former could be kind of excused as I don't believe it was an "official" tourney, but they did mention elsewhere that they spent a fair amount of time there. The Open House though, the inaugural tournament, the first one "hosted" by Palladium (at least as much as anything is "run" by Palladium), nothing. No pictures (not surprised), no winners, no reports on how it went, nothing. Kevin wrote mammoth posts on the Open House experience. And one sentence fragment in the Update is the totality of it for RRT.

The bar had been set so low for this update that it'd actually recessed into the floor. And PB still failed to clear it. Forar idly hypothesized a while back this may be some kind of performance art. I don't think it is, but for those who aren't completely emotionally invested, maybe it'd be better to believe it is. Cause with this Update being all they have to show for three months of work, don't expect things to get any better. This is Kevin's ceiling for quality/dignity/respect.
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut

I mean, does anyone really care about the GHQ partnership when we don't even have a timeframe for Wave 2 yet? Other than maybe this year?

If they can get the GHQ stuff out before Wave2, this doesn't bode well for their finances with regards to fulfilling the KS

My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut

I can just picture in a meeting someone shouting "For God's sake, if we were dealing with spin cast metal or resin, we could have produced these figures already. Why don't we just do that?"

So, as far as I can, the "I don't want to read two pages of rambling update" summary is:
1. The Plastic Production Disaster continues on its inevitable course.
2. The people responsible for the making new unit cards and the like are currently refugees from the PPD and are releasing stuff that people complained about not having when Wave One came out.
3. The PPD refugees encountered a band of roving spincasters who they convinced to produce a new set of convention exclusives, and a set of trial run vehicle models.
4. Someone, somewhere, pointed out that providing the models to the Kickstarter backers would both be a good test of market interest, and at least sound like a nice gesture to the fans that haven't been completely alienated.

What are the odds that they're going to have pictures of the models available between now and the pre-order deadline?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/07 10:51:48

Made in us
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey

Well... it's funny how much you can write without saying anything much of consequence. I guess those 35 years of experience on RPGs paid off big time.

The only three things of substance I think I get from that are:

1- We might get Wave 2 this year. Might. Probably won't. But MIGHT.

2- We need more money, so we're going to try to monetize you again, for some random gak at stupid prices. Who knows, maybe some of you suckers will bite.

3- We want to give the semblance of caring about what you want for the other Rtech eras. But we'll be doing them in 15mm (not that I personally give a gak, there).

As for GHQ's 1/285 stuff... it's quite funny how passing through the Palladium filter changes things:

1. Apache Combat Helicopter (1) – Includes flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (Same price... well, 5 cents less at GHQ)
2. A-10 Warthog Jet (1) with big gun for ground attack, plus flight stand, base and stat card. Cost: $10 per pack (Same price... well, 5 cents less at GHQ)
3. T-55MV Tanks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 (You get 5 per $9.95 at GHQ)
4. Cougar 6x6 APCs (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (You get 5 per $9.95 at GHQ)
5. Convoy Trucks (4 per pack), plus 2 stat cards and four bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (You get 5 per $9.95 at GHQ)
6. Infantry Troops (8 troops per base for 24 or 32 total figs; some heavy weapons), 3-4 cards and 3-4 bases. Cost: $10 per pack plus shipping (You get 108 troops per blister for $9.95 at GHQ)

So... yeah. Pretty sure I'll be buying from Palladium directly, yeah >_>

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 11:50:24

Made in au
Pustulating Plague Priest

Oh, feth off. Seriously, Palldium just feth off you useless pack of witches.
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