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Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

 master of ordinance wrote:

>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.

This.

 master of ordinance wrote:
he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

this cannot be for real!

No more than three tanks?

Bring three baneblade variants.

 jokerkd wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

this cannot be for real!

Sadly it was.

We both use home brews every now and again, just to add some diversity and some fluffiness. Unfortunately in recent months his have been taking a gradual curve towards this style. In this case the first thing I knew was when he was deployed and damn near raped half my army. In the end it did not matter too much as I succeeded in working around this and finishing off the rest of his force, sacrificing units to delay the monster for a turn at a time and in the end the only units left on the board where my three tank command squadron, the surviving Exterminator and this primarch level monster.
Apparently this was a play test to see how well he performed and if he needed a points boost at the end of it.

I think the problem is that he does not have an external balancing force. Where I stick my stuff on Dakka and listen to the feedback he has only himself to moderate the balance.

I know what I would say to someone who wanted to play home brewed made up Uber powerful character from with an already strong book and then asked me to tone down legit options from my lower tier codex. Bad words.

I had something similar with an Eldar player who spammed WS against my 6th ed DA. He didn't like my rwcs/rwbk and asked me to only bring one unit of either, not even one of each. I asked him to only bring one WS. "But that's my favorite unit. I build my list around it". So I bought more rwbk.

A gentleman's agreement only works if both sides act like gentlemen

 welshhoppo wrote:
No more than three tanks?

Bring three baneblade variants.

Sadly my only Super Heavy at the moment is my Shadowsword/Banehammer/etc.But yes, if these homebrews are there this is coming out.

Is he your little teen brother or something?

'cause if he's a grown up it's too much even for a power fantasy type player.

Anyhow, surprise Armoured Battlegroup for S&G

Tell him he cannot use his home brewed characters, first off.

Then tell him that you will bring a tank for every point of mastery level he has. Ten mastery levels combined? well, that's three squadrons of leman Russ!

Oh, and find a new friend to play with, if possible. This guy sounds like a tool.

Grimdark wrote:Is he your little teen brother or something?

'cause if he's a grown up it's too much even for a power fantasy type player.

Anyhow, surprise Armoured Battlegroup for S&G

Sadly not. He actually 4 years my senior.

Crazyterran wrote:Tell him he cannot use his home brewed characters, first off.

Then tell him that you will bring a tank for every point of mastery level he has. Ten mastery levels combined? well, that's three squadrons of leman Russ!

Oh, and find a new friend to play with, if possible. This guy sounds like a tool.

I dont really want to start an arguement, and it would be hypocritical as I do enjoy using my own two (A tank commander and a Commissar themed one)

However, the tank per mastery level thing is something I was already intending to do, the only problem being that I have run out of tanks... Though thanks to Warlords Games I can get more fast

He is actually a really good friend. it's only on the tabletop that things like this start happening.

 pwntallica wrote:
A gentleman's agreement only works if both sides act like gentlemen

This. It sounds like he wants all of his shiny toys, but not to deal with yours. Especially after agreeing to tone down librarians, and then bringing the conclave. I’d suggest a temporary ban on homebrew. Bring it back to the basic game. If he wants you to take less of something you are entitled to (tanks) he should respond in kind (librarians). Once you hammer out a way for both of you to enjoy the game, you can start tweaking it.

And if he wants to field his home-brewed demigod, make sure you are OK with the points, not just him. Ask for a breakdown of how he got to that point cost, and see if you agree with his reasoning. If he can’t give a decent accounting on how he got the points without a “I’m stealing a cookie” look on his face, go back and adjust things.

Two options (well, three, but "don't play him" doesn't sound like an option you'd prefer).

1) Tell him it's straight codex, no outside options for both of you. The codexes are 'balanced' (less so with the older AM vs. new SM), so they're geared towards a roughly even fight. (Why's everyone laughing at that?)

2) Next time you two come to table, and have lists prepped, tell him you'll be playing his list and him yours - but using his rules on tanks and psykers and home brew characters. Show him how 'fun' such restrictions are when on the receiving end.

Your friend seems to be a scrub. Good luck with him.

+1 to the "gentlemen agreement" issue explained earlier, you may demand some concessions from your opponent (i.e. "don't bring more than 3 whatever") if you're ready to make some concessions yourself. If he's upset by an IG player fielding many tanks, I'd suggest him to go and fetch some melta guns. Seriously, what does he expect? An IG opponent not relying heavily on tanks?

They come in squadrons?!?
Branch out into fortifications. See what you can find in the Stronghold Assault book. It was mostly written with IG in mind.

It's entirely possible to like someone without liking to play them. If you enjoy playing him, make it clear that the tanks=mastery levels rule will be in full effect, and if he says 'tough,' then so will you.

If you DON'T enjoy playing 40k with him, then just stop. I've had to tell friends before that we could still hang out, I just didnt want to play 40k with them, and it wasnt a big deal.

Try and help balance his characters. Homebrewed characters sound fun, but not when they're horribly powerful like that. I don't think the character you mentioned it anywhere near the power of Calgar or Logan Grimnar.

Imperial Guard have a heavy focus on tanks compared to other codexes. It's not entirely fair to remove what is one of the most important units in the codex. Continue to use them as is appropriate.

If the Space Marine player doesn't have a super heavy or similar, I would advise against bringing your own super heavy. They simply aren't balanced enough for normal games. If you resolve the problems with his OP characters then you should be fine.

Are these characters for roleplaying, for personalizing his army with a character he made himself, or are they intended to be overpowered and win?

If you guys are really good friends, you should be able to work out a way you can both enjoy playing games with one another. There do appear to be some hurdles, however.

First off, you both need to get over what you DON'T like about each other's army. You hate facing Psykers, but space marines can be pretty great in the psychic phase. He hates tanks, but you play IG. Sure, he could quit playing psyker units, but what are you supposed to do...pick an entire new army? People get into IG because they like tanks! The good news is you both have ways to counter the things you don't like. You hate psykers? Ally in a culexus assassin (almost mandatory these days). He's having tank issues? Space Marines have a lot of anti tank options...

Second, realize that non-tournament 40k is a game you play WITH your opponent rather than against. If you're going to stand across a table with someone for 2 to 4 hours, it behooves you both to try to kill one another in the nicest, most supportive way possible. Did he just down your Vendetta with a lucky snap-firing lascannon shot? Do your best to let him enjoy the moment! Be happy for him...it is a dice game, after all, and hopefully you'll get your moment in the sun as well.

Finally, unless you can somehow agree upon their power level / points cost without either side feeling slighted, I'd recommend getting rid of your home-brew characters. Not because I'm against home-brew, per say, but only because your particular story seems like it's heading towards an arms race that's going to end in bad feelings.

Good luck!

If he deploys a home-brewed nonsense character with+7 to every stat I want you to literally take a small hammer out of your pocket and smash his model flat. What a total jerk. Homebrew can be fun sometimes but that's just flat absurd.

simple solution....bring one tank....a home-brewed one, that seems to be allowed. Make it absolutely OP and ridiculous.

Make a home-brew Psyker for your guard. But instead of being a Psyker, he's a Null.

Meaning, he absorbs or nullify's any Psyker Warp-related powers occurring within his aura's area of influence.

Oh, his AOI is 36". Because why not.

This means all Psyker powers can only go off on 6+, and the roll to deny is done at a 3+.

Once during the game he can focus his power to completely nullify a character (wipe out both Psyker abilities and Force weapons.)

Forging the Narrative!

This tank is actually an Inqusitorial Cyclonic torpedo. Its my turn. I'm detonating it. Table flip.

Yeah I'd just stop playing him. If people get arsy over rules, get angry over dice rolls, complain about my list because they have had to remove a single figure when I've taken off twenty, or call my codex op whilst running every cheese tactic theirs has to offer, I never play them again. I've been known to shake hands and pack up on turn one. There are loads of other gamers and clubs around. If he asks why you've stopped arranging games with him, just be honest and tell him what's been bothering you.

 master of ordinance wrote:
...whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

Well, first of all, that character sounds as good as, if not better than, Lorgar (Word Bearers Primarch), and he costs 450 points with his psychic powers boosted, and he's still only ML3. I get that people want to create their own unique characters and such to personalize their armies, but they need to do so rationally, using preexisting rules as a template to gauge accurate points costs.

Simply put, if he gets to use units/models that he has made up on his own, then he does not get to enforce limitations on what you can use from an actual codex.

I've been in a similar situation with a friend who didn't like me using Leman Russes. You know what happened though? He bucked up and learn to deal with it. No offence but your friend sounds like a cheat, expecting a Guard player to severely handicap his army like that is ridiculous. Take as many tanks as you want and if he doesn't like it tell him to find another person to play with.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

I...this...go with option 3.

I've been a similar situation before, we had a guy in my FLGS who would come in and only play "normal 1850 games" against people. What that meant was that if you were playing him, you could only use models from your army's codex with no allies of any kind (meaning as a Tyranid player, I could only use units from Codex: Tyranids, nothing from Levithan, nothing from Forge World). Meanwhile, he would whine and back out of a game if anyone complained about his "super hero", a Space Marine model with T6, 6 wounds, 2+/3++, Mastery Level 4 on a bike. Way we dealt with him? I played his "1850 normal game" with 3 CA detachments with a total of 6 Flyrants and beat him into the ground with it.

Of course, this guy was not a friend of mine but if someone's going to whine like that, bring the pain on them. Beat them down with their own rules. For his formation bring a Clixsus Assassin and watch him bring those Librarians down.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Right you inglorious lot, I am having a slight issue with a friend of mine.
I play IG and he play's Space Marines. Now even though my codex is the weaker we do get some close battles.

The problem is that he is trying to limit me on the number of tanks I can bring. He keeps telling me that I can bring no more than 2 or 3 or 4 as he "hates fighting tanks" whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

For this Monday's game I made a gentlemans agreement that I would not bring more than three tanks if he did not bring more than three psyker levels (I hate fighting psykers).
He agreed, then promptly said he would be bringing that new Libraius Conclave formation with 5 level 2 Librarians. And told me it was tough.

So, here are the options:

>Go along with having my already bottom tier army neutered even further.
>He only specified Heavy Support Tanks, so bring a command tank and two escorts, a Thunderer and a Destroyer.
>Sod it, if he wants war, he gets war. bring many many tanks.
>Enter the Shadowsword.

So, he gets to make up rules (units he is allowed to take, or make up on the spot), and wants you constrained from playing up to the potential of the written rules.

Find a new friend. Heck, find a person who actually fits the definition of "friend".

Nevelon wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:
A gentleman's agreement only works if both sides act like gentlemen

This. It sounds like he wants all of his shiny toys, but not to deal with yours. Especially after agreeing to tone down librarians, and then bringing the conclave. I’d suggest a temporary ban on homebrew. Bring it back to the basic game. If he wants you to take less of something you are entitled to (tanks) he should respond in kind (librarians). Once you hammer out a way for both of you to enjoy the game, you can start tweaking it.

And if he wants to field his home-brewed demigod, make sure you are OK with the points, not just him. Ask for a breakdown of how he got to that point cost, and see if you agree with his reasoning. If he can’t give a decent accounting on how he got the points without a “I’m stealing a cookie” look on his face, go back and adjust things.

Thanks, this sounds like a really good idea. Going back to basics is something I have been wanting to do for a while now.

Carlson793 wrote:Two options (well, three, but "don't play him" doesn't sound like an option you'd prefer).

1) Tell him it's straight codex, no outside options for both of you. The codexes are 'balanced' (less so with the older AM vs. new SM), so they're geared towards a roughly even fight. (Why's everyone laughing at that?)

2) Next time you two come to table, and have lists prepped, tell him you'll be playing his list and him yours - but using his rules on tanks and psykers and home brew characters. Show him how 'fun' such restrictions are when on the receiving end.

+1 again for pure Codex. Given that I only field two homebrews and they are only minor parts of my army I am more than happy with this, and it should give us time to balance things out.

I also like the idea of swapping armies, it would be nice to be doing the hammering for once, rather than getting hammered

Colehkxix wrote:Try and help balance his characters. Homebrewed characters sound fun, but not when they're horribly powerful like that. I don't think the character you mentioned it anywhere near the power of Calgar or Logan Grimnar.

Imperial Guard have a heavy focus on tanks compared to other codexes. It's not entirely fair to remove what is one of the most important units in the codex. Continue to use them as is appropriate.

If the Space Marine player doesn't have a super heavy or similar, I would advise against bringing your own super heavy. They simply aren't balanced enough for normal games. If you resolve the problems with his OP characters then you should be fine.

Are these characters for roleplaying, for personalizing his army with a character he made himself, or are they intended to be overpowered and win?

Didnt think of helping him, thanks for that one. I have been hinting that he should get a Dakka account and post them here... Maybe it is time to suggest it fully?

Aye, thanks for the confidence boost, I will continue to do so

I wont bring a SH vehicle.... Provided no demigod characters are fielded. That is a personal promise I have made to myself.

I am honestly not sure, the back story of the above mentioned one was literally "He lives in space and is the lord of it". Fluff does seem minimal but I do want to restrain myself from crying WAAC at everything.

Voidwraith wrote:If you guys are really good friends, you should be able to work out a way you can both enjoy playing games with one another. There do appear to be some hurdles, however.

First off, you both need to get over what you DON'T like about each other's army. You hate facing Psykers, but space marines can be pretty great in the psychic phase. He hates tanks, but you play IG. Sure, he could quit playing psyker units, but what are you supposed to do...pick an entire new army? People get into IG because they like tanks! The good news is you both have ways to counter the things you don't like. You hate psykers? Ally in a culexus assassin (almost mandatory these days). He's having tank issues? Space Marines have a lot of anti tank options...

Second, realize that non-tournament 40k is a game you play WITH your opponent rather than against. If you're going to stand across a table with someone for 2 to 4 hours, it behooves you both to try to kill one another in the nicest, most supportive way possible. Did he just down your Vendetta with a lucky snap-firing lascannon shot? Do your best to let him enjoy the moment! Be happy for him...it is a dice game, after all, and hopefully you'll get your moment in the sun as well.

Finally, unless you can somehow agree upon their power level / points cost without either side feeling slighted, I'd recommend getting rid of your home-brew characters. Not because I'm against home-brew, per say, but only because your particular story seems like it's heading towards an arms race that's going to end in bad feelings.

Good luck!

Thanks, ill need it

I dont actually have any problems with him fielding psykers though when there are 20+ levels on the table in a 2000 point army it does get frustrating. I am quite happy to accept that his army does psykers and other stuff that my army does not.
In all honesty I am against these restrictions and would gladly play without him, the afore mentioned Gentlemans agreement was just an attempt to balance things out a bit, and make it fair for me as well as him.
The fact is I need my tanks, they are one of the few viable units in my current codex and limiting them is like presenting me with an 'I Lose' button and expecting me to smile and press it.

The Homebrews armsrace.... I cant say it has not been tempting, but that is a path that I want to avoid. Nothing good can come of it. Getting rid of them does seem the most viable option right now.

bullyboy wrote:simple solution....bring one tank....a home-brewed one, that seems to be allowed. Make it absolutely OP and ridiculous.

Mr.Omega wrote:This tank is actually an Inqusitorial Cyclonic torpedo. Its my turn. I'm detonating it. Table flip.

please do not tempt me

Tannhauser42 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
...whilst he brings these home brewed characters and units that are so bloody OP that they take my entire army to kill - to give you an example he deployed a home brewed character last time that was 270 points had 7+ to all of his stats, murdered anything he got close to him, had FNP, IWND, etc and a 2+/3++ save. And was a level 4 psyker. Who picked his spells.

Well, first of all, that character sounds as good as, if not better than, Lorgar (Word Bearers Primarch), and he costs 450 points with his psychic powers boosted, and he's still only ML3. I get that people want to create their own unique characters and such to personalize their armies, but they need to do so rationally, using preexisting rules as a template to gauge accurate points costs.

Simply put, if he gets to use units/models that he has made up on his own, then he does not get to enforce limitations on what you can use from an actual codex.

Aye, as soon as I saw the stats I knew I was facing a primarch level character. Sadly by then it was too late to do anything about it.

Signet-Powers wrote: I've been in a similar situation with a friend who didn't like me using Leman Russes. You know what happened though? He bucked up and learn to deal with it. No offence but your friend sounds like a cheat, expecting a Guard player to severely handicap his army like that is ridiculous. Take as many tanks as you want and if he doesn't like it tell him to find another person to play with.

Thank you, this is exactly how I feel. In all honesty if he wants me to change my list on the night I know of two others whom are going and are good opponents to face. And I will happily face down Wolves and GK instead.

Its never too late to say no to beard.

Stop playing him if he's going to be a douchebag about it. Simple as that. Otherwise, take whatever you want. Additionally, look at his army list, including any "homebrewed" characters before starting the match. If it seems overpowered compared to other in game characters at that point level, demand he up the points or not use the homebrew.

Wonder if he will agree to proxy say a warlord titan ;-)