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To me this is crystal clear, but some of my friends are unconvinced.

If a model can take the same weapon 2 times, does it get a number of attacks equal to the sum of the attacks of each weapon (or in this case, twice the number of attacks, since the model is equipped with two identical weapons)?

Say you have chaos warriors: they have the option to take 2 "chaos close combat weapon"; its profile grants 2 attacks. Since by the rules a model must attack with all the weapons it is equipped with, and each weapon grants 2 attacks, I'd say a chaos warrior so equipped attacks 4 times. Which is the same mechanism that allows dragons to attack with bite and claws, and a glade lord to attack with sword and spear.

The rebuttal is based on 2 objections:

1. a dark elf dreadlord equipped with 2 exile blades would get 12 attacks. Obviously much better than other loadouts.
2. a dark elf dreadlord has a rule called "exile blades" which says he gets to reroll results of 1 when he rolls to hit.

I fail to see how these 2 points imply that you get less attacks, but I wrote them here to give you a complete picture.

Your opinion?

Vetril does the chaos warrior weapon that you can take two of have any special rule applied to it if you take a second one?

All of the weapons I have seen able to take in pairs have given a special rule advantage for doing so rather than adding attacks. For this reason, i thought the special rule itself was the benefit of the second weapon alone. Starts to seem a bit crazy if you double the attacks as well as hand out the special rules... I doubt other weapons wielded alone would be a valid choice in that circumstance.

I would say that if there are special rules regarding any weapon that is dual-wielded, that rule is the benefit for dual wielding. I dont think the intent was to double attacks. The wording for models attacking with different weapons explicitly states which ones you can use together in the same phase and which ones cannot be used with another weapon.


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Furthermore, it doesnt state anywhere that models with two of the same weapon double their attacks for that weapon profile, which would have easily fit in the four pages if it was intended to be there.

However if there was a dual wielded weapon that had no special rule attached to it for dual wielding i would say you have a point.


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In the case of the dreadlord, the rule says that if you choose to carry two blades you get rerolls of 1 on to hit rolls. I believe that is the sole intended benefit, that's the bonus rule you get for equipping two swords.

Also, with other units that have the same loadout options (roughly) rerolls of 1 to hit and reroll failed saves are commo.ly the two choices available, suggesting that gw wants you to choose between those two benefits multiple times, even though the amount of attacks you would get would be different for all those units if it was played your way. It would be strange if they valued the decision between double swords and sword and board the same across these vastly different weapons, especially when one takes weapon stats other than attacks into the equation.


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In the case of the chaos warriors, their shields are better, but the benefit to having a second sword is the same rerolls of 1's to hit. Personally I would go with sword and board for those guys, but i dont think the attacks double as well as gain the special rule.

Maybe someone else has reasons to think/support the other way of playing?

Where this would get silly is orcs with two choppas... Nothing could survive a blob of 50 orks if they doubled their attacks as well as reroll 1's.

However, the rules seem clear to me:

COMBAT PHASE
[...]
Step 2: Each model in the unit attacks with all of the melee weapons it is armed with (see Attacking).

ATTACKING
[...]
The number of attacks a model can make is determined by the weapons that it is armed with.
[...]
melee weapons can be used in the combat phase. The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks
characteristic for the weapons it can use.

Might be unintended, but it's worded very specifically, which makes me think it's actually designed to work this way.

12 attacks from a dreadlord seem scary, but it boils down to roughly 4 wounds before saves are made.

Yeah, after reading the rules explicitly, i would say this is a bit of a conundrum. It really is very vague how they want you to treat the inclusion of the duplicated weapon. Do they want it to confer the special rule only, like a piece of wargear or do they want you to attack with it as if it was an actual second weapon... Hmm..

Would be nice if they, you know, told you this in the rules or something. How to resolve attacks with dual weapons seems like an important rule..

After your rules quotes the only things i question are whether it completely invalidates other weapon options and also why they would choose to write it this way, as if it just conferred a special rule and make no other specific mention of what to do. Also it seems strange to drastically increase the force multiplication a second weapon gives you in comparison to their other games, but AoS is a different beast altogether..

Would be nice to hear several players' opinions on this.

Edit: also i agree that it specifically states the model attacks with the weapons it's equipped with.. But the format and wording on the warscrolls makes it confusing. Are they treating it as another equipped weapon or a piece of wargear to confer the special rule?

A dragon has 2 weapons, the Maw and the Claws. It attacks with both and each weapon has its number of attacks, so that seems to confirm my point.
There's confusion regarding other weapons such as the "Sacrificial Knives" used by witch elves, but really that's 1 weapon which happens to represent a pair of daggers (and thus it has a plural name, akin to the dragon's claws).
For me it was quite obvious, since I play wood elves and glade lords can be armed with a sword and a spear (there's a model dual wielding those), with no rules that give rerolls. There would literally be no advantage in having two weapons, in that case.


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Now I think that there's plenty of small rules which might have gone unnoticed by some.
For example, I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't realized that wardancers get their normal save AND a 6+ "ward save".

Except that the spear would let you attack an extra inch away, right? And perhaps has a different rend or damage value? Or is it that he can have two spears or two swords as well, in which case they dont give any benefit to that loadout at all?

I see the added range of a spear as a benefit, however if he can be equipped with two swords or two spears and it does nothing in terms of special rules, that would just about seal it for me.

He could however in my interpretation attack with both the sword and spear, as they are two seperate weapons he is equipped with like a daemon prince's sword and malefic talons. I dont think he is dual wielding spears or swords in that situation but rather wielding a sword and spear.. Can he choose two swords or two spears instead? Are there special rules for those loadouts if they exist?

The spear is actually better than the sword at everything - range 2 instead of 1, wounds on 3+ instead of 4+, and -1 rend instead of -.
The thing is: if you don't get to use the sword attacks, why give the option to use a sword AND a spear? If you can get the attacks from only one weapon, you can use the spear, which is always better than the sword.
But then, why have the sword at all, if you only use the spear?

The glade lord can use a sword (and a bow), a sword and a spear, or a greatsword. None of these combinations gives him special rules.

They are two different weapons, you would always attack with both unless the sword is out of range. All of his loadouts are to carry two different weapons which gives him the privilege of toting two weapon profiles to use. Quite a few daemon models have the same situation of two seperate Weapons and the rules allow you to attack with the weapons you are equipped with. My point of contention is that in the case of wielding duplicates of weapons i have never seen a case in a warscroll where you have the option to do so, yet recieve no benefit, which would imply that your interpretation is correct of it so existed.

However because it gives a benefit in the form of a special rule, it causes me to believe the special rule is the benefit whereas a second different type of weapon (which is much rarer, to support my point) gives you the ability to use both profiles when within 1", or perhaps at leadt one profile up to 3" away.

As for the dreadlord getting 12 attacks, my theory is that having 6 attacks on the exile blade is a mistake: I guess they originally had a weapon for the dreadlord that represented 2 swords, and they called it "Exile Blades" - giving 6 attacks, which is twice the attacks you get normally.
Later on, they might have wanted to give the option to use a sword with a shield, but didn't want to introduce a new weapon.
So, they edited the Exile Blades profile to make the weapon a single sword: "we'll write in the description that you can take 2", they might have thought - but they forgot to halve the attacks.

Basically, our debate is over whether gw intended us to treat duplicates of the same weapon the same as two different weapons and grant them a second profile with which to attack or not. Seeing as how two different weapons benefit you in the sense that you get to attack two different ways and the duplicate weapon scenario benefits you in terms of granting rerolls, it is difficult if not impossible to know if they want you to grant a profile or confer the special rule, or both.

However, the special rule that grants the rerolls doesn't say it replaces the general rules - and those say that you attack with all weapons; so logically if you have two swords, you attack with both.
For me this mechanic would be irrelevant, since my models don't use 2 instances of the same weapon: they either use two different melee weapons, or one weapon which is already a pair of daggers/swords/whatever.
For my opponents it would be a bonus, though, and I am convinced they are supposed to benefit from it, according to the current rules.

No, I think Exile Blade is meant to be 6 attacks. 3+/4+/-/1 is the offensive power of a basic infantry model (in fact, I was trying to compare it to Gors and Orcs, but even they get rend -1)

That's exactly the offensive power of 6 Dwarf warriors. (ignoring things like rerolls from wielding 2), which is extremely unimpressive.

Did the math: Dual Exile Blades result in .4 average damage (somebody check my math here, because I have to have messed up somewhere). A Chill blade results in an average of 2.6 with -1 rend.

Don't ever take Exile Blades, let alone 2.

I actually think 6 is the intended number for a single exile blade as well as two... But two gives you rerolls. 3 attacks would be pretty sub par with that statline. It gives you twice the attacks of the spear... If it was only 3 attacks why would anyone ever take a single exile blade?

Maybe my reading of the rules is skewed by the fact that I am a programmer - for me, two identical instances of one thing are not the same object.

Using one Exile Blade allows one to use a shield - or carry a crossbow, granting a ranged attack.

But so does using one tyrant lance. Which if the attacks of exile blade was 3, would make using the blade xompletely pointless.


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I understand where youre coming from based on reading the rules and i feel that its gw fault for bring so vague. It could have been spelled out clearly. You are right, two of the same object arent the same object. However, two of the same sword still forces you to attack the way that oneweapon was intended, it just gives you a slightly better chance of parrying or swatting away defences and scoring a hit, which is what i.think the special rule is emulating. Comparitively, if one has a sword and spear like the glade lord, his fighting style instantly has changed, and the two weapon profiles would come into play in real life as he thrusts with the spear until the enemy gets close and lets loose with his sword.

RAW is fethed in this circumstance.. Everything im saying is just based on the math and formatting of the rules and stats in question. I'm really just looking at what was most likely intended.

You do have a point though - a lord hitting with the combined might of 6 dorfs is not really impressive. 12 attacks in exchange for a better save are probably not even worth it.

...Which supports my interpretation?

Edit - I practice historical european martial arts, and I train with 3 types of bladed weapons. Don't overthink it, using 2 swords is completely different from using one - it changes everything.

I'm sure it does, i have no background in martial arts whatsoever, haha. I was just referring to the type of damage caused by the weapons still being the same whereas the two seperate weapons scenario gives you possibly two "types" of damage to deal like a weapon profile, which combined could possibly be more deadly than doubling up on one damage type.

Y'know, like a dude with a mace and short sword. Two short swords will slash or stab, but with a mace you can club to break defenses and then stab or slash, maximizing damage when your opponent has lost his footing, and forcing him to brace fora large blunt impact rather than attack you or parry your sword.

Really though, im no official on the rules haha. I honestly dont know how it's supposed to work.just explaining my interpretation.

I wish it was clear-cut. In the rulebook. That would be nice.


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It would be kinda easy to find out. Run some units in perpetual combat with other units, and see which makes more sense for damage output with all other things considered (like the dreadlord's mount attacks).

Seems like it could have been done for us, though.

This is another example of GW having rushed and generally not thought through these rules, especially regarding equipment, reinforcing the fact that AoS is a poor ruleset. As such, there really is no clear answer here and people will naturally fall into two camps:

RAW - I can see where you're coming from, Vetril. An exile blade has 6 attacks and thus if you have two blades each dishing out 6 attacks it makes sense that the model will have 12 attacks. As it is the weapon, not the model, that has the attacks (another silly rule on GW's part) I think it'll be very hard for someone to prove you wrong in the rules. But...

RAI - I think, like you say, it is pretty ridiculous that a dreadlord could have 12 attacks when the other options are no way near this kind of power level. I think RAI is most likely that having two of the same weapon does not double your attacks and that this is how most people will play it. However, like I say, there's really nothing to prove this is the case.

 The Shadow wrote:
This is another example of GW having rushed and generally not thought through these rules, especially regarding equipment, reinforcing the fact that AoS is a poor ruleset. As such, there really is no clear answer here and people will naturally fall into two camps:

RAW - I can see where you're coming from, Vetril. An exile blade has 6 attacks and thus if you have two blades each dishing out 6 attacks it makes sense that the model will have 12 attacks. As it is the weapon, not the model, that has the attacks (another silly rule on GW's part) I think it'll be very hard for someone to prove you wrong in the rules. But...

RAI - I think, like you say, it is pretty ridiculous that a dreadlord could have 12 attacks when the other options are no way near this kind of power level. I think RAI is most likely that having two of the same weapon does not double your attacks and that this is how most people will play it. However, like I say, there's really nothing to prove this is the case.

Did the math: Dual Exile Blades result in .4 average damage (somebody check my math here, because I have to have messed up somewhere). A Chill blade results in an average of 2.6 with -1 rend.

Don't ever take Exile Blades, let alone 2.

So if you get 12 attacks, make that .8 average damage... compared to 2.6 with -1 rend...

I'd say the Chill Blade is pretty close to that kind of power level

For the orginal question of taking two hand weapons on a chaos warrior:

-The warscroll tells you exactly what you get when you do that. You may re-roll to hit rolls of a 1. This is a common bonus for two weapons. Other races might have other things.
-The weapons that you use are all listed on the profile, those are what you use. Some of the options on the far left then give you a bonus which might be extra attacks, re rolls, etc.

Originally I played this as doubling the attacks though looking at the Dwarf Dragon Slayer again the stat line states "Runic Axes" plural which would imply that the 6 attacks is for both together. And in this case your choosing between 6 damage 1 attacks or 3 damage D3 attacks which are roughly compairable.

Now the Dreadlord scroll just says "Exile Blade" singular because he can choose to have 1 or 2 blade which of course screws things up a bit!

I'm personally leaning towards it being you still only get 6 attacks even with a pair of weapons.

Though ultimately we shouldn't be worrying ourselfs with the exact interpresttation of these current warscrolls as they are just place holders. While GW have clearly put a lot of time into creating new rules for nearly every exisiting model they're also not going to have spent too much time play testing them. Maybe something to revisit if we find a similar set of weapon options with the new model's warscrolls.

It seems pretty clear.

They give the stats for the Dreadlords exile blade.

They give a special rule for using 'Exile Blades", like many other examples of using two weapons, you can re-roll 1's.

 mikhaila wrote:
For the orginal question of taking two hand weapons on a chaos warrior:

-The warscroll tells you exactly what you get when you do that. You may re-roll to hit rolls of a 1. This is a common bonus for two weapons. Other races might have other things.
-The weapons that you use are all listed on the profile, those are what you use. Some of the options on the far left then give you a bonus which might be extra attacks, re rolls, etc.

This exactly. You are told in the rules that taking multiples of the same weapon type grant you rerolls. Doubling your attacks and taking rerolls is a bit much.

While I agree that using 2 exile blades grants a dreadlord rerolls, I'd also like to point out that nowhere it does say that you get to ignore the general rules - which clearly say your model must attack with all its weapons. Attacking has a precise meaning within the rules and it describes how many attacks you roll when you are using a weapon.
If you think 12 attacks are too much I have no problem letting you have 6, but imho you are houseruling.
I'll run some numbers today to see if the weapon loadout is grossly out of line.

you should read the orc warscrolls

savage orc warboss: granite choppa 7 attacks, 2x granite choppa = reroll failed hit rolls => 14 attacks + reroll?
black orc big bos: deff choppa 6 attacks, 2x deff choppa = every 6 1 bonus attack => 12 attacks + ? bonus attacks
orc warboss: boss choppa 6 attacks, 2x boss choppa = 8 attacks instead of 6 attacks => wait what? only 8 attacks? stupid rule, the only orc rule i found that give more attacks for 2x same weapon

As PenPen points out, there are a lot of examples where a model may have two of the same weapon, and it spells out for you exactly what benefit that gives you.

The Dreadlord has such a rule, and does not anywhere say he gets 12 attacks.

The Orc Warboss is the one that calls it for me: it's the only time it explicitely states These Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

This means dual-wielding is generally pretty poor - a skaven warlord is the same - getting rerolls of a 1 with barbed blades is not even slightly as good as getting three additional (better!) attacks with a halberd. But then, since one CHAOS HERO warscroll can be either a Skaven Warlord with two barbed blades and no shield, or Archaeon The Everchosen, I think complaining that two of the weapon options for the Skaven Warlord aren't quite on par is a bit myopic......

The rules spell out exactly what you're supposed to do: attack with all the weapons you have. It's explicitly written. The fact that a unit has a rule that grants it rerolls when it uses 2 weapons does not mean that you get to ignore the general rules, otherwise it would have said so: "instead of attacking with all your weapons, you get rerolls".

Anyway, some math. I broke down the binomial distribution for both dual wielded Exile Blades (12 attacks and rerolls) and a single Chillblade, and then I calculated the probability to inflict X wounds before saves are made. The results:

Exile Blades

x | P(x)
0 | 0.3%
1 | 2%
2 | 7.2%
3 | 15.3%
4 | 22%
5 | 22.5%
6 | 16.8%
7 | 9.2%
8 | 3.7%
9 | 1%
10 | 0.2%
11 | <0.1%
12 | <0.1%

Chillblade
x | P(x)
0 | 17.6%
1 | 13.8%
2 | 17.4%
3 | 21.3%
4 | 11.7%
5 | 9.1%
6 | 5.8%
7 | 1.9%
8 | 0.9%
9 | 0.3%

The Chillblade is missing a 0.2%, but that's due to rounding errors since you need to perform additional passages since each wound turns into D3 wounds.

Looking at the numbers, to can see the Exile Blades perform better than the Chillblade (but not by much - usually by 1 or 2 wounds). What makes them strong is that they have a 14% chance to inflict 7+ wounds. By comparison, a Chillblade only has a 3.1% to inflict 7+ wounds. Will this be significant during a game? Unlikely, since you attack very few times.
Rending contributes to close the gap between the 2 examined loadouts, but I haven't looked into the adjusted probabilities. Still, rending means that a model is 16.6% less likely to save against wounds caused by a Chillblade.

Yes, the rules spell out exactly what you are supposed to do, and you are ignoring what it says to add your own interpretation.

The rules say exactly what number of attacks you get with an exile blade, and what you get with two.

You're making up the rest.

Mikhail, if you bothered to review the discussion, you'd see that I directly quoted the relevant rules on my second post. I'm not making anything up.