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We have been debating the Jink rule in the sense of blasts. The idea is you cover 2 units with a blast... would both of them be able to jink (if possible).

Arguments (against)

Shooting phase dictates that you choose a single unit as a target before selecting which weapons to fire with. This means you would declare a target before placing a blast marker... then the player would have the option of jinking. There is no way to target more than one unit or know how many units were going to be targeted. Therefore only the unit selected as a target is able to jink.

Arguments (For)

The blast is covering two units before it rolls scatter... therefore there are two targets of this blast. Blast rules are unique in that they are placed specifically over a model. Both units would get the cover save.


Please add your commentary below. This is for our local meta and we are having a heated discussion.

There isn't any argument possible, really. You can only junk when targeted. Being covered by a blast is not sufficient to state you are targeted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There isn't any argument possible, really. You can only junk when targeted. Being covered by a blast is not sufficient to state you are targeted.

This. The rules are pretty clear on this one.

RAW only the targeted. That being said, I think it's pretty TFGish to do it that way in a casual game. RAI seems like they should be given the option to Jink before pen rolls are made.

For tourney play only atm.

Blast describes allocating wounds against units that are hit as being against the target unit, though it's not necessarily then the case that once covered by a blast marker, a non-selected unit becomes selected as a target to fulfil Jink's requirements.

^ That only happens after the roll-to hit has been made. Jink must be declared before to-hit rolls are made, and so by the time the unit that wasn't originally targeted becomes a target, it is too late to jink.

Bojazz wrote:
^ That only happens after the roll-to hit has been made. Jink must be declared before to-hit rolls are made, and so by the time the unit that wasn't originally targeted becomes a target, it is too late to jink.

Blast weapons are explicitly stated as not rolling to hit.

It's not an interpretation I agree with, but given you never roll to hit with a Blast weapon, provided no other firing weapon of the unit has been selected and to hit rolls made, you could elect to Jink at any point in resolving a Blast weapon, presumably. Jink says nothing about actions you perform instead of rolling to hit.

Hmm. You got me there.

 Jimsolo wrote:
RAW only the targeted. That being said, I think it's pretty TFGish to do it that way in a casual game. RAI seems like they should be given the option to Jink before pen rolls are made.

This. RAW you shouldn't be able to Jink, but I'm willing to bet GW's wonderful rules writers simply failed to account for this scenario.

It seems to me that when firing Blast weapons there could be two points at which a unit becomes targeted; being selected per the shooting sequence rules and then further in the Blast rules when allocating against units with models under the marker (referred to as the 'target unit')

Considering no To Hit rolls are made, assuming no other weapons have been fired, can units then not elect to Jink at either of these points, and thus a 'secondary target' then too could in fact Jink?

 Mr. Shine wrote:
It seems to me that when firing Blast weapons there could be two points at which a unit becomes targeted; being selected per the shooting sequence rules and then further in the Blast rules when allocating against units with models under the marker (referred to as the 'target unit')

Considering no To Hit rolls are made, assuming no other weapons have been fired, can units then not elect to Jink at either of these points, and thus a 'secondary target' then too could in fact Jink?

It also targets a model between those two points.

 jokerkd wrote:
It also targets a model between those two points.

Absolutely. It'd be reasonable to consider targeting a model as also targeting the unit said model is part of, but you know how it can go

Hiwpi is always ask if they want to jink when i choose the target unit. No one has ever declined to choose at that point

iirc you have to get as many models of the target unit under the blast, so you can't target one guy next to the invisible squad and get more invisibles than the target squad. Only somewhat related to the convo, but maximising target models would negate the problem most of the time.

 mekugi wrote:
iirc you have to get as many models of the target unit under the blast, so you can't target one guy next to the invisible squad and get more invisibles than the target squad. Only somewhat related to the convo, but maximising target models would negate the problem most of the time.

That's the case with templates but not blast markers.

Technically this is correct.
Around here, we play that whichever models are touched by the blast at its initial location are allowed to Jink, but not after it scatters.

Trasvi wrote:
Technically this is correct.
Around here, we play that whichever models are touched by the blast at its initial location are allowed to Jink, but not after it scatters.

Then you also play that when a large blast scatters off a single model unit onto a densely packed multiple model unit all those hits/wounds get assigned to the single model, as the rules state assign wounds to the target unit?

Breton wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Technically this is correct.
Around here, we play that whichever models are touched by the blast at its initial location are allowed to Jink, but not after it scatters.

Then you also play that when a large blast scatters off a single model unit onto a densely packed multiple model unit all those hits/wounds get assigned to the single model, as the rules state assign wounds to the target unit?

Nope

 jokerkd wrote:

Breton wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Technically this is correct.
Around here, we play that whichever models are touched by the blast at its initial location are allowed to Jink, but not after it scatters.

Then you also play that when a large blast scatters off a single model unit onto a densely packed multiple model unit all those hits/wounds get assigned to the single model, as the rules state assign wounds to the target unit?

Nope

But it says target unit. If the Jinkers aren't targetted because of scatter, then neither is the larger group and thus can't have the wounds assigned to them.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
^ That only happens after the roll-to hit has been made. Jink must be declared before to-hit rolls are made, and so by the time the unit that wasn't originally targeted becomes a target, it is too late to jink.

Blast weapons are explicitly stated as not rolling to hit.

It's not an interpretation I agree with, but given you never roll to hit with a Blast weapon, provided no other firing weapon of the unit has been selected and to hit rolls made, you could elect to Jink at any point in resolving a Blast weapon, presumably. Jink says nothing about actions you perform instead of rolling to hit.

Jink is declared when a unit is targeted, regardless of blasts.
If you are the target then you can declare jink, if you are not targeted then you cannot.

I.E.
Bro 1: my vindicator is going to shoot at wave serpent A

Bro 2: alright, wave serpent A will jink

Bro 1 rolls for scatter and full scatters into wave serpent B

Wave serpent B cannot jink because it was not the primary target and it has passed the time to declare jink.
Its not TFG to say you cant redeclare jink once past the time to do so

I'd say no, the skimmer in question is being shot at, the pilot is jinking around, one several hundred metres away isn't being shot at and a lucky ricochet hits him, wasn't expecting it, wasn't jinking.

die toten hosen wrote:

I.E.
Bro 1: my vindicator is going to shoot at wave serpent A

Bro 2: alright, wave serpent A will jink

Bro 1 rolls for scatter and full scatters into wave serpent B

Wave serpent B cannot jink because it was not the primary target and it has passed the time to declare jink.
Its not TFG to say you cant redeclare jink once past the time to do so

This was my first shot on my first turn yesterday and it exploded the wave serpent carrying a seer council and basically won me the game it was awesome that's my story hope that helps

I would say no jink. You have to declare jink when targeted.

Make it cinematic - target 1 yells incoming, they jink, blast weapon takes a weird bounce and hits target 2, who were not ready for the strange happening.

Sadly it's a bummer for the jinker, but it happens. Keep on playing.

die toten hosen wrote:
Jink is declared when a unit is targeted, regardless of blasts.
If you are the target then you can declare jink, if you are not targeted then you cannot.

I.E.
Bro 1: my vindicator is going to shoot at wave serpent A

Bro 2: alright, wave serpent A will jink

Bro 1 rolls for scatter and full scatters into wave serpent B

Wave serpent B cannot jink because it was not the primary target and it has passed the time to declare jink.
Its not TFG to say you cant redeclare jink once past the time to do so

So why can Wave Serpent B not declare jink when, as per the rules for blast weapons, it has become a target unit? Does "being a target unit" for the purposes of allocating wounds and vehicle damage not count for "being targeted"?

That is the only requirement, with the restriction that no To Hit rolls have yet been made, and Blast weapons do not roll To Hit.

If you disagree please provide rules support, rather than just your opinion

I don't see how the "before any hits are rolled" changes the fact that you must choose when the unit is selected as a target.
If anything happens, whether rolling to hit or rolling scatter, you have failed to declare when the unit was selected as the target.
It's a point in the game that you dont get to just ignore and wait to find out if you even got hit.

"Selected as a target" also means that only the unit that was selected by the attacker as the target can jink

 jokerkd wrote:
"Selected as a target" also means that only the unit that was selected by the attacker as the target can jink

This is the sort of relevant point I was looking for, thanks. I don't have my book to hand so was unsure if the wording was being targeted or "selected as a target".

Does the point still stand however if you place the marker in such a way as to deliberately try to cover two different units? I would say yes, if the player is deliberately placing the marker such that the second unit would become a "target unit".

 Mr. Shine wrote:


Does the point still stand however if you place the marker in such a way as to deliberately try to cover two different units? I would say yes, if the player is deliberately placing the marker such that the second unit would become a "target unit".

It would certainly make a sensible house rule, but RAW i believe the second unit is not counted as the target until wound allocation. The attacking unit can only choose one target, therefore that is the only "selected target"

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
"Selected as a target" also means that only the unit that was selected by the attacker as the target can jink

This is the sort of relevant point I was looking for, thanks. I don't have my book to hand so was unsure if the wording was being targeted or "selected as a target".

Does the point still stand however if you place the marker in such a way as to deliberately try to cover two different units? I would say yes, if the player is deliberately placing the marker such that the second unit would become a "target unit".

And again you'd then have to count hits on the covered unit and apply that number to the original unit if you're going to claim they aren't selected as a target when it scatters over them.

Either at some point they are selected as a target, or they can't have wounds applied to them per the blast rules

Breton wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
"Selected as a target" also means that only the unit that was selected by the attacker as the target can jink

This is the sort of relevant point I was looking for, thanks. I don't have my book to hand so was unsure if the wording was being targeted or "selected as a target".

Does the point still stand however if you place the marker in such a way as to deliberately try to cover two different units? I would say yes, if the player is deliberately placing the marker such that the second unit would become a "target unit".

And again you'd then have to count hits on the covered unit and apply that number to the original unit if you're going to claim they aren't selected as a target when it scatters over them.

Either at some point they are selected as a target, or they can't have wounds applied to them per the blast rules

Who selects the second unit as a target?