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 jokerkd wrote:
page 370?

am i missing something?

Yeah I really have no idea what rulebook he's referring to.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
page 370?

am i missing something?

Yeah I really have no idea what rulebook he's referring to.

That would be the Interactive Digital Rulebook.
Sadly the page numbers are not the same as the printed version.
P370 covers random selection.

I have always had the biggest problem with Jink and the timing of the whole affair.

Too many times someone says I'm shooting at this, blam, dice get rolled and before I have time to think for a second its already too late. Now if I say anything... I look like jerk. That's not fair.

In this instance the rules are pretty clear. As to whether or not that's how it should play? Well... I hate to say it but this is another bad one. You could argue that both vehicles would see the shot coming and therefore be able to Jink. This is after all the premise of the rule, that and an innate agility. However one could also argue that target 2 did not see the incoming fire, but this I feel is less solid. After all if a unit can Jink, and they are able to do so, aren't they ready to take action anyways?

This may be one situation that you can actually use a roll off to decide.

If a blast would strike more than one unit that can Jink, or a model that can Jink that was not the original target , roll a d6 to see whether or not that unit may use Jink. If the d6 roll fails then the model did not see the shot coming and cannot Jink. If the d6 roll succeeds then the model may declare a Jink and resolve damage as normal, the defending player may then take a Jink roll as if they had activated the rule normally.

There, I think that would work.

I was just thinking, the Jink roll ought to be made right after its declared. That makes sense in that the jinking unit sees incoming fire and takes action to avoid it and thus if the roll succeeds the shot is said to have missed entirely. This also alleviates the OPs problem because the blast marker targets the Jinker, who then makes a Jink roll. If they succeed then the blast would be resolved as normal, simply discounting any hits that strike the Jinker. Then you could say that other Jink units hit by that blast would be unable to Jink, as they clearly thought the shot would land elsewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The latter also solves my problem of being to slow to shout Jink somewhat.

I'm shooting your landspe....

Jink! 4+ bam!

What was that, sorry?

Oh wait... I see now. The OP isn't asking about scatter he is asking about someone directly placing a blast so that it hits multiple units. I am assuming that we're talking about shooting down bikes here huh? Lol

Well in that case I would say that definitely if a blast initially covers more than one jink unit all units could declare a Jink.

This would have never come up if Jink had been left alone. Sure it was a backwards way of replicating that concept but it worked well.

 darkcloak wrote:

Too many times someone says I'm shooting at this, blam, dice get rolled and before I have time to think for a second its already too late. Now if I say anything... I look like jerk. That's not fair.

Both players are responsible for following the rules, If the attacker does not give you time to declare, (most people don't do it intentionally) you have every right to say something..... and take your jink rolls

 Mr. Shine wrote:


Instead of putting up irrelevant strawman questions, why don't you actually just simply state your disagreement?

As he was saying they were a target without being a selected target, you may want to familiarize yourself with the straw man concept.

I'm not sure which rulebook you're referring to, but the first line of Blasts (skipping the flavour text) states, "When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle."

Target models are not the same as target units, although it's safe to assume the target model you pick before rolling for scatter must be from the target unit per the shooting sequence.
[\quote]

so you're saying blast rules do start with picking a target like I said? Um. Ok, thanks for that I guess.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If you're talking about a "jinking unit" then obviously they must have been selected as a target and declared Jink or they would not be a "jinking unit". [\quote]

would jink-able have been more clear for you?

Then you've disproven your own previous post. Good job. [\quote]

I've disproven the post you weren't sure what it said? But you're sure it's disproven. Ok.

Random selection isn't the same as scattering onto another unit, though. [\quote]

Really? Scatter isn't random? The new target wasn't selected by the new template?

Well that's just it. If a player does that unintentionally and I call it that's fine, but if it happens a few times where the other player is genuinely forgetting and I keep saying oh right, Jink, that could be viewed as bad behavior on my part. Which I assure you is not the case!

We played a lot of 6th and not a lot of 7th, so this happens more than you might think.

Breton wrote:
As he was saying they were a target without being a selected target, you may want to familiarize yourself with the straw man concept.

You were rambling off about common English about rules relating to non-targets as if it were an argument against something else. Pretty sure that's a strawman.

so you're saying blast rules do start with picking a target like I said? Um. Ok, thanks for that I guess.

Yeah, no, what you actually said was that Blast weapons start off by stating they pick a target, and they do not, and no one is actually arguing Blast weapons do not select a target model. Once more you're either on about ground we've already covered, are not actually disputing or even discussing, or bringing in other matters that are not relevant.

Really? Scatter isn't random? The new target wasn't selected by the new template position?

Scatter is not 'Randomising'. Even a simpleton should recognise that distinction in a rules discussion.

Then the unit it was scattered over isn't able to be wounded? If it's not a target, you can't wound it. At whatever point the unit becomes a target they have the option to jink or not

Wrong again. Here, I'll provide the exact wording for Jink, with emphasis added:

"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink."

We already know a unit scattered onto becomes a target unit, but that's not the same as selecting it as a target. It's really that simple. If you disagree, please provide rules support and not just your opinion.

No, that's not what a straw man is.

You just said if you skip the fluff you select a target.

We know a unit scattered onto becomes the target? And how do we know that? When did the target change according to the rules?

As long as you RAW selected, I'll RAW target.

Ironic you mention rules support and not just opinion while trying to change the target of a blast with zero rule support for it. Keep reading blast. Allocate wounds to the target unit. Not once does it say the target unit changes. Or how.

Breton wrote:
And again you'd then have to count hits on the covered unit and apply that number to the original unit if you're going to claim they aren't selected as a target when it scatters over them.

Either at some point they are selected as a target, or they can't have wounds applied to them per the blast rules

And that is your incorrect opinion. Please supply rules support to state that selection must occur for the unit to become a target.

The Blast rules are sufficient to result in a scattered-onto unit becoming a target without being selected; they have become a target by virtue of being randomly (but not by Randomising, because obviously we all recognise that's a completely different and specific process!) scattered onto.

Selection does not occur, nor is it necessary.

Again, if you disagree, as per the Tenets of You Make Da Call please provide rules support to back up your argument, or otherwise state it is simply your unsupported and/or uninformed opinion.

Breton wrote:
No, that's not what a straw man is.

You just said if you skip the fluff you select a target.

We know a unit scattered onto becomes the target? And how do we know that? When did the target change according to the rules?

As long as you RAW selected, I'll RAW target.

Ironic you mention rules support and not just opinion while trying to change the target of a blast with zero rule support for it. Keep reading blast. Allocate wounds to the target unit. Not once does it say the target unit changes. Or how.

The originally selected unit is the only unit that can jink.
Blasts can end up targeting a different unit instead of or in addition too their originally selected unit because thats how blasts work.
Any unit outside of the original unit that is hit by a scattering blast cannot declare jink as it is not the initially selected unit
Jink declarations happen prior to rolls to scatter or wound, not after based on scatters.

 darkcloak wrote:
Well that's just it. If a player does that unintentionally and I call it that's fine, but if it happens a few times where the other player is genuinely forgetting and I keep saying oh right, Jink, that could be viewed as bad behavior on my part. Which I assure you is not the case!

We played a lot of 6th and not a lot of 7th, so this happens more than you might think.

I'd say there is a clear intelligent move to be made - if jinking was the intelligent move at this time - only TFG wouldn't allow you to take the rolls he didn't ask you if you wanted to take.

The correct way to play it as the attacker is to declare your target and ask if hes going to jink. It's also nice at this point to say - I'm firing with an ignore cover weapon. LOL.


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die toten hosen wrote:

Breton wrote:
No, that's not what a straw man is.

You just said if you skip the fluff you select a target.

We know a unit scattered onto becomes the target? And how do we know that? When did the target change according to the rules?

As long as you RAW selected, I'll RAW target.

Ironic you mention rules support and not just opinion while trying to change the target of a blast with zero rule support for it. Keep reading blast. Allocate wounds to the target unit. Not once does it say the target unit changes. Or how.

The originally selected unit is the only unit that can jink.
Blasts can end up targeting a different unit instead of or in addition too their originally selected unit because thats how blasts work.
Any unit outside of the original unit that is hit by a scattering blast cannot declare jink as it is not the initially selected unit
Jink declarations happen prior to rolls to scatter or wound, not after based on scatters.

Exactly. Another point to be made is that the decision to jink happens before the blast marker is even placed! Theres no way of knowing what others units might potentially be covered at this point. The most simple way to avoid this is to keep your units at least 2 1/2 inches apart...Jezz...how does this stuff even come up for you guys?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Well that's just it. If a player does that unintentionally and I call it that's fine, but if it happens a few times where the other player is genuinely forgetting and I keep saying oh right, Jink, that could be viewed as bad behavior on my part. Which I assure you is not the case!

We played a lot of 6th and not a lot of 7th, so this happens more than you might think.

I'd say there is a clear intelligent move to be made - if jinking was the intelligent move at this time - only TFG wouldn't allow you to take the rolls he didn't ask you if you wanted to take.

The correct way to play it as the attacker is to declare your target and ask if hes going to jink. It's also nice at this point to say - I'm firing with an ignore cover weapon. LOL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

die toten hosen wrote:

Breton wrote:
No, that's not what a straw man is.

You just said if you skip the fluff you select a target.

We know a unit scattered onto becomes the target? And how do we know that? When did the target change according to the rules?

As long as you RAW selected, I'll RAW target.

Ironic you mention rules support and not just opinion while trying to change the target of a blast with zero rule support for it. Keep reading blast. Allocate wounds to the target unit. Not once does it say the target unit changes. Or how.

The originally selected unit is the only unit that can jink.
Blasts can end up targeting a different unit instead of or in addition too their originally selected unit because thats how blasts work.
Any unit outside of the original unit that is hit by a scattering blast cannot declare jink as it is not the initially selected unit
Jink declarations happen prior to rolls to scatter or wound, not after based on scatters.

Exactly. Another point to be made is that the decision to jink happens before the blast marker is even placed! Theres no way of knowing what others units might potentially be covered at this point. The most simple way to avoid this is to keep your units at least 2 1/2 inches apart...Jezz...how does this stuff even come up for you guys?

I dont event know man, i ask myself that everytime i look in YMDC.
I think mostly because some people disagree with RAW and want to be backed up on it wether its true or not

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Breton wrote:
And again you'd then have to count hits on the covered unit and apply that number to the original unit if you're going to claim they aren't selected as a target when it scatters over them.

Either at some point they are selected as a target, or they can't have wounds applied to them per the blast rules

And that is your incorrect opinion. Please supply rules support to state that selection must occur for the unit to become a target.

The Blast rules are sufficient to result in a scattered-onto unit becoming a target without being selected; they have become a target by virtue of being randomly (but not by Randomising, because obviously we all recognise that's a completely different and specific process!) scattered onto.

. Really? They are? By all means, as your post mentions, please back that up with rules. Blast says scatter the template, count hits, work them out against target. In never says the scattered onto unit is the new target.

While you're doing that, please support your claim that models/units can be a target without being selected. I've already backed up my position that even randomized is selected, ergo selection does not require full controlled informed choice from the player. Can you find any (other undisputed) target function that doesn't require selecting?

Can you please tell me what section pg370 covers so i can find it in my book

 jokerkd wrote:
Can you please tell me what section pg370 covers so i can find it in my book

I think he's referring to 'Randomising' under 'General Principles'.

Breton wrote:
Really? They are? By all means, as your post mentions, please back that up with rules. Blast says scatter the template, count hits, work them out against target. In never says the scattered onto unit is the new target.

Actually the blast rules say scatter the template, units with models under the marker take hits, resolve wounds against target unit. Stop cherry picking rules and wrongly stating what they say.

Being consistent it's obvious they're referring to the unit(s) with models under the template as the target unit. It's RAW without trying to completely ignore the obvious context.

While you're doing that, please support your claim that models/units can be a target without being selected. I've already backed up my position that even randomized is selected, ergo selection does not require full controlled informed choice from the player. Can you find any (other undisputed) target function that doesn't require selecting?

Um... the Blast rules say so. Stop with the strawman; saying Randomisation is selection doesn't make blast marker scattering a form of selection. You're just simply wrong.

To help you stop misusing straw man - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Speaking of cherry picking, AGAIN where does the rule for blast say the target has changed?

Like pronouns referring to an earlier noun, there is only one target action (selected or otherwise) prior to assigning wounds/hits to the target unit. With only one unit being designated a target unit prior to the wound allocation step, that is the only place hits/wounds can be allocated to.

As you've displayed a less than strong grasp of straw man, I'm now forced to question your grasp of RAW. Changing the official target unit when you think you're supposed to, while not specifically being told/allowed to by the rules as written is RAI not RAW.

Breton wrote:
To help you stop misusing straw man - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

Oh, like trying to refute my argument on the basis that I'm saying Randomising isn't selection? You're arguing against your misrepresentation of my argument.

Speaking of cherry picking, AGAIN where does the rule for blast say the target has changed?

Under 'Blast Markers and Templates' in 'General Principles':

"Some weapons are so powerful that they don’t just target a single model or unit, but have an ‘area effect’ which might encompass (and often utterly devastate!) several different units. To better represent these circumstances, Warhammer 40,000 uses a series of different blast markers and templates:"

Target units for blast markers are those with models under the blast marker. It's pretty straightforward.

As you've displayed a less than strong grasp of straw man, I'm now forced to question your grasp of RAW. Changing the official target unit when you think you're supposed to, while not specifically being told/allowed to by the rules as written is RAI not RAW.

Great job at attacking the person rather than their argument, and bandying about terms such as "official target" when the concept doesn't exist

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Breton wrote:
To help you stop misusing straw man - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

Oh, like trying to refute my argument on the basis that I'm saying Randomising isn't selection? You're arguing against your misrepresentation of my argument.

Did you advance that argument? Then it cannot, by definition, be a straw man. A straw man would be if I were arguing you were wrong because you said bikes can't jink- which you didn't. See the difference?

Speaking of cherry picking, AGAIN where does the rule for blast say the target has changed?

Under 'Blast Markers and Templates' in 'General Principles':

"Some weapons are so powerful that they don’t just target a single model or unit, but have an ‘area effect’ which might encompass (and often utterly devastate!) several different units. To better represent these circumstances, Warhammer 40,000 uses a series of different blast markers and templates:"

Target units for blast markers are those with models under the blast marker. It's pretty straightforward.

then by all means quote the part of the rule that says so. At only one point does a unit become a target unit according to the RAW. When it's "selected" by the placement of the blast template.

As you've displayed a less than strong grasp of straw man, I'm now forced to question your grasp of RAW. Changing the official target unit when you think you're supposed to, while not specifically being told/allowed to by the rules as written is RAI not RAW.

Great job at attacking the person rather than their argument, and bandying about terms such as "official target" when the concept doesn't exist

Again, you're misusing the logical fallacy concept- this time of ad hominem. I didn't attack you personally, but your argument. I didn't say only and idiot wouldn't understand the concept - as has been used previously- I said your arguement to straw man was incorrect, and your definition of RAW was incorrect. Both of which are to the argument, not "to the man" as ad hominem is. You're claiming the change in target is RAW, but still have not ever pointed to the rules section that says the target changes.

All of which still boils down to my original point, if one is going to abuse a technicality over "selected" targets, the opponent should just as freely abuse the technicality of "target".

Lol. There is no abuse involved in what we are suggesting. It is quite clearly RAI. Being able to jink after the amount of hits is determined is clearly not.

I admitted very early on the the blast rule RAW says exactly what you say it does, but that RAI, reading the two blast sections, is that that is almost definitely not how it should be played.

Breton wrote:
Did you advance that argument? Then it cannot, by definition, be a straw man. A straw man would be if I were arguing you were wrong because you said bikes can't jink- which you didn't. See the difference?

No, I did not. I never said Randomising is not selection and yet you're arguing I'm claiming that's the case, so I'm sorry but that's exactly a straw man.

Speaking of cherry picking, AGAIN where does the rule for blast say the target has changed?

Under 'Blast Markers and Templates' in 'General Principles':

then by all means quote the part of the rule that says so. At only one point does a unit become a target unit according to the RAW. When it's "selected" by the placement of the blast template.

I just did, in the post you quoted. If you don't consider the rules for blast markers and templates stating they are used to represent the target of a weapon's attack is not stating that models/units with models under a blast marker are the target I'm not sure what would satisfy you.

Again, you're misusing the logical fallacy concept- this time of ad hominem. I didn't attack you personally, but your argument. I didn't say only and idiot wouldn't understand the concept - as has been used previously- I said your arguement to straw man was incorrect, and your definition of RAW was incorrect. Both of which are to the argument, not "to the man" as ad hominem is. You're claiming the change in target is RAW, but still have not ever pointed to the rules section that says the target changes.

Um, no. That was absolutely an irrelevant personal comment. "You can't even understand logical fallacies so I must necessarily question your grasp of this argument." Incorrect on both points, sorry.

[quoteAll of which still boils down to my original point, if one is going to abuse a technicality over "selected" targets, the opponent should just as freely abuse the technicality of "target".

Really? No abuse in putting the template over the tactical marine standing next to the biker so the biker can't get a jink save?

And to play your scenario out, as soon as the template is over a unit of bikers, even if it doesn't scatter, you're saying they shouldn't get a chance to jink, because you've already counted the number of hits by placing the template over one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:


I just did, in the post you quoted. If you don't consider the rules for blast markers and templates stating they are used to represent the target of a weapon's attack is not stating that models/units with models under a blast marker are the target I'm not sure what would satisfy you.

The part of the rules that says the target changes from the one previously established. You keep arguing the status "selected" does not transfer over. And by the SAME STANDARD of rules technicalities neither does "target" Otherwise you would have quoted the part saying the unit(s) covered by the template after scatter are the new target unit.

Breton wrote:
Really? No abuse in putting the template over the tactical marine standing next to the biker so the biker can't get a jink save?

As you know, we have already suggested a house rule to cover that.

And to play your scenario out, as soon as the template is over a unit of bikers, even if it doesn't scatter, you're saying they shouldn't get a chance to jink, because you've already counted the number of hits by placing the template over one.

You dont determine the number of hits until after scatter

 jokerkd wrote:

Breton wrote:
Really? No abuse in putting the template over the tactical marine standing next to the biker so the biker can't get a jink save?

As you know, we have already suggested a house rule to cover that.

I do, but that's part of what's being argued here.

You dont determine the number of hits until after scatter

But a template that doesn't scatter? You think I wasn't already adding them up in case you rolled (Hit)?

You dont know whether a blast will scatter any more than you know how many hits will be scored from 10 plasma guns.

RAI is fairly clear that you should only get the choice to jink before you know how many hits are landed

But I WOULD know how many hits you'd score if it doesn't scatter.

In other words, I have the same idea how many hits are scored when you hold the pie plate over Unit A before scatter as I would when you scatter it over Unit B.

I can call jink as you hold it over Unit A, before you roll scatter (or technically after but that's as bad as not allowing Unit B to jink in my mind)

There's no consistency to the RAI there, whether I can count while you're rolling, or while you're measuring the scatter.

What I might say is you pick a model, and don't place the template. then you roll scatter. And I declare or don't declare jink based on the dice and the model chosen having never seen the template over anything yet.

You are still required to jink at the point the target is selected.
When i choose a target that has jink, i ask at that point whether or not you will jink. That is the point you must declare or the game stops. You dont get to wait until just before i roll to hit, or until the blast has been placed. The rule says to declare when you are selected as a target.

If you think that you then have more than one opportunity to declare, (unit selected, blast placed, blast scatters) you know the argument against already. The unit has already been picked as a target before the blast is placed, and unit b was not selected as a target at all

Breton wrote:
Really? No abuse in putting the template over the tactical marine standing next to the biker so the biker can't get a jink save?

And to play your scenario out, as soon as the template is over a unit of bikers, even if it doesn't scatter, you're saying they shouldn't get a chance to jink, because you've already counted the number of hits by placing the template over one.

If you were paying attention you would see that I've come to the conclusion that placing the marker over two units is selecting both units as targets, so you're mistaken there. My only issue relating to selection now is when it scatters onto a completely different unit.

As jokerkd has pointed out, you do not count the number of hits until after rolling for scatter. Sure, as you say, you may pre-count in case it doesn't scatter, but you also seem to be claiming that knowing how many hits you score before scatter tells you how many hits you'll score after scatter, which doesn't make sense.

The part of the rules that says the target changes from the one previously established. You keep arguing the status "selected" does not transfer over. And by the SAME STANDARD of rules technicalities neither does "target" Otherwise you would have quoted the part saying the unit(s) covered by the template after scatter are the new target unit.

Given the rules clearly tell us the marker represents the taget of the shooting attack but says nothing about selecting I'm not sure how this follows. Could you please explain with rules support?

but you also seem to be claiming that knowing how many hits you score before scatter tells you how many hits you'll score after scatter, which doesn't make sense

Because I can watch the pie plate float over the tape measure to it's final resting place? It's even got demarcated lines on top to show me about how big that template will be in one direction for an easy eyeball circle.

Given the rules clearly tell us the marker represents the taget of the shooting attack but says nothing about selecting I'm not sure how this follows. Could you please explain with rules support?

If the rules for the template says nothing about selecting, it also says nothing about the models under it being the target. The blast rule says pick a target. Then scatter. It never ever ever ever says the models under the template after it scatters is the target.

"... place the 3" blast marker with it's hole over the target model, or it's hull if if the target is a vehicle" At no point in the entire rest of the rule does any other model get labeled target. In fact the only reference to target after that is to assign the results to the target. So you can count the hits on the new unit. You can even roll to wound the new unit. but you have to assign them to the target unit- The one it began over.

When i choose a target that has jink, i ask at that point whether or not you will jink. That is the point you must declare or the game stops. You dont get to wait until just before i roll to hit, or until the blast has been placed

Actually I DO get to wait until just before you roll to hit. The rules for jink is up to the point rolls to hit have been made.

The flip side of this is, you select some bikers, they jink, your shot scatters, they're no longer the target, had no reason to jink and therefore shouldn't have been able to jink, leaving us with a jinking set of bikers not being shot at by the giant ball of plasma 30 meters away, and a shot up unit of bikers that wasn't allowed to jink away from the big ball of plasma heading straight for them? So we have a Selected Non-Target, and a Non-Selected Target that way?

Breton wrote:
Because I can watch the pie plate float over the tape measure to it's final resting place? It's even got demarcated lines on top to show me about how big that template will be in one direction for an easy eyeball circle.

You seemed to be suggesting that knowing how many models are hit in unit A before rolling scatter would somehow tell you how many would be hit in unit B after rolling scatter.

If the rules for the template says nothing about selecting, it also says nothing about the models under it being the target. The blast rule says pick a target. Then scatter. It never ever ever ever says the models under the template after it scatters is the target.

"... place the 3" blast marker with it's hole over the target model, or it's hull if if the target is a vehicle" At no point in the entire rest of the rule does any other model get labeled target. In fact the only reference to target after that is to assign the results to the target. So you can count the hits on the new unit. You can even roll to wound the new unit. but you have to assign them to the target unit- The one it began over.

And you're completely ignoring what I've already quoted and referred you to at least twice from the first half of the rules for blast markers and templates, under 'General Principles'. That tells us the marker is used to represent the target of weapons which affect an area rather than just one model or unit.

Actually I DO get to wait until just before you roll to hit. The rules for jink is up to the point rolls to hit have been made.

The flip side of this is, you select some bikers, they jink, your shot scatters, they're no longer the target, had no reason to jink and therefore shouldn't have been able to jink, leaving us with a jinking set of bikers not being shot at by the giant ball of plasma 30 meters away, and a shot up unit of bikers that wasn't allowed to jink away from the big ball of plasma heading straight for them? So we have a Selected Non-Target, and a Non-Selected Target that way?

Given that no rolls To Hit are made for blast weapons, the way I see it you're entitled to hold off electing to Jink with the first unit until after scatter has been rolled.

If you want to imagine your scenario as something other than a rules abstraction, think of it as the first unit of bikers going, "Incoming frag missile! Let's dodge!" Meanwhile the second unit don't see it getting blown their way until it's too late, or something. But this is of course beside the point.

You seemed to be suggesting that knowing how many models are hit in unit A before rolling scatter would somehow tell you how many would be hit in unit B after rolling scatter.

No, I'm saying that I can look at you hold the tape measure over the table in the direction of the arrow from initial Point A, see where it hovers over Final Point B, and look at the tape measure's tick marks to have a pretty good idea how many models will be hit while you grab the template to hold over that Final Point B.

And you're completely ignoring what I've already quoted and referred you to at least twice from the first half of the rules for blast markers and templates, under 'General Principles'. That tells us the marker is used to represent the target of weapons which affect an area rather than just one model or unit.

No, I'm not, because it doesn't say that. The Blast rule itself says target model. Scatter. Count models hit. Resolve Hits. Apply results to target. The blast rule establishes a target. It never changes the target. Even Blast Markers and Templates doesn't say the unit under the template is the target. It says the "area of effect" might encompass these units, but does not say they are the target. It says you can count hits on the unit under the template. The blast rule even says you can resolve those hits against the models covered. But you apply the results to the target. Which is STILL the first model/unit covered.

The general principles section even allows these blasts don't just target a single model or unit. (emphasis mine) However the general principles doesn't tell us what it DOES target. It just says count the hits under the template. It doesn't say what to do with those hits. The Blast USR does.

So you think the first unit of bikers is going to jink the frag missile that's going to miss them by 30 meters to the right but the one watching the smoke trail headed straight for them is too dumb to do so?